Magento founder Yoav Kutner on open-source products

Today’s guest and his team created Mageneto, a commerce software so many of my guests say they used to build their sites.

They sold to eBay and Yoav, who’s here today, wrote a nasty post about eBay which he later removed. I want to find out about that.

I also want to find out how he went from a guy who basically started out in a closet, creating a software that was used by so many, to coming up with new products.

Yoav Kutner is the founder of Oro Commerce, a b2b e-commerce platform.

Yoav Kutner

Yoav Kutner

Oro Inc

Yoav Kutner is the founder of Oro Commerce, a b2b eCommerce platform.


Full Interview Transcript

Andrew: Hey, everyone. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy. I’m kind of rubbing my hands together in excitement for this interview. Here’s why. Boy, entrepreneurship, I’m telling you this is like a magical thing where people are transformed like that, sometimes up-transformed, sometimes down-transformed, but it’s a transformation.

I’m about to introduce you to a guy named Yoav Kutner who I’ve known for maybe about a decade now, not very well. We’re not super close buddies. We’re not hanging out on the weekends, but I saw him in his fricking office on Pico Boulevard in Los Angeles. It was him and his co-founder sitting on a couch, asked me to come in and do an interview with him because they had these developers who were upset with them because they couldn’t maintain the speed of development and the openness that they needed to. And so they wanted to be open.

And so they said, “Andrew, you’re kind of good at asking questions. You’re good at firing away. Come. Let’s ask the kinds of questions that our community needs.” And so I did. And these guys, Yoav and his team, ended up creating Magento, this commerce software that you’ve heard people who I have interviewed on Mixergy say that that’s what they use to build their e-commerce sites. And they sold it to eBay. And Yoav went and did a post, did a nasty post about eBay that he removed, but I read about it, Yoav. And I want to find out how they did it.

He then went on to say, “Hey, you know what? There’s a lot of CRM out there software that’s supposed to keep track of your potential customers, your existing customers, make it easier for you to contact them. It’s actually not that easy to use. It’s not that we’re stupid for not using it. It’s not that sales people are lazy for not using it. It’s that it actually isn’t very good.” And do this guy, Yoav, who you’re about to meet decided, “I’m going to create something better.” Open source. He called it OrCRM. And that did well.

And then, even though he took outside funding and he was on a path, he decided, “You know, I see this bigger different, slightly different, pay.” And he created OroCommerce. OroCommerce. I’ve got a four-word description from their website that we’re going to need to push some flesh on in the interview. It’s a B2B ecommerce platform. I don’t know exactly what that means, but we’re going to talk about that in this interview. What I’m curious about is how he did it, how we went from being a guy who started out basically in the closet creating a software that was used by so many giant ecommerce sites, and then after selling it, coming up with these new products and more.

This interview is sponsored by two companies you’ve heard me talk about for a long time because they’re getting a lot of sales, frankly, from the Mixergy audience. A lot of happy customers here. The first will host your website, right? Go check them out at And the second sponsor will help you get the next phenomenal developer. Check them out at Yoav, I’m noticing my delivery is so much better than when I was at your office at Pico Boulevard.

Yoav: Obviously, you have a few years of practice here. And this is great. And it’s great to talk to you again.

Andrew: Meanwhile, like I’m developing my interview and my conversation side. And you’re developing your entrepreneurship skills. Before we get into the good stuff, before we get into the details of it, do you remember the day that the sale went through to eBay when you guys sold for how much?

Yoav: Well, the actual sale price we can’t really mention, but it was around the $200 million price point. I remember that very, very vividly. We were at eBay. It was actually a meeting because they had already invested in us. And we had a partnership with them. And it was just a day that we had a few meetings lined up. And they said, “Well, since you’re up here, why don’t you come up and sign?” And that big moment, it was kind of almost an afterthought just for that day. So we weren’t prepared. We weren’t dressed nicely or anything. It was just another day at work. And we were at the eBay headquarters.

And on the way back, we kind of paused and stood in there in the airport in San Jose. Me and Roy were like, “Wow. We just sold the company.” And it was that kind of moment. It wasn’t something we were planning. And we thought it would happen in a few weeks or something. And it just happened like that. So we didn’t build up to it. It was a very kind of life-changing moment for us, of course. And it took us time to sink it in, but once it did, it was definitely a great moment.

Andrew: This was roughly in the middle of 2011. Who did you call as soon as that was done? Who was the first person?

Yoav: Well, my wife, of course. And right after that, we had a plan for me to go basically to Ukraine where all the developers are. We also had a big community event for Developer Paradise. That’s where actually we announced that. So I was in front of a lot of developers. After my wife, a lot of people from the ecosystem, partners, to give them kind of the heads-up that it’s coming, so developers we were working with. It was a big community, but it still felt like a close family. So we kind of gave a heads-up. We actually filmed the video. That’s how we actually announced it to the world. So, I mean, we had already filmed the video telling everybody that it’s coming. And then we released it the same day that I was in this . . . it was called Magento Developer Paradise back then, you know.

Andrew: We did this story here on Mixergy with Roy as the interview how about you guys came up with the idea for Magento, how you built it up, how I think the early customers came through, the works. I’m curious about why you sold. Why did you sell to eBay?

Yoav: You know, we were still founders of this company that took off way faster than we could imagine, right? And I’ll talk personally a long talk on Roy’s behalf, but we were in agreement that it was the right time for us to sell because this company was growing so fast. The brands we were bringing on, the amount of customers we were on-boarding to Magento, the ecosystem, the adoptions that were in the world. And we really wanted to go to the next level, not only for us, but for the company, for the product. And we really felt that we needed more than we were able to just grow kind of organically as a company.

And it was very important for us to have like a backing from a big brand to kind of solidify both us and open source in this so far. And having a produce that’s open source is not always easy to come to the table with when other competitors were at the table. So having this kind of label of we’re an eBay company was a big thing for us and allowed us to compete. It allowed more brands and bigger companies to kind of accept us as a real solution and something that they should consider. So it really felt like that right step for us as a company to become part of this big family of eBay. And, of course, on a personal level as founders, it did change our lives, right? I mean, I was still living with . . .

Andrew: What’s one change that happened to you because of this this?

Yoav: Sure. The biggest thing was up until that time, I was still at a one-bedroom rental apartment me and my wife and our kid. So it was a big kind of change. We were able to finally afford some place to move out. And so it was a big difference for us. And again, because we were a bootstrapped company up to that time, we were not pulling big salaries or anything like that, right? So we were basically not complaining or anything, but it was what we were passionate about, but it definitely changed our lives or stability being able to look to the future and being able to kind of, well . . .

