Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. When I found out about today’s guests, I said, my team was snowed. What is this? Another company that’s going to teach people how to start their businesses.
And I have to be honest, I was very skeptical as I went through the site. And then. I was impressed. I thought I should have come out with this idea. This is, this is so simple, so brilliant. So elegant. Here’s what today’s guest does. He realizes that one of the big questions that people have when they’re starting a businesses, how should I, how should I even structure my business?
Do I even need an LLC? Do I need to incorporate, should it just be a partnership? They don’t even know the word sole proprietorship or the phrase, but they wonder is that enough? And so. He decided to come up with this website that not only helped them make that decision, but also make it easy for them to go and act on that decision.
So if you want to get an LLC for whatever price, your state charges, plus 35 bucks through a site, you can get it done. And the thing that he focuses on is. Making the process easy for business people to understand and writing it up in a clear way. These days also doing video, and I’m looking at your, as you’re doing this, like you’re so care about your business, that I have the sense now, Bush nugget, nugget, booze, Shannon petty, right now, caboose.
Shannon. I have this sense that you were watching me to make sure that every detail is right, cause you are that kind of anal.
Bobby: I am. I like things done in a certain way. Okay. And I don’t necessarily focus so much on the details as the approach. The approach is what matters to me
Andrew: Tell me, what do you mean by that?
Bobby: So it’s like, there’s my background as a doctor Fest. So. How do you approach a situation in an emergency? You have to develop a mental model. Okay. And how do you actually handle that situation? What should your priorities be? How should you go about thinking about something similarly in business, you have a certain mental model. Like what kind of business structure should you choose? Okay. So there’s a mental model for business. How do you succeed in business?
How should you actually go about it? And it’s that mental model trying to help users get that mental model? That’s what I try to focus on.
Andrew: Now where a lot of people are focused is in this. We think the way that you are is. What’s the right business to create, how do we give people the guidance to create their MVP? And so on, you said, I’m going to start even more basic. They want to know whether it’s an LLC or not. They need paperwork to do that.
They need, um, paperwork for their partnership. Right? And so on. I should explain that the, the business is called the really useful information company or trick for short. Right. And speaking of, for short, you prefer that I call you Bobby for short, your friends call you Bobby.
Bobby: Yes. My friends have all family, all call me Bobby.
Andrew: Your, uh, articles on your site, super clean, super well-written. And then the monetization, which you don’t focus, you don’t focus on doing the paperwork for people you say, Hey, here are two companies that we recommend. Go and use them. Right. And one of those two companies is a company. I interviewed the founder of Zen, Zen business, really new company.
They, they work well. And for you, it wasn’t enough that they were offering good affiliate payout because of, can I call you anal or you’re going to feel uncomfortable with it.
Bobby: It’s fine.
Andrew: Detail oriented I’m detail oriented. You had to go and fly into their office. Go see how they work, deal with the way that your customers were going to be handled properly.
All right, we’re going to talk about how you started this business and how the business is going and why you decided to not to not own the whole customer experience. We’re going to do it. Thanks to two phenomenal sponsors. The first. Is HostGator a company for hosting your website. If you’re out there, you should use hostgator.com/mixergy.
If you’re starting. And the second, if you have a team of people and you need to pay them, you got to go to Gusto and I’ll tell you later why you should go to gusto.com/mixergy, Bobby let’s. Let’s just give people a sense of the business. How, how big is it? What’s your revenue
Bobby: Revenue is basically we’re about $7 million now
Andrew: annually last year seven.
Bobby: year. Yes. But this year we’re going to see a massive rise.
Bobby: It’s a of content we have. So the amount of content we create basically indicates the number of visitors we’ll get to our site. So the amount of content we’re creating is far more. Now we have 20% more content than we had last year, and we’re working on a new.
Tools new example, we just created a logo maker tool to help people create a free logo from our site. We created more and more tools, which are all free on our site. So we don’t actually charge for anything on our sites. All our tools on our guides are our a hundred percent.
Andrew: I don’t even have to enter an email address to, to figure out whether I should get an LLC or not.
Bobby: that’s one of the things I don’t, I’m not here to try and put you into a funnel or anything like that. I’m here just to make the process as simple and hassle-free as possible, and we don’t sell your data. We don’t do any of that
Andrew: I wonder why I feel like you could have said to me, do you even want this whole article that you just read in a PDF so you can highlight it or read them whatever you want, enter your email address and we’ll give it to you. You could have done that. You could have said here’s the overview of what’s included here.
Give me your email at, well, I guess if you did that, if you hit too much behind an email pay an email wall, Google would penalize you and your traffic depends on Google search. Right? And so I guess you couldn’t do that. But you could create a funnel. You could be thinking throughout the article. How many times can I link people to my email, a funnel and get them in?
Why or why not?
Bobby: It’s user experience. I just want to make it clean user experience. Plus I think peop privacy is going to become more and more important to people. Other companies are going to have to adjust their business model. My business model is built around privacy. First. Everything we do, I won’t have to make drastic changes.
Andrew: Okay. I understand that. What about then instead of passing people over to Zen business, where Zen business would, um, file their LLC paperwork, why aren’t you taking on that business? Or do you think you will, at some point.
Bobby: But this way, every company does something really well. Our thing, our mission is to make information accessible, help people succeed by making information accessible and actionable, using a leverage based approach. So we want to make things accessible and actionable, and that’s what we do very well. And.
Aye filing businesses requires a new set of skills to do all of that, our new systems in place and the kinds of companies that are best suited to do that. And our other direct people to the companies that know how to do that very well. And have the users have amazing experience there.
Andrew: I do. I love the details. I can pick one big detail out and then one small detail. And then I want to get into how you built this business. Here’s one big beat detail. Everything has a cleanly written table of contents that just stays relevant, stays available so that I could dip throughout the site.
That’s one big, here’s a small one. You’ve gotten into YouTube videos where you’ll explain a YouTube video. What the different legal structures are. And I remember loving that at business classes. When I, when I took them at NYU incredibly helpful. And once you get it, you just get it. I liked that. Even the details of what’s behind the man, who’s speaking and explaining it, have been thought out, this is a nice little logo in the back.
So you see it wasn’t that you farmed this thing out. It has it just, the little details of what’s on a shelf makes sense. You’re smiling now because you care about that stuff
Andrew: and your company culture cares about that. All right. You were in the Royal air force. You just got a scholarship from them
Bobby: Yes. I got a scholarship from them.
