Andrew: freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. Joining me as somebody who got funded. Finally did it, got to Silicon Valley? Finally did it. I don’t know why I’m banking on my mum banging on my table about it. Um, it didn’t work out.
He was, I think you were even asked to leave the country. Carlos, am I right? Yeah. Anyway, uh, sucks is Silicon dreams that didn’t Silicon Valley dreams didn’t work out for him, but he’s still at it. He ended up coming back with a bootstrap company. Bootstrap company is doing better than the previous business that didn’t work out.
He is turns out, back in the U S in fact, living just like right over the golden gate bridge for me not far. Um, and I invited him here to talk about how he did it. His name is Carlos Gonzalez, DIA, uh, de de via . I had it. So right before Carlos Gonzalez de via Rosea, he is the founder of product school. What they do is they bring, uh, Product managers who are actually working at the companies that their students admire, that the companies that their students should learn from, they bring those on to teach and, uh, they train up new product managers that way.
I invited him here to talk about how we did it and we can do it. Thanks to two phenomenal sponsors. The first, if, um, If you’re, if you’ve got a team, if you’re hiring a team this year, if you’re paying people, you need to know about Gusto, it’s the best way to pay your team. Go to gusto.com/mixergy to get three months free.
And the second I’m really gonna urge you to understand that, Oh, you Carlos, I wonder if you could use this. I know you could, Zopto, Zopto is going to allow you to find people on LinkedIn, send messages to them, and then get responses that you can convert into sales, into partnerships. Maybe these, this is a good way for you to get new teachers.
All right. But I’ll talk about Zopto later on, uh, first Carlos,
Carlos: Thanks for having me.
Andrew: how much revenue you guys producing right now? Let’s be open.
Carlos: Oh, wow. mean, so as you mentioned, we are definitely, we are a bootstrapped business. I’m I’ve been in there. I was kicked out of the country 10 years ago, but I’m back, uh, with my new company, private school. And we’ve been with straps since the very beginning unprofitable. I can’t disclose the exact amount.
Andrew: Give me a ballpark in the millions in over 10 million.
Carlos: Yeah, we’re talking eight figures and, um, you know, I can’t give you an idea of their, the team were North of a hundred people. Full-time.
Andrew: A hundred people full-time on this bootstrap company. I had no idea you were that big. These are, wait, wait, wait. You’re talking about part-time teachers too, right?
Carlos: Yes. You know, these are very Silicon Valley companies. How much money did you raise? How big is your team? Well, I raised CDOT and, uh, my team is, um, you know, at least in size at this point, but he started just myself and most of the teams. For time.
Carlos: And then the secret sauce is all of our instructors actually keep their full-time jobs and they teach on the side with us.
So that’s why, that’s why we are able to attract VPs of product from Netflix, Facebook, or Google to participate, give back to the community on week, nights or weekends.
Andrew: Do they get paid? If they’re a product manager at Netflix, they get paid by you.
Carlos: They do, but to be honest, they don’t do it for the money. We’re really competing with their family time.
Andrew: And so they do it just for the passion of, because you know what, what I’ve found. I’ve had entrepreneurs come here to Mixergy to teach. What I found is there’s a certain satisfaction in helping somebody else, but also when you teach, you learn again, you reinforce what matters to you, how you got here, what you stand for, and it makes it easier for you then to go and communicate it to other people and to live it.
Am I right?
Carlos: totally. I mean, we created the first school to teach product management and that’s a solution to my own problem. I became a product manager and the goal, even though I went to an engineering school and a business school, none of those places actually pitched anything about product management. And that’s the main reason why also many other VPs of product and other product leaders want to give back to the community because they resonate with the same problem and they want to make it easier for the next generation.
Andrew: What does a product manager do before we get into how you built up the business?
Carlos: Yeah, so a product might get, especially that even software is in charge of building websites and mobile apps and they going to do it on them alone. They don’t code the sign or so they’d collaborate with teams of. Designers coders and marketers to actually get this on the same page and ship something beautiful.
So for example, netflix.com, you will see a beautiful website that recommends you amazing movies and TV shows. Well, there is a reason why they are showing you the right content because these product managers are making sure that they provide a beautiful experience for every single user of not just a generic homepage with the same stuff for everyone.
Andrew: Yeah, you and I talked before we got started about how, um, I’ve been with Netflix forever, but I signed up for Apple TV. I wanted to see Ted lasso. And what’s interesting about Ted lasso is it’s like what half-hour show and you want to watch the next episode. The problem with Apple TV is. It doesn’t recommend the next episode.
It doesn’t, auto-play it, it forces you to go hunt. And the only way for me to at this point anyway, to get the next episode of Ted lasso was to go back to the homepage, find the Ted lasso page, see the list of episodes, figure out which one I’d seen. And I think they do give that blue bar underneath it to show how much of the video you watch.
I can see which ones I’d seen. And then I have to find the next one, tap on that and open. That is a product manager, making a decision or not making a decision that determines that user experience versus the Netflix experience, which is as soon as it, an episode ends, in fact, before it does the next one is queued up and ready to go.
Carlos: Exactly now, you know who to blame.
Andrew: And so we, when you teach it, how do you teach them to, um, to know what to create, to get feedback from users to create that loop?
Carlos: So I started the company in summit of 2014. And a lot of people doubt me saying, you’re going to teach this. You have to be a visionary. You need to be born with these amazing ideas and everyone has with execute for you. Well, The reality is that product management is, as I leave it of art and science and best products, if you dissect them or reverse engineer them, you realize that there is, there’s a process.
There’s a framework that works. So what we started to do was to actually talk to the best product leaders out there, the ones who are working at Google, Facebook, Netflix, and some of those companies, and have them create those, those programs for us and, and be able to show them to the rest of the people, because the problem is.
Most of us. When I started my career, I had to learn on the go, I had no mentors. I had no frameworks. I thought this was, you know, just a bunch of genius S creating something. And the reality is that this is becoming much more data driven. And, um, we decided to do this. It’s kind of a hybrid in between technology and business, because you need to know enough about, you know, how engineers work.
You also need to know enough about how to market this technology, but you also need to know enough about design. So we’d like to define product as the intersection. Between both technology business and also design.
Andrew: Founder co founded flog. What was flog? This public, this a funded startup that you had.
Carlos: That was an old lady location company. I’ve been, I’ve started three companies in irrigation in my life because I’m, I have a love, hate relationship with, with traditionally location. Um, in reality, I never understood why we are supposed to study full-time until our mid twenties. And then work full-time forever.
