Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of mixergy.com, home of ambitious upstart. Joining me right now is a musician who built a business by teaching what he himself needed to learn. Kavit Haria is the founder of insidermusicbusiness.com, which shows indie musicians how to promote their music and get more paid gigs and sell more of their music. Today he heads another company that he founded; it’s called insiderinternetsuccess.com. It creates a predictable marketing sales process for businesses on the web. It does it for them and we’ll find out about both of those businesses.
And we’ll do that thanks to my sponsor, Toptal. If you need a developer, you go to Toptal, you tell them what kind of work you need done, what your culture is like, how you’d like to work with a developer, how many hours you want. Do you want a full timer? Do you want a part timer? Do you need someone who will just work a few hours? Toptal has a network of top developers. I know it because some people who are incredible developers got turned down by them, so they screen their developers.
They make sure they’re the right ones, and when you tell them what they need, they go to their network and find the perfect fit for you and they introduce that person to you and then you can decide if you want to hire them. If you do, you often can start with them the very next day and keep your project up and running. All you have to do is go to toptal.com. And if you have any questions about it, I’m going to show you how you can get a guarantee. You try out the developer. If you’re not happy, you get a guarantee that you’re going to love them. Just go to toptal.com/mixergy. All right. Let me give you the name one more time: T-O-P-T-A-L.com, Toptal.
Kavit: Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for having me.
Andrew: Hey, you’re a marketer. Before I get to this question that I wanted to ask you, what’d you think of the way that I just talked about Toptal? I want to learn from you about marketing.
Kavit: That’s a really good question. I think that it was good and you definitely had the intro, you mentioned that [inaudible 00:02:06] right at the beginning, in the middle and a couple of times at the end. And I think that there’s really no . . . T-O-P-T-A-L, that’s it. I remember it because you spelled it. It was engaging.
Andrew: What could I do even better? I never want to be as good as I am today. I want to be three times better, if not more. What could I do to make a sponsorship message like that better, knowing what you know about advertising?
Kavit: I’d like to hear a testimonial. I’d like to hear a story from somebody who’s used it, somebody who literally was about to lose a project maybe and completely succeeded from saving their time, their energy, and their money just using that service. And definitely, perhaps, a bite-sized interview of some kind with the person who’s behind it, literally a sound byte.
Andrew:I see. Get one of their case studies off their site and tell that person’s story and see if I can get a clip of the sponsor’s founder, maybe even the person who works with clients and have that on here, that’s a great idea. All right. I’m glad I asked you.
Okay. I told you before we started that I wanted to hit with a challenging question because I don’t want to just be another fawning interviewer. And so here’s the thing that I’ve noticed. I was hunting through your site and you’ve got a beautifully designed home page, obviously you’re a marketer, you know exactly what to do to get me into your funnel. You’ve got this big button that says, “Read our successful case-studies.” I click it, it takes me to a lead box, and I enter my email address.
The next page after that just says . . . it’s an Infusionsoft page, it says, “Thanks for filling our form, Friend,” upper case Friend, “We will contact you shortly.” I almost feel like you guys didn’t adjust the setting on that. For a marketer who’s going to set marketing up for other people, I would have expected that that confirmation page would have been spectacular instead of just a standard Infusionsoft confirmation page. What do you say to that? Why is it like this?
Kavit: It’s really simple. Two things; it’s a little test to see how people react to it. And I’ve found so far, this is really incredible, because I thought the same way that you thought. But my little test has found that people that have actually done that, in the email that they get immediately from me, it says, “Hey, thanks for requesting the case studies guide, and here’s the link to go and download it.” More people, because they’ve seen that page, for some reason or the other, have actually gone and checked it out.
Instead of wasting time reading a long thank you page that may have a video or some text to say, “Thanks for downloading it. I’m going to send it to you in a few minutes, check your inbox,” which is what everybody does and sure, you’ve got to tell them to do that. I just wrote on there something like, “We’ll contact you shortly,” and you know that if you fill out a form generally you’re going to get an email. So the first place you go if you really want to read fantastic case studies is to your email, and that’s why I think people are clicking a lot more. It doesn’t look that professional, but the results are a lot more powerful and that’s what I’m interested in.
Andrew: And you’re measuring those results or is this just, “Hey, we’ve got to get this up and running quickly, we’ll adjust it later, and then Andrew caught us before we adjusted”? Which one is it? Is it measured already and confirmed? Or is it, “We’ve got to run something and it’s working?”
Kavit: No, it’s measured. I know the date in my spreadsheet. I have an Excel spreadsheet and I put in the date as to when I change things. It’s like a little journal I have, sometimes it’s on spreadsheets, sometimes it’s in my Moleskine, but I write in there the date that I’ve changed a specific method, whether it’s asking a survey, and then I switch that survey off. So I know, and then of course my assistant, what she does is she looks at Infusionsoft and says, “Here’s how many leads we’ve captured essentially in the last day.” And you put that into the spreadsheet and then you go and have a look at the tags, because when somebody clicks on that case study and signs in Infusionsoft, it applies a tag. So I’ll be able how many people have opened that, and how they’re directly responding from that lead list.
Andrew: I see. And how often do you look at your numbers?
Kavit: Pretty much every day.
Andrew: Every single day you go in, so you know how many people joined your mailing list yesterday, for example.
Kavit: Right, exactly.
Andrew: Okay. What’s your biggest source of new email addresses into your funnel?
Kavit: Facebook advertising.
Andrew: What does it cost you to get a new subscriber that way?
Kavit: About $12 to get somebody who’s really, really good and ultimately goes on to purchase. You can spend a little amount of money and target the whole world and get a huge people for $3 or $4 if you really wanted to. But for me, it’s just about really targeting, so I’m not worried about getting a huge number of people right off the bat.
Andrew: Twelve dollars for an email address, or $12 for a customer?
Kavit: Twelve dollars for an email address.
Andrew: Oh, wow. All right. And then what do you charge?
Kavit: What do I charge for what?
Andrew: For your services. Actually, you know what? Let’s take a step back. I want to hear your full story and then maybe we can come back and explain what it is that you sell on insiderinternetsuccess.com and what you generate in revenue for every $12 subscriber who comes in. I want to get to know you a little bit better. You’re a musician who played this instrument that I don’t even know how to pronounce it. What is this drum?
Kavit: It’s a tabla.
Andrew: What does that look like?