Andrew: The video just paused there for a second. If it doesn’t connect, I’ll call you right back. Ah, there we go. The model behind Magento was open source software. You could install it, kind of like I could install WordPress. The revenue for you guys was going to come in from doing service for it, right, which was I think through your sister company where you were installing it and fixing it or through plug-ins, through a plug-in marketplace. Is that right? Do I have a good memory of it?

Yoav: Almost. I think initially, we were really planning to just do services. That’s the whole idea. We were a services company. And we really needed a product for our customers first of all. And then when we decided to release it on the open source, again, with this phrase of, “What’s the worst that can happen,” right, that really transformed us from a services company to a product company. That really made us change our business model, right, because services is not something you can really scale and still maintain quality. And we got more and more other services companies that were asking to develop on top of our product.

So we shifted kind of the business model. We were playing around in an open source. There are a few models to work. One is support, which we were offering. We were trying that, but that doesn’t work. People just don’t like that because if you have a good open source product, they don’t need your support and services. They actually just want to use it.

So we tried that for a year. We saw that people were not buying and not willing to pre-pay this for support in open source. And then we went the different route, which is dual licensing. And that’s enterprise edition and a community edition where the enterprise edition costs money, actually. And we differentiated more on features. That’s how we did that, but Magento, lesson learned. It doesn’t always work well, specifically for a long-term, keeping those customers around.

Andrew: Why? The idea was the open source has a certain set of features. The public has seen the features. Getting access to it can improve it. The enterprise has proprietary features that only people who pay you guys get access to. Why didn’t that work beautifully?

Yoav: The big problem with that is that one of the things that makes an open source project successful is the ecosystem, the community. When you lock specific parts of it out of it and not making it available to other developers to kind of extend and build on top of that, it kind of kills the idea of the open source product, right? So it doesn’t become a platform any more. It becomes like there’s a platform over here, but everything else you can’t get access to. And you’re sometimes competing with the ecosystem because, for example, gift cards was one of the features. We didn’t give that out in the community edition. We gave it out in the enterprise edition. Of course, the first thing to happen the week after was the developer created the gift cards as an extension, right?

Andrew: I see.

Yoav: So we were kind of competing with the ecosystem, competing with ourselves. And then long-term what happens is that you can get people with a feature set or if they want a feature that they specifically need for their project and say, “Well, you can get it in the enterprise edition,” what happens is that the ecosystem catches up. If those are real features, so those are features that people are using, they will create fee or paid extensions for that.

Andrew: I see.

Yoav: And you start getting this kind of mixed emotions from your customers because they’re saying like after the year first or the second year, they’re like, “Well, I can get those features for a fraction of the price. The product works again. So if I’m just getting support, that’s not what I’m paying for.”

Andrew: That makes sense. And so is a better model the one that Matt Mullenweg has with WordPress? Give the software away for free. The community builds it. If anyone wants it hosted because they don’t want to deal with it themselves, they come to you. And they get hosting.

Yoav: I think that, again, worked at the time that they launched that. And it was very successful for them. So that’s something that definitely has worked for their company, but for Magento, one of our biggest kind of successes was that ability to offer a lot of service providers specifically in the hosting kind of space to offer Magento hosting and then kind of differentiate themselves on how fast Magento runs and how good they can and quality they can deliver during running your Magento store. So that’s a lot of the whole new ecosystem to be built around Magento. So we were playing around with that. We were trying to see maybe we’d get into hosting. Again, we were not a hosting company. I think today this model wouldn’t work, as well.

Andrew: It would not work.

Yoav: No, not as well as before because I think hosting today is more of a commodity. So you can get really cheap hosting at a really good quality. I think kind of the managed hosting is kind of disappearing or it’s revamping or moving into something new, which is kind of managed cloud hosting, right? So I think that’s a bit of a different world today for us. As a product company is I think we need to start offering more of a PaaS solution like platform as a service and infrastructure as a service. So those are where we [inaudible 00:11:46].

Andrew: What do you mean? What’s the difference? I understand the idea. Actually, before we get to the difference, in my mind, there’s Shopify out there. The reason that people go to Shopify is they don’t have to one-click install anything. They’re just like brain-dead. Go to the site. Put up pictures. Do this. Do that. And then anyone who buys ends up sending money to their account, right? Not much to think about. Why wouldn’t a Magento version of that have been the answer for an open source product?

Yoav: Sure. So we tried that out, right? We also saw that Magento . . .

Andrew: You also saw what? I’m sorry. The video froze for a sec.

Yoav: Okay. So we saw the growth that Shopify had. And then we tried to answer that using and creating a product called Magento Go. And that was a kind of hosted version of Magento. The problem is what you just mentioned about Shopify is that that’s great, if you are trying say ecommerce out, if you’re trying to go online, if it’s your first time, if you’re very naïve about how to run an ecommerce store, that really works because there’s not a lot of thinking, like you said.

But when you start becoming more sophisticated with your ecommerce implementations, you’re trying to do stuff a bit different than others. You’re trying to differentiate yourself. And that’s where those platforms kind of fail. For Magento what didn’t work is we started with this unlimited flexibility platform, [inaudible 00:13:01] say. And then we boxed it into this version that was on the cloud, right? And you couldn’t change it. You couldn’t edit it. You had very few extensions that you could install or enable basically. So you’re very limited.

So our customers that were actually already running Magento on the $25 or $40 a month hosting company and said, “Well, yeah, I’m getting Magento and it’s hosted,” couldn’t really go back and forth between them because they went from where they had maybe 10, 15 extensions trying to go on the cloud. And then they couldn’t do that. So it wasn’t the right thing. So, again, lesson learned is you want to give the same flexibility that you’re providing on your open source projects, right, and product, and then like you said, take the IT needs out, right, or reduce the cost of IT and all that for the companies. That’s where platform as a service or infrastructure as a service comes when you are [inaudible 00:13:50].

Andrew: What is an infrastructure service?

Yoav: So we scale the infrastructure for you. You don’t need to worry about how it scales, how to vertically, horizontally all that, charting.

Andrew: What does it mean, scaling horizontally? How do you scale horizontally?

Yoav: Yeah. It depends on different things, but, for example, if you’re cashing your front end, then there’s a lot of traffic you want to scale kind of horizontally, but if you are getting a lot of computational resources used on a server, you can scale vertically and just put a more powerful server.