Why we have to study a 4g or full-time program while most of the content is actually relevant. So I always struggled with that idea and I believe in lifelong learning. So flog was actually an online platform to allow anyone teach. Anything, it sounds very grandiose. It’s almost like YouTube, but just focused on education.
The main problem with that company is that it’s really hard to be the best at everything. And my biggest lesson learned from there was whatever I build next, which in this case it’s pro school, I wanted to really focus on just one thing that resonates with me and be the best at it. So what we do with broad school today, it’s really only teach product management and really bring the best product leaders to teach.
Andrew: And so with flog, if I wanted to teach entrepreneurship or teach people how to use the iPad more efficiently or teach people how to interview, I could go and do it. Just hit record on my, uh, on my computer and then upload the video to you. And that was up on, on the site, right? And the model was what, where was the money going to come from?
Carlos: So it was a marketplace where instructors were able to set the price for their content. So then the community would decide if they are waiting to pay for it or not, and how much they want to monetize. The marketplaces that you know, are good businesses. And examples of that could be Airbnb. Uh, but the problem is you need a lot of resources behind them.
You need a lot of tracks. You want to make sure that there is enough. Uh, and after our sections between supply and demand, and I learned a lot from that experience that actually brought me to see, to combining the first place, but then I realized that it was better for me to focus in yes, one dirty gut and try to be the
Andrew: before we do that, I want to understand a little bit more about flog and then we’ll see how it led to product school. And then why product school took off? How much of it did you build before you went to Chile to, um, to S to start a startup Santiago?
Carlos: Yeah. So the story is I came to study computer science in Spain. That’s where I’m from. And then I soon realized that I wanted to spend the rest of my life calling. So my alternative at that point was to come to the Bay, to the States. To business school. I started in UC Berkeley, and unfortunately I couldn’t stay because of my visa.
I had to go back to Spain and start to flock. I raised money there. Then I went to Chile and raised more money there. And, uh, and then came back because we raised even more money from an accelerator program called 500 startups. So that was kind of my long story short of how I’m back. Um, so we decided to, I’m very passionate about education.
I, the reason is that. There are a lot of features that I just didn’t want to learn from. And at the same time, there were many other topics that I wanted to learn that wouldn’t be covered in traditional education. So we started to use technology to democratize access to education.
Andrew: I’m with you on that, but let’s, let’s walk with me on this 2011. You had the idea that you launched it, right? How much, how much did you have before you got money? Say from 500 stocks.
Carlos: So I was, I was able to build a product, a what we call MVP, minimum viable product. It’s something that it works. So if you go to the website, it’s working, we had some traction, meaning there were some. Instructors on the website. There were some clients paying for it. We were still, we weren’t profitable yet, but we were able to show some signs of protest to investors that invested in us early on.
Andrew: And people are going onto the platform they were teaching. How did you get the teachers to come onto the platform?
Carlos: Oh, at the very beginning, it was me and my co-founders. And I think that’s a really powerful lesson to learn for entrepreneurs. You can just try to convince others if you don’t believe in your product yourself. So I was the first instructor in marketing, in product and the topics that I was very passionate about and my founders as well.
We even involved my mom to teach, you know, how to bake a brownie. I remember back in the day,
Andrew: and you sold those courses, I’m assuming you didn’t sell your mom’s course, right? It was just a
Carlos: Okay, exactly. At the very beginning, it was all about getting more traction. So we would market those courses for free with that. We were able to involve other people and some of those courses were paid and that’s how we started.
Andrew: So let’s understand a little more, how did you get customers for the courses that you were teaching? How did you get the students to come in?
Carlos: By leveraging the instructor. So in a marketplace is kind of like a ticket or a neck problem. You have supply and demand in. Uh, so instructors are the, the people who are the most interested in getting the students. So in that case, we want to make sure that every instructor, not just myself, would have the right tools to go out there and share on social media and other places that they are teaching a class.
And then once you get more students into the platform, Those students have access to other courses. So that’s how we use that. Creating some vitality.
Andrew: Got it. Okay. And so that was, that was starting to work. Why didn’t it, why didn’t take off what you told me about the problem of doing too much? But if each teacher can go and sell their own their own course, that seems like a model that, that works.
Carlos: Yeah. And I think, you know, it depends on the scale now. How, how much of an impact you really want to make this, this model makes sense at a decent scale, but we really want it to go big. We want it to be the gold standard for anyone who wanted to learn anything. And that’s just too much at the very beginning.
So especially in a, in a place that is not Silicon Valley, we realized that not everyone shared that same vision and ambition. So my next
Andrew: not everyone who worked with you shared that ambition.
Carlos: Not actually people who work with me, I share that ambition, but you’re not the ecosystem like that. When we would walk there on peaches type of idea to investors, in some cases, he was just too big and we realized that we believed in it, but this wasn’t the right place for us.
So, you know, that was the next step for us to apply to an accelerator program. In we get more funding, we got more global. We started tackling in other markets and proving to then the next level of investors that this is an idea. This is a global idea, not just a local idea in my neighborhood in Spain.
Andrew: Okay. And so I still don’t see why it’s a problem if you’re, if you’re covering lots of different topics. I guess the one thing that I see is there isn’t much cross pollination. If one person’s teaching baking another one’s teaching product management, you can say to the Baker, do you want to learn product management?
And it’s a little bit. Uh, patronizing to say to the product manager, do you also want to learn to bake?
Carlos: I mean, at that, I mean, I wouldn’t say it won’t work. That examples of companies that have made it work, you, they meet.com. I think it’s the best example that company is valued and multiple billions of dollars. They’ve raised hundreds of millions of dollars. And I think that’s the closest proxy. We couldn’t make it work.
And that was also a really good realization for me, as I found there. Jeez. You know, like I kind of have a lot of passion, but I, sometimes I’m not going to succeed. And that helped me then realized when I have to cut my losses and go for the next thing.
Andrew: I know, I know I’m getting a little bit, like I’m going in to loop here with you, but I remember talking to, uh, the founder of Twitch, Emmett shear, I said, you ran Justin TV. This was, anyone can stream anything on the platform. Why didn’t that work? Why did you have to go niche? And he said, we couldn’t create tools that were unique to any one group of people.