Kavit: It’s like two drums basically. It’s not one; it’s two drums. The set is called the tabla. One drum is slightly bigger, has a black circle in the middle, the other one is smaller, it’s round and it has a black circle in the middle of that too. The smaller one is the treble drum, the bigger one is the bass drum. It’s a drum that originates from North India and I learned to play it, I guess, when I started off about 15 years ago.
Andrew: And that’s the music that you played when you wanted to be a professional musician?
Kavit: That’s right. I studied that for a while now.
Andrew: I don’t see a lot of Americans going out to watch tabla drumming at night. How are you going to get people to watch?
Kavit: You don’t really watch me. You watch the band. You watch the star performer. I’m the person that helps to make the music. You don’t really always just go to see a guitarist; you go to see the band. The guitarist is just there just as the drummer is, same kind of thing. Essentially falls into a percussion instrument.
Andrew: Okay. And so you are with this band and you are trying to get to perform and then how did that lead you to launch this business?
Kavit: I got to the point when I really wanted to perform but I was struggling for confidence. I was struggling because I couldn’t find musicians to work with, I couldn’t find musicians that I wanted to play with or they wanted to play with me, because we’d have to perform and practice before we got really well enough to go out there and gig enough, so I studied marketing. From a friend of mine, I got this book called 49 Music Promotion Ways. I kind of ripped the title and made it my own book in the future, but he basically taught me about marketing.
And I studied marketing because as an artist you need to learn marketing because that’s the only way you’re going to get your work out or your art out. Too many people I see struggle because they’re really good at what they do, but they don’t want to get involved in the business side of things. And I think you have to. I think you have to learn marketing to put yourself out there and feel confident about what you’re good at. So I studied that, I learned that, and I realized that I was doing the right things but I was doing it in the wrong way, I was going to forums but I was saying the wrong things. I was going to music open mics but I was speaking the wrong thing. So I started to do what I though was the better approach and I started . . .
Andrew: What did you say that was wrong at an open mic, or what did you say that was . . .
Kavit: I was asking for and requesting instead of asking to serve. I was asking for personal gain instead of asking to serve. What I was saying rather was, “I’m looking for a guitarist. Would you come play with me?” instead of saying, “Hey, you’re making some really, really good music. I could enhance it with this and it would probably help you stand out because people would be like, ‘Where’s that sound coming from? What is that sound?'”
Andrew: I see, I see. What about online when you were trying to get gigs? How would you rephrase what you were saying?
Kavit: I didn’t really get gigs online, I did all of my gigs essentially picking up a map, drawing up a little zone map. I basically drew lines in it and I marked them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, all the way to 12, 12 different zones and I started to think of all the venues in each zone and I started to contact them. This is like 10-11 years ago, I didn’t really use the Internet to do that, but I would pick up the phone, I would email them, I would go see them.
Usually all the meetings were done in person at the place. So again, instead of saying, “Call me here, pay me the gig,” the first few I did for free And I would start to gig initially, probably not make any money, it would attract a few customers, some of the places asked me to bring my people in order for me to perform there. I didn’t do that because I thought pay for play is really stupid method of doing it. I go to a lot of gigs. I started to perform with some really good musicians. I’ve played with Paul McCartney. I played with Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin.
Andrew: Really? How’d you play with Paul McCartney?
Kavit: We were at a festival in the UK. It was an Indian festival but he was there performing and I also performed with an ensemble after that. And we got connected through that, and then that led on to another work together, essentially, to led on to a couple of gigs in London. And Jimmy Page as well, at the Royal Albert Hall, he was playing with a concert for [Donovan] and Jimmy Page was there, I didn’t realize who this guy was, we were right downstairs in the basement in the musician’s canteen.
I was just there, eating my apple pie and crumble and custard, and here was this guy who walks in. All the other musicians are out there performing. My set, it wasn’t time for that And he walks in and I’m the only one sitting there, so he comes and he sits down there and he’s like, “Hi, I’m Jimmy.” I’m like, “Cool, I’m Kavit.” And he’s getting his dinner, I’m getting mine, and then after a little while it clicks me that I’ve seen this guy before, and this was Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin.
I started to do all these things and after awhile, people started to ask how I was doing what I was doing. How was I getting the gigs? How was I selling my music? How was I getting recorded on CDs? And I started to chat with people, give them the advice that they needed, help them with that. And then I realized that I was spending too much time doing that and I needed to find a way to bring up all that information together but not spend too much time doing it, which is when I launched into the idea of writing all this stuff down and then sharing it in an electronic format.
Andrew: And your website was?
Kavit: Insidermusicbusiness.com. At that time, it was coachkavit.com
Andrew: Coachkavit.com. I’m actually looking at old screen shots of it here, and a lot of it was about . . . actually I don’t see it right now but I remember when I was going through it I saw, “If you don’t have confidence as a musician, here’s what I can help you with,” and you were talking a lot about that, about not how to get gigs, but how to be more confident, right?
Kavit: Right. That was the first stage because that’s what I struggled with. And then it kind of jumped on ahead into how to get more exposure, how to sell more music, how to get more gigs.
Andrew: Where did I find that? Was coaching the first big product that you had?
Kavit: Yeah, it was a service because I was spending time chatting with people about it, essentially.
Andrew: And then what you had was . . . I’ve got all these different things that I found online about you. The other thing that I saw was you sold via PayPal. You would do four different tracks via email. Oh, I know, it was email coaching also, right? They’d pay you via PayPal and you’d give them the coaching via email.
Kavit: Exactly. Tried all sorts of cool things at that time to see how I could support people because I was doing the conversations and it was just taking too much time. So I was just experimenting, if you like, with all these different methods of supporting them.
Andrew: Here we go. Four-part email course is called Maximum Confidence, you’ve got Gold Spark for Success, 121 coaching, you’ve got Gold Spark for Success the Workshop, you’ve unlimited online tabla tutorials and help for life. You’re smiling. Does this take you back?
Kavit: Yeah. I don’t remember it at all, except for when you’re mentioning it. Fantastic.
Andrew: Also via PayPal, like I said, very basic website. I kind of get the feeling you were working using . . . what was that Microsoft product? FrontPage or something?
Kavit: It was usually Dreamweaver at the time. I remember that.
Kavit: I was using Dreamweaver, yeah. I knew nothing about coding. I learned it from a Dummies guide.
Andrew: And it was “Contact us” but my sense is it was really contact you?
Andrew: Were you making money with this?
Kavit: It took about a year until I transitioned into realizing that people actually wanted the real meat of the material, which is about the three things: getting more gigs, getting more exposure, selling more CDs. Until I started to put that stuff out there, then I didn’t really make that much. I sold a little bit of coaching here and there but the real sales started to come from the e-books that I was essentially selling.