Andrew: having to go to the Royal air force and be
Bobby: So when you’re about 17, 16 years old, you can apply for something called a flying scholarship from the Royal air force. I was seven. I was in high school, so I applied, they select a hundred people from the UK. I was one of those hundred selected. So I had a chance to get some massive experience flying.
Then it was my choice, whether I decide to join the air force, but I decided to go to medical school instead.
Andrew: What did you learn from flying? I feel like that’s a rigid discipline.
Bobby: Basically efficiency you’re in, you’re flying your life is in your hands. Okay. That kind of control, understanding discipline, knowing that you have to be aware of awareness and self discipline. You have to be very disciplined to fly. You don’t want to make mistakes. You gotta be aware thousands. Basically the big thing though, when you’re 17 years old, it’s just as an amazing adventure for me.
Andrew: I remember I had some friends over for dinner here, and I mentioned that I’d like to fly in a friend of mine said, okay, well actually he, he filed it away. And the next day I got a text message says, do you want to go flying? And I said, yeah. And it turns out we had this mutual friend who, who was a pilot and we got into his plane.
But before we did, Scott was hanging out with us, talking to us, and then he went into this. He S he stopped paying attention to us completely. He paid attention to this checklist. He stopped being the hangout, Ian Hunter that we were with in the car on the way over and became this guy who was obsessive about all the checklists and every detail.
And even when he got up in the air, he was, he was having fun. But until he went through the checklist, he zoned us all out.
Andrew: That’s the thing. You had your checklist, and even at 17, you knew you had to do it. Your life depends on it.
Andrew: What’s what’s on the checklist. What do you remember?
Bobby: I haven’t flown in the last 10 years. Fortunately you can. Huh? But it’s just everything from setting, you’re making sure your altitude settings and all of those things, cue and hedge settings for your everything. Just going through it all systematically. That’s it.
Andrew: I wonder, is that what you do now, before you publish some content on your site, before you update something, do you have a mental checklist or a fixed checklist? Are you equally checklisted at your business?
Bobby: Our team is now. I actually do very little of the actual writing or the thing I’m more with the strategy. And so. This is what I’m in a different phase of my business. I’m in the business where I’m trying to scale up massively now. So to do that, I need people who can actually execute things, think strategically think very, you know, on their feet, solve the problems for themselves.
So I’m now in the process of trying to teach them the skills to do it.
Andrew: How do you do that? How do you make sure that they, that they think in that strategic way, but also bring back the discipline that you bring to everything.
Bobby: I guess I kind of break it down an example. The three things we’re trying to really teach everyone. One is attentive, focus, spots, the things that other people are missing spot, the things that help you identify the patterns, recognize the patterns. And for that you really need attentive, focus on something.
Then the next thing is you need to start over. Understand you got, Oh, you seen the patterns you see in all of this, what’s the information you gained from that. Then using that information, you have to develop a vision of how things can go and how things can flow. And you have to do up the vision of your plan.
Once you developed a vision. The next thing you need to do is be able to get people to cooperate with you to execute that vision. So that’s really, it, it tend to focus. Developing the vision and then getting people to cooperate. That’s the three skills and that’s basically where I’m trying to teach my team.
Andrew: I remember asking Russell Brunson, the founder of ClickFunnels, why he, why he uses a word like secret to tell his team that he has a plan. And he says, I have to get them excited about the plan and what I. This was he’s using the same type of persuasion skills that he might use an online copy or in a speech that he gives to get his teams.
Like what do you use to get your team psyched up and to get them to take action?
Bobby: See the potential of something. They can see the potential and something that they do can have a massive impact and conveying that to them, you know? And then they say, wow, I just did this. Okay. And they can see the results for them.
Andrew: Do you have an example in my mind goes to two big things, but maybe there’s a small example that you can give me of how them knowing that the significance matters.
Bobby: business ideas was a project we wanted to execute. Yeah. And
Andrew: is the business. It’s the business idea generator that’s on your site.
Bobby: yeah, but we also have about 700. That tool is created from the fact that we have a sort of database of about 760 business ideas. And so the first thing we do is we come up with the seed song and a project and the seed song was essentially helping entrepreneurs find the business idea that best fits them, huh.
To helping them. Okay. That’s really it. That was a simple seat’s on helping business idea entrepreneurs find the business idea that best fits them.
Andrew: What’s the phrase that you used. That’s a simple seed song.
Bobby: A seed song. So every project we do, like trig is helping people succeed by making information accessible and actionable using a leverage based approach.
Andrew: I hear you right? Seed song
Bobby: yeah, we call it, this is a seed, it’s a foundation of which everything grows from
Andrew: And why the song? Why? S O N G after that?
Bobby: because yeah, you have to do it in a way that’s phrased so that people understand
Andrew: Ah, so it’s not enough to put a seed in my brain about what I need to do. It has to be communicated in like a song in some way. That’s catchy that
Bobby: And you can memorize it,
Andrew: connected to and I can memorize. Okay. Got it.
Bobby: that’s it. And so at that point, every project. So if it’s not related to your seed song, you exclude it from your project. It’s like outside of the scope and you push it away.
Andrew: Got it.
Bobby: It helps people keep focused on everything. And so we do that. And so we understood that that was his thing.
And now he w I kind of mentioned, Hey, we can really do this. We’d have more people forming LLCs, because we realized 90% of the people coming to our site. Won’t actually forming a company.
Andrew: because they didn’t have an idea. They were just trying, they
Bobby: we’re just window shopping. Yeah.
Andrew: how do you even know that if you don’t have an ongoing relationship with your audience, how do you know that they’re just window shopping?
Bobby: I guess I go by intuition a lot and which is not very, but so I made, I made that assessment and then we came up with a strategy and then we had a team. We gave them a seed song and then they just executed this. And now we have about 20, 30,000 visitors a day coming, purely to find a business idea from our website.
Andrew: All right. I can understand that. I do see this, the importance of that, you know, let me go back a little bit. The reason that you founded this business is because of something that happened to you at Sagara. What is Sagara.
Bobby: That was my very first company. I started when I came to the USA and when I was starting that I had no idea how to. Do anything, because remember I wasn’t from the USA, UK, that’s in the UK originally. Okay. And so I didn’t know how to start a business. I didn’t understand a lot of the things you take for granted and you understand inherently.
