How TWiT Is Bootstrapping A “CNN For Geeks” – With Leo Laporte
on Aug 5, 2009 - 10:54 AM PSTDo you believe you can create an online show that pulls in a bigger audience than mainstream media?
Leo Laporte is proving you can. In fact, he’s doing it right now. With 150,000-190,000 people downloading each episode of his show, this WEEK in TECH, he already has a bigger audience online then he did when he worked for Tech TV. Plus, unlike the work he does on mainstream media, Leo owns everything he puts out on his online network, TWiT.
To help you learn how a young upstart can take on the big guys, I invited Leo on Mixergy to show you how he did it.
The FULL program
Prefer audio? Great! “Right click” here for the MP3 format.
(Can’t see videos? Go to Mixergy.com)
Video excerpts
About Leo Laporte
Leo Laporte is the founder of TWiT, which produces some of the most popular podcasts in the world including this WEEK in TECH, Security Now!, net@nite, and this WEEK in GOOGLE. He hosts a national radio technology talk show on the Premiere Radio Networks.
Edited excerpts
One day, Leo’s old boss said, “See ya!”
Control became really the number one issue for me. People know me mostly from Tech TV, which for six years was a cable channel devoted to technology, kind of the Food Channel for geeks.
We spent six years building that thing with my blood sweat and tears. Hundreds of us really put our love, and heart, and soul into making something that we thought was really good, and they sold it right out from under us. It was like, “See ya. Thanks for your hard work. Good luck.”
He got a new job, but it wasn’t full time
I had the good sense, having been in media for 30 some years, to be prepared for this eventuality, and I had already kind of resurrected my old radio show. So I wasn’t really out of work.
What really happened, which is great, is that I was working weekends on the radio show. I was doing one week a month in Toronto. I had three weeks off.
He discovered podcasting
A kid named Matt Bishoff called me up and he said, “Are you doing a podcast to your radio show?” I said, “What is that?” He explained it to me. It was pretty easy. It just meant taking the recordings I was already putting on the Internet and putting an RSS feed out for them.
So by that night I had a podcast. So my first podcast was actually the radio show. That was in October, 2004.
The first episode happened spontaneously
All of these people I had worked with at Tech TV were just hanging out in a bar after Mac World Expo. And I had a recorder with me. We recorded 20 minutes. And I just put it up on the net, because I already had the podcast. I put it up on the net and like 10,000 people downloaded it.
Since his job left him with spare time, he started a business
I took those 15 days a month that I wasn’t working and started a business. I worked my butt off, and started doing podcasts. I, in effect, did the same kind of stuff I had been doing all along with ‘the man,’ but without the man. I became the man.
I started doing the podcasts and this has turned out to be a huge success. I stopped doing the TV show in Canada about a year ago, and I started live video streaming my podcasts. And this thing has just grown, and grown, and grown, and it has been quite successful.
The business did well because he already had an audience
I am very lucky because I started with a mainstream media audience, which I was able to fairly easily move over to the new media, because my beat is technology. It is pure luck.
I had a following from Tech TV. I had a following from the radio show. They were gearheads, so they could figure out how to download a podcast. They actually liked the idea of downloading audio from the net.
So yeah, it started off pretty big. In fact, TWiT grew very, very fast to the biggest podcast out there, and I think it still probably is with between 150,000-190,000 downloads each show.
At first, he thought donations would pay for the show
Initially I thought we would ask for donations. We would do it like NPR or PBS. We would ask our viewers, our listeners, to donate.
My real goal was never to take ads — have it kind of ideologically and ethically pure. This would be the ideal way: the people who listen to it pay for it. It is a direct transaction.
But what I learned very quickly is that most people are conditioned to free radio, advertising supported media. And really, I would say, only about one or two percent of the people who listened to the show were actually donating. It wasn’t enough to grow the show.
But advertising proved to be a solid revenue stream
For the first couple of years it made nothing. In year three, we started getting some advertisers, and then more advertisers, and more advertisers, and it’s gotten to the point where we have a very solid revenue stream from advertisers.