Andrew: About making money and getting gigs, that’s what they cared about.
Kavit: Essentially the whole dream of quitting your day job and making your career as a musician.
Andrew: I see. Yeah, I can see a transition there because in the beginning you would teach people how to do public speaking with Sparkle, how to play the drum, how to get confidence and just ambiguous success training, and now you’re starting to get more and more focused. You actually transitioned from coachkavit to some other site? What was the other site, do you remember?
Kavit: Inarhythm.org before it was insidermusicbusiness.com
Andrew: Okay. I could have sworn there was even another domain. indiebizuniversity, was that also you?
Kavit: That was a product. That was a specific product that we had, like a member’s club kind of thing specifically bringing all of the different programs and products together to sell.
Andrew: Got it. Once you figured out what people were willing to pay for, how did you get them to come to your site and buy it?
Kavit: There are a lot of forums out there in the music world, and there is a huge amount of people that are constantly on them every day because they’re not gigging, they’re at home trying to figure out how to get gigs or waiting for their next gig. There are two types of musicians. The other one is the one who already has three-day jobs and has no time, so I didn’t really get in contact with those people until probably later down the road. But specifically those that were in forums, MySpace specifically as well, those people were always around and happy to answer questions and get free stuff and go to your website, and they were the people that I was conversing with.
Andrew: Okay. You were getting them to come to your site by helping them out. How much money were you making with this business?
Kavit: Ultimately, there was a point when I was hitting five figures a month and then once in awhile that would peak and hit six.
Andrew: That’s a lot of money for musicians who don’t have work, who need to know how to gig. They don’t have money.
Kavit: Yeah. Big, big challenge, and therefore the biggest challenge that I faced was constantly having to grow my database. And over four or five years of doing that business, I realized that the highest amount that I could charge for a product was probably around $300, and that was like a bundle of different programs that people would buy for $300. Because I had DVDs, I had coaching programs and I had membership sites. A key idea was that I had to get a constant flow of people to the site opting in, building a relationship with me, and then getting them to buy a product and therefore the struggle was about getting newsletter subscribers. And the only way that figure could grow higher was if I got people to buy more regularly, and the business was successful because of repeat customers.
Andrew: Do you recommend that anyone who is listening to us who wants to follow your lead not sell to customers who don’t have money so they could charge more?
Kavit. Absolutely. I just fell into it because it was what I knew and it was the simplest way to get something up. But if I were to start again I probably wouldn’t do that.
Andrew: Let’s suppose that someone’s listening to us and is thinking the same thing as you. I see a lot of musicians who need to get gigs, I want to help them out but maybe I shouldn’t pursue it because there’s not enough money there. I still love music. How do they pivot towards a customer base that still is close to what they know but actually has money?
Kavit: Well, the key is ultimately to just figure out exactly who that audience is, obviously, and then figure out exactly what it is that they want. And I think the success is in the marketing. If you can relay across the massive transformation, the value that you’re going to produce, the expected outcome, the outcome that they’re looking for, then people will buy. And I feel that I could have converted a huge amount of more musicians if I were doing that today because of what I know. And the key is in the marketing, the headlines, the way you communicate, to be able to share that transformation, to make it real and personable.
I feel like a lot of my marketing, when I look back at it at that time, was more big speak marketing, “contact us” versus “contact me.” Nothing was really hitting home and touching the hearts, and marketing ultimately is about that. Storytelling is what marketing is about, and I think if you can tell good stories and make your entire work personable, then no matter what your audience is, you’re going to be able to still deliver great value, get paid what you’re worth if you like, and also enjoy the fruits of all of that.
Andrew: I see. So you’re saying you would still have serviced this one audience base, the people who don’t have that much money because they had a big desire and you knew how to help them, but you would speak differently so you can generate more money from the stuff that you were selling them.
Kavit: I’d like them to know exactly what I’m delivering, and they need to know that and it’s my duty to be able to share that somehow.
Andrew: Look at this. I’m looking at a 2010 website, the home page of insidermusicbusiness.com is so clearly designed to just get people to join the mailing list instead of all the other stuff. Yes, you have a link to your blog and all the other things that many sites have, but you’ve put it on the bottom of the page. If anyone wants it they can find it, but otherwise you wanted them to get . . . let me see. “Discover the specific ingredients you need to develop a successful music career in 2011.” This was what you wrote in 2010, and then you gave them access to an exclusive e-book if they gave you their name and email address. That’s advanced stuff for back then.
Kavit: Well, I tried. I also was pretty smart, I think. I was quite savvy in learning things. I followed a lot of people and saw what they were doing and kind of ripped it off and use it in my industry, which Jay Abraham talks about being able to know what other industries are doing and if you could bring it into your own industry and revolutionize what’s going on, then you’ll be able to be a lot more ahead than where you are. My goal, as I mentioned, was to just grow subscribers. I knew that if I could do that, I managed to do that really quickly, and if I could do that and continue building a relationship with them through the practice of email and essentially teleseminars is what I did then before webinars, then I was able to connect with people a lot more.
Andrew: I do see that a transition happened when you shifted to this site where you suddenly had an opt-in form. In the beginning you didn’t even have an opt-in form, did you?
Kavit: Right, no. Didn’t even know what they were.
Andrew: All right. How did you create your first product? The mechanics of actually sitting down, writing it, what was your process?
Kavit: The actual e-book that I created, 49 Music Promotion Tips on the Internet, the idea was literally to open up a Word document and write. 49 Titles is what I put down. I brainstormed different ways that I had learned through the years to basically connect with people online who may have liked my music. I was friends with some of the people at CD Baby and I learned a lot about how they were marketing as well. I basically sat down on a piece of paper and wrote 49 ways. I started to, on Microsoft Word, write 49 different headings and I had a cover page, the contents and the end page, which was just a little bit of biography on myself. And I wrote and that was it. I just put it into a PDF and I put it online.
Andrew: And that was a freebie.
Kavit: Yeah. Initially it was a freebie until I learned about PayPal. Until I learned that actually I could start selling stuff like this and didn’t actually have to talk to people and get paid. I could still get paid for something even though I wasn’t there.
Andrew: You told April in the pre-interview that you built a 10,000-subscriber mailing list in a single year. What did you do that got so many people to join your mailing list?