I didn’t understand. Okay. And so I had to figure out all, what are the business structures available to me in America and things like that and everything I learned. Well, that information wasn’t out there, actually, it was very, very hard to get that information. This was 2008
Andrew: And you couldn’t even Google, what kind of companies should I create in 2008?
Bobby: It was very hard to find that information. It was an example. There are a lot of sites. Now. We were actually the very first site to actually outline all the steps to do it clearly. Then everyone else started copying us.
Andrew: it. All right. I do understand that it was, it was complicated. You didn’t fully understand it. And then when you did understand it, you drove where to start to create your LLC.
Bobby: I wasn’t sure I got the process. Correct. So I actually drove all the way to lamps thing from Ann Arbor. Okay. And actually went to the business formation plays, Laura. I can ask them, is this exactly what I need to do? And they said, yes, I was shocked. It was that simple. And why were companies charging $600
Andrew: Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Got it. Okay.
Bobby: basically made me say, Hey, I’m going to just put this information out there to help other entrepreneurs. Okay.
Andrew: up blog.
Bobby: Yep. Uh, I just left it like that and I updated it every single time. I learned something new about doing business. I put it up on the site and I tried to make everything systematic.
Andrew: What was the original idea for Sagara? Am I pronouncing right?
Bobby: Yeah. Uh, so it, soccer seed song was improving health and raising consciousness. So, so we wanted to figure out example when I was a doctor, you saw a lot of people with, um, medical problems and you give them. Pill for the blood pressure. And they have to keep on taking that medication every single day. Huh.
And the day after six years after they stopped taking the pill, the blood pressure goes right back up. So all you’re doing is treating Simpsons. You’re not treating the underlying cause and it’s basically most of our diseases are diseases of lifestyle. And so we wanted to create simple ways to basically modify disease.
And one of the things I really did focus on was blood pressure. And I figured if you could reduce the, what you call stress in someone’s life or show them how to manage it better. And breathing is one of the very simple techniques for doing that. If you can slow down your breathing to about. Five to seven breaths per minute.
And you can do that for 15 minutes a day. Your blood pressure will come down naturally and stay down. So we were creating apps to do that.
Andrew: to help people just reduce their blood pressure by breathing better.
Bobby: It’s very simple. It’s a very simple strategy. Okay.
Andrew: You know, what end you, you, when you told our producer about all the things that happen from bad stress that people just live with, it made me take a moment to just analyze my own life. I don’t think I’m stressed. But it’s very possible that I’ve got this underlying amount of stress that I just accept and I don’t pay attention to, and it’s not big stress.
Like, how am I going to feed my family? It’s small stress. Like. Uh, I didn’t respond to Aaron from KIPP camp yesterday and I should have, and that eats away at me in a way that it shouldn’t. I forgot to follow up with Sachit Gupta who works with us. And that woke me up in the middle of the night at two o’clock last night.
And, and so what are the problems? What are the results of that? What’s the danger in my life for having that underlying stress.
Bobby: So when you do, when you handle that kind of stress, it changes everything in your body. Okay. There are hormones to secrete the way your body heals, the way your, uh, so harm. Basically the autonomic nervous system. It affects autonomic nervous system and it increases sympathetic output. It. Basically, sorry, I wasn’t really prepared for this kind of talk, talking about soccer.
So I got to go through
Bobby: Yeah. So anyway, but that hasn’t a massive impact on your immune system, your aging process, your cardiovascular health. So it affects all of those diabetes. All of these things get affected by stress. And it reduces your lifespan and increases the chance of you having chronic disease increases.
All of these are the problems with stress, but if you can reduce your breathing rate to about five to 10 breaths per minute, and you can do that for 15 minutes a day. You naturally calm down breathing is the one thing that’s under both autonomic control and voluntary control. And by voluntarily slowing down your breathing rate, you modify your autonomic nervous system.
You’re just as sympathetic output and increase the parasympathetic output.
Andrew: Okay, so this was your, sorry, go ahead.
Bobby: yeah, so that was basically the basis of Sabra to basically show people that using simple techniques to improve their lifestyle.
Andrew: So this was your idea. You created an app. It was downloaded how often.
Bobby: We had over four or 5 million downloads,
Andrew: That seems like a huge winner.
Bobby: but I didn’t know how to monetize it. Remember I had a model for medicine and how to do that, but I didn’t have the business model then. And so. I actually spread myself too thin. I try to do too many things. We created breathing apps, diet apps, uh, exercise apps. I didn’t focus on when in one area,
Andrew: Why, why did you do all these different apps?
Bobby: because if you really want to improve your health, you have to do four areas, diet breathing, um, Exercise on mindfulness.
You see, those are the four areas I wanted to focus on as I was creating those four apps and those things, then we did it in, when I iOS, we did them on Android, we did them on PC. Then we did them in multiple languages. Then we tried to create a subscription system for them. And so then we went after corporate health and wellness programs, and that was my biggest mistake.
Andrew: No. Why was that the big miss? The even bigger mistake than not focusing on one of the apps? Why was that? It.
Bobby: Well, that’s the biggest mistake because I knew how to reach consumers. When you were going after companies, like we had JP Morgan chase wanting to evaluate our apps. We had Huawei in China wanting to do this, but when you go after all these companies, you need a lot more resources. They want the, what you call the analytics, how often people are using.
Then they want to show that your apps are actually changing outcomes. And that’s not only, we were entirely geared up because we were always thinking about privacy. Okay. So you kind of put me in there. Okay. That really did bite me back there. Okay. But, um, then we’re building out systems. If you are a company and you wanted a hundred thousand employees to be using our apps and whatever device, they had an Android phone, iOS, PC Mac, whatever we could make that happen.
And so I was. Focused on. We had to build out all our technology. We were doing that, but the sales cycles for two years, And I didn’t have the revenue to sustain myself for that length of time. Our burn rate was increasing. Then about five years ago, I realized it was the end of the road. I couldn’t meet payroll.
And so I was able to borrow some money. And I basically said to my team, this is it. Here’s the money for a month. Then it was just me and my CTO and my CEO, three of us.
Andrew: Starting brand new. And now this thing that was a blog was going to become this business that I’m here to interview about. Trick. Let me take a moment to talk about my first sponsor, and then I want to find out what, what you felt before you made that transition. I’m also, I’ve got a note here about how you, you borrowed the money from an entrepreneur.