Andrew: I see. You’re saying that the more you demand of the site, the more resources you have to manage yourself. And instead of you having to figure out how do I deal with all these hits coming to my site that don’t convert into sales, but still need to keep the site from going down, that shouldn’t be your headache. That’s what you’re saying. I see.

Yoav: Sure. Yeah. We provide an infrastructure that runs scales for you. That’s our job today I think as a vendor, as a software vendor. And, again, there are some vendors that that’s what they do is provide the infrastructure as a service and platforms as a service, as well. So we have to partner with them or create our own. A platform as a service is basically allowing you to develop and expand on top of what we are already offering. And there are examples of that like Salesforce and and stuff like that. So you basically provide the out-of-the-box product, but you don’t limit them or you don’t limit the usage. You allow them to build on top of it.

Now, the Salesforce model is almost API-limited. So you’re only going to get whatever they expose to you. So you’re basically building with third-party app using their API Shopify kind of very similar Accenture model, but we’re trying, again, to kind of give you the full power of open source, but in the cloud. So if you want to run your own infrastructure . . .

Andrew: We’re not talking Magento though. Now we’re talking Oro.

Yoav: And more general, what open source projects I think [inaudible 00:15:28].

Andrew: Oh, I see. That’s what open source is doing right now.

Yoav: I think that’s where we have to go today. And we see a lot of this happening with Acquia, with their product Drupal. Magento has a cloud today. Oro has a cloud today, as well. Akeneo PIM [SP] and other open source products [inaudible 00:15:42].

Andrew: That means that you’re not targeting the smaller ecommerce site with Magento and this kind of product. You’re targeting the bigger clients who have bigger needs. And the smaller clients will go to the cheap, free hosting or not free, but the cheaper commoditized hosting.

Yoav: Yes. Well, either that or specifically from CRM and B2B ecommerce, we learned that still a lot of businesses don’t trust the cloud and do not want to host outside of their firewall basically. So we do see a lot of companies that are still happier hosting it on their own. So we call it deploy anywhere kind of strategy, right? We are not going to stand in your way of where you’re going to deploy a product. You want to go in-house hosted on your own, use your IT company? That’s fine.

Andrew: Exactly. In this case you’re talking about Oro.

Yoav: Oro, yeah.

Andrew: Okay. Let me take a little more time here with Magento. And then we’re going to go into Oro, how you came up with the original idea and so on and why you’re not going to tell me what your sales figures are for Oro. You told me privately, but I don’t reveal anything that people told me privately. I do try to get them to talk about it publicly as much as possible. I’m looking at a post that’s completely gone now from Magento because they’ve moved on, but from April 2, 2012, Roy Rubin, your co-founder, says a big thank you to you for spending eight years working virtually nonstop being the CTO and thank you and goodbye. Why did you leave? Why did you leave after that sale?

Yoav: So it was there was a lot of theories why I left. I think the honest truth is it was pretty boring. It was just a contract issue. Me and Roy, we still thought that we could do a lot within eBay and Magento and grow the company. We had really wild plans for where we were going to take the product. I think what happened was that there was a reorg. And that kind of triggered my contract. And that basically allowed me to either stay and work, but lose a lot of the privileges I had or leave and take everything that was owed to me. You know, putting my family first I guess, I had thought that was the right decision. So unfortunately, I had to leave. We would try to work it out for a while. And I really tried to stay, but it just didn’t work out. And unfortunately, I had to step out.

Andrew: You’re right. Strangely, there are a lot of rumors. And partially the rumors happened because of this Cora post and a TechCrunch post that happened, but first, before we get into that, let me take a break here and talk about my sponsor. The sponsor is actually a company that could host your old Magento. We’re talking about HostGator.

HostGator, guys, if you’re listening, you probably heard me talk about how HostGator is inexpensive, easy to use hosting, that scales with your business. And I’ve often talked about it was a place where you want to go and install WordPress. WordPress is what we use to publish Mixergy. WordPress is, what 25%, maybe 30% almost of the internet uses to publish their content, but with one click, not only can you install WordPress, but if you choose to, you could with one click install Magento and have an ecommerce site. Frankly, they have a bunch of different one-click install options.

Here’s the deal with HostGator though. What you want to do is go to HostGator. I would not go for their cheapest plan. I’d go for the plan that’s a little bit beyond the cheapest. Their hatchling plan starts at $3.48 a month. Forget that. Go $1 more, $1.50 more, their baby plan. For $4.98 a month, you get unlimited domains. Here’s what I would suggest that you do. Use your unlimited domains to just experiment by running WordPress site that has nothing to do with what you’re doing right now and see if maybe a little side idea becomes something that’s a flicker of inspiration that becomes your next big thing.

That’s what happened with Mixergy. We used to do these events. I installed WordPress on like a subdomain somewhere. I played around with it. I said, “Hey, you know what? I like this.” And then I did interviews. I said, “I like doing the interviews.” And then that kind of took off. You can use that baby plan to also play around with Magento. You’ve heard us talk about Magento. You know a lot about ecommerce sites using Magento.

Play around with it. See what it’s like to actually own and run your own ecommerce site, not somebody else’s software that’s limited, but one that’s yours to run, to take to a different hosting provider, if you like, and to play around with and see the source code. Lots of different options, but what you could do with your HostGator account. If you’re just getting started or want to just experiment with it, I urge you. Put down your iPhone, put down whatever else you’re doing in your spare time and just go online and play around with HostGator. See what it’s like to install one of these sites. See what it’s like to put one of them up and see if maybe something actually sparks that bit of innovation that leads to the next big business or helps your current business by bringing in new ideas that will grow it.

All right. is where you get the discount that offers you that great low price and also where, because you come from me, they’ll take really good care of you. And if you have any issues, you could call me or email me and my team. And we’ll help you with HostGator. Unmetered bandwidth, unmetered disc space, unlimited email addresses, 45-day money-back guarantee. Guys, you’ll love it. I promise. They guarantee it. Go check them out at By the way, is there one site that if you could start today right now, you have nothing, just like you back then, just a guy in a closet and nothing but a web hosting package, what would you start?

Yoav: I had an idea from

Andrew: My sleeping cat. Where’s the money in that?

Yoav: Well, probably from ads, but people love looking at sleeping cats. And mine are adorable.

Andrew: I said, “Oh, man. You were nodding as I asked you that question.” He’s got the next big idea [inaudible 00:21:03].

