Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. Joining me as someone who I wasn’t sure what happened, his company. I heard about it for years. . Let me introduce you actually, before I tell your story, Dimitri Leonov is the founder of SaneBox.
I’ve become a customer of theirs. What they do is basically hook into my email, and they sort my mail, anything that doesn’t seem important, they bucket and keep away from me and I can go look at it. I choose to look at it once a day. Anything that I want them to automatically delete or automatically fall away, they automatically file it away.
And basically what they’ve done is made my email saying that’s why the company is called SaneBox. my assistant, Andrea has been going through my email with me for years. She doesn’t have to do it with me anymore. I wonder if she’s upset about that, or if she’s happy to get out of my inbox, but either way, she’s not in my inbox anymore.
anyway. So. I thought SaneBox was killing it for a while.
I remember Tony Robins being on the homepage. I think it wasn’t Heaton Shaw also talking about you, the software entrepreneur, he was right. And then I stopped hearing about you and I wondered did Gmail kill the company, did something else happened to the business? And I kind of lost track. And truthfully, we had an interview scheduled with Dimitria about half a decade ago.
That’s how long I’ve been doing this. We did a pre-interview for one reason or another. We didn’t get it done. And now as, as a passionate customer, I said, we should get the founder on. And then Andrea said, you know, we have this pre-interview why don’t you just use that and what happened anyway? I’m glad.
Yeah. Uh, I don’t exactly know what happened. It dropped, we dropped the ball. We were much more organized now than we were half a decade ago. We will find out here what I want to find out in this interview. Number one, how you came up with this idea, number two, how you bootstrapped something like this software company?
It’s simple. It’s clear how you bootstrap SaneBox, uh, number three, what happens in that latter stage of a company when you’re not selling it? And you’re not in like triple digit growth growth where every year you’re doubling and tripling and quadrupling your sales. And finally, as a customer, I’ve got some customer service issues that are going to go directly to the founder with mostly, this is a, um, a story of.
Of an entrepreneur, simple idea doing well. I want to find out how he did it and I can do it. Thanks to two phenomenal sponsors. The first, if you’re hosting a website, you want to know about HostGator and I want you to go sign up at hostgator.com/mixergy. And the second doesn’t even want me to promote them.
They just want you to know that they encourage me to write a guide about how I do interviews or actually how I have conversations and to offer it for free on one of their landing pages. If you go to unbounce.com/mixergy, you’ll see no promotion for my sponsor. You’ll see just one button where you can without even giving an email address, get my guide to having better conversations.
It’s unbounced.com/mixergy. All right, sponsorship out of the way into, out of the way, Dimitri, tell me what your revenue has. Come on. How much are you doing?
Dmitri: I’ll tell you what we’re doing. Um,
single high single digits revenue numbers. Yeah.
Andrew: impressive. Any outside funding?
Andrew: Bottom line, um, net profits. Can we say they’re more than 50%? So more than one out of every dollar in revenue goes to the bottom line.
Dmitri: it’s a little less than that.
Andrew: And can you give me a sense of churn
Dmitri: So this is one of the best things about our business. The churn is really low. I think it’s about one and a half percent, per month. and most of that is people who do monthly. So we have our subscription model is we have a two week trial and after the two weeks everyone has to pick. So there’s no free product.
And on average, the organic conversion rate from trials to paying customer is a 20, 25%. So butter quarter. Yeah. It’s like a quarter of people that try the product actually pay us a hundred dollars after, after the trial.
Andrew: Churn to me is the most impressive. I would have thought that even more people would turn out because maybe they have their email organized and they decide that they’re done with it. No, you can’t because you want to organize every day. New email comes in and every day you want that email to be organized.
Um, can we say where you are in the world?
Dmitri: Okay. Sure.
Andrew: I know this was something that you were hesitant about, so
Dmitri: I am in Costa Rica for the last, the last couple of weeks.
Andrew: I’ll tell you why. I want to ask that. I want to get a sense of the lifestyle that comes from business like this. I don’t just want to see the numbers. I wonder why are you hesitant to talk about you’re in a beautiful country, beautiful environment. It’s inspiring to be in a good place that inspires you, right?
Dmitri: I love it. I just don’t want to make everyone else jealous or, and drive up the, uh, the Praxis here in Costa Rica. I’m just kidding. Kidding.
Andrew: I get it. All right. Let’s talk about how you, you got into this. You’re a guy who, for a long time worked as, as what, what did you do at Yahoo?
Dmitri: Okay. , I did a few things from, um, kind of, I guess, marketing and sales strategy and business development. That’s kind of my, my original role. And then I, um, developed our partnership channel and international markets. just doing a lot of business development deals with different
Andrew: I think what happened was you came to Yahoo from overture. Overture used to do those, basically what’s ad, not ad sense, ad uh, ad words, right? They, they were the original inventors of ad words. Then Google copy them, Yahoo bought them. And then at the top of every search result where those overture, ads, that’s what you did.
And then you worked at Yahoo, you expanded it internationally. You seem to have a pretty damn good life. Am I right about that?
Dmitri: Yeah, that’s great.
Andrew: What was the typical day like working at Yahoo?
Dmitri: Know this was the early two thousands and, you know, I was young and ever, so it was everyone else and it was just really fun. It was a great environment. Uh, and I wanna, you know, just be here, you didn’t ask me this question, but this is one of my favorite stories and I want to, I think this would be really interesting.
Um, so overshare did invent paid search, right? So when you go on a search on Google, the top listings that say, add, um, that, that was, we came up with that idea. And so then Google copied us, but they didn’t just copy us. They, the overture algorithm was based on hump. It was just a pure auction. So the more you pay the higher up you show up.
What Google did is they added one tiny, tiny thing. They added the, they call it the quality score. So how relevant is they add to the, to the user and that changed. And so the idea is that if you’re just paying a ton of money, but the ad is not relevant, uh, it shouldn’t be showing up high because it’s a bad customer experience.
So Google added basically like the V some number of quality components into it. The monetization went up, I think, about 10 X.
Andrew: I didn’t realize that.
Dmitri: and because of that, um, the, then that allowed them to also go to publishers, other publishers and place search, and what became AdSense on, on publishers sites as well. And because they were monetizing 10 X more than what overshare was doing, they very quickly took over the market.