Why did this entrepreneur lend you money when things weren’t working out? But first I should tell people, my first sponsor is HostGator. One of the things that’s inspiring to me about your story, Bobby, is that you just said, I know this stuff, I’m going to publish it online for other people to find. And you were just doing it to help people and look at how it became this huge business for yourself.
That’s changing your life and changing millions of other people’s lives, who are connected with the site. I bet that there’s someone who’s in our audience right now who has something that they’re working on. They might. He putting it into, um, into a doc on their phone, on their computer, whatever. And imagine if they would say, you know, instead of making it just available for myself, I’m just gonna put it on a webpage.
What do you think of that? Right. Just put it on a webpage. What do you think.
Bobby: That’s actually one of the YouTube videos, we’re about to release saying what’s the best business idea that entrepreneurs should start. What should be his first business idea? And I was thinking a problem they had to solve for themselves.
Andrew: And just as you’re thinking it through, put it online because when other people are looking at your solution, even if they’re not really paying attention, you feel held accountable. And so you make the, you make the information a little bit clearer to explain to them, but really you’re actually making it more, more accessible to yourself.
You’re more likely to act on it. And you’re more likely to see the value of it when you share it with the world, because someone’s going to contact you and say, that’s the thing I was looking for right now. You
Bobby: other than that, you actually understand who needs that information, who needs a product or whatever,
Andrew: just that they evaluate, but who’s out there.
Bobby: Therefore, you understand how to, who needs a different, you understand the customer much better. And there are a lot of skills to be an entrepreneur and you have to do all of those things, but if you already understand how to market it, because you already understand who needs it, then that makes your life a lot easier.
And so you’re more likely to succeed with that.
Andrew: I’m going to say this. If you’re out there and you have some kind of skill, something that you’re learning right now, something that you’ve just learned, go to hostgator.com/mixergy, start a site. It really, I promise it’ll take you five minutes to have your site domain and everything up and running. Don’t get carried away with a nice design.
That’s what I did. It’s a big distraction. Just pick a design that’s clear, and one that’s included for free with your package and just start explaining what you know, and even put this disclaimer that I saw, this one listener of mine put up, he said, look, I’m just thinking this through. And you’ll see the site editing in real time because I’m thinking it through right now.
So you don’t even have to promise perfection. You’re just saying, I’m thinking it through and you’re coming along to watch me. And then when you feel good about it, get rid of that. I’m thinking through, because now you’ve got something and see who reacts. And this could be anything. If you’re a great at sleeping, just putting your checklist for how you sleep.
If you’re trying to figure it out. Put down what you’ve learned, if you’re somebody who’s great at, um, uh, my, one of my things now is camping. If you know how to freaking figure out what I should have for camping, put that up on your website, I will value it. If you’re a great reader, explain to us how to read faster and absorb more information and take better notes, whatever it is, go take it to hostgator.com/mixergy, because when you do, you’re going to be part of this family of companies.
What’s the parent company called endurance, right? Wait, hugely successful company been around forever. People will tell me, I don’t like HostGator. I like this other one. Guess what? This other one I’m going to say. It’s a, what is it? A blue, blue hose to go. I like blue hose and said, I like this. They own it.
It’s all the same freaking company. It’s just a different name. They kind of, I feel like also what they do, Bobby, there is they have these different companies so that they have each person has more responsibility and maybe competes against each other, but they’re selling the same great hosting package different anyway, guys, it just works.
Don’t get carried away with which hosting company you should get. Get one that works, focus on your content and then see what response you get from people. All right. That’s hostgator.com/mixergy, great hosting package inexpensive. And if you throw that slash Mixergy at the end, you’ll get a great price and I’ll get a Pat on the back from Matt over there.
Who’s, uh, my champion at HostGator and I appreciate them sponsoring. Okay. Who’s the entrepreneur who lends you money when the thing wasn’t working.
Bobby: Basically, I went to a meetup and he was there and, uh, basically it was a loan to help me, basically, I use the money essentially to pay the severance. Paid to my team. And I told them I had my other company trick. I was going to focus on. Then I could use that money to the revenue from that to pay him off.
And we kind of did a revenue based financing deal and
Andrew: paying them based on the revenue that you’re going to generate from Troy.
Bobby: Yes. And I, I haven’t asked Beth if I could use his name out there, so I don’t want to
Andrew: But what type of entrepreneur would give, give you money when your business failed for just interest, instead of saying, Hey, you know what, let me fund this new business and use the money any way you want or tell you what closes this other companies are. You have a problem with those. You don’t like any of those options.
You’re disgusted by I’m even suggesting them as questions.
Bobby: Because he was a really good friend. Okay. And he enabled me to do the right thing for my team and my employees. So that was great. And I really did appreciate it a lot. And he trusted me that I was going to be here. I have the resources to pay him back. And I had that thinks to do that too. That was it.
Andrew: I wonder when things weren’t working for you when you couldn’t make payroll, humanized yourself a little bit. Tell me about what it’s like for Bobby. When Bobby’s feeling up against the wall. I can’t believe it. I’m a failure
Bobby: Right. Tell me about it. I left medicine. Okay. I was no longer a doctor. I was like, my business had failed. That was a very low point in my life. That was about five years. Again. Five six years ago. And I was like, what do I do? And I was able to do the right thing for my team and I felt okay, fine. That was established, but it was very sad.
It was. It’s almost like if there was a death in the family or something like that. For me, it was like so much energy, so much effort had gone in and I was having to let go of everything. Now it was quite a painful time for me and a very, very difficult time. But the reason why I decided to carry on and do trick and focusing now is because it was a period of great self examination actually, because.
I had to understand why I failed. What was it about me that led me to fail? I had to understand that I had to think it through and I realized the biggest lesson for me. It was like a focus. That was the problem. I was arrogant and I did not focus enough. And I had to basically work on myself first and really, really think through that.
And. Not just say, I’m going to be what you call more focused and less arrogant. I actually have to really think about set procedures in place every single day to examine that, to make sure I was going in the right direction.
Andrew: what kind of procedures would you set in place for that?
Bobby: Right. Things out at the end of each day.
Andrew: Write things out at the end of each day?
Bobby: Yeah, what did I do? How could I’ve improved that, examine it each day and write it out, sort of sort of journaling kind of technique, huh. Then at the start of each day, uh, meditation really, really focused meditation and that was it.
Andrew: Why meditation at the start of the day, not journaling also at the start about what you want to do, why or something else that’s more visible.