Yoav: Oh, I had a plan. Really, I’m serious. I had the domain for a while.

Andrew: You did have some issue here. You did a post on Corra [SP]. I kind of have a little bit of what you said, but not all of it where . . . Well, why don’t you tell me? What was the situation that you had?

Yoav: Well, that’s one of the things that for legal reasons I am really not allowed to discuss openly.

Andrew: Really? You’re not allowed to say it? I just like got this up.

Yoav: Well, I think it speaks for itself. I think there were issues like any other company, any other merger. So [inaudible 00:21:35].

Andrew: You basically said that eBay did not understand the meaning of open because . . . You know what? Since you can’t talk about what you said there, what’s the difference between how they were . . . how were they doing open versus what you were doing?

Yoav: So it was I think X.commerce [SP], if you remember, for anybody who remembers going all the way back. Their approach to designing what a platform was, was completely different than what Magento was. We were about open source. We were about relying on the flexibility of the product. And it was really kind of a different marriage. When it came to technology, they were looking at creating this enterprise, thus, basically allowing any two applications to talk to each other, no limitations. You know, everything works out of the box. I think that was one issue. And, again, just the way we were creating Magento and doing everything around Magento, we were 100% transparent meaning we were saying sharing with everybody, what we were working on, where we were going. I used to call it we used to do our dirty laundry in public. There were no secrets, right?

Andrew: A guy named Andrew Warner just take all the nasty questions the media are firing at you and commenting.

Yoav: Yeah. Exactly.

Andrew: And you sat down and you took it live.

Yoav: Yeah. Andrew weren’t even preparing, right? We didn’t select. You were just like, you know. And that was the DNA of the company. I think, again, moving to a kind of enterprise [inaudible 00:22:58] kind of a company having all these limitations, what we can talk, what we can say for me it was a big problem, not exposing a lot of the direction and the strategy [inaudible 00:23:07].

Andrew: You know why that’s surprising to me coming from you because I’ve seen you in person? Here’s why that was surprising to me. You were always the quieter of the two guys. Roy was the guy who was talking. Roy was the guy who was wearing the sports jacket. You were the quiet guy in the background, the CTO.

Yoav: Well, that was my role, right? I was the CTO.

Andrew: But you had like strong opinions. And you were holding back.

Yoav: I think we always had strong opinions, both me and Roy. I was more kind of facing the developer ecosystem, kind of the SI, the system integrator stuff. Yeah, Roy was doing all the business part, partnerships, stuff like that. So I had very vocal discussions in my ecosystem. I guess less people are interested when developers are talking to each other, but we were really open about everything. We were doing strategy. And we were getting a lot of comments that we didn’t like to hear, but it was very important for me managing the product and technology to understand that that’s where the ecosystem wants us to go. So it was an open kind of discussion. Always people aired out everything like that. So I was very vocal in that space. I think, again, if you were more in the business space, you would talk more to Roy than to me for sure, but I never kind of hid behind [inaudible 00:24:21].

Andrew: You never held back. So maybe it was just me, that I kept asking like marketing questions. And he was the guy to jump in on that. While you were at Magento, you guys did what a lot of businesses do. You tried to use Salesforce. What were you guys looking to use Salesforce for?

Yoav: So that was specifically for managing customers, of course, or allowing our sales people to start working the leads, the opportunities, and all that, for us to get forecasts and all that, but we also started with Magento Go, which I mentioned earlier. And we wanted to see how to automate all that. How do we kind of combine the CRM with all the data that we have about those online stores that people were using and kind of giving, for example, our sales team the right leads, right? So stores that are actually transacting and are not just placeholders, for example? So maybe we want to have an account rep contact them and actually talk to them, see how they’re doing, make sure that they’re successful, maybe upgrade and them to an enterprise edition and so forth. So we looked around for any kind of CRM or client relation management tool, but most of them, yeah, just didn’t do that work.

Andrew: Why? What’s the problem? People use Salesforce every day. There’s a reason why Salesforce is about to build one of the biggest buildings in the country right here in San Francisco, right? People are paying them for it. What’s the problem that you guys had with it?

Yoav: So our problem was that kind of the core product of Salesforce is not really . . . you know, it is, by name, client relation management or CRM, but when you try to use it, it does mostly pipeline management. So it allows you to kind of update leads and update to an opportunity and then close it as won or close it as loss. And your sales manager can then track the pipeline and see how good the company’s going to do, etc., very boring and very mundane, but that’s what it is, but in today’s world, people don’t do that, right? Sales people don’t like to necessarily go and update every call they have, manually type it in. They work in email. They work on the phone. A lot of it is automated today. People are coming into your website. And you want to kind of lead score them, etc. So to do that and achieve that even with Salesforce, it’s a bunch of add-ons that you have to start kind of plugging in.

Andrew: Yes, I’ve done interviews with entrepreneurs who have created those add-ons, yeah.

Yoav: Right. They have a really good potential business plan and stuff that you can do with that, but the core part starts bloating up very fast to do a kind of easy things. I think another thing that kind of was very hard for us was the multi-channel kind of aspect of it. So we were interacting with our customers in multiple ways. There might be a community member. They might have a gold store. And they might have an on premise store. And they might even be a developer. And these kind of personas, these kind of points of interactions, that we were having with them were completely different. And we started getting them in different silos of the company.

So some of the data was started in one system. One was in the community site. One was in the Salesforce. Some of them were in the store, but we wanted this multi-channel to have one view of the people we were interacting with and have it in a single place. So this multi-channel kind of aspect of most companies today have multiple channels or multiple points of interaction with customers. That’s kind of what was lacking or very hard to achieve with the existing CRM tools.

Andrew: But frankly everything seems hard to achieve with Salesforce. I told you before we started somehow my wife was supposed to like get her nonprofit that she was working in set up with Salesforce because I think they thought, “Here is a new piece of software. Just let somebody on the team who’s smart go run it,” but it’s not like a G suite or implementing even Microsoft Office. It’s the whole thing. So if you’re hiring somebody to go and implement it for you, if you’re spending all this time to even use Salesforce, what’s the big deal about saying, “And we also have customers in this other channel and customers who talk to us in this other way. Just find a way to connect it all and set us up.” What was the problem there?