Kavit: Forums. I was really, really active on forums. I would ask questions, I would get responses, I would respond to myself to different questions, I was just there giving so much advice on how you can get more exposure, sell more music and also again, more gigs, based on the things that I was learning. It was also about the confidence angle too. But in the signature you can have your URL and you can drive people to obviously go back and check out your site. Really basic stuff in my opinion right now, but I was doing it then and it was proof that it was working.
A lot of people on MySpace quickly found me and followed me based on the forums. So the forum would also have my MySpace signature and that would bring people back. And obviously MySpace was a little bit viral just like Facebook is, I guess. You become a friend and then your other friends see that you’ve become a friend and so forth, it grows like that.
Andrew: And with MySpace, once somebody becomes your friend, you could send them a message or I forget what they called it, and that gave you access to them also.
Kavit: Yeah, you’re able to mail in groups, which is fantastic as a feature. You could just to these massive mail-outs and reach a lot of people and invite them to come and check something out. Ten thousand sounds a lot but really when you have got some momentum going, it’s not that difficult to build that.
Andrew: And then I see that at some point, I guess also in 2010 or around there, you had Magnetic Marketing for Musicians, How to Get More Gigs, How to Make Six Figures with Your Music Business, and a free CD, Seven Steps To Making For Money From Your Music Career. That one, they just had to pay shipping or something on that one, right?
Andrew: Which was the one that you wrote first, and how did you put it together?
Kavit: I did a workshop in London and I called it Magnetic Marketing for Musicians. You spend hours and hours, sometimes days, creating the content for that. And I sold that workshop and I invited 15 musicians. I really wanted to record it, that was the main thing, and I booked this venue. It’s the first ever workshop I think I ever did and I was probably really, really nervous.
I basically taught the structure for how to build your fan base online, how to get more exposure and ultimately use that to get gigs and do all the other things. And I turned that into DVDs. I had a friend who had a video camera, he came along, we recorded the whole thing, and it became our DVD package. We made a little manual with all the slides and notes and everything. Something that I learned from watching a friend here in the UK do it in his business, but I did it in my industry and I basically . . .
Andrew: We’re talking about four hours, though. Most people can’t write one hour of presentation for a speech at someone else’s conference. How did you come up with four hours of material?
Kavit: Real case studies. Success stories of people that had followed this information and exactly how they did it. Trying to build my entire business is based on stories and case studies of people that have actually developed this structure of using my material, making it work and then showing others how to do it based on those people. I basically taught a lot about confidence, taught a lot about music marketing, gigs, promotion, etc., base on all of this stuff.
So I showed a campaign of how somebody had a CD, how they launched it, how they built a database of 500-600 subscribers, fans, etc., and then launched a campaign to sell that. And instead of the regular musician who just produces a CD and then sells 200 out of a 1,000 and has 800 for the next two years under their bed because they have no way to sell it because they’ve never done any marketing, I showed how you could get rid of all 1,000 essentially.
Andrew: Your price was really low, $67 bucks for a DVD that someone got in the mail?
Kavit: Musicians, man. Musicians.
Andrew: That’s what it is. And then you also had affiliate programs. Affiliates would get 30% of the sale if they did it. How effective were affiliates for you?
Kavit: Pretty much the main source of traffic after I did all of my advertising. So there were two main sources or three main sources. Initially the advertising on Google. Facebook wasn’t around for me to think about at that point, so Google was the main way I got a lot of people when I did advertising. And then the blog, the blog was a really good way of building my community and getting viral shares on some of the content out there, and then affiliates. Affiliates were really good because we’d create banners, we’d create emails, we’d create ideas and people would join just to somehow make up enough money to buy the product themselves. But in result, obviously, I got a whole lot of shares because of that, and that was really valuable.
Andrew: I did notice that one of your products was a membership site, and if somebody bought the highest membership level they could also get payouts from the affiliate program. So you were turning your customers too into affiliates and promoters.
Kavit: Yeah, we had really, really good customers. They were really raving fans and they would come back and buy a lot and we’d get a lot of case studies and success stories as a result of it. When something is so personal to you and you achieve a really good result, I think you form a bond and that’s what happened.
Andrew: You kept on growing this thing, you’re automating everything the way that you do today, and I was giving you a hard time about part of it at the top of the interview. How did you automate? Can you teach me little bit about what worked for you so that we who are listening to you could use some of it?
Kavit: Yeah, at the time it was slightly different to what I’m doing right now. I didn’t know about Infusionsoft at that time and I think it did exist, but it existed without the beautiful green that it has on it right now, it’s that black and . . .
Andrew: I know you used Constant Contact and you used something called profcs.com. What is that?
Kavit: It’s basically One Shopping Cart as some re-seller, I didn’t realize at the time but that’s what it is, it’s One Shopping Cart….
Andrew: Somebody else was selling one shopping cart as their own white-labeled product. Okay. I see.
Kavit:So oneshoppingcart.com was the main function for orders, for emails, auto responders, broadcast, affiliate programs, everything. What I was doing at that time, the model I had was a very simple model. People would subscribe and they would receive emails. All my weekly newsletters were essentially auto responders. They would go out, and it was called the Musicians Development newsletter. It was an every Monday thing. It would go out every Monday, every seven days. They would have articles in there and, more importantly, they would have my special promotion of the week. Based on what they clicked at that time, I would send them to the appropriate page. They would usually have one or two or three different promotions going on at the same time, just because I wanted to know at that time whether they were interested in getting gigs, selling music or the exposure stuff.
Now, I couldn’t track at that time who was clicking what, because One Shopping Cart didn’t do that. But I did send them to the page, I got them to buy, and if they bought, they were on different lists. These are not expensive products. So now I had different customers.
Also throughout the process, what I was doing in the newsletter was there were always surveys going on. I was always inviting people to tell me what they are. Are they guitarists? Are they drummers, are they piano players, are they singers, are they songwriters, are they violin players or managers even? I was getting all this information, and each time they were telling me all this stuff, we would manually take that person and put them into a different list. We didn’t email as such at that time, but we would segment them through that process. So they remain in the main list, but they were also in these different subsections. And so whenever we had the specific promotions, we would always ultimately direct them to what they are.
Andrew:So let’s suppose somebody in a survey said, “I am a guitarist.” You would put them into a guitarist mailing list because you didn’t have tags at the time. Today, you have tags with systems like Infusionsoft. I think even MailChimp does it. Terrific. They’re in a mailing list. How do you email them differently when you have a new promotion?