Bobby: Basically, I want to focus on myself and improve my own thing. It’s not all about business and clearing my head and helps me to think better. Helps me to become more creative. I realized my creativity is so much better. If I meditate fast on my problem, solving skills are so much better on journaling is great for.
Analyzing things. Okay. And seeing what I did and for analytical stuff, but really for me too, I think that really deep change comes from me meditating.
Andrew: And when, how does meditating help you be. Able to solve a problem better.
Bobby: to explain an example. When I meditate dancers come to me, it’s more inspiration. Okay. I’d rather than an analytics. That’s the thing I find, I don’t know how to explain it. When I have a problems in my head, I decided I’m going to totally ignore them. I just focus on my breathing. I do that for half an hour.
Usually I haven’t answered by the end of that. I’m not even thinking about it.
Andrew: Do you sometimes find that in the middle, you have an answer and you want to stop in meditating and go write it down.
Bobby: No, I can usually remember
Andrew: You just remember
Bobby: say, I’m going to focus on this and just keep focusing on the meditation because the day will happen anyway, then as the day. Okay. And I don’t need to do it there. And then,
Andrew: What’s your meditation practice.
Bobby: so I use a combination of breathing techniques, mudras, and chanting to focus my mind. So the first thing I’ll do is I’ll use yoga like Surya namaskara yoga. So physical exercise helps me to improve the focus. Okay. Stop my mind wandering. Then I’ll do the breathing techniques that increase, enhances the level of focus.
Then I will do what you call some sort of Joppa training. So chanting. Okay. Uh, vocalization attentive virtualization. So that helps my mind stay in one place in a deep level and just keep chanting that way. And that really makes a big impact example. There’ve been studies showing that attentive, chanting, like focus meditation actually increases the amount of gray matter in your brain, et cetera.
After a unit short period of six weeks. No, they’ve done MRI scans before and after it increases the, what you call connection between both hemispheres increases the size of that, and also reduces your amygdala, your fear responses shrink.
Andrew: It’s the beads on your arm. Sorry, I’m taking, if you saw me for a second space out, I had to go and write a note on what you’re saying. Yeah. What are the beads on your arms?
Bobby: Okay. And so that’s more to do with my spiritual practice and I have those there on my arms to remind me of the way to behave on my values every single day. That’s the reason. So I use those as a reminder that everything I do each day, it’s. It’s not about any one thing. There’s a more spiritual thing there.
Okay. And so it’s more of my life’s values and just a reminder
Andrew: keep, you know what I have to say to you? I was worried when I first found out about your business, that you were going to be some kind of business guru who would tell people exactly how to make a lot of money if they paid you even a lot of money too. And then I discovered no, it’s much more practical than that.
It’s what do you, how do you get your logo? How do you get your LLC filed? And I thought, Oh, good. And now as I’m hearing you talk, I think I want him to be more of a guru. I want to see more about how he runs his business, how he structures it. I want to hear more about the, uh, what’s the, the seed song. I want to hear more of those types of ideas from
Bobby: I know we’re going into that. So we’ve been focusing a lot of high to content and now I’m really, we’re shifting our thing into the mental model, figuring out how to think about it. What are the things you should think about when you do a business, how do you evaluate a business? How do you grow? And this is the stuff then the last year and a half that I’ve been really focused on.
And since then we’ve been growing quite exponentially. So I’m kind of, it’s been really good for us. It’s working for us and we knew that we can work for other people.
Andrew: Let’s go back to how you started. So you said I’m pivoting, I’m starting from scratch. I have to focus on my meditation in the morning, journaling at night, keep improving. What’s the first thing that you did when you decided you were going to focus on truism for the business? I mean, what’d you do? Okay.
Bobby: Basically, we just really looked at the content. And for the first couple of years, we just really figured out how to make a better and better. And there’s actually one thing though, that really helped me grow a lot. I had an email saying, Hey, I like to buy your website. I said, okay, this guy, by this time I was catching on to the fact that we were onto a good thing here.
Okay. And I thought, okay. Nope. Okay. No shit Sherlock. Okay. And I said, okay, fine. I know, I wouldn’t know how to respond to that email. Okay. But in this case, uh, something about it. So I just responded to the email. Then we got chatting. I offered to buy him. I’d.
Andrew: Because he was in a similar business.
Bobby: Exactly. Here’s a competitor. Okay. And then he, basically, we wrote, we had a lot in common and our reasons for starting it out were very similar.
And so then he told me about another entrepreneur and then we all just got on Skype and started chatting and we realized, Hey guys, why don’t you come over to Ann Arbor? And they all flew to Ann Arbor and we spent two weeks. Yeah. And we spent two weeks just. Talking about our business. And then I should pick guys when I did this, I double my traffic and they told me when I did this, I doubled my revenue and we just learned from each other and we shared it.
Okay. We understood we’d be competitors, but we also understood that this isn’t the only thing we’re going to be doing. And the more we can learn to be good friends and learn from each other, we grow. And that was one of the biggest keys to our growth. That being, not being, being, not being afraid to share and actually just learning from each other that really drove up our growth massively.
Andrew: One of the things that you taught them was how to grow traffic based on how you did it. And they taught you about the affiliate program, uh, techniques that they were using. What did you teach them? What was working for you at that time in your business?
Bobby: Okay. I think as CTA is going to get very upset about this biggest thing we realized was the speed of the website makes such a big difference. Like when we had our servers, our traffic in California, I traffic in California, massively increased. One I had, I was, then we moved our service to Florida. Then on traffic in Florida, went up four-fold okay.
Then we realized this is really a big thing. So now we use this urinary. We have about 20 servers all around the world. Okay. Based on geographical region, things like that. And we realized the tech infrastructure really makes a big difference to your traffic.
Andrew: That. Okay. What, give me one other one. This is, this is significant. What else? What else helped you get traffic back then?
Andrew: Oh, good. I want you to get to feel, I want you to feel a little bit like it’s going to get you in trouble because that’s when you bring out something meaningful and that’s when people really feel helped and, and,
Bobby: I know, I know. Um, whereas you’re writing guides to explain all of this. Anyway, the other thing is meet the intent of the user. Okay. What is the user looking for example? Uh, our website is. You Googled Texas, LLC. Okay. Then you’ll see us in the results and you click on us. And the very first thing you see is how to form an LLC in Texas.