I wouldn’t have five employees if we didn’t have a solid advertising revenue stream.
I don’t take a salary. From time to time I’ll take some money out, but I don’t really make a whole lot of money on this. Mostly for me I think it’s a business that, in the long run, I think I’m going to make some money on. But right now we’re still in the building mode, and because I make a living on the radio show, I like to put as much money as I can back into the product.
And the cost of producing online shows is very low
I think it costs us several hundred dollars to do an hour of programming. The cheapest television show I ever did, which was “Call For Help,” I think cost $2600 bucks an hour to produce. So we are 1/5, 1/6 as much as the cheapest programming in history.
And if you look at CNN, I’m sure they cost probably $5-$10,000 an hour.
The plan is to be the CNN of tech
I believe that the future of what I’m doing is to be the CNN of tech.
I’d like to see us build out the studio, go 24/7 live with a mix of programming and news. Perhaps because we’re a global operation — 30% of our audience is outside the U.S. — we’d do some of the programming from the U.S. but also have broadcasters in Australia, in England, around the world. I’d like to do a hand-off every, you know, 4-6 hours to another studio around the world. And we could have that way 4-6 other satellite bureaus and make it a 24/7 operation.
I think the thing that we can do that’s different is that we can do CNN for pennies on the dollar. So we don’t have to generate their size of revenue. We don’t have to run the number of commercials that CNN does. But I think we can deliver very reliably a really great product to an audience that really wants it.
Full program includes
- You’ll hear Leo talk about what YOU need to do to create a successful online show.
- You’ll learn more about what it costs to do quality shows online.
- You’ll see how Leo produces a quality show — using production elements that used to only be available on TV — for pennies on the dollar.
- You’ll watch me shamelessly ask to appear on one of Leo’s shows.
Suggested comments
- If you listen or watch Leo’s shows, what do you think of them?
- Was there something I should have included in the text excerpts?
- I’m going to include this story in the first Mixergy book. Do you see any inaccuracies?
- Was this the best freakin’ interview I ever did or what?!
Thank you Tyler Crowley for introducing me to Leo!
Thank you Rosie Bernardo for fixing so many of the typos in this post!
View Comments to “How TWiT Is Bootstrapping A “CNN For Geeks” – With Leo Laporte”
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August 5th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
This definitely is one of the best produced shows. It's fantastic.
August 5th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Take that great idea…. Mixergy 24/7
August 5th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Enjoyed the interview. Leo is such a great guy – His Twit show is a must listen for anyone in tech.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Another great interview, I was wondering if you could give us the stats of Mixergy.com, just so we could know how big is this community.
I think you are a fantastic interviewee, and now the only two shows I watch/listen every episode (tough schedule here at the house :) is Mixergy and No Agenda, a fantastic podcast with John C. Dvorak (he does TWIT too) and Adam Curry (founder of mevio). It is hilarious and they have info and insights you can't find anywhere else – I recommend you interview them.
waiting for new episodes
August 5th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Great show, Andrew. I remember watching Leo on The Screen Savers nearly 10 years ago.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Wow. Best interview yet. I would really want to know more about Leo's setup.
August 6th, 2009 at 1:39 am
Oh wow….I'm working on an article about Leo on the Viralogy blog, and amidst my research I realized that he just got covered on Mixergy!
It's truly an coincidence triggered by Leo's blow up towards Arrington recently. I'll send some folks over here though :D
August 6th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Loved the quality of this one Andrew, even though I only ever listen to the audio versions.
When Leo first spoke about going live 24/7 I wasn't convinced, however, by the end of the interview I was a believer. I too believe the mainstream media is ignoring large parts of their potential audiences, because they are dumbing down their programming to the lowest common denominator and unfortunately when one network does it, the others seem to follow. Well at least in my part of the world anyway.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:08 am
I would watch the TWIT online channel all the time. I always wished that tech tv would cover more than video games. Do gadgets, industry news, the financial areas of tech, etc. But it never really happened. This could fill that void.
