Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their successful companies. And I’ve told you this in past interviews, there is a revolution going on right now. And frankly, in tech, there’s always a revolution. There’s always something brand new. But the thing that’s brand new right now is bots.
Today’s guest started a company with the understanding that it’s hard for people to schedule meetings with each other, and he did what many people did before, which is he created an app. And like many people before him, the app that he created didn’t do so well. Then he turned it into a bot, and boom, the thing took off! Until it didn’t. And then he sold it. This interview is about how he came up with this idea, how he figured out what would work, why it didn’t go huge, and how he sold it at the last minute and made it into a success.
Today’s interview is with Matty Mariansky. He is the founder of Meekan. Meekan is a scheduling application that makes it easy for people to book meetings with each other.
And this interview is sponsored by two fantastic companies. The first will host your website right. It’s called HostGator. And the second will help you hire your next phenomenal developer. It’s called Toptal.
Matty, good to you have you here.
Matty: Hi. Good to be here, Andrew.
Andrew: Do you remember the day that you signed the deal with Doodle to sell your business to them?
Matty: It was like, about the sixth months of ugly before the deal went down. It was clear that both companies want to be together, but just, you know, closing all the details and then waiting for their board to convene. And then, all the details and back and forth. And every now and then it seems like everything is going to fall apart. It was a really hard time. I don’t even remember the actual time that we signed it. This was like the anticlimax for the whole thing.
Andrew: And did you…you didn’t celebrate? You didn’t take a moment? You didn’t do anything? No ice cream?
Matty: Yeah, after that, we celebrated, and [inaudible 00:02:04]…
Andrew: How? How’d you celebrate?
Matty: I don’t think I remember. Probably we stayed up late in the office.
Andrew: That does not sound like the funnest way to celebrate…
Matty: No. Yeah, no.
Andrew: …but it does seem like it’s a relief. And it wasn’t a huge exit, right? How much did you sell for?
Matty: No, I can’t give you the exact number. No, it wasn’t a very big exit, but it was very nice for us.
Andrew: What’s the number?
Matty: I can’t tell you a number, but…
Andrew: Can you give me a sense? Was it over…my sense is it’s somewhere between a quarter million and a million.
Matty: I won’t give you [inaudible 00:02:33] because most of the money is still due. So just like a three-year deal.
Andrew: It’s an earn out?
Matty: Yeah. [inaudible 00:02:43].
Andrew: Over a million dollars, or less?
Matty: Yeah, obviously, obviously. Yeah, [inaudible 00:02:47].
Andrew: Over a million? Okay. All right. I know that we talked before this interview started. You’re not going to go into too much detail about that. But it does give me a sense of where you are, which is amazing that you were able to sell it for, again, just to be clear, over a million dollars, right?
Matty: Yep. Sure.
Andrew: And the reason it’s amazing is because look at the struggles you guys had to get into this. And you’re a guy who’s been in tech for a long time and kept struggling. In fact, Internet 1.0, you were at a search company. What was the name of the search company?
Matty: It was called Search by Media. It was before Google Images was even existing. So this guy was…he came up with the idea [inaudible 00:03:24], let people search the internet for images. There’s so many images on the internet. So they started indexing a lot of images. And there was like this…everything then, you know, like if you had made an app, in the computer it doesn’t look like a real device in the real world. So it looked like this weird device that collected photos from the internet, and you can make albums with it. It never really took off.
Andrew: It frankly feels to me like a very big copyright issue, because you could take any image from the internet and put it into your own album, right?
Matty: Yeah. That was before the invention of copyright.
Andrew: Before people cared about it. There was this sense back then that everything online is communally owned.
Matty: Right. Right, right.
Andrew: But the cool thing about it, yes, I could actually make my own little book of photos that I find online. But the other nice thing was I could search for videos using Search by Media. I could search for music. I could search for images. And at the time, Google wasn’t super huge. We’re talking about roughly 1999, to give people a sense of when this happened. And Yahoo didn’t do image search, as far as I know. Yahoo was still like manually having people take suggested links and discovered links and put them into a database that humans were organizing.
Matty: Yeah, I actually remember that I was using AltaVista. That was my favorite search engine. And one of the guys came in. He said, “Look, why are you using AltaVista? There’s something new called Google.” And I said, you know, “What kind of stupid name is that? It’s never going to take off with that name.” One of many wrong…
Matty: I wasn’t very good at seeing the future. Not then, not now.
Andrew: At the time, you were in Tel Aviv. But one day, you walked into your boss’ office, and you said, “I’m going somewhere.” Where’d you say you were going to go?
Matty: Yeah. So I had this idea that, you know, I want to make it…like the internet is exploding now, and all the startup, you know, are starting to grow up. And I have to be like in the center of things. So I decided I will go to New York. I just made up a decision. And I knew that I will be scared to go to New York when the time comes, so just like, I don’t know, five or six months ahead of time, I bought my one-way ticket. I told my landlord I’m leaving. I told all my friends that I’m going to New York, so I will be really ashamed to not go. Like I really dug a really big hole, and, you know, I fell into that hole. And when the time came, I just had no choice. I had to go to New York. So like one week before the Millennium start I was in New York.