That’s the title of the page. There’s nothing complicated. Instantly. The user recognizes they are where they should be. Then we show we’ll show you how to form an LLC in Texas in a few easy steps, that’s it. They recognize where they are. And so the bounce rate goes really low down. There’s nothing complicated.
Keep it really simple. Okay. Don’t overthink the thing. What is the one thing you’re trying to let the user know and put that message out there in a very simple way.
Andrew: Sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Bobby: The next thing is context. Ah, so example, if you look at what is in the eye and or something like that, you’ll see our pay gin. So I give context and I’ll show you how to get an EIN number, but a lot of people don’t, you know, what an EIN number is. And all these signs explained in a very difficult way. And I realized that.
So when you give context, think about a user on dude from where they are. So EIN number is like a social security number for your company. Okay. So the understand what a social security number is. Yeah. And so now you’re using what they already know. We use that and we do that in the context text. So we try and take the fear out saying you already understand a bit of this and we’ll show you how to do it in a few steps.
So that’s the kind of thing we kind of really focus on and doing the simple things. The other thing is you need to be his GTPS okay. If you’re not Hirsch TTPs. Okay. You’re going to get dinged for that. You need to have his GGB two, which is. Uh, you can download your images in parallel. So when you use a CDN, you need to make sure that you CDN support says she’s a GP to most websites do.
Okay. I’m not sure the website builders too. That’s the thing. And so that’s why, if you, you said HostGator and all those guys, if you’d used WordPress and all that, you can set up HTTP too. That’s the other
Andrew: As opposed to by website builders, you’re talking about Squarespace and all these companies that make it easier to start a site, but not this.
Bobby: Yes, basically the speed enhancements are going to be slow and that’s basically what’s happening like Google. And then from April onwards is really going to focus on speed and the user experience. Like if you’ve got a lot of apps on your side and if your site is slow and everything you’re going to give really faced major penalties, then the other thing.
Andrew: Oh, I’m not going to interrupt if you have more, give me more.
Bobby: enough. The other thing you need to do is get backlinks and you need to. Just post, get your name out there. Like I’m doing okay. There are selfish reasons for all this. Okay. So that all helps. That all helps to actually raise your credibility. And so, but that’s all what you call the. See, some of this stuff creates a great user experience and, but a lot of people have realized, Oh, this is just purely focused on the tactics.
Like backlinks. It’s all about backlinks. It isn’t trying to create worthwhile content. They just focus on pure SEM.
Andrew: And you’re saying, look, yes, SEO, but bring it back to user experience and let me bring it back to user experience for a moment before I go into the affiliate, one of the things that I said I liked about. Your site was you take complicated subjects and you keep them simple. I you’re, you’re noticing I’m using the Apple pencil.
I’m really into my iPad. I think you’re you ha hold yours up for a moment. I’m so into this stuff that I, at times I just go on Reddit and look at iPad, the iPad section, and I’ll see medical students show their notes on their iPad to sh because they just want to show how the app, the apps that they’re using are helping them stay more organized.
And what I noticed was medical school, especially are really good at having. Clean notes. That make sense, even to a layman like me, but have a lot, but they’re data Richmond organized. That’s how you got to it. That’s where you learn to do this to take good notes. How, what is it that you learn as a medical student that allows you to express yourself?
So cleanly? So well.
Bobby: You have a lot of information to learn as a medical student, you’ve got tremendous amounts of information to learn. And I actually did the way, uh, the guides, the way I actually created my notes in university. I want context. I want to understand what I’m about to learn in every paragraph. And so, um, I want to know what’s important information.
Why am I learning this? And that’s, I kind of want to make it very scannable. That’s the kind of thing. So everything we did on our website is basically what I learned to make, make sure that process for learning information was very quick and easy. So I didn’t have to spend 10 hours learning something I could learn in half an hour.
Andrew: Also like it’s, it’s the headings, it’s the, the clear pointers to what you need. So you can scan out by just looking big picture and then easily know where your eyes should land.
Bobby: Anything important should never be hidden in a giant paragraph. Like our texts, our paragraphs are only three or four sentences. Ah, that’s I try to keep, Nope, no paragraph more than three sentences. You see? I want it to be clear. We, you have things like we. Like straight ratio like that, that the size of the length of the line to the size of the characters, all of that is thought through so that everything is aesthetically pleasing and easy to understand.
Andrew: Now I’m actually scrolling through your content with renewed understanding of what’s going on on it. All right. Let me take a moment to talk about my second sponsor. And then I want to come back and find out what you learned about affiliate programs that helped your, your revenue grow. You were doing just a few thousand bucks a month.
I think if that, before you, you, these meetups and then things shout up. My second sponsor is a company called Gusto for paying your people. Are you thinking about adding this type of section to your site?
Bobby: Uh, we actually use gusta ourselves
Andrew: do. What do you like about Gusto? Why do you use Gusto?
Bobby: simplicity, and we can just manage it online and it’s easy to do and our team does it. So that’s why.
Andrew: You know what I’ve said right there. Anyone else who wants to use it, go use it. They’ll give you three months for free. You’ve heard so many people who I’ve interviewed have used Gusto, and you should at least try them out. And if you’re going to make the switch now January, 2021 is the time to do it.
Meaning get started now and have a much better year paying your people. And frankly, Give them a good experience when they’re getting paid. Go to gusto.com/mixer, G G U S T o.com/m I N E R G Y. gusto.com/mixergy. What did you learn about affiliate programs that helped you grow your revenue?
Bobby: Helped me grow my revenue. It was finding the right affiliate is the most important thing. That’s the thing. So I don’t see, we had such scale, large scale that we can drive thousands of conversions. For users, like for every 10 people who come to our website and form an LLC, uh, one person or two people would probably want a service to do it for them.
They want convenience. And so this basically means that we have such a large scale that we can actually go to the companies and negotiate. We have a lot of people. Okay. And so that enabled me to basically get a better deal for our users. So, so when I do a deal,
Andrew: just, I want more money for referring a user, but I want them to have a bigger discount.
Bobby: So, yeah. So when I ran over, I do a deal, has to have three components. So all the parties must win. So in that case, we have three parties in our, in any deal. We do, we have our users, we have ourselves and we have the service provider. Our users basically save time on, they save money because we negotiate a discount for them.
Okay. So they save time and money. The service provider, he wins because he gets a large number of customers and they reduced their marketing costs. And we went because, um, we basically get the affiliate fee. Okay. So we, all three parties went on for that. That makes a deal sustainable. Then the next thing is for a deal to be massively scalable, the proportions I, which everybody wins must be good.