August 6th, 2009 at 7:44 am
[...] Since Leo Laporte has so much under his belt, I definitely skipped through a lot of the stuff that he did, including more shows, awards and books. But @andrewismusich (a good friend of Viralogy) wrote a song on Leo, so he must be very important. If you really want to get to know more about Leo Laport, check out his very recent interview with Mixergy. [...]
August 6th, 2009 at 10:02 am
He really does. I couldn't help but bring it up (over and over) in the
program. It's amazing what can be done online.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:02 am
;-) Maybe someday. Right now I need to work on editing and posting each
interview faster. Video is a bear.
By the way, Leo was able to create this with no post-editing. All the work
he did was in real-time. That's inspiring.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Right on. He really is worth downloading and subscribing to. I never
miss an episode of TWiT, the flagship show.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I don't know how big the community is here because I accidentally removed my
Google Analytics 2 months ago and haven't had the patience to figure out how
to get it back up. It's frustrating, but I don't care that much because I
don't have any advertisers and my measure of success is the quality of my
interviewing skills (which I'm still improving), not my audience size (which
can't be insanely large any way).
I would love to interview Adam or John. If you know either one, please
introduce me. If not, I'll see if I can meet them directly.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:10 am
I live in LA, where he's on the radio on the weekends.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Every once in a while he posts a video about how his system is rigged. But I
don't think there's a single place on his site that has all those
behind-the-scenes videos, so they're hard to find.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Great article. Thanks for including my work in it.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Thanks. I'm an audio guy too.
August 6th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I don't think Leo is doing much with gadgets. For that, I usually watch
CNet. They seem to test every gadget I'm curious about and because their
shows are so tightly edited, you can watch them quickly.
August 6th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Yeah I watch CNet too once something is out. It really the upcoming gadgets I am really interested in. Even though I am not the biggest Apple fanboy, I am curious about what the market potential is for the tablet. I want to know about gadgets that aren't even out yet.
August 6th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Heard some of the interview live on my iPhone's twit.am feed — which is odd because I think his commitment to livestreaming is CURRENTLY TWiT's Achilles' heel. I've been less satisfied with his podcasts since his move to liveswitching and following multiple chat feeds. His attention is more fragmented, and he misses points his co-hosts made the previous week — or worse, ten minutes before.
Balanced against the slight decline in the quality of the finished audio product, we have a very good live video product — viewed by a tiny fraction of the audience — and no systematic way of timeshifting and polishing these videos. Generally, if it's not “appointment television” then people are trending toward viewing video on demand. ESPECIALLY on the Web. Live streaming's important for 140-character text but not full video.
I hope that if he wants to be the CNN of the Web, he focuses on the Web's strenghths, not cable nets'.
August 6th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Really enjoyed this show. I liked Leo's style and how open he was with the logistics of running TwiT — would've liked to learn more about the behind the scenes workings of it. Also, would've liked to know how much capital Leo had to put in up front to get this rolling, even considering that they never were in the red.
All in all, great topic and would be interested to see more along the lines of new media (this and Jib Jab rocked).
Thanks!
August 6th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Maybe you could invest a little time in seeing if Leo is amenable to Mixergy podcasts being part of the TWiT network? Leo needs good content and frankly, I'd rather you were busy making resources to help me a build a business than learning how to handle audio and video ;)
August 7th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Great Great Interview! He is very inspiring for me. I am trying to build my own video podacast and every little nugget in that interview is priceless. Thanks Andrew and Leo!!
August 7th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I'm curious about
that tablet too. I don't feel like I need another device in my life, but I
can't rule it out until I see it. Apple has a way of making me reconsider my
needs.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
I can't speak for Leo, but I find that doing my interviews live really helps
me. The live audience points out issues that I never would have considered,
plus they fire me up and make the interviews much more fun for me.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Great question. Can't believe I didn't ask how much it cost him to build
TWiT. I got the sense it was built from revenues and that he didn't need to
put up any money, but I should have asked about it.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
I'll keep checking in with him to see if he's up for having me on. I think
it'll help to have my listeners/viewers ask him too.