And as I thought about it, I realized. I as an interviewer who wanted to live stream on Justin TV. It was such a pain in the ass for me to get my guest on Justin, to get myself on Justin, to get my audio, to get the guests audio, to also record it. It just was, it wasn’t prepared for me. And then a video gamer who wanted to broadcast their gaming on Justin TV.
We found that they couldn’t get enough stats and what they wanted with stats, for how many people are watching, what they wanted was to ping the networks that they were on the gaming sites. And so they didn’t have a good experience. And he said, the only way we could do well was by focusing on one group of people and then giving them all these little tools that were missing otherwise.
And he focused on gamers because he loved gaming. And then he started asking them what tools they needed and focusing, I’m wondering, do you have any specifics like that when you were going abroad, any specific issues come up for you?
Carlos: Totally SAC, same thing. It was really hard to be the best at everything. Teaching how to bake brownies, teaching how to code, teaching, how to run.
Andrew: do you have any specific memories of things that weren’t working yet? Give me one.
Carlos: So I can give you one right now. So there were some categories like food, there were just too much competition because YouTube was offering a lot of content for free, even not just YouTube, but Wikipedia.
Like you got to learn how to make something for free.
Carlos: it was as big as a race to the bottom. You’re trying to monetize something that a lot of people have a free alternative while at the same time, there were other categories that were really. Having much more traction like technology or niche topics that you might not think that they’re going to have that much product management was actually one of them.
And that in a way, I didn’t know that at the time, this is maybe eight, nine years ago, but that stuck in my mind. And then when I decided to start my Nicole X company, it’s almost like the opposite of what I did at flock. I decided to just pick one thing, I decided to start very, very small, not ambitious to change your work.
Just one by one, make sure that. Every single student has the best experience.
Andrew: Got it. And then you can also, well, we’ll talk about some of the things that you’re able to do specifically because of that. Um, When you, when can I call a failure? I know some entrepreneurs are uptight about that.
Carlos: It was a failure.
Andrew: How was it for you to handle it? I find that I take failure, very, the big stuff. Very, very badly. What was it for you when you, you raise this money from these people, you finally made it, you had the reputation, then you had to close up.
Carlos: Totally. It wasn’t easy. Um, because, um, Scott total failures is hard, especially if you haven’t embraced it, uh, early on in your career. But in my case, I was able to be a really strong. Trust foundation with my investors. Many of them actually continue to support me as mentors or in other capacity throughout my career.
Even with some of my employees who are actually working in my current company, it wasn’t easy. I’m not going to lie. It took me, took me time to, to accept the failure, to realize that I’m. I’m enough. I know what a failure I can get it done and stay young and healthy. I can give it another show then. And, uh, I think I, that’s what, that’s how I faced life.
You know, like, um, I started studying engineering and I also failed some subjects. I love playing sports and I lost some games. I kind of make it as part of the process.
Andrew: I would have imagined it as I was reading up on you, that you probably felt all the things that you felt. And we’re snapped back into entrepreneurship by this understanding that this is who you were like, even as a kid, you are an entrepreneur, right? It’s not like you needed some outsider to pep you up.
From what I understand, it’s that you internally were an entrepreneur, you knew you needed to create something and you had to go and seize this opportunity that you noticed, which was, well, people did want to learn about product management. There was an opportunity. Am I right?
Carlos: I don’t give up and I don’t come from a family of entrepreneurs. Actually, my dad was a doctor. My mom was a lawyer and they were always telling me, be safe, find a lifetime job, go to school, do this thing. But you know, it wasn’t in me. I figured out how to get good grades, but on the side I was always building things and trying
Andrew: are some of the things that you, that you were
Carlos: So my first thing was exiting, not even, not company, but that’s how I discovered the internet. There was this response from Nike called live strong to support the cancer foundation from, uh, Armstrong and, and they were sold out in Spain. So I realized that I could go line by them that back in the day, it wasn’t really that obvious.
Like you could go line. I had to go to a library because I done a connection. I could. Put my credit card receive these and then start putting ads on the local newspaper to go on and sell those in person and then potentially shipping them to other regions in the country.
Andrew: Wow. Yeah. You know what? Online ads are kind of easy going and buying one in the newspaper is a pretty big commitment spending money. Did it work out for you?
Carlos: It was incredible. I mean, to a point where I was in high school at the time I really considered, I started skipping classes because I was like, okay, if I go to class, I don’t read that much. And then if I go to the postal office, I start shipping responds. I make a lot of money, so my body’s didn’t let me quit.
Thank God. But I was able to pay for my master’s degree in UC Berkeley. Thanks to that kind of business
Andrew: Because you were just buying things and reselling them. What else did you buy strong wristbands or not enough? What was your big seller?
Carlos: No, it was enough. I mean it
Andrew: the live strong wristbands. Reselling them that got you into the Pedro school.
Carlos: Yeah, because at some point, I mean, this is incredible. At some point I was able to cut the middle man and really buy online and ship directly to where the people were, where I wanted to buy
Andrew: That’s unreal.
Carlos: that you know, about internet. So I’d really had a huge business. I did a partnership with the postal office, the guy in the post that other people were like, you keep how’s it possible that you show up everyday with a small pieces of plastic and send them for like 20 to 50 bucks
Andrew: How much were you selling?
Carlos: between 20 to 50 bucks.
Andrew: Wow. We, yeah, I
Carlos: cost me, they cost me one, by the way.
Andrew: $1 and you were 20. X-ing your, uh, your price. I heard you say to our producer, used to think you are unique in that you had this entrepreneurial spirit. I know what you mean. I think you were unique for a period there. I know I was as a kid, this was not a common thing for kids to do now.
I think it’s becoming much more common, right?
Carlos: Okay. You know, what’s funny. I think I was in, I wasn’t in the right place. I thought maybe, maybe I thought I was unique just because I didn’t know many people that were thinking about entrepreneurship, but when I came to Silicon Valley, I realized that I am actually not unique at all. I, yes, I wasn’t in the right place.
And I was able to meet many other like-minded people who were also very passionate about building things. And that really fired me up.
Andrew: it did. Oh, it didn’t make you feel like you weren’t special. It just made you realize, wait, there are all these people who are bringing more of this atomy validating my feeling. Got it. And so am I right to understand that when flogged didn’t work out. One of the things that got you back, was this feeling that you are an entrepreneur hard going back to when you were a kid?
Am I right about that?