But the funny thing is that once I told everyone that I’m going to New York, all the bricks started falling into, you know, the correct places. And when I went to my boss and I said, “Look, I’m moving to…” He says, “Oh, that’s great, that you’re moving to New York. We are opening a New York office. You can be employee number two over there.” So that was it. I didn’t even have to, you know, quit my job. I just went there. But, you know, like three or four months later, they already closed. It wasn’t a viable company, so they ran out of business. And I was…
Andrew: And it was tough times. We’re talking about after 2000, the internet got a little bit tougher as an industry. What I want to isolate from that story, though, is the guts to say, “I’m picking up and leaving.” You’re a person who grew up in a small town. Even going to Tel Aviv, from what I understand, was a hard move for you, but you did it. And then once you go from Tel Aviv to New York, that’s a pretty dramatic step. I’ve always lived in major cities, where people did that.
I remember even living in L.A., where this girl who…she said she didn’t even have a bathroom. They used to go to the bathroom in tires in her backyard, to give you a sense of it. She still moved to L.A., and she, on her wall, had a chart of all her daily and weekly expenses, to make sure that she could hit her numbers, because she wanted to make it big as an actress. And that kind of guts is, to me, like the key to living life.
But I understand, even for me, it’s hard to do that. Even for me, sometimes I want to go take a step forward or move somewhere, and I feel like, “Well, what about this? What about that?” I like the way that you did it. You just said, “I’m going to do it a few months in the future, and things will work out.” And they did.
You then moved on to another startup, and then at some point, you and Eyal had a conversation. Eyal is the guy who came up with this idea that eventually became Meekan. What was the issue that he had?
Matty: So that was…we’re jumping like into the future to 2014.
Matty: Actually, I met Eyal’s father, who is…his name is Lior. He was like interviewing me. And they were looking for a designer, that they had an idea, and they said…they called me up and they said, “Will you design…” I was a freelance designer back then, and they said, “Would you just design…we just did this one screen. Just design it for us, and…it’s like a few hours’ job.”
Andrew: And that’s it.
Andrew: Oh, I didn’t realize that they’re father and son who had a business…or an idea, and they needed you to design it. But their idea came about because, I guess it was Eyal who had a problem, right? What was the problem that he had back in 2014?
Matty: Yeah. So he was…well, it wasn’t just in 2014. But he was…like he was looking at it, and he said, “I’m spending too much time on organizing meetings, on telling computers that I want to meet someone. And it’s about time.” You know, 2014, it’s the future now. So it’s about time the computers are going to do it for us.
And when he told me that, I was…as a freelancer, I immediately clicked with this idea, because, as a freelance, nobody’s paying you for this overhead of organizing meeting. So my experience was if a client comes in and says, “We have to meet two people.” Right? Not even one. Like you have to schedule with two people. I would just back off and say, “Look, consider me free always. Just tell me when to arrive and I will just do it. Just don’t involve me in the process of scheduling a meeting.”
Matty: And he came up with this idea. He said, “Look, I think I have a way that a computer can, you know, make it possible and schedule for us.”
Andrew: What was his vision? So I get the problem. We all experienced it. You want to schedule with a client. You want to schedule with a co-worker. It’s really tough. I’ve actually talked to friends in big organizations. I said, “How do you guys do it?” And a friend of mine who works at Microsoft said, “You know what? It’s kind of weird. I went from the startup world to Microsoft, and what I realize is, in bigger organizations like Microsoft, the junior person has to accept the senior person’s time.” So a senior person could just go and see your calendar and put himself on and do it. Because it’s such a pain, you have to have rules like this.
When he had this issue, before you came and designed it, what was his solution to that problem?
Matty: So he said, “Okay, the problem is that we’re always micromanaging our calendars.” So if I want to meet with you, I would normally say, “Okay, let’s open my…” It’s even metaphorically a book, right? You say, “Let’s open my book, and how are you doing on this square, and how are you doing with that square?” We’re trying to find those square by square in the calendar, and he said, “No. Instead we have to build a computer, or you know, the system. Tell it my intention. What is my intention?”
So I want to have coffee with Andrew next week. Okay, this is something we can work with, right, because we have a range of time. We say, “Okay, this is coffee. So obviously, it’s not going to be at night. It’s like probably morning or noon. And next week, so, you know, it’s between…” Okay, it’s already getting complicated because my weekend is Friday and Saturday in Tel Aviv, and in [inaudible 00:10:51] Americans it’s…so Sunday is off for us and Friday is off for me. So, okay, you have to figure out. That’s, you know, Monday to [inaudible 00:10:59]…
Andrew: For Andrew, Monday through Friday is next week. For Matty, Sunday through Thursday is next week. Right. So did he say, “We’re going to create software that connects the people’s calendars, and then you tell the software, ‘I want to schedule with someone for next week,’ and the software will know about when next week is and how to book it in my calendar”?
Matty: Exactly. And you’ll find…
Andrew: And it would happen via what? Email?
Matty: It will find most…you know, when will both of us have free time on next week for coffee. And then we just say, “Okay, this looks good. Everyone is free. I will just book it and put it in the calendar.”
Andrew: Okay. So the way that you’re imagining it is, if our listener right now…if I wanted to schedule a meeting with our listener, I would send…I would use your app, back then, connect your app to my calendars — plural, I have lots of them now — and then I would say to the person…or add the person and say, “I need to have lunch,” via your app. Your app would email the person a link to the App Store to download the app. They would install the app on their phones — iPhone at the time, and we’ll get to why — and then connect their calendar. And at that point, boom, you get a match.