And you're absolutely right about where my time and attention should go. It
should be spent helping you build your company, not in editing.
Hopefully my new editor, Paola, will take more of that work off my hands. So
far it's been going great.
August 7th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
This comment means a lot to me. Hope what we talked about can help you with
your vision.
August 8th, 2009 at 7:35 am
As you mentioned at the top of the interview, the production quality is indeed superb. I don't usually watch the TWiT Shows as video (opting for downloading the podcasts as audio-only), so I was extra impressed. This is, methinks, setting a new standard for video production of web-based media.
As an avid listener to Leo and TWiT shows, I've basically pieced together his story over the years, but I was interested to hear how scrappy the operation was in the early years. And I am surprised to learn that Leo doesn't pay himself a salary at all. Oddly, I've often remarked how Leo spends so freely on gadgets and technology, which, especially during a recession, can almost seem like rubbing it in, for the less-than-wealthy audience. But I suppose if you're not getting a salary, you can afford new computers and cameras and stuff.
In my opinion, what makes Leo's shows different from other web vids is that he endorses all the advertisers himself, and reads the ad copy in the style of old radio announcers. In many shows, even favourites like Keith and The Girl or Cranky Geeks, the model for advertising is traditional “interrupt” ads wedged into the programming. I'd much rather have a show that is sponsored by a single advertiser, who offers a promotional code or free trial, rather than simply blaring a carpet-bomb ad. I suppose this has much to do with the focused demographic of the audience — if you're conducting an interview about web design, maybe an ad for SquareSpace is appropriate.
Also, this interview was great to listen to. Not surprising since Leo is a trained radio man who, literally, interviews people for a living. I, for one, would enjoy hearing more interviews with media-savvy folks and experienced speakers, rather than the on-the-ground entrepreneurs. Or at least a healthy mix.
August 10th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I think he has more flexibility with his ads than most people because he has
such a large following and reputation.
I agree that his way of doing ads is the ideal. It's part of the show and
often just as interesting to listen to as any other part.
August 18th, 2009 at 4:43 am
Great interview, it's fantastic to see Twit/Leo talk about the network. Videos not offered as embeds?
August 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
[...] benjaminjtaylor commented on How TWiT Is Bootstrapping A “CNN For Geeks” – With Le… [...]
August 19th, 2009 at 6:10 am
[...] How TWiT Is Bootstrapping A “CNN For Geeks” – With Leo Laporte [...]
August 22nd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Not sure why that's happening.
Is there a specific one you're looking for? Or do you want me to find a way
for you to embed all of them?
August 28th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
[...] he can that may help others (like you and me). He has done interviews with online stars like Leo Laporte, Tim Ferriss, and Gary Vaynerchuck and there is a wealth of quality information in each [...]
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:46 pm
[...] did an interview with Leo Laporte at Mixergy that was great, he commented to never forget the audience and listen to what they have to say in [...]
September 6th, 2009 at 11:54 am
A very belated reply. Thanks for writing. I like the mixergy interviews, they're fantastic, so yes to embeds for videos for your audience/visitors to highlight. But I also understand not offering embeds, it's a business choice 100% your decision to make. Great Leo interview BTW.
September 11th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
I see Leo as a pioneer in using the latest internet media technology to it's fullest potential. Recently he said on a show that he was named “President of the Internet” from Tech Republic (I believe). I can see why as he's the “Tech Guy” that's able to communicate well to the non techies how all this stuff works. And he's a serious techie that's leading the way by using all the latest technology to power his network and operation.
It makes you wonder how what he is doing with help pave the way for changes in the media in the future. With his business model and in house operation, will others be able to repeat his success in other niches? Will the mass media be significantly affected and changed by armies of Leo Laportes for all subjects and niches? It kind of seems unlikely but it appears that Leo has gained a strong foothold on what he does, with his “personal brand” identity as well as his content and network. Could it be that others will operate similarly and succeed under different topics?