Carlos: Honestly, I didn’t even know what an entrepreneur was. I couldn’t put a label. What the fuck? Yes,
Andrew: Yeah. I have to flag you down. What I’m wondering is how did you, how did you go from being flogged to suddenly within months starting product school?
Carlos: I cannot help it, you know,
Andrew: That’s what I’m getting at. Yes. You’re a person who can’t help, but you didn’t need somebody to pep you up. You didn’t need somebody to push you.
This is who you are at heart. Okay. All right. And I also, here’s another thing that I’m imagining you taught a general assembly, right? That’s an in-person school. That’s also on your side of the golden gate bridge. Am I right about that? Yeah, the, um, I’m imagining also that you taught product management there and that felt charge you up and made you realize how important your, your knowledge was and said, maybe I should focus on this.
Carlos: Exactly. So when I decided to a step down from my previous company, my wife told me you have to take two months off until you figure out what’s next. Don’t worry. Just take time off. And I couldn’t help it. I re I’d received literally that same day, an email from general assembly saying that they were launching their first product management course.
And I beat a partnership with the founders. At flop study. So I emailed them and say, Hey guys, this is amazing. I just want to help for free. Don’t pay me. Yes. I just need to do something. I miss the feeling of building and being in front of people. So they said, absolutely go on and do it. And I did it and I loved it.
So, so much that I went back to the founders after the first cohort. And I said, okay guys, this is big. Really to be an indicted school, we need to change the curriculum. We need to do this and that. And they said, Okay. But, you know, be, this is big enough. We’re already monetizing with Cody and design data.
Those were like more popular skills and product was never going to be at that level. And that was the final push for me to realize that I wanted to create a school just focused on product.
Andrew: Yeah. The fact that it was a little bit smaller, maybe too small for them was actually good for you because it’s what you were looking for. All right. I want to take a moment to talk about my, my, my first sponsor, and then we’re going to continue with the story. And I want to know about, like, I heard that you also didn’t save much money considering how much you were making.
And I want to know the situation that you were in when you started a business. But my first sponsor is a company called . My guess is Carlos. You don’t knows Zopto, right? I’m going to tell you what they do. Get this. It turns out people who get clients from LinkedIn. Like imagine if you wanted to find people who are product managers and you didn’t know where to get started, you could go to LinkedIn.
Obviously you find someone who does product management at Netflix, product management, at whatever company you’re excited about, and you could send them a message. Now, why would you send a message on LinkedIn? That’s that’s what I always wondered. Why not just get their email address and then email them directly.
Apparently on LinkedIn, there’s a high open, high response rate over 30%. Am I right? Have you done it? Have you done this?
Carlos: Absolutely. I mean, LinkedIn is my favorite sport. Andrew.
Andrew: I favorite sport. What do you do on LinkedIn?
Carlos: I connect with a lot of people for many purposes, recruiting for networking for business. I mean, I live on LinkedIn.
Andrew: And so what’s your, what’s your process? If you wanted to find somebody to come and teach at your class, what would, what’s your process for messaging them?
Carlos: Well, now it’s very different than at the very beginning. At the very beginning. It was, it was, it was me
Andrew: it was just you, right? So when it was you, what was your process? You find someone who has a title that you’re looking for.
Carlos: The very beginning. I just taught all the classes myself for the first two years. Then I tapped into my friend’s network and the founder’s network. And so they started teaching with me. And then from there we started building more sophisticated processes. We have our recruiting team in house that is in charge of recruiting some of those instructors.
And now we’re trying to leverage instructors to bring their friends as well.
Andrew: So you could have done it in one way. Somebody was listening to us, could do it. If they’re trying to find instructors or find customers find anything on LinkedIn, what you do is you go to LinkedIn, you do a search for the job title that you’re looking for. Maybe you even narrow it down by certain region, et cetera.
Right? And then they send people who do it. Well, send one message at a time. And if you get a response, then you follow up and then you start to transition this. Small conversation into one that’s Hey, would you buy for me? Or would you work with me or would you whatever partner up with our company? This one-on-one thing works incredibly well, but it’s very, very time-consuming.
So there are agencies now that will do this for people. They’ll say, look, I know you need these type of businesses. We’ll find them for you. Just pay us when we get a contact for you. Great. Stop. Those said. We’re going to automate that. Imagine Carlos, if you could do this, if you could say we’re going into a city, we need to find product managers in that city who are going to teach, or maybe you would discover there are certain companies that, that are more likely to hire, uh, or pay.
To train their people with you. You just go into LinkedIn, you find those companies find the right contact and then you do a search and you find a bunch of these people. What WhatsApp will do is it’ll send messages to them one at a time at the time that you’re ready to follow up. And as soon as there’s a, follow-up say, Carlos, This person’s interested.
They liked this automated message that we sent out that looks very customized from you. You’ve got to follow up and you just go back and you follow up directly. That’s what’s Zopto does it does this all in an automated way. There are people building whole agencies do nothing but getting leads for clients on LinkedIn using Zopto.
All right. I’m going to recommend that people who are all drawn to any of this go and find out more about Zopto by going to here’s the URL. It’s a little bit longer. So note this down. It’s worth it. It’s GetZopto.com slash Mixergy. Get G E T Z O P TO.com/mixergy, M I X E R G Y. Oh, you know what?
What’s another cool thing with it. If somebody’s been on your site, you can target them then on LinkedIn. So imagine I come to your site and then I get a LinkedIn message saying, Hey Andrew, I’m the founder of product school. Oh, well I was just on him. I know them. Right. Very effective. All right, let me continue on with your story.
You had this excitement, you knew what you needed to do. What’s the first step that you took with product school.
Carlos: The first step was pretty similar to my previous company. I did everything myself. I first of all, had to figure out what I’m good at and what I’m very passionate about. Protocol is a solution to my own problem. I wish I had. These types of school when I was thinking about product management. So I was the first person on dime.
I had to create the school, teach all the classes, recruit all the students, really make sure that really, that first cohort of eight people in San Francisco will have an incredible experience. And I would help them interview with companies, make connections and do whatever it takes, because I knew that that was my marketing team.
My success is actually my student success and I had to do this for almost two years. So I basically had to.
Andrew: two years, just you teaching two years of you, is it live or recorded?
Carlos: So at that time, it was actually in person
Andrew: In-person live. How many students would come in and listen to you live?
Carlos: What? It will go up to 10 at a time
Andrew: Where would you do it?
Carlos: in a financial district in San Francisco.