Kavit:This is what I did. There was this massive test, and it was one of my favorite moments when I realized that, oh my god, marketing was so personalized. This program that we talked about, Magnetic Marketing for Musicians, I had a sales page that would just sell this to every musician, any musician that wanted to learn how to get their exposure out and to grow themselves. They could buy that. And I sold it. I think it was the early part of a particular year, and I sold it.
I think it was like the early part of a particular year and I sold it. It sold pretty well. But then, the next time I launched it, I split it up into four different pages. So the same sales page, I just copied and pasted it four times, and to each one, I went back and edited slightly. So the headline in a few of the words in the page spoke; the first one directly to guitarists, the second one directly to piano players, the third one directly to singer/songwriters, and the fourth one directly to drummers. So these were my four key areas and remember the page is the same. The product is the same. The only key thing is now this is magnetic marketing for guitarists.
You know because I write on there, very clearly, that you’re going to get this product which is the same as the other products. It’s called for musicians. But as a guitarist, here’s another guitarist who has succeeded using this, and I was going to show testimonials of guitarists on that page. So now when I went back to 1ShoppingCart, my email campaign is directly for the guitarists, to the guitarist page and for the drummer to the drummer page and so forth. I actually found that my revenue, as a result mailing roughly the same amount of people, was literally about 1.5 times more than what I had actually generated, directly mass mailing it to musicians.
Andrew: Oh, wow. We actually today can do this so much faster. So much more easily, but we just need to know that it’s available, and see how to do it. I should tell anyone who is in Mixergy that we did Master Class with Dan Faggello, who walks through how he does it. He calls it database marketing, so if you look up database marketing on Mixergy, you’ll see it. We also have Jermaine Griggs whose know for doing this stuff and he does it for musicians also. And I said, “Can you show me the backend of your Infusionsoft?” and he did. He said, “Here’s how we do it. Here’s how we speak differently to different people. I’ll show you how I even send out a birthday card on their birthday, so that they feel more connected.” And both of those are available for Mixergy fans if you just do a search for either Jermaine or Dan, and for Dan you might want to type in database marketing. Do you know those guys?
Kavit: I know Jermaine. I don’t know Dan.
Andrew: Dan’s an up and comer who I think is breaking out of his world and coming into the information marketing world, really strongly. So the thing just works. I could see it evolving and growing. I could see you selling more. I can see you building up the business. I can see you really getting places, and then you said, 2008, you just stopped, why?
Kavit: Well, I made a mistake and I decided to basically… basically two reasons. The first one is I kind of lost all my energy on creating new products. I didn’t know what else to create. I felt like I had created every single thing I could, without losing quality and if I created more I was literally just repeating, and ripping apart and recreating stuff. That didn’t really excite me. So what excited me more was to form partnerships with people where I could bring in some experts, who maybe were really good in what they were doing, and use my brand to leverage their products and services.
So I started to do that and I started to experiment with that process and it was a lot more time consuming than having myself coordinate an entire product on my own. But I stuck through a couple and I started mailing those to my database, and the responses weren’t as great as I expected. People wanted me and the stuff I was giving. They wanted that value as opposed to me calling somebody else’s thing my own, but really giving them the opportunity to have my students to train. I don’t think they liked that as much. They lost a little bit of trust around that.
Not a huge amount, but I lost of energy and passion with regards to creating new product and that’s a really interesting point in a business. Because you can do several things, you can either quit completely, or you can continue to just keep selling, but then what about the people that have bought everything already. So I tried to figure something out for them, and I said that I’m going to create this little Insider Music Business members club, $20 a month, $10 if you join today, but $20 otherwise after the launch is over.
And you would get in there a forum, so you can communicate with all the other members, as well as myself, and you would get an eight page newsletter that would come to you written by me, put together by me, to you every month. Also, you’ll get access to every single product I made. That was the mistake because I invited, and had so many people join in the first month for free to try it out, that by month three, I would say 80% of them had actually left. Because they joined for all those products that I’ve got which I was charging for and they left. They left because the mistake I made was that I was giving everything away for free.
They never had to spend again. Musicians don’t have money and 23 months later I had 20% of members, who were my loyal fans essentially and after that, nobody else was there. So I’d given away all my product to pretty much every single person out there who had joined, and I was then stuck at month three, disheartened, because I’d lost 80% of members. But I was also stuck because after three or four months, I was stuck on how to write eight pages of content about the same thing every month, month after month. So I lost hope on that project.
That project was my failure project, if you like. I know we talked a little bit about that with April before. Because that was one of the things where I basically essentially had this great idea, that I thought was going to be the one that would really jump the business and it didn’t. So I left it for a couple of years, and I continued to promote the website. I continued to grow my database. I continued to for my auto-responder emails to go out, but I moved everything to AWeber, by the way which is also a platform I preferred, and I let the business go.
Andrew: So how would you have done that differently because that is a problem? Frankly, I do it. Linda.com does it. So many other people do it. You pay monthly and you get access to everything. What would you do instead?
Kavit: If I was to do it again right now, I would offer the components of the club, to be stuff that I could actually handle and fulfill. I would bring other musicians in to view them. I would bring other guests, experts in to view them. I think that would be a fantastic way to offer some fantastic value, refreshing value, but still hold the authority. I would also release and stagger the content stuff that I have. Because my stuff is not individual videos, like on Linda.com, if you like. They were compact courses. You could go from one course, complete the entire, and see a massive result in your business or in your music career, rather.
But for me, it was ultimately about staggering that. If I had staggered that better, and released the material after they had gone through several trials like in the first month, I would probably offer a selection of it, or even clips of the videos, so that they could see what they were going to get. But after they started getting into it, that I would probably release it. The other thing I would do, which I didn’t do, was offer longer term payment plans. So you could pay in six months in advance for a six month membership, and I think that would’ve got a lot more people in. Because it would have been a discounted price and I would have gotten a higher sum of money upfront.
Andrew: I see. That makes a lot of sense. I’m surprised that you didn’t sell half year and year subscriptions.
Kavit: Yeah, I don’t think I thought the pricing through as well as I should have, but it was also 2010 and 2015, I think my knowledge level is years and years and years apart.
Andrew: I bet, and so your highest year, what was the gross revenue?
Kavit: It was about $300,000.
Andrew: If you’re doing $300,000 revenue, how much of that do you get to take home?
Andrew: All in your pocket. You don’t have employees. It’s just affiliates that you pay at 30% each.
Kavit: Affiliates, there were employees. They were basically people that were managing customer support, so there were two people for that. Then there was somebody who would manage the relationship between people who had purchased, and then the fulfillment company. So there was one person that managed the orders relationship.