And so, like, to me, this is such a good, a good example of how, like the first mover advantage is not that harmful in many cases and have being the second mover. Uh, is really helpful. They ended up paying us, I think, half a billion dollars and for the patents. Uh, but that wasn’t nearly enough compared to what they’re making in revenue.
Andrew: I think the, the way that over to date, it also had another disadvantage. People like me would gain it. I would pay a lot for those ads, just so I could show up at the top of a search result and discourage people from clicking. So you could imagine something like a Mixergy ad maybe instead of paying $1 per click, which is what I would want to do.
I would pay $10 per click so that I know I show up at the top of the results and my ad would just be next time you’re in your podcast app, look for Mixergy, right? So there’s no incentive to click. And obviously I’m using really dramatic example, but that is the type of thing that we did at the time. All right.
So you work there, you are doing well for yourself. You then said, I’ve got an idea for a company. I looked at your LinkedIn profile. It looks like it was called or want to write, which is, uh, w what was the idea behind won’t, uh, want to the idea that you left Yahoo to go pursue.
Dmitri: Sure. So the idea was interesting is, um, basically the, at the time Twitter was getting started, Facebook was just getting started and the idea was social media was all about what you’re doing right now. And I was coming from the background of search advertising, where you’re so focused on what you want to do and what do you want to buy?
Right? So like your future. So a lot more purchase intent. And so the idea of, of volunteer was to essentially create a kind of goal oriented social network where you could put, instead of, Hey, I’m on Twitter, I’m doing this. You would put, I want to do this. And then the, I mean, from what I was seeing, the monetization of that traffic would be order of magnitude.
Andrew: And so what happened with that company?
Dmitri: Um, it lasted for about a year. And I shut it down pretty quickly realizing that it was a, a solution for a problem that didn’t exist. Um, and, and so around that time, um, I, um, you know, came across, uh, Stewart and, uh, so Stuart Roseman is actually he’s the original founder of sandbox. So I joined when we were in alpha.
Um, and there was, uh, just, you know, a couple of engineers working on this idea. And at the time I was kind of starting to really start to see how email was becoming a huge problem. And it was an actual problem that needed to get solved if people would happily pay money for it. Um, and what’s interesting is at the time it wasn’t even as big issue as it is now.
Um, we were back then, we only started seeing famous people. So like the studios and VCs and bloggers starting to complain about email. Like
Andrew: Meaning only there, there was a problem of spam by around the time that you launched 2010 spam was becoming less of an issue because Google was getting really good at catching spam and then other platforms caught up. But the problem was for people who had big audiences, big constituents, they were getting a lot of messages that weren’t like by Viagra type spam, but they were messages that are out of control and often unwanted.
And I remember I was facing that even back then, 2010. How did you connect with Stewart who created the company just before you connected with them?
Dmitri: Somebody sent me a link
Andrew: And just said, here’s a good product. Go take, go take a look.
Dmitri: well, I was working on something. I was trying to figure out how to like, use the, just the standard Gmail filters and hack something together that would make it more, more productized. And it was a difficult problem to solve.
Andrew: Meaning you were already starting to think, how can I solve this problem for people? Maybe, maybe you’re going to hack their filters in Gmail and organize the filters. Then he had something completely different. Okay. And someone said, check out what this guy’s doing.
Dmitri: Yeah, exactly. It was different, better. Um, it’s a very difficult problem, but the solution is, is it’s, let’s see. It’s easy, but not, sorry, it’s simple, but not easy. I forget the expression, but it’s a, it’s hard to do it, but it’s easy to describe.
Andrew: Okay. And so he already had it done. How far had he come with it?
Dmitri: I think we had like less than a hundred users. Just alpha.
Andrew: free users.
Andrew: And what did the software do at the time?
Dmitri: Um, so at the time it was only a Gmail, um, plugin, so it only works on top of general now. I mean, not even now, very soon after that we started supporting literally every email
Andrew: How did it work on Gmail? Was it using the iMac connection that Gmail enabled?
Andrew: It was so just universal access to Gmail and, uh, all it had to do was do what, what was it doing at the time that you launch at the time that Stewart had it before you partnered up with him?
Dmitri: Sure. Well, so what we realized is, uh, the loo prioritizing email is actually surprisingly difficult. Um, because specifically looking at the text of the email is really, really difficult. Um, and especially if somebody is trying to gain the system, it’s like, it’s very easy for them to game it. And so the solution that we came up with is by looking at the, uh, the headers of the emails, maybe they mean that the data that comes in that, you know, most people don’t know what that is.
Uh, there’s no tax, there’s no nothing sensitive. There’s just metadata. And, um, by looking at the data, it’s specifically looking at how you interact with your inbox. So when you first sign up for sandbox then, or even today, we start analyzing your email history. And so depending on how much email you have, it could take minutes or hours.
And we essentially look at which emails do you open, which emails do you respond to? Uh, quickly open them, uh, quickly respond how often, um, the communication happens, who introduced you, how far back and so on. And so based on this, we know what you consider important, and we just keep the important stuff in your inbox and move all of the unimportant stuff into a separate folder.
Andrew: Based on how I handled it in the past. And that’s the way you did it before. Okay. If you saw that, that’s what he did. And you were pursuing the filter hack solution. Why don’t you just say, I see where he’s going with this. I can do better. I I’ll just take on the idea. All he, all he had then was the approach to the same problem you are dealing with.
Why not just shift to take his approach instead of working with him.
Dmitri: Okay. Well, I think there’s two answers to that question. One is, um, and the moral issue. And then the second one is it’s a really difficult problem. You know, the problem with just email in general. And I, you know, there is a kind of a community of email startups, all of us complain about how difficult email is email is not really a product.
It’s a, it’s a protocol which is empty, right? It’s like one of the oldest fricking protocols that exists on the internet. And it is not really designed for scale there. Like there’s all sorts of issues with it there’s every, and at the time people were, were using exchange a lot more than they do now. Um, Gmail treats email completely differently from exchange, for example, right.
Which then treats a completely differently differently from Yahoo or someone else. And then on top of that, Many exchange implementations are different from one another. So it’s just that it’s a really messy, difficult beast, and there’s a lot of edge cases. There’s a lot of, um, just nuances to keep keeping an eye on.
Andrew: He and his team could implement it. And you didn’t think you could implement it on your own. You’re a smart guy. You have access to developers. Look, you’re you’re. As soon as I said that you took umbrage with that. Don’t tell me I can’t, you could have done it. Right. So why, why do you need them?