Matty: Yeah. So we said, “Okay, people are not going to download the app just because you ask them to.” So if it’s someone who is not already connected, I am going to generate options for him on your behalf and send it over to him and said, “Okay, these are four options that Andrew is offering you.” So you can pick either one of those. And if you don’t [inaudible 00:12:28]…
Andrew: I see. So they don’t even have to download the app.
Andrew: They just pick from the list.
Matty: But if you want me to pick for you, download the app, and I will do this automatically next time for you. So you won’t even have to do the job on your side.
Andrew: Ah, okay. So that’s what he created. That’s what he came to you and said, “Here is the thing that we have in mind. Make it look clear and easy to use.”
Matty: Yeah. So what he made looked like, you know, the type of apps you see on a [dentist’s 00:12:53] screen, right? It’s like all gray buttons with millions of buttons.
Matty: And [inaudible 00:12:58]…and I really liked the idea, and I said looked at it. I said, “Okay, there’s tons of work to do here, guys.” Instead of hiring me as a freelancer, I want to come on board as a co-founder with you guys.
Andrew: Okay. Why? What was…
Matty: And I was [inaudible 00:13:14]…
Andrew: What drew you to this?
Matty: First of all, I really like the…you know, to be in a startup again. I really like this work. I thought that they have a lot of work to do there and a lot that I can bring to the table in there. And most of all, both Eyal and Lior are really, really nice people. I immediately saw that these are people that I can work with for a long time and probably will not have too many fights. Not too much shouting.
And I thought we are all like three people that really complement each other, because I was bringing design and product, Eyal was a really, really good coder, and Lior was coming from, you know, the management world. So it’s like, looked like a triangle…it looked like a really, really good fit, and I was lucky enough that they accepted. They said, “Okay, okay. Let’s…you come on board and let’s start working.”
Andrew: And it was all equal share ownership of the business.
Matty: Almost equal share. Yeah. It was really fair. A very fair deal. So I mean, yeah.
Andrew: All right. And so you designed it. Why did you design just an iOS app?
Matty: So we had to start with something, and both of us…all of us, all three of us had the iPhones. So we said, “We’d better stick to what we know.” Obviously, this has to be something mobile, on-the-go, and connected to your calendar, so let’s start with the iOS app. And we were convinced that the…
Andrew: I still wonder, why an iOS app? Why not say, “It’s going to be a web app?”
Matty: Our thinking was that it will work better when it’s mobile. So it can give you [inaudible 00:14:57]…
Andrew: But you can still make a web app into a mobile app. All you need is for somebody to log in one time, connect their calendars, and then every time they go to Meekan.com, their calendars show up, as long as they’re logged in, and they could select the time or whatever it is that they want.
Matty: Yeah. I’m not sure that the calendar correction is so easy when it’s a web app. That’s the first thing. But the second thing, I don’t know, back then in 2014, our thinking was that the native experience would be like the best way to start with things and see, you know, what’s working and what’s not. And we can always…that’s what our thinking, [inaudible 00:15:30] start with the Android…we start with the iPhone, and then we move on to other things.
Because, you know, when you have one developer, one designer, you have to like, “Okay, let’s do something small enough so we can, you know, we can take it, this bite and not choke on it. And let’s move from there and see what’s going on.”
Andrew: Okay. I see on Product Hunt, your launch. We’re going to talk about what happened when you launched, in a moment.
Let me first talk about my first sponsor. It is a company called HostGator, for hosting websites. More and more people are putting their content on other sites, like…are you on Facebook? Are you on Medium? Where are you? I’m asking you specifically, Matty.
Matty: Myself? Yeah, I am on Medium. Yeah.
Andrew: You are on Medium, for your blog posts, right?
Matty: Yeah, our blog is on Medium.
Andrew: And then for social, are you a Twitter person or a Facebook person?
Matty: I just joined Twitter not so long ago, like three months or something like that. I have a very nice group on Facebook about artificial intelligence in Israel, so I really like to nurture that. I post there like almost every single day, [inaudible 00:16:35].
Andrew: Yeah. And so I’m finding more and more people have businesses that are really spread out. Their blog is hosted on Medium, their images are hosted on Instagram, and that’s maybe their social. Maybe if they have timely messages, they put it on Twitter. I’m noticing more and more Facebook groups being organized around topics. You know, they used to be on people’s websites using vBulletin Board and so on. And so the question is, why do I even need a website for a new idea?
And the reason is that people are still doing massive searches. Whenever they want to find something, they’re still doing a search. Frankly, for you, I search you. We all search people. My team Googled you so much to get a sense of where you are. And so, even if our websites are just simple pointers to everything else that we’re doing, they’re easy to set up and easy to maintain. And so we might as well do it, so that when someone searches for us on Google or…anyone using Bing? No one’s really using Bing. Whatever it is that we’re using.
Andrew: People are more excited about DuckDuckGo these days than even Bing.
Andrew: But whatever search engine they’re in, they’re going to type your name in or your idea in, and then they’ll end up on your website. And then from there, they could be directed to the stuff that you want to direct them to. And so I recommend that if anyone needs one of these pointer websites, they just go to HostGator.
HostGator.com makes it super easy to start up a website. With one click, you can install WordPress and be up and running. I actually love their Medium price plan, you know, what they call the “Baby” plan, because, for about $3.98 a month — actually that’s exactly it, if you sign up for a plan, $3.98 a month — you end up with the ability to launch unlimited domains. So you could create, you know, what I did. I started with Mixergy.com doing one thing, and then I said, “You know what? Let’s create blog.mixergy.com. Doesn’t cost much. Blog.mixergy.com will be this crazy idea that I have for a podcast.” That little crazy idea didn’t cost me anything, but it took off. It became a thing.