Andrew: Can I tell you something? One of the things that we did that we researched about you was we said, “Is his stuff legitimate? Does anyone think it’s a scam?” And someone on the team found a Ripoff Report about you and I said, “I better know this. This is a problem. He’s on Ripoff Report and someone’s complaining.” Then I kept scrolling, and I saw that you responded to the person by saying, “This person and I have gone back and forth via email using Zendesk. That’s our help center stuff. He asked for something. We tried to help him out.”
And then you told that person, “Here’s my personal gmail email. Contact me directly and I will make sure you’re happy.” And sure enough they contacted you, and then they posted back on Ripoff Report that they were happy. But I hunted that down. I said, “Maybe this is it.” What kind of person do you think I am that you’re coming here? You’re graciously doing an interview with me and instead of me saying, “Thank you for doing this interview,” I go, “What can I hunt down that this guy did wrong that I better be aware of.”
Kavit: I have to say I like Ripoff Report and I hate being on it. Because you can’t delete it once it’s on there. But what it does for the consumer is fantastic. You can hear from real people, and not everybody is perfect, and I believe that and this is not a copout. But I think that if you’re on there, and you can solve an issue and respond, then it shows that you’re there. You’re not somebody whose hiding behind… I think if you think that somebody’s 100% perfect and doesn’t have anything bad about them, there’s always something to be wary about.
Andrew: Right, what do they do? Maybe they change their name or their company name to keep you from finding it. But the one thing that I don’t like about Ripoff Report is that, it’s just not organized nicely. It’s hard to see what’s going on the page.
Kavit: I think they’re loaded with SEO-related stuff. I think initially when they were designed and created; they were created to basically just get, as quickly as possible to ruin your top ten to top ten searches, basically. Yeah, it’s not nice at all.
Andrew: But it could use a lot of work there. But I guess their SEO worked because they do come up a lot for me. I wonder how many other interviewers will say, “Let me just type the guy’s name in and Ripoff” or here’s another one that sometimes works, Sucks is one that we do. Here’s another that we do to check things out, and for you Sucks just brings up a Stitcher interview as the top result.
What is it, Scam? But Scam is a hard one to use. Because so many people search for Scam that affiliate marketers will buy up the word scam or just top that rating for it. Then what happens is you don’t look at someone who says, “This is a scam.” You see someone’s page that says, “Is it a scam? Absolutely not, you should buy. I’m an affiliate because it’s so great. Click and buy.”
Kavit: Yeah, a lot of people used to create review sites, as well. Like, if you type in the word review and then there’s this page that talks about, “Do not buy this product because of this,” but actually it’s an affiliate page for something that somebody’s trying to sell.
Andrew: So from what I’m seeing, a lot of people like you online including this guy who thought that… I guess his name is Josh, including him. No, yeah, it is Josh, including Josh who complained. All right, so you did well with this business. It was time for you to move on and at some point, you created Insider Internet Success. What was the idea for that? Where did that come from?
Kavit: Again, another organic thing for me. I think it was the next stage of what happened, and while I was talking about the music and stuff like that, one of my goals was to leave the business and travel, and be able to come back or check in anywhere. Because it was an online business and still be generating the right amount of revenue, without having to actually sit at the computer and do something. I did that. I did that for eight to 12 months. I travelled a lot of Africa, a lot of Asia, etc. and it was fantastic.
I learned that I had a good structure and system in place. That not only was I bringing people to the site, but I was nurturing and converting them. And so when people started to learn about this, in different communities here and I would attend entrepreneur meetings and stuff like that, in London. I started to be invited to speak at various different conferences; marketing conferences, sales conferences, internet conferences, etc. I did that for about two years. I did about eight to 12 different conferences, within that two years.
I go to meet a lot of people. I was now another entrepreneur, like many other entrepreneurs. Not some super successful guy, but somebody who I felt was meeting other people, learning from other people. That’s really what my goal was in that time. Because all I needed was the music business. I’m a musician. I don’t really know much else. So I spent that time doing that. But in the process, I started getting invitations to go and meet with people, at their offices to consult them. They wanted help on how they could market their business essentially, how they could put in the right purchases, to free themselves up to do other things.
I did those consulting gigs. I worked with a lot of different small businesses. I helped them double/triple their sales, whenever was required. I put in the right email marketing. They’d never had email marketing. It was a whole new concept to them. For me, it was stuff that it was my bread and butter for the last few years. Essentially if you look at it, all my income from the music business came from my email marketing because I had to build a relationship with them.
So I was really good at that. I would really enjoy that process. Then two years after, so about 2011, Insider Internet Success, basically I came up with the name on the fly. The insider word stuck in the music business. I thought it would stick with this, and I thought let me just label it and put it on, and get the domain, and I set that up. But my goal with that was really to first write a blog, and second sell courses. Because I knew I could sell courses because I did it in the music business.
But the courses I wanted to sell were workshops. Because I thought, if I get people in the room, I had more energy to teach them there specifically about their business, than if I formulated courses. So I started doing courses and running workshops. Then I started to put everything together into courses. I realized just a few of the different things I was really good at were Facebook and ebook marketing. So I put together two different courses on these two different things, and the third thing was email. So then the third thing that followed with the third course was email.
I basically started running webinars. I was shocked that people on these webinars, people that I’d met at entrepreneur meetings, became my JV affiliate partners, and they were doing some promotions for me. They were inviting people to join me on a webinar and I was presenting on these webinars and, of course, selling my product at $1,000 apiece. So I was selling these different courses at $1,000, and then having tons and tons of technical issues because people couldn’t get into their account and so forth. I got tired of that, but I continued selling.
Andrew: You mean they couldn’t get into their online account, to watch the course that they paid for from you?
Kavit: Yeah, some issues with the membership side and stuff like that came up. We fixed those ultimately. But initially it was heartache because it was spending hours and hours trying to solve all these things. We’d do a webinar. For some reason something went wrong, and 25 people had bought, and they all want to get into their account immediately. But anyway that’s just a story for another day. But I guess, essentially what happened is, all these people enjoyed the courses.
The reviews and case studies were fantastic. After two or three years of doing this, I also earned pretty well out of it. But it was like a book. You buy a book. You put it on the shelf, and then nothing ever happens with that book. It could be years before you go and revisit that book, and when you’ve revisited that book, depending on what book it is, it’s out of date. So the stuff that you learn about Facebook, Facebook is ever changing. I got tired of constantly updating the course. Kindle is, obviously is also ever changing, so I got tired of updating that.