Dmitri: Um, I get two, two reasons. One is it would be pretty immoral to just take that, taking the idea of just solving email I get. Yeah. Morality is one aspect of it. And the second one is realizing how it actually is quite quite difficult. Um, it does take a lot of it already did take some and a lot of engineering time, but then, you know, over the last, what has been, what nine years, um, we’ve continued to build a product and expand on it.
There’s just, it never ends, you know, there there’s always more,
Andrew: so you just felt, all right, this team has figured out the direction. They also figured out the implementation. I’m looking at the early version of the site. It was Stuart, Chris and J D. They had experienced their posting on their site, working at Gainesville Lycos, a photo bucket to give you a sense of where they were. What did you have to bring to the table then?
Dmitri: Uh, well, they were, they are, all of them are essentially engineers and I w I’m the quintessential non-engineer
Andrew: got it. You’re the person who was talking to customers about buying ads on, on a Yahoo. You have the experience selling. Okay. Did you, what was the partnership that you ended up coming up with?
Dmitri: um, well, that’s, you know, that’s a little private, but, uh,
Andrew: Did you end up with like a, a split essentially with the, with, with Stewart, Chris and D J D were they all owners?
Dmitri: um, well, steward was the main owner. Um, I’m now I became the second largest shareholder.
Andrew: Okay. All right. So there’s some way that you came in. Got it. All right. Um, what’s the first, since you’re the sales person, what’s the first thing that you were able to add to the company?
Dmitri: Well, so, you know, we got pretty lucky. So in the beginning, um, Because it was a problem for, we call them famous people. So there’s a lot of VCs, a lot of guys who are very active on Twitter. Um, for example, right. So, so a lot of the words spread that way. Um, then we, we got a lot of good PR and so we got written up and tech crunch and Mashable and all,
Andrew: Was that you bringing in all that PR.
Dmitri: um, yeah, so tech crunch was interesting.
There was a, uh, uh, met, uh, John Orlin who, Hey, John, if you’re, if you’re listening, it’s been awhile, um, at, uh, I think South by Southwest I’m speaking of Austin and, uh, we just kind of connected and kept in touch.
Andrew: Okay. Yeah, I saw on the original version of the site, the creator said, here’s who we are and here’s why we’re doing this. And then they linked out to Fred Wilson, a well-known investor. He had a set of articles about the problem with email, um, Michael Arrington, who found a tech crunch was really loud talking about the problem and others.
Okay. So you just said, these are the people who inspired us. Let’s go back and make sure that we get some publicity from our users and right. And say we’ve solved this problem for them. Dimitri. The issue that I always had with using SaneBox was, I don’t know, who’s going to look at my email. They don’t even have their fricking last names on the site, in the launch post. So now I’m going to trust them with my inbox in it’s an eye, especially after moving to San Francisco, I’ve seen horror stories of what people do once they get access to your account. Not just email, right? The famous one that everyone talks about is Uber, but it is no by no means an Uber problem. I think Uber just took all the heat for everything that every godmother creator in Silicon Valley did, which is go into the account.
See who’s there. Um, the wage people who are yes, famous, but also tech savvy and protective that they don’t want to trust some dude with their whole inbox.
Dmitri: Well, you know, that Trump, that’s a bigger problem for less tech savvy people who are okay. Um, Michael Harrington knows that Gmail there’s no such really such thing as privacy. Right? So if you want to encrypted email, you shouldn’t
Andrew: No, should there is individual emails can be maybe intercepted, but my whole inbox, if it’s with Gmail, it’s safe. There’s no human deaths. Very, there’s not a likelihood that a human being at ed Google is going through my inbox. Right. You’re smiling. As I say
Dmitri: where are you going to, you’re going to get ads served to you right? Based on the content of your emails.
Andrew: But not anymore, but yes. At the time. Absolutely. But that was, that was machines, reading my email and processing it it’s the same way as the machine would read the HTML in my email and then serve it up as bold or italics. It’s not a human being, reading it and saying, he just said the Italian coat. Right.
So, but they weren’t cautious. It seems like you’re saying Andrew, that wasn’t an issue. You’re, you’re making a big deal out of it, but it wasn’t an issue for the people who are signing up.
Dmitri: Well, let me limit it. It’s definitely a big issue for, I guess my point is it’s a bigger issue for other, for, for everyone, right? It is probably our number one issue because basically what we’re asking them to do is give us full access to it’s not full access, but access to their, um, to their inbox.
Um, And then we’re asking to then on top of that, pay us money after two weeks, that’s it, that’s a separate, separate story. So the way we deal with this concern is we literally don’t w we don’t take possession of the email. So the email always stays on your server on GML or whatever exchange office three 65, whatever you’re using.
And what we do is we request the email headers. So we essentially send a command to the mail server saying, Hey, only send us the header. We look at the header and the header is, um, again, it’s just the data that it’s not the text of your email. It does contain the subject, but that’s it.
Andrew: If we, if we were to make a offline analogy, it’s all the stuff that’s on the envelope, not the inside contents of the envelope. So you might know that an, uh, by looking at an envelope that a piece of mail is going to the IRS, you might know who it’s coming from. You, you might even see the postage and get a sense of where it was, uh, uh, put in which mailbox, but you’re not getting to see people’s financial data.
I get that. That’s what you did. And I see the, I see the security of that. It seems like what you’re saying to me is Andrew. Once we explain that these people who you’re talking about trusted, that we were honest about that. And did you do anything to win their trust?
Dmitri: that enough just explaining how, how the product works and, um, yeah, that seemed to alleviate their concern. I mean, there’s still some people today that, you know, for them it’s a no-no. Um, but
Andrew: That you didn’t have your, your system audited or something to show that this worked
Dmitri: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, of course.
Andrew: in the now you did. I think I asked for that. And now you did have your system audited, right? SaneBox SaneBox has been audited since in the beginning. It doesn’t sound like you needed somebody to audit your software to make sure that it wasn’t reading contents.
Right. You’re just saying in the beginning it was a trusting community. They, they, weren’t sending super private stuff by email. Anyway, they gave us access to the email. Got it. All right. I see how this worked out. The other thing that I see when I go to sandboxes, you guys have the most thought out like pricing pages I’ve ever seen.
I’m not exaggerating. I mean, I almost imagine that if somebody wants to pay by the day, you’d allow them to pay by the day. Right? Talk about that. What are the different tiers? If I, if you could just describe what the different pricing is.