Andrew: Hi, that’s right where my office is
Carlos: I would rent, uh, I would rent a meeting room in a conference in a gorgeous
Andrew: like we work or something or Regis. Okay. And how would you get these students?
Carlos: In the beginning, I was very, very popular on quota. What other call me is a really strong discussion forums. I was really focused on answering questions about product management. I would spend two to three hours every day to make sure that , I would answer the questions that people had around how to get a job in product, uh, things like that.
And then I also started hosting free imbursement events. So this is basically a meetup.com or eventbrite.com. I would host, I would say, Hey, I’m doing this free webinars or no, sorry. These workshop on prototyping or anything related to product. And I was bringing 50 to a hundred people for free just to get a taste for what it would be like to take the full experience.
Andrew: And so you would give them a taste and then convert them into in-person. Why did you do in-person? Why didn’t you do it online and give yourself more, more access to more people?
Carlos: Because I really wanted to do the opposite of what I did in my previous company. Instead of trying to change the word, raise a lot of money, grow very fast. I said, you know what? I just want the big one topic that I’m very passionate about. I’m going to go one by one. I want to meet my students. I don’t want to meet more investors and I want to make them successful.
And I don’t know how big this we get. Obviously I want it to grow, but it wasn’t my goal. My goal was to be happy. And I recognize that that was exactly the model that I was looking for.
Andrew: Boy, are you happy doing it? One-on-one.
Carlos: I was, I was so excited to really spend nighttime with passionate people that really were spending time and money on something. And I was able to really help and see the results. Education is not for everyone. Uh, it’s hard to convince someone to become a teacher, but I really love it. And I believe in it.
Andrew: I’m looking by the way, it’s some of your Quora answers. Here’s one which product management books should every product manager read. And you’ve got this long response, 131 votes, 131 views. That one has 24 votes. And this is the type of thing you were doing. You were basically writing that detailed answer with links and everything for 131 people.
No, 238 people. Excuse me.
Carlos: Yeah. You know what, on top of that, I know who the person is asking. So then I would follow up with this person on LinkedIn, send them a message. And in some cases, even meet with them in person, if they weren’t in San Francisco. Yes. Through help.
Andrew: So one thing that you said to our producer that stuck out with me was you didn’t buy a house for yourself at this point in your life. You didn’t save money or anything, you would just have gone all in. So basically, um, I’m assuming you were at $0 in the bank and just, you still had the patience to work with people one at a time.
Carlos: Yeah. So they say you only get bankrupt once. And that’s what happened to me
Andrew: You wouldn’t literally bankrupt.
Carlos: Pretty much. Um, after my previous company, I put everything in my heart, soul, my money, everything that you can imagine, I’m an all in type of person. So what, first of all, I was able to pay for my education in the U S thanks to the small businesses that I dealt with, the response.
And then I was able to. My, when I, when I got married, my wife was actually helping me support the support. And I said for the first month, and then I was like, I’m not a modern, I really want to do something for myself. And being bootstrapped gives you much more control over your finances because I was investing my own time and I became profitable in the first month because I only needed one or two customers to pay the bills. I was charging $3,000 at a time for eight weeks, 40 hours.
Andrew: And the people were coming in, were coming in with what jobs and then leaving. I’m assuming getting product management jobs.
Carlos: Yes. So they’re one of the key things that we do is all of the instructors, sorry. All of the students keep their full-time jobs. These are professionals with these three years of experience. It’s usually software engineers like myself with a one to code anymore. Or it can be management consultants or marketers who will do working tech and be closer to the action.
So they don’t take a big risk because of the classes happen on week, nights or weekends. And, um, that’s how we did it. I found eight students through quota. I think with that, I, then I founded the community and I’ve been reinvesting everything into more growth.
Andrew: So for you growth, once you got, you get these eight students in a coworking conference room and it’s working and you’re seeing that they’re, that they’re doing it, that they’re getting it. What’s the next step for growth for you?
Carlos: So that was a really important moment for me because my product mindset is telling me you have to go big and you have to raise money, but the reality is it’s working because. It’s me right now. Like I’m really spending my time to make sure these people are set up for success. So I don’t think we were ready to, to grow at that point.
I really wanted to put quality first. So that’s why it took me almost two years until I hired that first instructor, other than me.
Andrew: How did you know it was working in the beginning? What does working mean?
Carlos: Well working mean students getting jobs in product management or getting promotions, but also seeing their reviews online. I was making sure that they had a good experience. They would, they would go up there on quota. You guy pros, quote unquote. I do see that there are over 500 reviews and that also created some vitality word of mouth was my best marketing stay today.
Andrew: So knowing that they loved it so much, that they would go and talk about it. What about jobs? Were you tracking the jobs that they were getting.
Carlos: Yes. And imagine now that they got a job, in some cases, so many students are actually hiding, uh, they, they, they were fighting their careers and now they’re hiding that next generation of product Monday. So it was really important for me to build that. Community get know everyone by name and make sure that they will be set up for success.
One thing that I think worked for us was apply a strong filter at the beginning, even though I was desperate to have some money to survive. I had to say no, some people that wanted to take the product. Yes. Because I don’t think they were ready.
Andrew: You said to our producer, I would invite them to coffee review their resumes, introduced them to my friends who worked at Google at Facebook, et cetera. At this point, it was Carlos school, not product school. That’s how deeply you were doing this whole thing. You almost had a heart attack.
Carlos: I did. I almost did. Sorry. I almost did.
Andrew: What happened?
Carlos: it was, it was, it was tough. You know, two, it was two years with almost two full-time jobs, man, from nine to six, Monday through Friday, I would be running the school. And then on weeknights, every, every Tuesday, every Thursday I would be teaching every Wednesday I would be running a free workshop.
And then on weekends I would be teaching a weekend cohort. That was just a lot. And that also was a good, a good reality check for me to realize that not only life it’s about. Work. And, uh, I think getting married and not having kids really gave me a really good life, a work life integration.
Andrew: wonder about that lately. I’ve been thinking that it hasn’t helped me that it’s, it’s not just sucking up the time that I spend with my kids, which I love, and I get sucked into doing it because I love it so much. But even the time away where I could be thinking about work, I could be thinking about creating.
I’m thinking about my kids and how my kid is now learning to play the flute. And how could I make sure that he learns to play the flute better like that? Don’t you find that too? How is it helping you?