Yoav: So just technology wise because you’re starting to have multiple kind of integrations even in Salesforce starting to use the plug-ins of different products that they kind of acquired, you started getting these silos of data in your company. And sometimes even the look and feel will look completely different. You’ll have to have multiple logins sometimes. So it’s easy to . . . it doesn’t feel like one product to achieve something that I think today a company has to be able to do easier in an easier way. I’ll say that, and have complete control on how it works, meaning this is where I like the open source approach rather than just an API platform that Salesforce is because with open source, you actually make a productivity tool out of your CRM for your company. You have to do some customizations to it. You have to have some workflows that are very relevant to your company, but not to others.

And to achieve the same kind of flexibility with Salesforce, it’s very costly. Unfortunately, again, it’s a few add-ons, a few plug-ins. Then there’s training that you have to send somebody at least to know how to configure everything and then hire some developer that will actually put everything together. So time to market is very slow, the investment. You have your story. My biggest story, it happened more than once. For me, it kind of solidifies what CRM is or how the old CRM world looked like is that when we were pitching OroCRM, our product, and again, it happened multiple times, but one that really strikes me was a customer that said basically, “We love it. We’ve ready to sign one through all the discovery and everything.” And right when we gave them the proposal and they had to sign it, they came back to us and said, “Well, we actually found out we were in a five-year contract with Salesforce. And we were actually paying for it.” Nobody’s just logging in, right?

Andrew: They didn’t even realize that they were customers of Salesforce.

Yoav: Nobody even knew that they were customers of Salesforce. That’s why they were talking about.

Andrew: We should go and figure out we can use this before [inaudible 00:29:53].

Yoav: Yeah, they said, “Look. We’re on a five-year contract. We’ll get back in two years.” In six months, we will think to open the discussion with them again, but that’s what happened because, again, they knew they needed some tool to manage their customers, but they had no way to really use it. Nobody in the company actually even logged in once to use it. So CRM has a problem that it is considered as a productivity tool for the company and for the sales team, but it’s anything but. It’s very hard to get started. A lot of times, it’s a lot of work that’s not relevant to what your company is. It’s very hard to get multiple data sources about your customers in an easy way and in a meaningful way for your company.

Andrew: What about this? I put in OroCRM into Capterra. And they’re recommending HubSpot, in addition, to Salesforce and Freshsales, which is still new, Salesforce, which is big. HubSpot. Is HubSpot CRM good at doing this?

Yoav: So HubSpot is more of a marketing tool that, again, when the CRM world had to start being redefined to the actual needs, it became kind of a tug war between CRMs, old school CRMs, and marketing tools because each of them have some piece of the data, right? Your CRM, you would update leads and opportunities. And then on the marketing tool, you would have a lot of this customer data that you would then try to market to and kind of close the loop. So a lot of customers said, “Look. I don’t need the fully-fledged CRM because I don’t have a sales team. I just want to track the leads that are coming in from my campaigns. How do I do that?”

That’s where we started thinking, “Maybe we really need to put something in the middle. It’s not the marketing tool job. And it’s not the old school CRM that only manages leads and opportunities. It is the CRM’s job. It is the client relation management tool for a company that has to be kind of the central data repository of all your customer interactions in one place. And then the marketers can actually act and create segments and campaigns based on data and stuff like that.

Andrew: Okay. You are saying there was no tool that was simple enough to use. People were paying for it and not actually using it or they were in what I’m going to call hell of trying to use it. Also, data, even if you were using the right data, was everywhere. And it was hard to get it together and have it organized. That’s the problem you saw. How did you know this was a big enough problem and people would pay? What was your process for understanding the market before you launched?

Yoav: So for us, it’s easy. We came from the Magento ecosystem. We looked at the top five requests of what people were having. And CRM was one of the top five, actually like number three [inaudible 00:32:16].

Andrew: And then were they specifically detailed about what they were looking for and it matched what you wanted?

Yoav: Well, they said, “We need the CRM tool. We want to improve the customer experience with our company, right? When they call us and whoever they talk to, they want to at least have the feeling that we know who they are, right?” Let’s start from that. Especially in ecommerce, merchants, that one of their channels is selling online. When a customer calls in and says, “I have an order, they don’t want to go and say, “Well, I don’t see it. Let me call this guy.”

Andrew: And do where were you seeing these requests and these specific issues? Was this in the community in the forum that you guys had or somewhere else?

Yoav: Everywhere. So customers, the community edition users, developers that were trying to build integrations. We’ve always had this sort of weird question of, “Okay. I have the shopping cart in Magento. I have a Salesforce or a CRM integration. Where does the shopping cart go? Is it a lead or is it an opportunity,” right? And our answer at Oro is it’s a shopping cart. That’s what it is. That entity is a shopping cart. You want to get all items that are in the shopping cart, you want to be able to segment the customers based on what items they have in their shopping carts and present the way they live, and then market to them directly.

So we really feel that a flexible CRM today can allow every channel to bring their relevant data in, in their native format. Then you can add to that data. The data is made visible to people that need to see it. The marketing department can actually segment on that data. Like I said, it’s the central data repository of all your customer interaction in one place.

Andrew: Okay. All right. You are looking around at all these different customer issues, all these requests. You said I can create it. Why did you go back to open source? I guess I could see you’re a guy who loves it so much you complain when it’s not open source.

Yoav: Well, exactly, but I think that open source is a strategy for us. It was the strategy in Magento. It’s the strategy here at Oro. It’s the strategy that we’ve proven as something that works because there’s no down side to that right? I really have discussions with companies that are asking me, “Should we go open source? Should we not go open source?” My answer is always, “There’s no down siding going open source. You can’t just be afraid that everybody’s going to copy you and always see how you’re doing everything.” That’s not an excuse. I think really there’s no down siding going open source. If anything, that’s how you get a lot of marketing done.

Again, we’re doing it for the second time. We’re a small company. We’re in the lag end, but we have over 240,000 live instances of our product around the world. We could not have achieved that, if we would have a closed solution. It’s a great lead generator. A lot of companies do a POC on their own internally using an open source product and then call us back and say, “We like it. We want to move to the next phase.”

Andrew: What’s a POC?

Yoav: Proof of concept. Sorry.

Andrew: That means they’re downloading it just to try it out, kind of like what I was saying in the ad for HostGator. They’re downloading it, playing with it, then they say, “You know what? This works.” Then why contact you? Why not just implement it themselves?

Yoav: Sometimes they do. Most of the times they actually do, but again, we think that’s a good thing. Again, a company might be successful. They’ll need a bit more. However, if you want, I can also mention what we did learn about how to differentiate because we are keeping this kind of dual licensing model, but what I do think that works much better in the open source is not to differentiate in features, but actually on skill ability, on quality, and stuff like that. The differentiator is actually easier to understand.