Dmitri: So we have three price levels. Um, and we we’ve changed. We in the beginning, we actually had one price point and then we broke it down into three, three levels and it’s, you know, the typical, medium, low, medium, high, and vast majority of the people choose the medium plan, just because that’s the most value, which is typical pricing structure.
Um, and then we, yeah, we can also do it by a monthly annual or two year, but we don’t do daily.
Andrew: Uh, no, you know what it is, you show it by the day and that’s partially why it, it, it, uh, it came across that way to me. But you have more than those three. If someone were to look really carefully, they could see you also have what you call the appetizer plan. I don’t want to get too deep into the pricing structure as it is today.
I want to know, is that one of the additions that you brought in at a time back then 2010, 2011, when a lot of software companies felt software should be free. You monetize by having a lot of users, maybe you do advertising or some clever something get right. You came up, you decided to price. At what point did you add that to the equation and, and how did it help growth?
Dmitri: that’s a really good point. Um, so I actually wrote a article on Mashable in 2012. I just pulled it up and it’s, uh, it was called why the freemium model doesn’t work. Um, yeah, so this was one of the things we rolled out, I think pretty, pretty quickly. Um, what we realized is, uh, There was a kind of, I mean, now people happily pay on them back then internet was supposed to be free.
Right. And so, and so people were struggling with figuring out the freemium models and how to, how to make it free and what to charge for. And we kind of just decided that no, that’s, you know, we’re not going to do that. Um, and then what we also did is we, we AB test everything. And so we AB tested, um, the old pricing with the new pricing and we saw that our conversion rate stayed the same.
Um, so people were happy to pay more. Um, and, uh, we really continued experimenting with just about everything. And so that was one of the decisions that was, I mean, there was some kind of thinking behind it, but then it was also testing.
Andrew: Now you’re coming out to two people who we now would call influencers, getting them to. Use the software and to talk about it, you’re starting to play around with the pricing model for the company and taking a bold stand. That article that you wrote was a couple years after you joined, you started talking about it.
Um, uh, and I see that Mashable article up on my screen. How long did it take for the business to be profitable?
Dmitri: Um, it took us a couple of years. Um, yeah, we’ve been
Andrew: 10 to 2012, you were losing
Dmitri: be like three or there’s some, yeah,
Andrew: and this was all a bootstrap business. How did you know that this was worth your time worth? Stewart’s time worth all this investment. What was it about it that made you say I’ll stick with this.
Dmitri: Uh, we w we were really believed that this was a problem that needed you gets solved. Um, there’s, you know, we had a really passionate base of users who love, love, love the product, and still do. And it was just, uh, you know, it was a rewarding thing to be working on. And, you know, one of the things we also made from the beginning is we are, we’re a very employee focused company.
So we’ve been remote from the beginning way before COVID, um, we’ve, you know, we have a lot of people have kids, so we kind of make sure that the schedule is, uh, you know, flexible around, around that. We’ve been getting together for a team building retreat for a week, once a year in different places. Um, we’ve created a kind of a community and a culture within the company, uh, which extended to our customers beyond the company.
And it’s just been really rewarding and, uh, and fun.
Andrew: Stewart, who we’ve been talking about is the, you know, before I get into who he is, let me take a moment to talk about my first sponsor. And then we’ll get back into this story. My first sponsor is a company called HostGator. I’ve been asking to me too, you know, on Twitter. People say that they really liked my approach for the ads for whole skater, because I’ve been asking guests if you had nothing but a HostGator account didn’t have money, didn’t have your current business.
And you had to start from scratch. What’s a business that you would launch. They’re finding that this creativity is really helpful.
Dmitri: Great. Um, okay. Manufactured, like really, really nice manufactured homes,
Andrew: Yeah. Ah, you know what, I’m with you on that, but would you then start by manufacturing homes or would you start as being a resource for people who want to have their home manufactured?
Dmitri: um, a resource and a distributor. There is, there’s a lot of really interesting solutions out there
Andrew: Tell me why, why, why are you seeing, why are you seeing this as the interesting area to talk about? And then I’ll ask you what you’re seeing is interesting with.
Dmitri: Um, sure. Well, homelessness is a huge problem, like in LA for instance, one, uh, for, uh, for one, one place, um, everyone is, uh, we’re going through such a massive change in the world and you can get really, really, really nice manufactured home for $30,000. Looks not like a manufactured home. It’s basically made out of a container, but it doesn’t look like it.
And you could have it delivered anywhere you want and just connect power and water to it. And you’re, you’re out of a home.
Andrew: Okay, your way to create, why should we do the construction on the site when we could put it somewhere else where it’s more efficient, easier to transport? Um, I was even thinking bigger homes. I feel like there’s an opportunity, right? For first of all, for maybe people don’t want it to, um, offices in their home, but they want it to be on the property somewhere.
So a smaller type of, uh, office set up outside in the backyard is interesting. Um, and I also think that we’re starting to get better and better at manufacturing homes and then bring them in and assembling that some people might want to actually customize their place without working with an architect locally to do it.
Okay. So that’s what you’re seeing. It seems to me, what you’re saying is if this is the idea you want to have, uh, that you want to run with, you want to create a resource to understand, to show people what’s available. So if there’s someone in the market, you want to give them something to see who’s interested in, drawn in, you want to start taking an inbound request so that you can, I guess, seldom is leads to the, to the current creators, right?
To the manufacturers. How, how would you run the business? Uh, I’m looking at you.
Dmitri: I’m I literally haven’t thought about this until you just asked me the question. So I’ll, uh, let me think out loud, I guess. Um, I have a couple of, I already know a couple of manufacturers who are really, really good and really well-priced. Uh, so I would probably do some kind of semi exclusive thing with them.
Um, and, um, you know, just make it a streamlined experience for purchasing a model, those things.
Andrew: I would imagine if I were starting it, I would want to know a little bit more. And instead of doing research on my own in private, I would do the research in public, go to hostgator.com/mixergy, get a website hosted on WordPress. And then anytime I do some research, I might put it up on the site so that I have one place to keep all of my notes, kind of like an Evernote or a notion, but in public.