So I’d like for everyone who’s listening to me to not just host on HostGator, but to get unlimited domains so that every little idea that they have can easily create a website. You can easily create a website for it and then explore how far you can go with your idea. You never know. This podcast did not mean to be a standalone business. It was just like a thing that I did for fun, and then it turned out to be a big thing.
So go to HostGator.com/mixergy. You’ll get unlimited domains for that Baby plan. You’ll also, regardless of the plan that you pick, you’re going to get unmetered disk space, unmetered bandwidth. They’re not going to charge you extra if more people come to your website. Unlimited email addresses, so you can have things like sales@, you know, customersupport@, etc. I have email@example.com. That’s my temporary email address that I give people when I don’t want them to have my real email address. It helps to have unlimited email addresses.
And then, if you’re not happy with them, they’ve got a 45 day money-back guarantee. If you’re listening to the sound of my voice, go to HostGator.com/mixergy so you can get that 60% plus off their already low prices, and they’ll make it super easy for you to get started. HostGator.com/mixergy.
What happened after you launched the app?
Matty: Nothing happened. Yeah, I mean, there’s…I remember the experience of…remembering that the users…we had a few users who really liked it, and I knew them by name, right? I knew all of them by name. Like I had a relationship with those users. And the rest of the users was just…one of the concepts of the app was, we said, “We’re not going to show you the calendar, because we’re going to do everything for you. So why should you look on the calendar? You should trust us. Just tell us what you want, and it’s going to happen.” Nobody got it.
And you actually had to pick from a menu…it was like a really nice, animated menu and everything. But you had to pick from it and say, “I want to meet Andrew next week or tomorrow or the weekend.” You like had a button for every one of those choices. Everything was really nice. I had…you know, everything I knew about user interfaces, I put into it. But it just…people didn’t get it. It just didn’t work, so…
Andrew: You know, the most telling thing about the launch is, on Product Hunt, Ryan Hoover said that he wants this to…here’s what he says exactly. “I want connected calendars to exist. It’s ridiculous how much time and money hiring VAs and EAs and so on, how much time and money we spend coordinating schedules. I’m skeptical that anyone except for one of the big players like Google, Apple, or maybe Facebook can pull this off on a massive scale.”
And so he goes on to basically say, “I need this. I have this problem. As a guy who runs Product Hunt, I see other product developers, other entrepreneurs, other product enthusiasts with the same problem.” And still he doesn’t say, “I’m glad this exists. I want to go try it.” That’s the thing that’s missing. The guy who is on here to try all this software sees the problem and didn’t use it. And you’re saying the reason that he and others were skipping this is it was too confusing.
Matty: Yeah, it just…you couldn’t get what we were trying to do. And there was no way for us to come over and, you know, tap your shoulder and say, “This is what you’re trying to do. It’s so easy. Just…” You know, the people who did get it, and, like I said, they were very few of them, they were like using it like crazy. They like really, really loved it.
It was really, really easy to get…to meet people because it just generated those [inaudible 00:21:45] for you from your calendar, and it just send them away, and it took all the…it offloaded all the trouble of scheduling to someone else, to your invitee, instead of to you. And you could invite as many people as you wanted. You could connect as many calendars as you wanted. It could be…you know, we didn’t care if it’s iCloud or Google or Microsoft.
Andrew: And you think that the reason that people weren’t using this is that the interface was too confusing or too new for them? Or what do you think it is?
Matty: The idea was unfamiliar, and there was nothing in the interface to explain the idea good enough for people to understand what’s going on to use it. That’s [inaudible 00:22:26].
Andrew: So then, you decided to create an Android version. Why create an Android version next instead of saying, “I’m going to talk to the users who are not using this and understand what we could do to fix it”?
Matty: Yeah. So our thought was, “Okay, maybe we started with a too difficult use case.” So the Android app was actually a totally different app. It’s like wasn’t a copy of the iOS. It’s like trying to attack the problem for a different space. And we said, “Okay. This one is for work groups who are working together.” It’s either people that are always meeting. It could be, you know, your basketball game friends, or it could be like…
Andrew: Or coworkers.
Matty: Yeah, or students who are always meeting for study groups or, you know. So these people are always meeting together, so all of them will connect their calendars, because they have the interest to be together. And then scheduling for them will be like super, super easy because this would be the perfect Meekan world where everyone has their calendars connected. It knows everyone’s schedules. So it will work so much better if we do this this way.
Andrew: Okay. And so how did that go for you?
Matty: Yeah, that was…that didn’t go either, as well.
Andrew: Also didn’t work.
Matty: I mean, we didn’t have…yeah, we didn’t have too much of marketing power in the team. That was like that’s the missing role in the team, I guess, was the marketing. And also the retention numbers weren’t great. So it’s like people were downloading it, and all the app…you know, the problems you have with apps [inaudible 00:23:53] is people downloading it and forgetting they even downloaded it, or trying it for like one time, and it like says, “Connect your calendars.” They say, “Oh, forget it. I’m not going to do it, and bye-bye.” And you know, the step of having all your group connected, that was like, you know, crazy far away. Nobody was going to do that.