The feature set is almost identical with our products today, but if you’re a company and you started becoming successful and there are more scalability issues that you’re getting, you’re maybe starting to thousands of records, you grew to tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of records, but now you’re really successful, you have millions of records that you want to maintain, we offer a different kind of stack that we support for the enterprise edition. We save you a lot of time kind of figuring it out on your own how to scale the application to millions of records and working with that. We provide a ready kind of supported stack that we do with best of breed.

Actually, most of them are an open source product, but already preconfigured working together for the enterprise edition. We allow you to actually scale and go to the next level using like more enterprise-scale tools to actually build the better experience using our products. That’s where we differentiate. A lot of the small companies will start with our free product, but once they are actually successful, once they have to grow, then they’ll make the decision. Do we invest and just scale it on our own or is doing all this work and they’re testing it and they’re proving it, let’s just pay them a little bit of money and get better quality out of it?

Andrew: I’m looking here at my notes from the pre-interviewer’s conversation with you. One things you were asked is, “What’s the first step you took to launch?” You said, “You know what? For us, the good news is we already had the technology.” What did you mean by that, that you already had the technology?

Yoav: Well, I think it’s [inaudible 00:36:52].

Andrew: That’s what I’m trying to figure out is there is OroCRM.

Yoav: I think that’s [inaudible 00:36:56].

Andrew: There’s OroPlatform. Then there’s OroCommerce. It started out with the CRM. That was the problem that people are coming to your community and Magento and telling you about. That’s the first solution. You built it on the platform first or what was the technology you had?

Yoav: Yeah. When we built Magento . . . Let me go back to the Magento days. One of the things we kind of figured out was that a lot of users were using Magento for anything but what we designed it to be, which is a B2C ecommerce platform. The reason when I started talking to developers and trying to understand why are they doing that, they basically said, “Look. There’s a lot of features that we would have to go and develop from scratch, right? I mean, user management for our admin panel, navigation in the admin panel, etc.” They have to go and redo all these things for an application that manages videos, for example, right?

They looked at Magento and said, “Look. If we strip out all these kind of ecommerce features, we have a lot of features we need.” This time we looked at how can we help the ecosystem be a bit more successful using our products? We selected a framework. This time we selected Symphony 2. We use them for Magento 1, but now we’re using Symphony 2, which we feel is a bit more mature, has a bigger ecosystem around it. It was very good, but what we created before starting on our product, we created this layer that we call OroPlatform. That’s like a general business application platform.

The idea was, again, we have some stats that show that about 50% of companies can find off-the-shelf products for their use. They end up custom-building their own products. We wanted to give them a better starting point, right? Don’t start from scratch or using the framework. We’re giving you a platform that you can build on and basically apply your business kind of logic on top of it, if you want or business domain on top of this platform, but we already solved a lot of the features you need, for example, user management ACL, report engine, entity engine, etc. You just go and build your business domain, what makes your business tick or run, and then launch it for yourself.

What we also saw was the companies building products on top of this. There’s Akamai PM and open source product information management. There is Marello. It’s open source ERP for ecommerce now. They’re using our platform to build their own products. Again, we gave it out under MIT license. You can do whatever you want. You can be as destructive as you want with this platform. That’s the idea of it, but again, it generates a bigger ecosystem around our products, which is what we like. That’s what we like to see. I think the question that was asked was about OroCommerce. When we actually came to OroCommerce, [inaudible 00:39:21].

Andrew: Let’s put a pin in that. We’re going to come back and say what’s this other thing? You came at this world, at this business, with one problem in mind. You started solving it. Things were good. Then how do you end up on this whole other path? Let’s take a moment here. I’ll talk about my sponsor. Then I’ll come back in. We’ll pick up the story.

The sponsor is a company called Toptal, but get this. You’ll recognize this problem because you’re a guy who ran an agency. I was having dinner with a group of people. The guy sitting next to me was a guy named Drew Gorham. Drew started telling me how he has this agency to build apps, iPhone apps, Android apps, mobile apps in general. I started asking him the kind of questions that I ask in these interviews. Well, how do you get your customers? What happens when this ecosystem is developing? What happens when Android is fragmenting and all that? How do you keep hiring all these developers? He said, ‘Toptal.”

I said, “I know them. Toptal is my sponsor. How do you do Toptal?” He says, “Well, I go in and I sell apps. Whatever people want, I can build it because I can design it. I can think it through with them, but I can’t build it personally. I can’t hire a team of people who can build it. I don’t want to manage it. I want to keep it light.” I said, “What do you do?” He says, “Whenever I need someone, I go to Toptal.” I said, “Great. We have this new client. The client needs this kind of thing. I need you to find the right developer for me.” They find the right developer for me.

Then that developer is kind of like they’re on Drew’s team, the same email address with the company, get to be in their Slack community, get to talk to the clients that all represent Drew whenever they even need to talk to clients, usually. They don’t even need to. That’s how he scaled up this business. If you guys are listening to me and you have an agency like I used to have, like Drew has, and need to hire more people, you should know Toptal is one resource hat your competitors are already going to. When a client needs something and you don’t have the specialty in it, but you need it to take care of them, you can reach out to Toptal, hire a part-time developer, a full-time developer, a team of developers, and get the job done.

Of course, if you’re hiring outside agencies, you should know often what they do is they work with Toptal to hire their developers. In fact, Toptal has a whole group of people who do nothing but help out agencies. You might want to just cut out the middleman, go directly to Toptal, and get your great developers.

If you’re out there and you’re listening to me, you should go to, T-O-P-T-A-L. That’s T as in the top of your head, T as in talent, Mixergy listeners will get 80 hours of Toptal developer credit when they pay for their first 80 hours. That’s in addition to a no-risk trial period of up to two weeks. I just hired someone from them. I’ve been really enjoying the way that these guys are just so on it. They’re just so on it. Go check them out. I know that you’re going to be happy with them. I guess you and I probably could do a whole interview about how hiring is for you, right?

Yoav: Yeah. Hiring is a tough one.

Andrew: You know what? That’s the thing that I found. When it’s a new entrepreneur, it’s, “How do I get the idea?” When it’s an established entrepreneur, it’s, “How do I hire?”

Yoav: Well, we were lucky this second time around.

Andrew: I can see some familiar faces when I look at your online profile, right? Like even Roy is your advisor from what I saw [inaudible 00:42:24].