And then once you have something in public, it’s easier to reach out to other people. And maybe you reach out to homeowners and say, look, I’m writing the site because I’m trying to understand why people do it. What was your experience like? And again, report that back on the site. Talk to manufacturers, report that back on the site and constantly have a place to, if you’re looking to get a home built, press this button, fill out this form and I’ll introduce you to someone, but also for you as the person who’s now in the in-between area, trying to learn what to do in this market.
You get that inbound information and you get to maybe follow up with them and say, how was this? What are you looking for? And then maybe you become a, um, a manufacturer of homes, right? Is that what you’re thinking of? But you like this approach.
Andrew: Okay. All right. You stimulated anything in you and you’re out there listening to me, go to word, not WordPress. You can go to WordPress, frankly, go do it. But if you want a good place to host your WordPress site, go to hostgator.com/mixergy. They will literally, I’m not exaggerating within five minutes.
Have you both signed up and paid for. Actually not just both, all three signed up, pay for it and have your WordPress site up and running within five minutes time. And tell me if I’m wrong. And of course, if you use that URL, you’ll be giving me credit and you’ll get a nice low price from them.
hostgator.com/mixergy, and I’m grateful to them for sponsoring. All right, let’s do it. The co founder, he founded Gainesville, Gainesville sold to Lycos the old search engine that competed with Yahoo. And, uh, I don’t think it actually survived as far as Google, really, to be a competitor for them. They sold for about a quarter billion dollars.
What is Stewart Stewart doing then starting this and what does he need with SaneBox?
Dmitri: Every entrepreneur. Sit still. And I’m number one, number two. It’s uh, we do want to make the world not to be cliche, but I want to make the world a better place.
Andrew: I get it. I think we, we laugh through it because it seems so cliched, but it’s true. We do want to make the world a better place, but still, it seems like it’s a smaller problem. Smaller business. He created this massive business. Why didn’t he say Dimitri, you seem excited about this. Buy me out, go run it.
You’re smiling. Is that essentially what he did? No, because he’s still listed as the founder on his LinkedIn profile
Dmitri: absolutely. Yeah. And he’s also the CTO. Um, so
Andrew: excuse me. The president and founder is the official title on his LinkedIn profile. So he’s still actively engaged in the business. This is his main gig. Why do you think he’s still involved in the business considering everything else that he could be doing?
Dmitri: Um, well, you know, again, we, we believe in the business, it’s, it’s been a really, you know, fun. There’s a great team. It’s a great product. Where can we continue to improve it every, not every day, but every week.
Andrew: Facil couldn’t you just sell it? Couldn’t he sell it to you? Couldn’t you sell to someone else? Have somebody else keep running it, you seem like you’re pretty involved in the business. No, you’re
Dmitri: well, so it’s interesting. So it would be the question of, you know, how much would we need to sell it for and how do we,
yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah, we actually haven’t really discussed it. It’s it’s been it hasn’t hasn’t actually come up. So we’ve been kind of continued to be
Andrew: How many hours a week would you say you spend on it? And how many would you say Stuart spends on it?
Dmitri: It’s a full-time job for us.
Andrew: It is no, you guys just launched an app. I don’t know why SaneBox would need its own app, but you guys decided we’re going to launch an app, right?
Dmitri: Sure. Well, it’s, um, it’s an app because, um, well, it’s, it’s something that actually users requested. Uh, and it’s just a, it’s a more mobile way of doing your digest.
Andrew: The digest, by the way, for anyone who’s not in the same box world, what it is is they will go through my messages. They’ll lump them all into these different categories. And I only look at them once a day. I choose once a day, you could do it once an hour, if that’s what you want, but it will come to you on whatever schedule you want.
And then, um, you just get to decide which of this goes into your inbox, which goes into a black hole, which gets archived and so on. And basically you’re handling it once a day. That’s a digest. All right. I still don’t understand why you guys are sticking with this so much. You could have sold it and moved on, but it seems like, uh, you enjoy it.
It’s a mission that matters to you. Let’s continue then with the story. Now you’re involved in the business. You, as you said, helped grow it by talking to, um, by talking to influencers, you started to play around with the conversion rates you told our producer years ago, shortening the free model. Actually the free trial period actually increased conversion rates.
You started creating pricing plans. You said you expect experimented with either one month trial or two week trial. And my sense is over the years, that changes whether you get better conversions from one month trial and versus two weeks trial. Am I right about that? Those aren’t the big ones.
Dmitri: it used to be one month trial. Then we shortened it to two weeks and the conversion rate went up. And so we changed it to two weeks and we haven’t actually re we haven’t tested it again since then. Um, but it’s just better to have a shorter, the thing, what we realized is there, when we look at the conversion time or time to conversion, um, kind of by hope by cohort, a lot of people convert long before the two week trial is over.
And it seems like there’s this kind of a hard moment when you sign up and you you’re you’re, you can breathe. People are convinced very quickly. You don’t need a lot of time, and I should, the more time you take for the trial, you might like have to get second thoughts.
Andrew: That makes sense. And you guys also send out very chatty messages to convert people. It’s would you like to lose your sanity again, or, Hey, did you notice that you’re about to get your whole inbox destroyed again? It’s it’s kind of fun and chatty and quick a raise. Okay. So that’s what you did. Um, how did you, how did you know what extra features to build on?
Because from the beginning you had a simple solution. And you’ve kept it relatively simple, but you’ve added features. What’s your process for taking inbound needs into account as you’re creating new additions.
Dmitri: Sure that’s pretty straight forward. So we, we look for feedback from the customers we ask what, what they want to build, um, and really over the time, over the years, we’ve, we’ve done. If there is an email related feature that somebody else has, we’ve figured out how to incorporate it. And there’s one thing that we well, like, for example, it’s losing emails, right?
And so since then Gmail built the snooze functionality into Gmail. There is the unsubscribe feature kind of unsubscribed folder where you just drag an email to unsubscribe. Uh, a lot of this Gmail has recently done, um, or some of us Jemma has recently done. Um, but, uh, the one really interesting thing about our product w is this is a decision we made early on.
We don’t require you to use any kind of a plugin, any you don’t install anything, download anything. We work with any provider, any email client, any device. And so all of our features are completely device provider, client agnostic. And so whatever. And we get asked this question all the time, like, well, does this work on Thunderbird 2.3 or something?
The answer is always, yes. There’s not one client or device that we don’t work on.