Andrew: I see. Right, right. Because now everyone on my team needs to go get this thing and install it on their phone. And there is a barrier to installation, and then there’s a barrier to getting somebody to use the app multiple times. Just getting it installed is not the win.
Matty: Yeah, a thousand barriers.
Andrew: At that point did you guys decide…at that point did you guys consider giving up? Did you say, “Listen, we had this idea. It’s not working. Let’s move on.”
Matty: No, no, no. We didn’t consider giving up. We just…
Andrew: Why? Why didn’t you say, “This is not working. Let’s move on”?
Matty: Because the idea was so good that it’s impossible not…there has to be a way to make it work. It’s impossible [inaudible 00:24:46]…
Andrew: What made you think that it was so good?
Matty: Because this was, you know, the classic “scratching my own itch.” And you know that this was a huge problem for people. I knew it was a problem for me, and there’s a lot of people like me in the world. And we just have to…you know, we just have to figure that…find this one little crack in the wall and crawl through it. And then [inaudible 00:25:09]…
Andrew: But wait, it wasn’t really a problem for you. You solved it. You said, “Look…” You solved it the way other people do. Easy solution. I’m a freelancer. You’re the client. Pick any time you want and I’ll be available to talk to you. You solved it.
Matty: Right. But this…
Andrew: How did you know that other people didn’t solve it?
Matty: Yeah, this solution is the easy…that’s the easiest case to solve, because that’s like for one-on-one appointment, there’s tons of good solutions that actually are out there, that say I will expose my calendar to you and you will pick whatever you want, and I will…you know, I will bow down to you, and I will say, “Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir, for picking your spot and I will just take it.” So that’s like the easy case. One-on-one, it’s pretty much solved, I think.
But when you have to do 5 people, when you have to do 10 people, when you have to do a board meeting…think about that board meeting that you have. People, you know, they schedule it like two months ahead of time, and they say, “This is set in stone. You are not going to move it. Nobody is going to. Everybody has to show up at this time.” And, you know, maybe physically it would be more comfortable for everyone to move it two hours, but nobody even is going to check. Nobody’s even going to suggest…
Andrew: Right. It might even be better for everybody if they move the meeting two hours later.
Andrew: But no one’s going to check because it might just open up the whole problem again. What I’m wondering is, how did you know that this was a problem? Did you see people complain about it? Did you get emails from people? You’re just saying, “I felt it. I saw it around me.” Is that right?
Matty: Yes, yes. No, everyone. We did speak to a lot of people. We spoke to…you know, the next product we launched was for Outlook, because we spoke to a lot of assistants who were like, you know, personal assistants, so people who schedule a lot for other people, and they have this problem. Like they would say one of the biggest problems they had was just somebody scheduling for you, right? And they say, “Here’s four options,” so you have to shut down those four options in the calendar. And then, you know, delete the one…one of them is actually the schedule.
And this was something that we did like as a side effect of the main thing that we did. This was like…and we had an assistant who said, “Oh my god. This is the one thing I need is just put these four options and then delete the other three when I actually schedule.” And they said, “Look! But it’s doing so much more.” And they said, “Oh my god.” She didn’t even dream about…you know, she wanted the fastest horse, but she didn’t even dream about the car. And when you show her the car, they said, “Oh my god, I wish it was…”
Andrew: How formal were these conversations with assistants and people in enterprise before you came out with Outlook?
Matty: We just…we did a lot of VC rounds, right, and tried to raise money. So whenever we would go to a VC, we’d catch these assistants and, you know, talk to them and see, “Would you like that to happen?” I mean, we had someone who said, “I really want something that would just say no to people, because I feel bad about saying no. So if something would say no, I could blame that something.” It says, “Oh, I really wanted to meet you, but this crazy app said no. I’m sorry, I don’t know what’s going on.” [inaudible 00:28:09]…
Andrew: I want my assistant to do that. I keep telling her, “I am so bad saying no to people. Can you please, on my behalf? You’re in my inbox anyway. Just say to everyone, ‘I need to be a little bit more disciplined on behalf of Andrew and say no.'” All right. So I see that the evolution of the business includes more customer research. That at first it was more you-centric, and later it was more of your awareness of other people. And then, when it comes to enterprise, you gave me an example of how you went to VCs and you ask their assistants, and you checked in how they were meeting.
But I see more than that as I research you. For example, on your website, before you launched enterprise, you said, “Contact us to learn more.” And what you were trying to do was get people who were curious about this to give you insight into why they wanted this for Outlook. Am I right?
Matty: Right. And also, one more thing that we discovered is the more people we talked to, the more opinions you have about it, because almost everyone has an opinion about it, and almost everyone has their own system to solve it and the way they think this thing should operate. And like all of them see it as a problem, but every one of them had some kind of, you know, a different solution. You know, [inaudible 00:29:18]…
Andrew: So how do you go from all that to what you ended up launching next, which is…what was the next big evolution? The one that hit big?
Matty: Yeah. So we said, “Okay. People don’t understand the interface.” And we tried to go back to the basics and see what we were trying to do. And the base of everything was for people to convey their intent, right? Like I told you, “I want to meet Andrew next week for coffee,” right? I don’t want to meet Andrew on Thursday at 12:00. That’s not what I want. I want to meet him sometime next week, or maybe the next week later, for coffee. Right? And if I ever had the like…oh, the alarm is going off here. I hope it’s not going to reach [inaudible 00:30:01]…
Andrew: Like a fire alarm?