Yoav: He’s been our advisor for it, yeah.

Andrew: I assumed you always hired good people because of the open source community, that you get to tap into people. You guys are active on GitHub here, that whole thing.

Yoav: Right. I mean, that’s a rule of thumb when you do open source is if you see any good talent that doesn’t work from somebody you know in the ecosystem, you hire them. You know, that’s always a good way to get the right talent because you know where they are, where they come from and what they can do. That’s a good one, but for us it was lucky because Magento was kind of downsizing right when we started. They closed, shut down, two offices. We basically tried to hire most of the people that came out from those two offices in the Ukraine. We got the team like up and running within a few months. That was pretty cool.

Andrew: That’s fantastic. [Inaudible 00:43:06] be good they let them go. All right. OroCommerce, where did that come from then?

Yoav: Well, OroCommerce, again, comes from two places that we kind of started paying attention to. One was definitely our Magento experience. One thing we started noticing when we were at Magento was that a lot of ecommerce companies or let me say companies were trying to go the ecommerce route, but their use case was not B2C. It was not business to consumer. They were companies that were selling to other companies. There are three different scenarios for that. Maybe we won’t get into that right now, but the idea was that their use case was not what we were solving at Magento, which was selling directly to consumers online, which was the big thing in the last 10, 15 years.

But when we started we had a big ego at Magento. We said, “We can do anything you want.” We were flexible, open source. We took those on as challenges. We did these projects. To be honest, the result was something that was extremely custom-made for these kind of businesses because B2B or business to business ecommerce is very, very different. I won’t say completely different. There are websites. There are domains. There’s a URL or whatever, but the actual fundamentals of it is completely different, how you approach a sale, how you approach a catalogue, etc.

Andrew: I thought Oro, it’s B2C. Isn’t it also B2B where someone would see a lead come on their website. It would end up in OroCRM. Then a sales person would contact them and sell to them, but isn’t that a B2B, a business to business, sale?

Yoav: In Magento or online?

Andrew: In OroCommerce.

Yoav: In OroCommerce, it is a B2B sale.

Andrew: Excuse me, in OroCRM.

Yoav: OroCRM solves any interactions you have with customers. One of your channels can be a sales team B2B, right? Some lead comes in or a request for a quote comes in.

Andrew: I see. It doesn’t specialize in business to business.

Yoav: No. Actually, that’s a big difference. We are a multi-channel CRM. We can support the B2C use case. We have an integration with Magento, for example. Your customer reps can actually interact with customers that are calling in and saying, “I can’t find this product. How can I add it to cart?” You can go through OroCRM and add it to their cart.

Andrew: Businesses are coming to you saying, “Hey, you have this tool that works for anybody. We have a specific use that’s a little narrower, but we need you to go deeper.” You started building that deeper.

Yoav: On Magento, yeah.

Andrew: Oh, on Magento. Not even on OroCRM.

Yoav: No, this is going back to the Magento days.

Andrew: Oh, this is back then. I see.

Yoav: Yeah. We had a big ego. We said, “Look. In Magento, we can do everything, every use case that comes our way.” The companies that came to us were actually trying to sell to other companies online. Not necessarily selling to consumers like Amazon traditionally does, right? We’re talking about a company. Company A wants to buy from company B.

Andrew: What’s the difference between the way that a company . . . why can’t a company just use the standard ecommerce software and create a store just like they would if they were courting consumers?

Yoav: Sure. It starts on many different levels, but one obvious one is that you don’t necessarily publish your prices publicly. Every account or every company that you’re interacting with might have a completely different set of pricing for their catalog that they’re viewing, right? When you do B2C, you advertise the lowest price that you are allowed to, right? You’re trying to go and get this best price to everybody out there. You don’t know who your customer is, right? They can be an 18-year-old kid shopping from a college room or it can be somebody that’s 70 years old shopping from their home. You don’t know who the target customer necessarily is.

When it comes to B2B, we are talking to customers that have most times a relationship with another company. They’re established. Again, they don’t necessarily have a face-to-face meeting any more, but they have some relationship. The relationship is deeper. When a company wants to buy online, which everybody wants to do that today, they don’t necessarily want to start the search for the product by typing in a search term into the search bar or starting to navigate through hundreds of categories. They actually know what products they’re looking for.

Moreover, they might request from you, “I don’t want to see a million products that you offer. I want to see the hundred or a thousand products that are relevant to me,” right? When I log in, I want to see all about this kind of catered experience. I don’t want to necessarily have this experience of going on Amazon and searching for ink or whatever you want to buy on Amazon and seeing thousands of results. I want to see the relevant results for me.

Andrew: I get that now, but then I’m wondering all right, that’s a problem. Why are you, the guy who’s going to create a CRM, who’s going to take on Salesforce with an open source alternative, also saying, “I’ll create this other site and this other piece of software that’s going to address this shopping by businesses?”

Yoav: Yeah. Let me answer that, but just say and we can go deeper into that. It’s not another product. It’s an extension for an existing product. I guess that’s where that question came from earlier. We did already have CRM. What we started getting is absolutely we were on the road to go after Salesforce and after all these kind of old school CRM tools. We loved that. We were very excited about that. More and more for B2B use case, customers came to us and said, “Look. The CRM is great, but our sales team doesn’t want to use it,” right? We talked about it early. It’s not really productive for them to use this. They want to do more in one system. Otherwise, they won’t use it.

That’s where they started asking to create custom catalogs for their customers that they’re interacting with. Answer quotes with an actual quote that they’re putting in the system. That updates their opportunity for them automatically. They wanted to put oars on behalf of other customers or their customers. And they wanted to maintain pricing for those customers in the single system, not going into different multiple systems to do what they actually do on a day-to-day work that they have. So we had this experience with Magento and how B2B companies are trying to go online. Then we had CRM customer that were asking us to extend the CRM offering to do more, to make their sales team more productive. That’s kind of where these two worlds kind of merged. And we said, “Okay. We need to do the ecommerce platform for B2B companies.” And that’s where OroCommerce comes from.

Andrew: I’m a little embarrassed to ask stupid questions, but I’ve got to. It still feels like it’s two different businesses. It still feels like we still have to conquer the CRM world. Why would we go and do this other thing?

Yoav: Like any entrepreneur, we are very opportunistic. The CRM story is very good, but it’s a very slow-going one. It’s a huge market. There’s a lot of competitors. And like I said, we’re opportunistic. With the B2B ecommerce, it’s kind of touched a nerve immediately. The story, specifically for companies that are looking for it, is we didn’t have to sing it and try to teach them the words to the song. They got it. And they sang along immediately while the demo was just started.