Carlos: Yeah, I was one of those thinking, getting a girlfriend is how they structure and having kids is really stretching. And then every time I had one of us Mesa who realized my, my life is wonderful and I’m happy, and I know maybe I’m more productive because it forces me to find time for the things that really matter.
Andrew: And that’s your, is it helping you with your work? I’m okay with you saying, look, Andrew, truthfully, my company could have been a lot bigger if I didn’t have kids, but I’m sacrificing it because I’m happier. Is that what you’re saying? Or are you saying that it’s also helping your work?
Carlos: It’s definitely helping me with work and with life because first of all, my wife and I worked together, she is the COO of the company. And that also that’s an additional complexity because we had to define rules around separating,
Andrew: When can you talk about it when you can’t? You mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Carlos: But it also puts us in the same Bates. We’re all working together towards the same goals in life.
That means that. 24 hours. We are thinking about family and our business, and we are able to think together through what is important, what we need to delegate, what we need to do ourselves, who takes get the key to, to where. And, you know, I just can’t imagine my life in a different way. I, I know that according to the business books, it’s, it’s not the best option in some cases.
And, but I’ve also seen this work and a yes to make it even more complicated. My brother also works. And to be honest, it’s a wonderful partnership.
Andrew: I do find I’ve worked great. I still work great with my brother. It’s, it’s helpful to have somebody who gets you to that degree. I imagine for some people it’s not, but I find it really helpful.
Carlos: Totally. I think the level of trust that we have among each other. I know. So for me, it’s very important to get feedback. So I know that they cared about me and they have no problem sharing things. How, how they are.
Andrew: Yeah. So your wife is the one who said to you, look, you’re not sleeping. You’re, you’re going through a lot of personal pain. You need to delegate. And the first thing you delegated was,
Carlos: It was two, I hired an assistant, someone. I was an extension of myself to take it off some smaller tasks at the beginning, because that was literally eating up my life. Oh, well, uh, we had to find more office space for, for the classes because the classes were getting bigger and we needed more than one class at a time.
And that co-working space only had one conference room, for example,
Andrew: is, but more than one class at a time. Meaning you already, at this point had another teacher, another product manager there.
Carlos: uh, well, even before I had a product manager, I had two classes in parallel, one on weekends and one on weeknights.
Andrew: got it. Okay. And so somebody figuring out the office space, I could see that.
Carlos: no, he sticks and punishing all events on, on different social platforms. I basically, I had to pick the things that I I’m best at, and I cannot delegate such as writing good content on Quora or obviously teaching, but then there were many other logistics that I was able to delegate. And then from there, the ball gets bigger and bigger
Andrew: How’d you find, uh, your assistant.
Carlos: on Craigslist.
Andrew: Oh, wow. And then how it took me a while to learn how to work within assistant, how to pass on the things that I do. How did you do it? What was your process for passing it on?
Carlos: Oh my God. I think I’m stating their name. Uh, it’s no DC because, um, I, I also never had an assistant before, but I think it was brute force is realizing that I kind of do this myself. I really need help. And my body actually gave me a, a good warning. And then going through the list of. Priorities. And as I treat my company as a product and I was a product manager before, so I lead that already going through that roadmap and identify what is really going to move the needle today.
And then this is what I need to spend my time. And then these other things, in some cases, nobody has to do them and either they need to be done because, you know, everyone has to do certain things that I don’t fancy. Well, maybe I can postpone them or I can delegate them. I’m still learning. But definitely getting help is, uh, is the only way to get, to get further.
Andrew: I’d like to find a really good book on that. Someone who has advice on how, in fact, I would read a couple of books because I find that when people have advice on how to work with the, an assistant, they’re very dogmatic and they have their one way of doing it. And. I’m open to lots of different ways.
There’s some people who were really step-by-step have a Google doc or some kind of Wiki with what you need done and force them to work. Step-by-step there are others who are more about have them solve problems and let them work on their own. And I I’m. I’m good with both. I wanna understand how both work and I don’t want to see the third and the fourth and the fifth option, and I’m intentionally talking about it to someone in the audience will reach out and tell me.
Carlos: Um, I I’m in love with lifelong learning. I think we drink our own champagne. So I’m always curious about how other people do things. How can I get better? How can I go there faster? And I’m constantly investing in myself back in the day. It was through getting an assistant, but today it’s is working with another executive coach is belonging to CEO.
Peer groups is having an advisory board, whatever it is, you know, like everyone will decide what’s best for them to learn. But I think if you’re going to invest in yourself, You can be kind of bottleneck for your business.
Andrew: I am too. I think what you said earlier, just resonated with me the idea that we go through school for the first 21 years of our lives to learn things, hoping that we’ll remember it for the last 80 years of our lives. It’s fricking nuts. I’d much rather, especially when I was younger in school and wanted to go do something.
To take some time off of school, go do something like what you were doing. Go explore that, learn from it and then come back and continue to learn. I used to be all into learning from books then, uh, online courses, the thing that I I’ve lately been discovering is have a coach who is working with me on one specific thing.
Like I’ll, I’ll give you an example. Um, I’ve been into writing. I found this woman who works at penguin publishing and it started out as once a week. Now, twice a week. I’m writing. She’s giving me feedback. It’s not general knowledge, but it’s, here’s what this general knowledge that I’m teaching you means for the work that you’re sending me, that was really helped.
Carlos: and we also tried to apply that same concept to our courses, because if you use that for a gene, for example, That doesn’t mean that you are going to get your workout in. And there’s a reason why some people actually get a personal trainer because you also want that accountability. And you also want to make sure that you are doing the right exercises and you are progressing fast.
So in education, I think is the same. A lot of the content can be found online and it’s almost free, but at some point you are serious about a topic it’s important to invest money and diamond. Obviously have some type of peer pressure to make sure that you are making more products.
Andrew: Shaundra Souza. One of my past interviewees started sending me these photos that he took and he goes, I took you like this photo. Yeah. He says, I forget the number. He says, I took 800 photos just so I can get this one. Right. I go, that was, how did you do any this? And then I had to edit it. So that’s a pain.
How’d you do all that? He started telling me, I said, that’s a pretty intense workflow. How’d you even get that? I know when I was editing all the videos that I, or some of the videos that I shot when I was in a. Uh, Antarctica, the workflow was a pain to learn. He goes, I hired a coach, somebody who’s done this and I’m just working through their process.