Andrew: Okay. There’s one. Hey, hey.com by base camp is the only one that you guys don’t work with because they’ve got their own protocol, right. Essentially. Okay. Um, but when you’re looking for these features, Are you just saying that somebody else come out with a snooze feature and we’ll do that. We see up.cc has an email address for each type of a snooze feature.
Like I think it’s one week add followup CC. If you forward a message there it’s news is your message for one week and then a week later, it tosses it back in your inbox. Did you just say if they’re doing it and they’re getting traction, we’ll copy it. Or was it more about customer conversations?
Dmitri: Uh, it was, it was really customer
Andrew: So tell me how you do that.
What’s your process for getting customer conversations to know what to build.
Dmitri: We get a lot of just inbound requests without asking for just an hour. Our support team gets filters, inbound requests, and we list everything and prioritize it. And, um, we’ve also kind of reached out to customers proactively with it’s like, Hey, what do you mean?
Are you interested in XYZ? Um, or sorry, X, Y, or Z, help us help us decide what you want us to build.
Andrew: And you’re just looking for that. Was there one thing that you did this process with that failed? One idea that people asked you for that in retrospect was a mistake.
Dmitri: No, not really. I mean, there was one idea that we didn’t do this process with that, that wasn’t a
Andrew: What was that?
Dmitri: Um, well, so there is, um, what we realized is that because we analyze your entire email history, right? Like, and your email is basically your professional social network, right? Because like on LinkedIn, for example, when you go on LinkedIn, yes.
You’re connected to a bunch of people. You don’t, you don’t really know how well, you know them and with email, you know, exactly. We know exactly what, let me rephrase that. Our algorithms know exactly how well you know them. And so our idea was to essentially kind of. Do you use that data and figure out and then kind of figure out what exactly how to monetize it.
And, um, we were talking to LinkedIn as a matter of fact, um, and when pretty far along in the conversations with them and what they were looking to do is exactly to what I described. I just add an extra kind of like a strength of connection layer on top of LinkedIn. Right. Because if I go on LinkedIn and I I’m asking somebody for an intro, like my processes is literally like, Hey, do you mind introducing me to this person?
Or do you not know them? You know, we know them well
Andrew: Right. Did you just add them because they were adding everybody or do you have some personal connection to them? Yeah, I do that all the time too.
Dmitri: Yeah. Well, so, so now, um, um, w w this, this is one of the applications for this. And anyways, so then, uh, LinkedIn got acquired by Microsoft and that, that conversation died down. And as we launched the product as a, kind of, as a standalone feature that allows, um, Company or individuals and companies to kind of find who it is that they know at, for example, at a certain company.
That’s, if you’re looking for somebody at say Coca-Cola, if you just search by domain and see who you know, who within your organization knows and how well they know them,
Andrew: Yeah, I know of one venture capital firm. That’s basically built that internally for their system, because what they want to do is know which of their partners knows the person they’re trying to reach and then ask for that. I see you built it in. I see they created it for themselves because they thought it was so important.
It’s called sane connect. Why do you say that didn’t work out or what, how do you know? It didn’t work out.
Dmitri: it hasn’t, it hasn’t been used as much as we would want it to.
Andrew: Okay. I wonder if that’s because it’s, it’s in an app that’s designed to keep me from making connections where I wouldn’t think to look for this
Dmitri: w yeah, we actually, we kind of launched it as a separate site as well. Um,
Andrew: still didn’t
Dmitri: Yeah, it didn’t granted there around that same time, there were a couple of other companies that were doing basically a very similar thing, just kind of a warm lead or a warm connection gathering services. And, uh, none of them did very well either.
So it could just be one of those problem, a problem, sorry, solution without a problem.
Andrew: uh, okay. Oh man. I can see, because my I’ve had my Gmail account for over a dozen years. I just did a search for Microsoft to see who do I know in Microsoft. And I saw Suzanne Glennie AQ who worked at my last company. She was there. Our last connection was 13 years ago. And then I hit look up to find information about her.
I didn’t get anything what’s supposed to come up. When I hit look up.
Dmitri: Um, we have an integration with full contact and it, uh, it should be pulling. I mean, if it’s really dated, it might just be,
Andrew: Nothing, but it’s supposed to pull that full contact information out. I wonder if it’s because I, um, I’ve got content. I’ve got ad blockers. Maybe. I don’t know. I’ll take a look. So you’ve been doing this for years. A few years ago. You sent me a message saying here, let me see if I could find it. Can I, can I read part of this?
I won’t read anything personal. Um, you said you’ve got a new company it’s called wire cash. I don’t know. It’s a personal message. I won’t go too much.
Dmitri: a company. I was a friend of mine. I was advising.
Andrew: Oh, okay. So you weren’t creating it. You were, you were just advising the business. Got it. Okay. Did you start anything else on the side?
Andrew: So this is your full focus. Your, your, everything is going into this. Where are you taking this? Where are you taking? SaneBox.
Dmitri: let’s see are going, we’re moving along the next year. Right? So we’re continuing to optimize our features. We’re continuing to just test all of our funnels and improve our, um, the user experience consistently. And so, you know, we’re not looking to sell, um, if, if the right opportunity comes with, uh, with, uh, a company that’s, uh, that helps us just get more reach and get this in front of more people, uh, you know, we’re definitely open to it, but that’s not, that’s not the goal.
Andrew: that is this with more features based on real customer demands and problems. Right?
Dmitri: sure, sure. Sorry.
Andrew: you see your, could you see yourself doing this, the same process of understanding user requests, understanding their problems, adding features in a disciplined way. Um, for the next 10 years, could you see this being a 20 year, two decade business for you?
30 years, 40 years.
Dmitri: that’s a good question. That will probably something would have to change. I mean, the market is moving pretty fast, right. Or I guess slower than I expected to be honest, but, uh, it is moving.
Andrew: What do you mean? What’s moving fast about the email market.
Dmitri: well, so there’s, you know, just the landscape is changing, right? So over the years there were a gazillion different, uh, companies that, that started, uh, that, that attempt to solve some of what we’re, what we’re doing.
And usually don’t last more than six months. Um, so we’ve had, um, Uh, superhuman. Right. Which came up a couple of years ago. Uh, and that’s really been kind of maybe the only real, I don’t want to call them a competitor. We actually worked great with them. Um, but know the only other solution that is
Andrew: There’s another one. Mailman, Andrew Wilkinson. Wanted a feature like this. You want to be able to snooze his email. He partnered up with someone and he created mailman. Do you know them? I see you starting to type. You want to go take a look at them?