Email is my one that’s always worked because how you write is how you write. Storytelling and life about storytelling is not really going to change as much. But these people weren’t action-ing the material as much as I hoped and thought they did. Especially because I felt that I’d benefitted enough in my music business. But I really wanted to help people apply these same principles for them to free themselves up. Because I could free myself up, if I wanted to.
I’d already proven that, and for my own personal sake. So the fact they weren’t using really annoyed me, and I left all those courses and I thought, “I’ve got to find another way of doing it. I don’t mind that I don’t have hundreds of students.” That was my first goal, to have hundreds of students. I beat that goal. I don’t want that anymore. So I turned the model the other way and I said, “Forget workshops because people come to the workshop. They do extremely well for three days and then they leave, even if they have a month of support after, and they don’t do anything with it.” They buy these courses and they don’t do anything with it. So let me try something else.
That’s when I started to open my team to other people. Because I already have these people that I’d developed and found for my businesses; the developers, the designers, etc. and I said, “Let me bring them together and let me go and find, or let the clients who actually are serious about exploding their business, sit down with me and let’s structure their business in the right way using the right predictable marketing, as a service.”
Andrew: As a service, but it’s not a consulting service where people can do anything they want. The idea is I’m going to prepackage this collection of services, web design, email marketing, a certain system only use Infusionsoft. It’s not just any software that you want. We will set this whole thing up for you, and you can use it to promote the products that you’re selling.
Kavit: Yeah, exactly. So the first step is to figure out exactly what it is that you have that you’re selling; what products, service, software, or widget, whatever it is. And then to get really clear about who that is for, and then to get really clear about, what is the result that…?
Andrew: And you were helping them do that? Help them come up with the result, what it’s about, and all that?
Kavit: Well, you should know the result that your product and service is going to bring to people. You should know the change, the transformation, the outcome that people if they purchase that thing they’re going to experience ABCD. My job is to help you elicit that, if you don’t know it or to put it in the right words, articulate it in the right way. So that when you do build a marketing funnel, a sales funnel to capture, nurture, and convert these people, into actual customers we do it in the right way. We speak the right words. We target the right people. We approach them in the right way so that essentially you get buyers.
Andrew: And so how much do you charge for all of that?
Kavit: So the Automated Business System which is what it’s called, the Automated Business System is a 12-month process because although we set it up and it takes six weeks to set it up, I don’t want to just leave you and say, “Here you go. Now go build a business.” The way I’ve structured it, again, because of this whole idea of what I’ve learned, is that there’s a follow-up of 45 weeks. So six weeks, plus 45 weeks, 52 weeks, if math that’s correct and that’s basically constant mentoring and guidance, to make sure you’re doing the right lead generation work. So that entire 12-month process is $18,000.
Andrew: They pay over time. If it doesn’t work what happens?
Kavit: The guarantee that I put on the table is that you will get 100K, in sales in 12 months. So you will basically pay 18K, and you’ll get 100K. And if for some reason you don’t make 18K in 12 months, even the minimum, to say that I’ve broken even and I walk away with a good marketing system then we refund.
Andrew: So if I make $18,000, you refund?
Kavit: If you don’t make $18,000.
Andrew: So if I hit $17,000 you say, “Keep the system as I built it. You still have your Infusionsoft account. You still have your WordPress account. You still have the designs, and I’ll give you your $18,000 back?”
Kavit: Absolutely. Now I don’t go out there and say that, but if you’re unhappy and you’ve talked to me and say, “You promised me $18,000, and I’ve only made $17,000. I’m $1,000 short and I want a refund, fair enough.” But I’ve never seen that happen because people are so thrilled with the development. I’ve also never seen it happen where they’ve not generated that, actually.
Andrew: What if halfway through they say, “You know what? I’m done. I’ve got everything I need. I don’t want to pay anymore?”
Kavit: It doesn’t work that way.
Andrew: It’s the whole year working with you.
Kavit: Yeah, it’s a full year is the structure. You’ve got to be committed, otherwise there’s no point. I’m investing my time and energy also, so there you go.
Andrew: You know what I’ve heard a lot about this product high service, from a guy named Brian Casel who says that “Instead of trying to create brand new software that does everything, people don’t want to even use software. They don’t want to learn how to use software, and learn how to do what you’re trying to teach them, just do it for them. Charge them on a monthly basis.”
Or in your case annual and give them a done-for you service, where if they have an issue with the design, they could come back to you and you could fix it. If they need a certain marketing channel you do it for them, and he does it for restaurants. He has something called Restaurant Engines which creates webpages just for restaurants. You’re talking about doing it for online marketers. I think this whole concept could work for other areas, too. Find a market say you’d do it for them and then create that service.
Kavit: Absolutely. I think the more niche you can become, the better it’s going to be, and the easier it’s going to be, to dominate and sell.
Andrew: All right, so give me an example of somebody who you’ve helped like this.
Kavit: Yeah, there’s a doctor and her name is Dr. Julie Coffee [SP]. She is a medical doctor in the UK. She only started a few months back, so I’m giving you a very recent, new example. She basically created a weight-loss course. She wanted to be different to Weight Watchers and Slimming World and she wanted to really stand out and show the science behind it, and how you could basically transform your body through that. She had this course. It wasn’t working very well.
It wasn’t selling very well. The videos were very badly made, and so our process was to get together and write up a funnel. A systematic process for how she could get people engaged with her. So we created a free report she would give away. She had a landing page. We basically put together a series of emails, and those emails are predictable. They go out every day or every few days, depending on how the structure is written, and they communicate with the audience about how to lose weight, essentially. They also tell stories about Julie and her case studies and then they direct them to the sales page, where on the sales page she sells her course for ?59.
And she’s based in the UK, so her thing is pounds. She wants to be in pounds and she also sells a monthly club, where people have these accountability webinars, every week with her. Now here’s a basic system, a very, very simple basic system. All she’s got is the free report, the sales page, the emails in between, and the product which is a weekly drip membership site, for 8-12 weeks, whatever it is and she sells this full course.
Andrew: I’m on her site right now. It’s a WordPress site. I see that you’ve written some of the articles or someone on your team has written some of the articles. It’s called UberHealthBlog.com.
Kavit: Yeah, she writes all the content herself.
Andrew: Okay. I see the ?59 to get the Uber Slim Basic package or for Uber Slim Premier it’s ?59 plus ?10 per month, and that way they join up. You created the WordPress page?