October 4th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
He has a list of his stuff on twit.tv's wiki
http://wiki.twit.tv/wiki/Equipment
October 4th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
I came here from a link on Smarterware.org. Great questions for Leo! One important thing he talked about that make his podcasts and live streams so sticky is the quality of the audio and video. For example his video image was sharp and well lit and his audio was dynamic. Yours was… not
October 9th, 2009 at 4:42 am
[...] For more on Leo’s philosophy and ambitions with TWiT, check out this (unembeddable) interview he did at Mixergy. [...]
October 18th, 2009 at 2:31 am
[...] For more on Leo’s belief and ambitions with TWiT, analyse discover this (unembeddable) interview he did at Mixergy. [...]
November 5th, 2009 at 10:11 am
[...] You can show a sample of my work by linking to my interviews with Gregg Spiridellis (JibJab), Leo Laporte (TWiT.tv) or [...]
December 16th, 2009 at 8:37 am
[...] (iTunes, Blip.tv).Andrew has interviewed some of the biggest names in the business including Leo Laporte (twit.tv), Gary Vaynerchuk (Wine Library TV), Tim Ferriss (Author of The 4-Hour Workweek), Jimmy [...]
December 20th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Awesome job. I love watching people in tech that are doing great.
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:34 pm
When I heard you on TWIT, I just assumed you had a podcast. I had to go back and check it again to find that you didn't.
Mixergy…synergy…whatever. You should hook up with Leo and make this thing into a podcast. I can't imagine a better combination. What you are doing is great…and what Leo is doing is right on target and right on time. As you have seen, he could get this set up so you could do it faster and cheaper. Perhaps not with zero editing, but surely with a lot less and done much faster.
I'd subscribe. I bet a few zillion others would, too.
How long will I have to wait? It has to happen sooner or later…and sooner is generally better.
Bill
December 27th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Ive always loved Leo. Hes a great guy.
Its exciting to consider the possibility of an opensource network of sorts. Interactive realtime content that is a joinable community, and isnt “basementy”…not that there is anything wrong with basements per se, but yeah. It also re-enforces to me the importance of internet neutrality, and open web standards.
January 8th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Great job “inteviewing the interviewer”. You did a great job asking the questions I had about Leo's background and operations, as well as keeping him engaged and excited to talk to you.
I love what you're doing here at mixergy.
February 13th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
his 24-hour coverage of the iPhone launch was memorable.
and I'm not a machead at all.
February 24th, 2010 at 10:04 am
This man is a machine. IDK how he produces so much content a month without getting burnt out. Bravo to him and thanks for this interview.
March 10th, 2010 at 10:29 am
- If you listen or watch Leo's shows, what do you think of them?
I enjoy all the tech-related shows. Don't care for the others.
I've been following Leo since the ZDTV days. To me, that was the best venue he ever had. It was all tech, all the time. It had a nice grass-roots feel to it. When I learned Leo was doing his own podcasts, I was thrilled as it reminded me of those by-gone days. I'm happy his shows have become so successful, but I'm worried that in his desire to make it big again, TWiT'll lose that homey feeling and become the new TechTV.
May 29th, 2010 at 9:50 am
Great interview Andrew, you've made a fan in me man. Leo Laporte is a mad-man, I try to keep up with the TWiT network as often as possible. The TWiG (Google) show is becoming increasingly more important I feel…very well done. Jeff Jarvis and Gina Trapani are a wicked part of Leo's network.
Mixergy bookmarked, peace
May 29th, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Great interview Andrew, you've made a fan in me man. Leo Laporte is a mad-man, I try to keep up with the TWiT network as often as possible. The TWiG (Google) show is becoming increasingly more important I feel…very well done. Jeff Jarvis and Gina Trapani are a wicked part of Leo's network.
Mixergy bookmarked, peace