Matty: No, the…I’m like the only one here, so I hope it’s not going to [inaudible 00:30:05].
Andrew: Okay, well we can keep going. I’m not hearing it.
Matty: Okay. So what’s the best people for people…the best way…sorry. What’s the best way for people to convey their intent is to use language, right? This is like for 100,000 years. I don’t know how long we’ve been using language to say what we actually want. Why don’t we let people just, you know, say what they actually want and then go ahead and do it for them?
And we said, “Okay, the one way to do it…like if I really had an assistant, a hired assistant, I would just go to that assistant and say, ‘I want to meet Andrew next week. Just make it happen.'” So let’s make something that you just talk to and tell him that thing. And we said, “Oh my god, we have to build a bot. We have to build a chatbot. That’s the solution.” And, you know, that’s what we did. We built…back then it was kind of primitive, but that’s what we did.
Andrew: You built a chatbot for which platform?
Matty: So it was for Slack. [inaudible 00:31:02]…
Andrew: Why Slack? The problem with Slack is only people who are in the Slack group, which is often coworkers, can schedule with each other. Why did you decide to make that shift?
Matty: You know, you just described the perfect world for Meekan, right? This is a closed group of coworkers who schedule with each other. That was like the best case for us. These people schedule with…
Matty: These people schedule with each other all the time anyway. And so they are more likely to connect their calendars. Even if they are in the same company, they can connect all their calendars in one go. Okay, the admin can connect all the calendars in one go. And then Meekan will know everyone’s schedule. And this would be like the perfect world for Meekan to be in, because everybody is scheduled with each other anyway. So they don’t even have to go outside and offer…Meekan could just go [makes sounds] and find the…you know, in five seconds find the right time for everyone.
Andrew: Why’d you call it Meekan, by the way?
Matty: Meekan, in Hebrew, is, “Who is here?”
Andrew: Who’s here.
Matty: That’s Hebrew, “Who is here?” It’s actually a name from one of Eyal’s older startups. It was about finding out celebrities. People could spot celebrities and say to other people, “If you want to get a selfie with this celeb, he is here.” So it was called, “Who is here?” [inaudible 00:32:18]…
Andrew: Gawker had one of those. They called it Gawker Stalker. You can go in and see where the celebrities are, or if you see a celebrity, you report it to everyone. All right, so what I’m seeing is…
Matty: That’s Meekan in Hebrew.
Andrew: …you noticed the problem, that people have trouble booking. You created iOS. You evolved it by saying, “You know what? We don’t want everyone to do it with…we want to limit ourselves to groups.” And so, when you launched Android, you used that lesson, and you created an app just for groups. Then you realized it’s too much work to get everyone on the group to download something, and you said, “Okay. The next step is let’s get rid of the download, and let’s get rid of the buttons and make it as natural as possible.” And that way you went into Slack.
I have the Product Hunt Slack…sorry, when you guys launched on Slack, now Ryan Hoover was much more excited about this. Now, he says, “This is one of many examples of Slack becoming a platform, and it’s integrated into our daily routines, so the tools we use to communicate with each other. There’s a huge opportunity here to disrupt — yes, I said the word ‘disrupt’ — many incumbents, including scheduling calendar services, etc., including Facebook.”
So now, he went from saying in the past, “We need the big guys to come in here and fix calendar,” to saying, “You know what? Maybe this new system is going to disrupt the big guys. This new system is that good.” And in fact, overall, how would you categorize the reaction on Product Hunt when you announced it?
Matty: So we were first for that day. We came in, you know, first place on that day. That was really exciting for us. And we got, you know, a few thousand downloads, people trying to install it into Slack. And really, the experience was like, a change of…you know, overnight change for all the KPIs we had. Everything, everything changed in one night.
I mean, even you could see the support mail, I was…up to this day, I’m always…I’m answering all the support mail. And the support mail day before that was like, “Oh, this is not working. Oh, [inaudible 00:34:30], I don’t like it too much. I deleted it.” So it’s like really like whiny, I would say. And like one day later it’s, “Oh my god, this is so nice. This is so great. Would you just do this one thing for me? If I only had this one thing, I would use it forever.” People used the word, you know, “love.” Like things that we never saw before. And it was like, really overnight, everything changed.
So okay, we knew that we were on to something because we saw that people were finally getting what we were trying to do. They were talking to this thing, and this thing was answering back. And people were getting, you know, meetings. They were scheduling meetings with it. They were using it. They were getting other people to, you know, connect calendars. It was working. You know, the idea was working. And it was…people were telling it, “I want to meet Andrew next week for coffee,” and they were getting times for next week for coffee. It was beautiful.
Andrew: Yeah, and the reason that it took off was, partially, Slack was a new platform, where people were excited, and they didn’t overload the platform with apps.
Andrew: [inaudible 00:35:35]. And then the second one is it’s more natural to communicate, in general, with people, with software, etc., using just natural language. Instead of figuring out an interface, to just say, “I want to book coffee with Dave,” and then having the whole software take over from there.
Matty: Right. Yeah.
Andrew: And that’s the promise of chatbots. That’s the promise of this new system. But how did you do it? How did you go from creating an interface with buttons, which is much easier to do, to creating an interface that’s nonexistent, that’s all…it’s all text? Who coded this? How did you guys get to build this up and make it intelligent?