Dmitri: Yeah. Since from G and U mailman.
Andrew: I don’t remember the URL. It’s mailman. Let me see. I bet you, I can get it. Give me a second and I’ll pull it up here, mailman. Uh, every time I go into, well, I’m wondering if it’s the, I’ll tell you who does compete with you. Well, and we’ll come back to mailman in a second. Um, Oh, here we go. It’s mailman, hq.com. Essentially what they’re trying to do is what you’ve done, right? Create this plugin for, I guess, Gmail at first, it’s now just, uh, pausing messages and eventually allowed, add more. I think I’m just introducing you to this for the first time.
Dmitri: Yeah. Interesting. Thank you. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know enough about it. Obviously. Just learn about it.
Andrew: So when you say that it’s, that it’s developing that it’s heating up fast. I feel like it’s basically got some lock-in right now. We know how email is going to work. Hey, is transforming it to some degree, but they’re on their own little Island and they’re not trying to beat Gmail. They’re not trying to change Gmail.
They’re just trying to have their own Island and have their own set of customers and be okay with it. What do I feel like at this point, it’s just going to continue the way it is. It’s a great product for people who have a lot of email it’s I just don’t see a strong enough replacement yet. It seems like this is where you are.
Here’s where the right, this is, uh, this is where you plan to be. Here’s where I see a big problem for you. Competition from Gmail itself, right. Used to do snooze. They added snooze used to be able to sort news automatically. They added that. How did that affect your business? Every time they added more of these features?
Dmitri: it hasn’t. Um, and so when we went live about two months after our beta, uh, g-mail launched priority inbox. And at the time we had double digit customers, um, half of them left on that day. And, uh, within a couple of weeks, most of them came back. And then since then every time Gmail does a release of, or upgrade email inbox or snoozing, or just other other features, we have a little bit of like a tiny, tiny leak of customers.
And, but nothing really affects us that much pricing. Every time it happens, we’re like, Oh my God. Now, now they did it. And no. Um, well, it seems that there is, um, there were a couple of when we ask our customers, why do they prefer to pay us instead of using Gmail’s free features? Uh, what they say is that our well, actually Gmail is also Microsoft. Microsoft has, or office three 65 have invested tremendously and yeah, without looking just to web mail office three 65.
And, um, when, like specifically with Microsoft, we kind of have a joke, uh, a Microsoft employee. You suggested this. So when somebody asked him, you know, how’s this different from how SaneBox different from like this called focused inbox? Um, there, the person’s asked the Microsoft employees answer is, well, do you actually know somebody who likes focused inbox?
And that’s, and that’s kind of the thing. So it opens the it’s very, very good free feature. That’s not really personalized. It’s not really customizable. And so if you’re looking for that basic feature, that’s not really customizable. Right. You know, you can use GMLs, um, or office three 65. And if you’re looking for something more
Andrew: Isn’t a customizable can’t I take something out of the promotions tab. Just drag it into the main inbox and then have Gmail automatically. No, no, it
Dmitri: try it. It doesn’t like it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, and it’s really it’s crazy. Right? Like, okay. So Microsoft launched the, at the time it was called clever, which was exactly their solution. Just like the same later folder. Um, we had the old engineer, I think that three engineers working on this product for three years and all of them were using were, were our customers for that time.
So like they just straight up copied it and it’s not, um, it’s just not really that somehow it’s a more difficult problem than, than it seems. And it seems that Microsoft and Google just basically take a global approach. So they look at the global set of rules for everyone and just apply to everyone.
That seems to be the case.
Andrew: All right. And I guess that I think that they’re going to keep improving and they’re going to keep taking on new, new, they’re going to keep taking on your features. It seems like you’re going to keep adding features and they’re going to be much more mass market. You’re going to be much more niche.
Someone like me who will get. Because of this episode, I might get a hundred men. Well, I don’t know if it’s because of this, but I’ll, I’ll get it because I do this podcast. I get a bunch of inbound messages. I’m always going to have a bunch of inbound messages. You’re going to have a customer. You’re going to have customers like me constantly popping up.
And that’s what you’re going to service. Gmail is just going to be for everybody. And they’re going to have a different set of needs than people like me. All right. I get, I get where you’re focused on this. Um, let me close out with two things. First customers today. How are you getting people? I looked you up on SEMrush and it seems like it’s all Google, right? What’s working for you guys buying ads. What’s working today.
Dmitri: Yeah, so we’re doing a lot of podcasts sponsorships, so we should, we should talk about that.
Andrew: Oh, you guys have sponsored. Um, I think you guys bought, uh, yeah, you bought an ad. You’ve got us. You’ve got a thing of ads with us.
Dmitri: Okay, great. Perfect. Um, so we’ve, we’ve, over the years we’ve done a lot of different things. Um, we’ve um, we were actually pretty creative, a lot of the things that we’ve done. So for example, we just did the first clubhouse sponsorship.
Andrew: Really. Okay. Who’d you sponsor on clubhouse?
Dmitri: um, near AOL.
Andrew: Clever. Yeah, because he’s the guy who’s all about being, um, unfocused and undistracted.
Andrew: Yeah. Okay.
Dmitri: Um, and so we, we do, you know, we do ad kind of ads and a lot of it is referrals. A lot of it is, um, you know, word of mouth still. Um, and yes, actually quite a fair amount of Google
Andrew: Okay. All right. Um, actually I was wrong. You guys had ads with us. I don’t think you have them now, but I think you might’ve just expired a little while ago. I don’t know. But there’s, I’ve seen that you guys had an interest in podcast advertising for a while. All right. So podcasts advertising, Google you guys big on SEO.
Dmitri: Um, yeah, we, we have some, I mean, the thing about SEO is everybody has this problem of too much mail, but people don’t really go and search for a solution. Like people just kind of assume that this is, uh, just a fact of life. Uh, and so SEO has never been like a huge,
Andrew: Uh, that’s why someone like near who’s talking to people who have a problem who are open to solutions would be a good person to help. Okay. Finally, quick tech support for me, you guys send me a digest every day, right? I just realized that my digest comes in at seven in the morning and two in the afternoon.
And in both those times of the day, you tell me here’s the messages that we think you don’t want to see, or don’t want to see immediately to a couple of things. Come to mind. Number one, I don’t want to, I don’t want to open up that message and tap it and then go over. Can I just look at my labels in my email app, I could just look at my own labels in my email app and see what’s automatically sorted into those labels and handle it that way without ever dealing with your site.