So we really felt that there was a greenfield opportunity in the B2B commerce space. Our investor agreed with that, as well. It’s something that we’re not letting go of the CRM story. We feel that there’s a lot to do there. We’re continuously investing in it and onboarding new customers, but the B2B ecommerce story is just much fresher. And not that many companies are in that space.

Andrew: It’s taking off faster.

Yoav: It’s taking off much faster, yes.

Andrew: As a percentage of your sales, it’s taking off bigger percentage of your sales than CRM.

Yoav: Right. So yeah, what happened is we’ve had the CRM on the market since 2013. And we just launched OroCommerce the beginning of this year in the end of January. And it’s already surpassed our revenue. So [inaudible 00:50:39] the CRM revenues.

Andrew: Wow. I see. Can you say what your overall revenues are or give me a band or something? You told me before, but, as I said, I won’t reveal anything, but what is it?

Yoav: This year we’re really going to go somewhere in the middle between $5 and $10 million in sales.

Andrew: Between $5 and $10 million in sales. We’re talking about we’re basically two months away from the end of the year when we’re recording. And you’ve got a sense of where the revenues are because of the kinds of clients that you have.

Yoav: Yes.

Andrew: [Inaudible 00:51:08] this rush of surprise download or anything.

Yoav: No. No, but I want to say that the deal sizes in B2B are much bigger. So, as well, CRM is a much more competitive kind of space. So pricing I think and expectations are a bit different. There are a lot of these very small CRM tools that are out there, as well. When it comes to B2B commerce today, there are very few, like less than five players, that can actually kind of bid on the project today and Oro, as well.

Andrew: So OroCommerce, that’s where your excitement was. I’m even looking here at somewhere in my notes, it was like, “What do you want to talk to Andrew about?” And ideally, and it was OroCommerce. And I spent so much time on OroCRM, but it’s the commerce business that’s bigger, the B2B.

Yoav: The commerce business is newer. So it’s definitely exciting. And I think we really are in a greenfield environment right now. So it’s definitely more exciting. There’s less education we have to do I’ll say when it comes to CRM because in the CRM world, we’re kind of fighting what people think a CRM should do. And we’re kind of teaching them, well, you should expect more, but when it comes to B2B commerce, like I said, people have this expectation. They basically want to do whatever they were doing on pen and paper today want to do it online, want to interact with customers online. And that’s something we are able to do with OroCommerce today.

Andrew: And they’re demanding it already. So you’re not [inaudible 00:52:23].

Yoav: And that’s demanding. We really have, again, a bunch of inbound. You know, there’s no effort almost right now to grow this business. So that’s definitely exciting. And like I said, CRM, I’ve been talking about it for four years. And we can talk all day long about that, as well. I think just how OroCommerce is taking off is much more exciting if you look at startups and stuff like that, yeah.

Andrew: So what’s the big lesson that I should take away from this or someone who’s listening? When it comes to finding a new product, what’s the big lesson?

Yoav: Well, we are very lucky because we have this like almost eight years’ experience working with it. In the ecosystem, they were letting us know what they want. So we were not guessing on both products, right, and actually on all three products that we have today. We were never guessing the people need it. We knew people were asking for it. So it was an easy kind of choice for us. When it comes to if you can prove the product that you’re building, if it’s a proven need and you know this for a fact because you hear people are asking for it, that’s almost a non-brainer for you to say, “Well, if more and more people are asking for it, maybe we should start answering that request.” So that’s [inaudible 00:53:27].

Andrew: So that’s a big one. Where are the big complaints that the software’s not doing it? We need something else. Where are the big requests coming in? And you were getting it both in calls with customers and emails from users, but also online from your community where you were seeing they had this problem.

Yoav: From the community, yeah.

Andrew: Over and over.

Yoav: Yeah, from the community customers. Yes, over and over again. Yeah. That’s how we did it. And again, we have three of them, but those are all actual requests we were getting. And I’ll say out of the one that’s maybe more traditional is when I was part of a business organization named Magento, whatever we were suffering, you should probably expect that other companies are going through the same pains. So if you can solve that pain for yourself, you’ll make a lot of people happy.

Andrew: All right. Here’s something I didn’t ask you, but there’s no nice transition to it. I just have to ask it. You were in a rock band. That’s what brought you to the US.

Yoav: Yes.

Andrew: Were you the guitarist?

Yoav: I was one of two guitarists, yeah.

Andrew: One of two guitarists playing rock.

Yoav: Rock.

Andrew: And what happened?

Yoav: Hip hop happened. By the time we got signed and we were doing recordings and everything, hip hop started taking over from rock music like in the mid-’90s.

Andrew: What [inaudible 00:54:37]?

Yoav: Just a management company, actually Genesis management company. So they were investing in a recording and all that. And they were trying to shop us around. No record label picked us up. And they said, “We’re not interested in rock. You know, hip hop is where it’s at right now.” So we got basically what’s called shelved. So we [inaudible 00:54:55].

Andrew: I can’t believe you could get to the US though as a musician.

Yoav: Yeah. I mean, we came here for a few months to record, do a demo tape, went back, yeah.

Andrew: Is there any of this, it’s not even on Soundcloud, is it?

Yoav: No because it was all before that, but the anecdote on that, it was taken down already, but when we tried to demo downloadable products on Magento, the songs that you would get is my band song.

Andrew: Oh, wow. That’s pretty cool. All right. Well, congratulations on all the success and everything you’ve done over the years. I’m glad to see that it’s going well. I couldn’t believe that you were the same Yoav when I saw that we were going to interview you. I said, “I know that guy, but let’s see what happens with the team. Let’s see how they went through it.” Anyway, thanks so much for being on here.

Yoav: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And we’ll hopefully talk again in the future.

Andrew: Yeah. All right. The website for anyone who wants to check it out, forget all the other Oro’s. Here’s the one that you should go check out. And it will link to all the other Oro’s. It’s, There’s my wife. She knows that the interview’s supposed to be done now. So she’s calling. And the two sponsors are the hosting company where you could host WordPress. You guys are run on WordPress or Magento. You guys used to have Magento, all with one click. Go to And if you need to hire your next great developer, call us Toptal, All right. I’m going to go call my wife.

Yoav: Thank you.

Andrew: Bye, Yoav.

Yoav: Bye-bye.

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