Matty: I had really, really small experience from like, I don’t know, 20 years ago in the IRC. You could build like a really small script bots that you could use to…you know, in the [channel 00:36:25], they would kick people out if they said like, I don’t know, naughty words or they would run games or stuff like that. So I wrote a few. And I knew that people…you know, when a machine talks to them, they are…it’s very easy to suspend your belief and say, believe there’s…you’re talking to a person.
So our first goal was say, “Okay, let’s make something that will make you feel like there’s a physical robot behind the curtain somewhere, which is actually typing stuff and making like [geeky 00:36:57] jokes, and, you know, trying to come back to you with, you know, all kinds of funny stuff.” And so the first thing we did…
Andrew: But how did you…did you use…do you use someone else’s natural language processing service to understand what…
Matty: Yeah, we…
Andrew: …people…what did you use?
Matty: Yeah, we started with Microsoft LUIS. Back then it was really the best one, and we had the…back then, you had either LUIS API AI, or Wit AI from Facebook.
Matty: LUIS was at the highest level, I think, back then, and we started using it. And we trained it with 100 sentences. We thought that, “Okay, we have 100 sentences. We’re good to go.” And we’re really naive about a lot of things back then. Right now, we have like, I don’t know, I guess over 8,000 sentences for just starting a new meeting. Just asking for a new meeting, it has like 8,000…
Andrew: How do you get the 800 sentences?
Matty: So you just use the…you know, you look what…you know, at the end of the day, you can look at the sentences that the bot didn’t get and feed it back into the system and [inaudible 00:38:04]…
Andrew: And all these platforms, I think, they show you what the bot didn’t get, and then they…and they make it easy for you within their interface to say, “Here’s what this should do. The intent behind this is that.” And then it starts to understand it. Right?
Matty: Yes. So it’s much better now. It used to be more difficult back then. But, yes. Yes. That’s like one of the feedback you have to…you have to install a feedback into your system to make sure that it gets smarter all the time, and not, you know, not frustrating. So we’re…
Andrew: An example you guys gave back then on Product Hunt was, Amy says, “Meekan, show in Sydney time,” meaning show the available times that my coworker wants to meet me, “show it in Sydney time.” And then Meekan understands it. What you would then do is…it’s the NLP software, that…you send that phrase to the NLP software. The NLP software says, “I understand this because I’ve seen similar phrases before. Here’s what I need…I’m going to send back to the software,” and the software knows what to kick out. Right?
Matty: Right. No, so the…when you send it…
Andrew: Yeah, how does it work?
Matty: You send it to the NLU, and it says, “Okay, this is the intent. This is the intent of the user. Right now he wants to start a new meeting, or maybe it’s just a greeting. Maybe it’s an insult.” Right? It classifies the intent of the sentence, and then it says to you, “Okay, maybe if we ask them…”
Okay, new meeting with Andrew next week for coffee. So it will say, “Okay, the intent here is new meeting.” And it’s trying to figure out what is the zone. “Next week” is the time range, and “coffee” would be…you know, “next week” is like, the day range, and “coffee” would be like the time range inside the days. And “Andrew” is the name of a person you want to meet with. And sometimes they would say, “Call it a weekly coffee.” So that’s…”a weekly coffee” is the name of the meeting.
So then NLP engine is supposed to give you back all this data, which is, you know, taken off the sentence. So it tells you what’s the general intent is, and what are the little pieces of the sentence inside. And then it’s up to your software to figure out what to do next with that.
Andrew: All right, let me take a moment here to talk about my sponsor, because anyone who wants to incorporate this into their software should know that…you got software. It works. You know how to build your stuff, but you want to start adding something like natural language processing to your software. You want to start taking advantage of some of the things that you’re seeing people do in Mixergy interviews. But maybe your team is overstretched. Maybe they just don’t have enough experience in this. That’s where Toptal comes in.
Many teams are doing great at what they do, but they want to add something brand new, and they don’t have the bandwidth to do it. And so what they do is they go to Toptal. In fact, if you go to Toptal right now, you’re going to see that they have lots of developers who are really the best of the best developers, who have experience doing what we’re talking about here, Matty and I.
And you say to them, “Here’s our software. Here’s what we have in mind. Do you have a developer who’s done something similar who can add this level?” And once you do…once they do, they could say, “All right, here’s our two or three people. Have a conversation with them, or have your CTO talk to them.” And if they’re the right people, you can hire them super fast, often within a matter of days.
So anyone who’s listening to the sound of my voice and says, “I want to do some of the stuff I’m hearing in Mixergy interviews. I just don’t have the bandwidth. My team is overstretched.” Or, “We want someone who has experience in this, instead of starting from scratch.” I want you to know you can just go to Toptal.com/mixergy and just hire the best of the best. And we know they’re the best of the best because Toptal has tested them, and Toptal has interviewed them, and Toptal has sent them out on jobs. Toptal has watched how they work with their clients and only add them to their network and only keep them in their network if they are the best of the best developers.
And so, if you’re looking to hire a developer, right now go to Toptal.com/mixergy. Once you go there, you’re going to see that they’re offering our people, my interviewees, my audience, something they’re not offering anyone else, which is 80 hours of Toptal developer credit when you pay for your first 80 hours, and that’s in addition to a no-risk trial period of up to two weeks.