And I feel like I need much more of that in my life. Um, you know, one other thing that I got a coach for, I haven’t started yet, but one of my other interviewees got a sex therapist as a coach. I go, I don’t believe that you’re the person who you did that on. All right. If he’s doing it, I’m doing it too.
We’re going to start, I think, uh, this, this Friday or Saturday.
Carlos: no. When people would come to me and ask me what type of course should I take, or like, I don’t think learning would make you worse. And I think if anything, you will learn what you like and what you don’t. You can always change. I think one of the beautiful things about lifelong learning is that you don’t have to commit to four years for dime anymore to then make a decision.
Andrew: I do find that there’s some people who are really terrible at teaching and others who are, who are great at it. And it’s hard to figure out who’s worth investing in, you know, some great teachers are really frustrating at first because they’re pushing your buttons right from the beginning. Um, but you have to stick with it.
So I’d never know who to stick with and who not to. I need good reputation.
Carlos: Teaching is the ultimate learning. I believe.
Andrew: Are you, are you turning some of your product management students to teachers now?
Carlos: Because, uh, there’s a big gap between getting your first product monitoring job and then be a, what we call our product either to teach the next generation. So just to give you an idea on that, The type of instructors who teach at our school, our VPs of product at Netflix, Google, Facebook, or Uber. And they have at least 10 to 15 years of experience working in product.
And I would have students, they have at least three to five years of professional experience, maybe not even product. And we are helping them get that first product management job.
Andrew: got it. All right. Um, let me talk about my second sponsor. It’s a company called Gusto for, for paying your people and for taking care of them. Um, what we’re finding now is there, a lot of people are moving all over, right? And in the past, if you had a company that worked in a state, if you had a company where everyone was in one state, it was fairly easy to pay them.
You dealt with a payroll manager. I remember dealing with one of these companies that they were so proud that they were digital go great. Send over the documentation that goes, I will send it over. In fact, I’m going to bring it to your office. I’ve got an iPad. I was just so freaking proud of you on an iPad.
And one of these think and pencil, not the Apple pencil, but one of these thinking stylists that I got to sign his PDF on, that was his digital experience for me. It was awful, but I stuck with them partially because they had somebody I could talk to. What I like about Gusto is they have all that digitize completely a to Z.
They were built from, from the beginning as a digital company, to help us as the people who are paying our, our team to, to pay them and not get sucked into, into payroll. And it also makes it easy for them to get paid. It makes it easy for them to get medical, dental vision. And when we have trouble or questions or we’re unsure about something like what happens if somebody moves from California to Austin, Texas, or somewhere else, how do we handle all that?
Well, they’ve got certified HR experts ready to help if you’re, if you’re paying your people full time, employees, contractors, whatever you got, I urge you to go to gusto.com/mixergy throw in that slash Mixergy. At the end, we’ll get you three months for free of their service, and we’ll let them know that your buddy, Andrew Warner sent you.
So please go to gusto.com/mixergy. You’re going to not, you, your employees are gonna thank you. And you’re gonna forget to thank me, but that’s okay. Cause I’m so proud. Of the sponsors that I have and the impact they have on my, on my listeners. That’s all that matters. No, I do want you to know, please tell me, tell me if it works for you and how it works for you guys.
Go to gusto.com/mixergy. And let me know, Carlos you’re first from what I understand was a senior product developer at LinkedIn. Yeah.
Carlos: Senior product manager on LinkedIn. Yes.
Carlos: And that really changed the trajectory of the business, uh, because he was also a recruiter for product. And when I just have to LinkedIn and it was literally the perfect person and I could actually use LinkedIn to reach out to him. And he was one of the early believers who said, this is really cool.
I wanted to give back to the community. And as we’re still friends and it was really powerful to, because I wanted to move from Gatineau school to really. Hot school. And I knew that even though, of course I have, uh, I think I was doing a good job. I was never going to be the best. And it was very important for me to be able to delegate so we can grow.
And he was keeping pointing at our company.
Andrew: What did he teach or how did he, his teaching differ from yours.
Carlos: where he was. He had more experience building products, companies that had much more traction because I come from the startup world. He was a senior product manager at LinkedIn, and he also had experienced hiring product managers, not just at LinkedIn before at Facebook. He used to work directly with Mark Zuckerberg.
So he was not only teaching how to build products. He was also teaching how to get a job. In product management and actually how to leverage LinkedIn to do so. So it was really a perfect fit.
Andrew: So, did you have a curriculum? What I’m curious about is you must have had your own style of teaching and also your own approach to product management. He had his, how do you connect the two without having people feel like this is a schizophrenia class?
Carlos: Yes. So it took us time. That’s why. It took me almost two years to delegate the first classes. We actually did them together to learn about each other. We had a lot of conversations offline to make sure that our philosophy is aligned, but still today. Now it’s not about my curriculum or other person’s curriculum.
We have a dedicated education team. And most of the things I’m not the most, but a lot of the instructors who teach, actually contribute the curriculum as subject matter experts. And we have a much more robust process now to control versions and make sure that. The practices that we are teaching actually best in class.
And they’ve been adopted by so many different companies across the world. I know just based on what one person thinks they say.
Andrew: Give me, give me an example. What’s one of the pillars of product management, as you’ve seen it.
Carlos: Yeah. So for example, how to work with engineers, it’s a really big part and, um, product management, the first from company to company, even from country to country. So it was very important for us to get some data points and really reverse engineer. How. Product is done at Google, Facebook, Netflix, Uber, Airbnb, and others, and really understand how to put it together into some frameworks that are commonly acceptable.
Understanding that, of course, at the end of the day, you have to take those frameworks with a grain of salt because each company is different and you will have to modify them according to your needs.
Andrew: I’m looking at an early version of your website. I like how simple it was. And immediately you are grabbing people’s LinkedIn profile and yes, email address. Of course, whenever I even, I want to just see the syllabus. It said, what’s your phone number? My hunch is you wanted to call these people up and understand what they, what they thought, what they were looking for.
Carlos: I actually build the website and I quote every single person personally blacked I’ve connected with them on LinkedIn. In some cases I said before, I used to have coffee with them, because for me it wasn’t really about just charging money. It was really learning. I wanted to make sure that this was the right fit.
And I didn’t know, at the very beginning, my idea was very different from what protocol is today. And it’s part of the process.
Andrew: What about the other roles letting go of marketing? Marketing was you with Cora and meetup. How did you find other people to do that? And how did you pass it on.