Andrew: Did you create the sales page that I’m looking at, with her prices?
Andrew: All right, the membership site, I see in the upper right hand corner, I get to login. You’re using actually I can’t tell. That’s Wishlist Member?
Kavit: It’s using a plugin from WPMU.
Andrew: Those are great guys. I interviewed the founder and I’ve gotten to know their software. I hired one of their guys to help manage Mixergy. So you implement that for her. She doesn’t have to…?
Kavit: No, no. We did all of that. All of the creation was us, all of it, every single bit. She just records her own videos. What’s that?
Andrew: All she has to do is write?
Kavit: All she does is write because she wants to write. But she created her own content, of course. I don’t create the product. I don’t know how to do that for weight loss.
Andrew: She’s using PayPal. She would set that PayPal button up, and then you connect it to the WPMU plugin?
Kavit: Yeah, we setup the PayPal button, in that instance.
Andrew: Oh, cool. All right, now I’ve got a sense of how you’re working. I think this makes a ton of sense. But how many clients can you handle like that? If you’re doing all of this stuff for them, can you really scale this business?
Kavit: I have two project managers at the moment, and at the end of the day in my opinion, you’ve got to design the business about how you want to live your life. If there’s enough that’s going on, and you’re meeting whatever goals you have at the current moment, then it’s completely cool. I want to build a holistic business that I could do and would be happy doing.
Because I’m totally… what makes me get up and out of bed every day is to sit down and write a funnel. It’s just makes me come alive to think about how you can take a product that can really transform somebody and get it out there. Because if these things aren’t out there, then I feel like I have a duty to do that. I feel like I have a duty to actually take a product that has meaning.
That has value. That has results to people that actually need it. Otherwise there are all these people, Julie, and so forth that have fantastic products, but are not reaching enough people, especially if you look at her content and I feel like it’s really, really good.
Andrew: How do you get people to come to their sites or is that their responsibility?
Kavit: It is their responsibility, but we draw up a marketing plan with them. So we look at methods that are paid. Methods that are free essentially. We look at short term, midterm, and long term goals or methods of marketing. So there’s Facebook advertising which is paid advertising. Then there’s social media work, and then there’s partnership work, like going out there and writing on big media websites, or writing with joint venture partners and their email lists.
So she does all of this stuff. She, for example, is in the process right now writing for LifeHack.org. She’s targeting a lot of women’s websites that are moms, and they want to lose weight after they’ve had their baby essentially, so there are lots of different target audiences that she’s going for to write for, which is driving traffic back to her site.
Andrew: Are you still selling content too, like the Traffic System? Is that still for sale?
Kavit: Yeah, there are some customers who don’t want to write the blog themselves. So we’ve put together a small team of writers, and for that service, we basically only generally offer it to those that are in that particular program.
Andrew: I see. So if you guys are doing my marketing, but I also need you to do some writing for me, I can pay $399 a month and you’ll do my writing.
Kavit: Yeah, what I’ve found is that you’ve built a lot of trust with me, and I’ve built trust with you as a customer essentially, if you’ve invested in this process. That you already need the content for your site, and I’ve already built a great team that you can trust. All I’ve got to do is add a writer, and someone to manage that writer and produce really good content. Because we’ve produced your report anyway, so we know what you’re about. So that’s why we add that service as an add-on layer. Not everyone takes it. There’s no need to take it, either. There’s no sell for it. It’s just that if you want it, it’s there.
Andrew: I really like this process of creating a business. The idea of finding someone’s problem is something we’ve talked a lot about on Mixergy. But most people would either create a how-to guide or book, or CD or membership site, to teach their customers how to solve the problem for themselves, and frankly I do that. That’s what Mixergy is about. The other approach is to say, “I’m just going to create better software. One that isn’t so hard, one that works together with everything, so why should someone have WordPress and have Infusionsoft, etc. I’ll just create on package.” Frankly HubSpot did that for marketing and that’s another direction, but it gets really hairy. It takes a lot of money and it takes a lot of time. You can see HubSpot is a publicly traded company that needed a lot of money to get there.
The third way is the one that you’re talking about. Where you say, “Look, these tools are already out there. We know how to use them. People will pay us, and we’ll set the whole thing up for them, and make sure that it works. So that they don’t have to figure out new software on their own, and we don’t have to create simpler software for them.” I like that process a lot. What kind of revenue can you make? What kind of revenue did you make with that in 2014?
Kavit: I don’t really know that right now.
Kavit: That’s not also something that I do share. Yeah, as in, I don’t remember it off the top of my head. But I know that we’ve put at least 80 people through that process.
Andrew: Okay, 80 people who are paying roughly $18,000.
Kavit: Yeah, roughly $15. Yeah, it’s basically I have a client count, as to how many clients we can manage. And I know that on a monthly basis, when we hit that client, we basically can’t take more people. We put them on a waiting list, or we take deposit and put them in a future month and that happens quite a bit.
Andrew: So you’ve generated more than $1 million so far in one year with this business.
Kavit: Right, that’s for sure. My concern is basically if I cannot deliver on time, and as promised, then I won’t work with client. It’s not about money. It’s about the value.
Andrew: All right, I think I’ve got everything here. I’d love to have you come back on, and maybe talk more about how you build funnels, would you be willing to teach how to build a funnel and how your system, too?
Kavit: Yeah, absolutely. We could go through a really detailed process.
Andrew: All right, so maybe we’ll do like a screen share or something. For now I’ll say to the audience, if you’re listening and you want to know about that, let me know what you’d like to know from a follow up to this conversation. What specifically you’d want us to talk about, and what specifically you’d want us to learn? But this has been fantastic. It’s been eye opening. I’d heard a lot about you. I knew what you were up to, I thought. I didn’t realize really until I started doing research, exactly how the business worked, and what it took to get here. Congratulations on getting here. The website is InsiderInternetSuccess.com, right?
Kavit: Absolutely. Thanks very much.
Andrew: Cool and if someone wants to connect with you, what’s a good way for them to say thank you for doing this interview?
Kavit: Drop me an email. Again, I check all the emails, just because I want to be in front with my customers. It’s one of the things that I’ve always done from the early days. So go to InsiderInternetSuccss.com. The email address is Kavit@InsiderInternetSuccess.com. Feel free to drop me an email there or you can find me on social media at Twitter also @Kavit Haria.
Andrew: All right, Kavit. Thanks so much for doing this interview. Congratulations on the success. Thank you all for being a part of it. Bye, everyone.