And then the deal can be massively scalable. And that’s what we kind of discovered.
Andrew: Have to be good. What do you mean by the proportions? Have to be good.
Bobby: So example, uh, it can’t just be a small discount for the user. It can’t just be a, you know, if I did everything so that our commission was much larger than everything else of the expense of getting a better discount for the customer, then our users wouldn’t necessarily find our site to be valuable. So you see, there has to be a, you have to get the right proportions and we have to get enough revenue so that we can actually start developing more tools, more content and everything like that, and provide better value for our users. So those are, you got to get the balancing act, right?
Andrew: I didn’t form an LLC in Delaware for this company. All my other companies, always in Delaware, actually the first version of mixer D was in Delaware. I went to the bank to open up an account. They said, sorry, California requires us to have your account here or fill out this extra pay. I said, Enough said no more paperwork.
I went and I had it redone, close the other company. What, what’s the deal with Delaware? Did I make a mistake? And how do I deal with the, with the banks? Do you know this stuff or is it, are you too far removed from it now? You do.
Bobby: this is one of the questions we get asked, where should I form an LLC? And the simplest answer is you should form an LLC in the state. You’re doing business in. Okay. So if you’re in California, you should form the LLC in California. If you’re in Texas, you formality in Texas. If you’re in Michigan, you should form the LLC in Michigan.
Why would you form it? If you’re a corporation and things like that, and you’re going to get investors, then Delaware would be the best place to do it because they understand business law is very streamlined and you’re going to get professional investors on. They want to know how to do it. And so if you’re forming a corporation at that point, Delaware would be the idea, but for most small businesses, That does not apply the 19th Santa Fe entrepreneurs should form an LLC in the state you’re located in, and you’re doing businesses because if I have to say our LLC is formed in Michigan, huh?
Because we have offices, we have offices here. We have do all of that stuff here. But now if I’m say I want a form in Wyoming. Okay. And I in Wyoming, because they got better privacy laws or whatever, you’re gay. And then I. But I am conducting business in Michigan. I’ll still have to register as a foreign LLC in Michigan, and I’ll still have to pay the same paperwork and still all the tax liability.
So now I have to register it. I’ve now maintaining an LLC. And
Bobby: so it doesn’t make any sense.
Andrew: because if you’re getting funding, if you’ve got professional investors, they’re going to insist on Delaware. They’re the ones who are most vocal about what to do. And then the rest of us think we have to always form a Delaware company.
Bobby: but that’s a few going after VC capital and all of that stuff. And then this is the difference. What structure should you choose? Did you choose an LLC? Should you choose a corporation? Should you be a sole proprietor? Ah, then how should you be taxed? Should we tax as a partnership? Should it be taxed as an S-corp?
These are the decision-making things. And we have an article on how to choose a business structure on our site
Andrew: I read it. And I like that. You just start off by saying, look for most people, it’s going to be an LLC. I like that. You just give me the bottom line and then let’s understand the whole concept. Okay. So now you and these other entrepreneurs are talking through your businesses. You’re starting to learn from them.
You’re you understand that they’re more affiliates that you could work with, that you can negotiate with them directly. And now your revenue goes from what? A few thousand dollars a month to tens of thousands a month. Is that what I’m talking about?
Bobby: Pretty much. And, uh, then I realized as our volume is going up and we were able to all get the same deal because now there are three companies
Andrew: Ah, now you’re negotiating together. Can you say who they are? Can you tell us who one of them is? Oh, okay. All right. So you were talking about real direct competitors, and instead of saying, we’re going to slug it out, it’s we’re going to partner up.
Bobby: Well, we each have our own different approach. Every one of us has got very different approaches to it. And that’s the thing it’s like, we bring in our own our own values and our own style to it. So some people would like my, the way I present information, some people will like the way he presents information.
So we understood that. Huh. But you’re right. We do our direct competitors and many keywords and everything.
Andrew: Yeah. And, um, I like how, because I read through your site, I understand that having university in his company name could end up being a problem for him. Right. It’s something that you’ve got to consider that it takes a little bit longer.
Bobby: I think it worked for him.
Andrew: No, no, no. I mean, sorry. It takes a little bit longer. There’s more, more of a process with the States to get, I think you said university.
Um, what are the other ones? I forget. I know, I can’t say the word bank attorney, unless there certain
Bobby: Oh, yes. And actually forming a company, you mean?
Andrew: Informing bunny. There is, there are more stops if you call yourself a university. It’s not that you can’t do it. It’s just that it’s something you have to be aware of potentially causing a delay.
Bobby: Potentially, but I think he got away with it.
Andrew: Yeah, no it’s working. I’m not, I’m not going to a site and confusing him with an actual university.
Bobby: No, no, but he’s, he’s, his content is amazing as well.
Andrew: Yeah, I think you also said you can’t make it. So people are confused about whether you’re a government agency and you give a couple of different government agencies. Right. Which kind of reminded me about FedEx, about how he got away with it, right.
That he called himself federal express. So that people think that it’s a federal government agency. Of course it’s now FedEx. All right. So now the business has started to grow. You went back and rehired, almost every single person who you had to lay off in the previous business, which makes me wonder why there, I would have thought it would be two different skillsets.
Is this just you saying I’ve got to be a good person? I feel bad for letting them go and bring them back, or was there really an overlapping and needed skills?
Bobby: Basically, it’s a lot of overlap, overlapping skills. That was the thing where essentially everyone thinks we’re just a blogging site. We’re not really a blog site where it’s actually a tech company. Okay. And a lot of what we do is technology based. Okay. We have project managers. And a lot of the team, we’re all tech guys.
Okay. And so designers, uh, would you call video people, audio people, because all of those things now we’re actually, we’re using in our YouTube videos, et cetera. There’s a lot of overlapping skills and plus I trusted them. I know them and I trust them.
Andrew: W I’m looking you up as we’re talking and I keep looking up true. If nothing comes up and then I realize no, your site is on how to start an llc.com. Not true.com. What’s the deal you pivoting to just calling yourself Troy.
Bobby: I want trick to be the brand. How does start analyses too limiting in itself? Because that was one of the things that helped me succeed very fast. Yeah. Because it’s very precise, but how does start announcing they actually shows you how to start everything from a corporation, DBA, nonprofit, all of that.