Carlos: Yes. Well, I think as a, as a founder, especially as a CEO, You’ll have to excite how big you want to grow and where you want to focus on. Similar to the example, we will discuss it with the assistant. And I realized that I cannot do this alone and that the team today needs me in certain areas of the business.
And I’m not the best at others. And that’s okay. So for me, I come from a product and marketing background. That’s what I’m most passionate about. So I was, I started delegating other areas of the business, right? Such as operations, HR, finance, and he got on show. And I still. I still to this day, pretty close to marketing and product, and then events really well.
First of all, my brother works with me. He’s the head of product. So that was a really easy transition for me because I fully trust him. And then from there, obviously we can’t yet. I just don’t have enough brothers. So then we have to go there and hire people, but I take recruiting very seriously. That’s what, also one of the functions I still participate in today because I know what it is.
To make the wrong hire. And, um, I tried to be very careful with what we call to the cultural fit. This is something that I didn’t pay much attention at the very beginning because you know, it was my friends in the same room, but now that we’d have 43 with a team with almost a hundred people, we pay a lot of attention to, you know, people’s personalities has to make sure that they are here for the longterm.
Andrew: You mentioned something that reminded me that you, at some point felt betrayed by people. What do you mean by that? What type of betrayal?
Carlos: yes. So in education, probably in other businesses as well, um, we got employees who, uh, took advantage of our curriculum and tried to create a competitive business. Then, with instructors still to this day, there are so many competitors. When I started, there were very few. Now, if you try to find people who are taking our domain, so instead of pro school.com, they will take a different domain.
Or instead of for school, they would call it within our synonymous ward to make the user believe that this is us. And again, that’s in different philosophies on work ethics, but I try to. Put those feelings aside recognize that obviously that’s not something that I want learn from that experience to hopefully be better at hiding and then focusing on what we are best, which is building a really good community.
Our competitors are not other startups. Our real competitors is that traditional business school is the traditional MBA program, which is two years full-time costs over a hundred thousand dollars. And we get so many students that graduated from an MBA saying, Hey, God knows. I realized I want to be a product manager.
By the way, there was no product management class in my two year program. And they’re trained us to fix that for them, you know, for $4,000 on a weekend and we’re happy to lose. So, but that’s what I see the opportunity.
Andrew: You, you mentioned the community a couple of times. Can you say how many people are in your community? I mean, you and I talked about it in private, but I don’t know how much you want to share.
Carlos: there are over 1 million members in our community. And what I mean by community is that in addition to the training piece that we discussed, we have over 90% of resources that are absolutely free and available for everyone. From a job board to different books, we produce about a thousand events per year, six conferences, um, so many different resources and you can just go online and take advantage of them.
I’m here for the long term. And I understand that first of all, this is not for everybody
Andrew: what do you mean by community? It’s not a Facebook group. What is it? Where is it
Carlos: it’s much bigger than that community means a safe space online where people can really connect with other people that share same
Andrew: space. Let
Carlos: So I would, I would website pro school.com. Yeah. You go to our website today, pro school.com.
You can get access to so many different product management resources
Andrew: but is it, is it a community where I’m talking to other product managers?
Carlos: Yes. So they just had discussion forum where you can connect with other product managers. There’s a job board where there are companies hiding that are, um, interview cheat sheets that are templates to teach you how to create roadmaps and other deliverables.
Andrew: that? I don’t see the commute, I guess there is product school. No
Carlos: go to pro pro school.com/free. You’ll see the entire collection of free resource. Yes.
Andrew: got it. Yeah.
Carlos: My goal with, with the community is to really try to. That’s as much people as possible and help them and give value. I think that’s the first premise here. Yeah. I don’t want to say, do something. I really want to set you up for success.
And then if down the road, there are some of our premium offerings that can help you accelerate that career. Absolutely. But I didn’t want to create just a business. I wanted to create a community first.
Andrew: I see. All right. And so when you say a million members, it’s a million or a million people on lots of different platforms, it seems like the biggest one is the product hunt, Slack community. Right. And number two is the Facebook community.
Carlos: Yes, we are also big on Slack for LinkedIn is, is big for us. Ready? Absolutely quartet, obviously.
Andrew: Yup. And then if I’m trying to understand where you’re getting customers, now, it looks like it’s customers referring other customers.
Right. It looks like it’s also still Cora and places like that. It looks like LinkedIn content is sending you a bunch of traffic. That’s where you’re getting a lot of your customers, right.
Carlos: yes, because we produce a thousand events per year. Those are all online and free and we stream them through our LinkedIn Bates.
Andrew: Oh, okay. All right. So that’s where you’re getting customers. What else? What’s one other thing that I can’t tell on my own, that’s leading you to get more customers. Do you have partnerships? Yeah, go ahead.
Carlos: if you Google it pro school testimony, as our protocol reviews, you will see that we have hundreds, if not thousands of positive reviews from students on Yelp, on Google reviews, on other sites that are focused on education.
Andrew: Yeah. You know what? I saw it, it was switch up.org. You guys have a bunch of reviews on there. That’s really big for you.
Carlos: there’s another one called course report. So that type of word of mouth that I told you at the beginning, which was me having coffee with, with people in person.
Now we’re trying to scale that online.
Andrew: Got it. What’s next for you guys. Let’s close it out with that.
Carlos: We’re beating an entire city education path, not just for aspiring product managers, but also for experience product managers that want to get that next promotion. And what else we’re doing a lot of corporate training for large organizations that want to do more specific custom programs. Yes. For the product teams.
Andrew: All right. The website is product school.com. Not any of these other random top level domains. I actually couldn’t. Let me see if I go product school. Let me just put it in some random top. No, you own the.co product school dunk. Don’t even give me any on this here. Product school.com is what it is. And I want to thank the two sponsors who made this interview happen.
The first you’ve heard me talk about them for so long. If you have a team of people, you need to pay them, you need to know about it, Gusto, go look them up, go research them and you’ll see how good they are. gusto.com/mixergy. We’ll get you started right with those three months for free. And if you are at all trying to recruit customers, trying to get in front of the right people, LinkedIn, you know, is the right way to do it.
Messaging them one-on-one is very effective. It’s very time consuming. There’s piece of software that does this. So freaking well. That it’s going to blow your mind. I want you to go to this URL to get it. It’s called and the URL is get dot dot com slash Mixergy. Get xacto.com. get.dot dot.com/mixergy. I’m grateful to them for sponsoring.
Thanks so much. Bye everyone.