Dmitri: Correct. And so you can actually turn off the digest if that,
Andrew: So turn off the digest and then go to, what is it called? Sane news, which is one label for everything that you think is news and sane later for anything you think I could take a look at later, that’s all I have to take a look at and I’m done.
Dmitri: Yup. And that’s what I do too, by the way, I don’t, I don’t do the address.
Andrew: Okay. One more. How do I automatically train SaneBox to forward my messages to you guys have the black hole? I don’t like the black hole because I don’t want anything deleted. I’m someone who wants all my old email. If someone sends me spam, I want to know about it. So when I look to work with them, 10 years later, I could say, Hey, look at the spam.
You sent me 10 years ago. Right? Is there a way for me to, to tell SaneBox to automatically archive a message from a sender? There is how do I do it without leaving my email? I’m not leaving my inbox.
Dmitri: Oh, inbox, we,
Andrew: Only thing I can think of is to forward it into a folder.
Dmitri: So yes, and we actually, we have that feature as well. Um, so yeah, you can,
Andrew: create something
Dmitri: can set up a rule.
Andrew: set. Uh, so what I would do is create a folder called let’s call it sane archive for archiving messages in SaneBox. Right.
Dmitri: Don’t call it St. Archive because we actually have a full proposal.
Andrew: How about if I just call it, forget about it, you know, like that old mob movie thing, forget about it. Right? So that becomes my label. I attach that label to the next jerky piece of spam that comes to me from someone, it goes out of my inbox into that label.
How do I have all future messages from that person? Go into, forget about it and not into my
Dmitri: that’s that just happens
Andrew: It automatically. So if I forward something one time, it automatically gets trained to forward from that same center.
Dmitri: That’s that’s the whole point of SaneBox when you train at once. It
Andrew: I didn’t realize that. I thought, okay. All right. Forget about it as my new folder, anything that’s junkie just forward there, don’t get upset.
And you guys will automatically move. Oh, I love that. I had no idea that would happen. And then it doesn’t go in my inbox. It just goes into that one folder. All right. This has been very worthwhile for me. We’ve learned a bunch of things. Number one, Costa Rica is fun and inexpensive and beautiful little so beautiful.
Dmitri: Do not come here. Just kidding.
Andrew: not. You’re going to leave soon anyway. Right? You’re going to go. Where are you going to go? Next?
Dmitri: Um, I’m going to have to go to Europe for a, for a little bit. Um, I’ll be, I’ll be back
Andrew: He’ll be back. So why are you saying don’t come here. People would love to hang out with you.
Dmitri: I’m just kidding. I’m just being funny.
Andrew: You’re being a little bratty. Cause you’ve got such a
Dmitri: I’m trying, I’m trying, I’m trying to say that it’s a really good plot spots on jokingly. Discouraging, everyone. Exactly.
Andrew: I like that your internet is stayed up stable. A lot of times when people are in fun spots, their internet stinks. Um,
Dmitri: That’s one of the things about this place too, Andrew, and it’s great. All the infrastructure is great.
Andrew: Yeah. You get to go and hang out with other people that you like. There,
Andrew: they speak English and everything. Where you go hang out at night. Yeah.
Andrew: All right. And
Dmitri: speak more English here in Spanish. It’s great.
Andrew: I don’t know why we didn’t think Costa Rica. Okay. Um, so we learned that we learned also that any, that, uh, manufacturing houses on basically in a factory and then bring them over to homeless people or other people, um, maybe people who are working from home is a great idea. And if you want to get started,
Dmitri: of that.
Andrew: you literally thinking of starting that business
Dmitri: Oh, no. I’m thinking of getting one. Um, just like, because it’s, it’s again, it’s for 30,000 and you have a really nice house. Like it’s beautiful.
Andrew: You know what I’ve been liking? I like the idea of, I just don’t. I wanted to implement this and I don’t have the time cause I want to leave San Francisco. But if you go about two hours outside of San Francisco, there’s a bunch of empty land. Imagine you buy a bunch of that empty land, and then you put five of these things that you’re talking about.
Let’s say 10 of them right now. You’ve got a place to just go hang out and people who want to get away and get to nature can go to nature. There’s Starlink. Now that will bring internet to more parts of the world. So you don’t even have to say, get away from the internet. You can say, get away from the day to day in this beautiful area, you will live in what used to be a shipping container, which has got some cachet to it and interesting experience associated with it.
Andrew: I think we’ve covered a
Dmitri: is the only issue in the U S is that to get zoning?
Andrew: I saw that that’s a pain in the ass man, especially here in, uh, in the Bay area. All right. HostGator. Thank you for helping us bring up that idea. If anyone out there wants to run with any of these ideas and you need a website, go to hostgator.com/mixergy.
Number two, if you like the way that I, I lead conversations, you should know Unbounced has basically paid me to go and write something about how I get people to have good conversations and you could get it for free. You don’t even need to give an email address. You just go to unbounce.com/mixergy. And, uh, finally SaneBox I don’t know if the, the old URL that you guys gave us still works, but it’s it’s sanebox.com/mixergy.
I imagine. Let me see the same
Dmitri: If it, if it I’ll double check, if it, if it doesn’t work, I’ll make sure it
Andrew: you’re just make it work. Yeah, it does work right now. I think so. Yeah, it does work. sanebox.com/mixergy still works. Um,
Dmitri: you’d get a discount, right? If you,
Andrew: no, no, I, as you guys offer discounts, no, there’s no discount that what they get is like, they get a free, long trial on it.
Dmitri: okay. Okay. Well, we’ll, we’ll add a little discount.
Andrew: You will. I don’t even die.
All right. Do it, do whatever works for you. And if anyone out there is, uh, ends up being a customer because of this, send me an email. Let me know. I have no problem in not getting email and giving out my email address. It’s firstname.lastname@example.org. Dude, Dimitra yesterday, somebody, this guy, Paul, he emails me. He goes, I don’t know if you even mean it, but thanks so much for saying you’d be open to having conversations with your audience.
And then he told me his problem. He’s investing a bunch of money in this company. He has a question. He couldn’t believe that he could get on a call with me fast. He can because, because I’m always not always. I try to be as open as possible to my audience. All right. We’ve run over time to meet you. Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you all for listening. Bye everyone.