And I don’t want to be limited just to the United States either. And
Andrew: It is not even the turk.com site. Doesn’t it redirect
Bobby: No, it doesn’t. You got to treat.com. It has its own page and everything. And depending upon what action you want to take, it tells you where to go.
Andrew: And it seems to take me back and forth. Got it. And then the traffic on true is not very high, which is why I couldn’t see it on similar web. But when I put in how to start an llc.com, I’m seeing some of your traffic. And so, and so that’s where I go to social. And 84% of your social comes from YouTube.
That is an intentional, why did you pick YouTube as the place to focus?
Bobby: It’s the second largest search engine.
Andrew: And so people are searching for an answer versus.
Andrew: it versus Instagram where they’re just
Bobby: LLC. You’ll see. Trick is pretty much our Florida LLC or Michigan, LLC, whatever state you’ll see it. All our videos are number one, right?
Andrew: Got it. And it’s driving traffic to you. I was trying to see what you do. You have links in the description and then the first pin comment often will say, here’s, here’s what you need to know
Bobby: Yes, exactly.
Andrew: how much you doing, not all the production in house. It seems like it,
Bobby: everything is in house. Okay. We have a team of about 10 or 12 people in the YouTube team video team. So now we’re going on to Amazon prime. We’re going on to a Roku, all of that stuff. We’re trying to get onto more and more platforms.
Andrew: You mentioned, uh, let’s just close it out by asking about where you’re from. You mentioned that you’re from the UK, you grew up in Northern Ireland. How did your family end up in Northern Ireland? Why there.
Bobby: What and India and my dad was a doctor there. And when we were six years old, he got an offer to become a doctor in the UK. And it was meant to be Liverpool. But I think at the last minute it got changed and it was Northern Ireland. And so. Basically, they just six. I left from India to Northern Ireland.
Andrew: how was that transition for you?
Bobby: Very, very challenging. I was just saying, Hey, but I learned to speak English in India. Then I went to school, me and my sister. Then we came back home and said, mom, they don’t speak English here.
Andrew: because you couldn’t understand their dialect,
Andrew: the accent. Why was it difficult for you? Was it because you were different in a place where unlike Queens, where I grew up, where everyone was from another country, that’s what it was. You were one of
Bobby: Basically was the only Brown people in the entire time.
Andrew: Was it easy to date was easy to make best friends considering that you’re
Bobby: I don’t get friends and I had amazing friends and there were amazing people there. Yeah. But it was challenging again. And. Hey, give me a sort of empathy for a lot of people. Okay. I’m minorities. And you do FA I did face racism. I did face all of those things there, and that was a challenging aspect of it, but it also gives me, it makes you stronger there, it gives you a better perspective on things and it basically, I’m not shrinking violet put it that way.
I can stand up for myself. Yes, I have to get into physical fights and everything. It was necessary. And I had to defend myself. And so that was basically it. But luckily that was a long, long time ago and people grow up and mature and things become nicer.
Andrew: Then you became a doctor. And then when you were seven years old, your mom applied for a green card, even though you are not in the U S I didn’t know, you could apply for a green card when you’re not in.
Bobby: Yes because her sister was a U S citizen then,
Andrew: it. And then years later
Bobby: I got my green card one month before my 21st birthday.
Andrew: That’s shot. They just it’s shocking that first of all, that you could do that and then suddenly it happens and you say, okay, I’m moving.
Bobby: In medical school in England. So I actually had to, I got my green card, but I finished my medical school in England and all of that stuff.
Andrew: why did you give up medicine when you spent so much of your life on it?
Bobby: Yep. A lot of ideas. And I had a lot of ideas and everything I wanted to do. I kept on being facing roadblocks. And I realized that you America, I figured would be a lot better than England. I think there’d be a lot more opportunities to see your ideas forward here, but still I’m going to be in a very structured environment.
And that was the reason why I became an entrepreneur. I no longer wanted to make excuses. You see that? Why can’t I do it because I’m being blocked by other people, but that’s not really, that’s an excuse. There are I put myself in a situation environment where I was blocked and I didn’t find a way out of it.
So now I decided I’m going to do it for myself and become an entrepreneur and set up in a situation where I am fully responsible for my actions. And that’s one of the things about America that really appealed to me. You can actually do that here and you can just set your goals and you really only have yourself to basically.
Blame or, you know, rely upon you see, but opportunities exists. The ability to do it is here. And it’s very easy compared to other countries.
Andrew: I’m uh, I’m eager to hear from my audience what they think of your site. I’m going to give you the URL again. I’ve been saying Truet a lot. I should probably spell it for you guys. It’s T R U I c.com. That’s the best place to send them.
Bobby: That’s the best place to send them and how to start an llc.com. That’s a place with all the tools and curricula to redirect people there as they need to.
Andrew: Yeah. My favorite article is the one where it just says, pick out what state you’re from. So I picked California. I hit get started right away at the top. You say, look, if you don’t want to do it for yourself, here are two services that we recommend and you even show that one of them has just three stars versus the other that the cheaper one has more stars.
Are you making more money? Let’s be honest. Are you making more money on the cheaper one on Lea on zoom business? Excuse me. On Zen business than you are from legal zoom.
Bobby: The answer’s. Yes, but then business is also a lot cheaper than the other one, too, for the user.
Andrew: Yeah, there have been, I love their business model a lot. I also like their company, the people that I’ve met there a lot. Um, I did an interview with the founder and then since then I’ve gotten to know the company a little bit and I dig them. All right. And so what I like about that is look how fricking beautifully it’s laid out.
I think that is. That’s an expression of how organized your brain is this one page that I see and how giving you are that you even have the paperwork in here. I love your site. It’s true, Inc com for everyone who’s listening. If you don’t have a website, yet, if you have not done what we’ve talked about here today, which is just take stuff out of your head, put it up on the web for other people to see and see where it goes and who reacts to it.
Go right now to hostgator.com/mixer. Do you look up, be honest with you. I don’t get any more money this year. They already signed their agreement. I get paid no more money. More people sign up. All I get is more pats on the back and I urge you to go to hostgator.com/mixergy. You’ll get a low price. Ya’ll get my Pat on the back, which I liked, but more importantly, you will get a site that can change your life.
You heard it here today in this interview, and if you have a team of people do it. So many of my interviews have done go to Gusto, gusto.com/mixergy. Thank you so much for doing this interview.
Bobby: Thank you very much, Andre.
Andrew: All right, rock on, guys. Send me your businesses when you build them. Bye.