But frankly, before you even get started with them, forget the 80 free hours, forget the trial period of up to two weeks, you could just start a conversation. You could just hit that “Start Your Trial” button right now, and immediately schedule a call with a matcher at Toptal. And once you do, you could tell them, “Here’s what I have in mind. Can your people do this for me?” And they’ll let you know. Often they’ll turn people down. And if it’s the right fit, you can get started within days.
So it’s “top,” as in top of your head, “tal” as in talent. That’s Toptal.com/mixergy. All right, so everything was going really well for you. And then, why did you have to let go of your whole team?
Matty: Yeah. So everything was going well, except, you know, for the part of the…the money part, right? We were not charging for Meekan. Actually, we’re not charging for it up to this day. I mean, we are…
Andrew: Even today, anyone who’s listening to me can go add it to Slack, but not have to pay?
Matty: It’s totally free up to this day. [inaudible 00:42:59]…
Andrew: Why didn’t you start charging? Why didn’t you say to everyone who was signed up, “A lot of this is for free, but a few features that only the top users need is going to be paid”?
Matty: We were thinking what we need to go is to…we need to get to the point of, “This is going to be so good that you are not going to be able to go back to doing things the old way. You’re not going to be able to go back to micromanaging your calendar the way you did it. Or, you know, scheduling with someone…let’s say you’re on Google and you’re scheduling with someone on Microsoft, so you can’t even share the calendars. Even if you are in the same company sometimes. We want to be…the service should be so good that people are not going to be able to leave it, and then we can start charging.
And we said, “If we’re going to start…charge too soon, we’re not going to be able to learn a lot from…” You know, not too many users who are paying for it. And we wonder…there was so much to learn and I know…when we started out, we were really naive about scheduling. I could give you an example. Like let’s say your calendar is always free on Wednesday, right? Always. Like one year back, you never have any meetings on Wednesday.
Matty: So a naive bot or a naive scheduling engine would say, “Oh, Wednesdays are empty. Let’s squeeze some meetings in there.” But actually it just means that, you know, Wednesday is your family day or whatever. You never have meetings on Wednesday, and you never want meetings on Wednesday, and you don’t even want to tell the bot…you know, it’s an assistant. If it was a personal assistant, it just knows that. You’re not going to tell him, “Wednesday is off.” And if, you know, you have a naive algorithm, it will say, “Okay, Wednesday is free. I’m going to squeeze meetings in there.” This is actually what [inaudible 00:44:34]…
Andrew: And so you kept saying, “I need this. This one more thing, or another thing, or another thing, before I can charge.” Was that a mistake in retrospect?
Matty: I still don’t know how to answer this question, because when we start…
Andrew: Right. Because you can’t A/B test life.
Matty: If we start charging and, you know, we end up with one user left, then we know it was a mistake.
Andrew: But no, let me ask you this. There are two problems with being a bot on Slack. The first is only the admin, only the person who has the power to add apps can do this. So it’s hard for things to spread. And then the second one is I could install a bot, but I could forget that it exists. There’s no way for it to…or how do you handle both? Let’s start with the first one. Someone sees this on Product Hunt. They want it. How do you get them to install it or get their team to install it?
Matty: So actually, when Slack started out with bots, every new bot that you added automatically joined the general channel, the main channel. It’s like the default barrier for bots, you couldn’t stop it. This was like amazing for us, because we would join the general, and [inaudible 00:45:34] say, “Hi, my name is Meekan. I’m a scheduling bot. Start working with me.” Everyone in the company would see it, and we would like…you know, we can’t [inaudible 00:45:42]…
Andrew: But not everyone in the company could install it. How would you get the person who needs to install it to know about, or the person who wants it but doesn’t have the admin power to tell the admin to go do it.
Matty: Yeah, so a lot of companies like still have a install power for everyone. [inaudible 00:45:58]…
Matty: Yeah. A lot of people just…everyone can install. Everyone can remove apps. You can’t even shut that down. Everyone can remove an app in the company. You can’t stop that from…it happens all the time. Yeah, sometimes it’s the admin, but a lot of times the admin himself is like the early adopter and he like really wants to try to new stuff. Or people are coming to him and saying, “Why can’t you solve this scheduling problem for us?” And he just looks it up and he installs it.
We call this guy our “champion.” The guy who installs Meekan in Slack, we call him our champion, and we always look up to him to, you know, tell everyone in the company about Meekan. But, of course, it’s not enough. That’s like a huge problem for bots. People will just forget about the bot, you know, after a week with no [inaudible 00:46:47]…
Andrew: So what do you do to remind them?
Matty: So the first thing, and I’m quoting Nir Eyal in here, but the first thing in creating a habit is to have a trigger. Right? You have to do something that will start the habit loop. So you have to come up with as many triggers as you can possibly think of. Anything, anything, anything. You always have to be triggering and reminding people that you exist.
Andrew: So what are your triggers.
Matty: So, because we are a calendar bot, we have…the easiest one is just reminders. Okay, we’re going to remind you that you have a meeting in 10 minutes. Would you like me to tell you all your meetings every morning? [inaudible 00:47:23]…
Andrew: Oh, via like, direct message. Via private message.
Matty: Right. Right.
Andrew: Oh, okay. All right. So you’re talking about Nir Eyal, the author of the book “Hooked,” which is a book about how to create addictive experiences. And you’re saying, “We need a trigger. Since we have their calendar, we could keep coming up with these triggers by pinging people privately and saying, ‘You’ve got a meeting.'” Okay, so you look for all these different reasons to trigger them. What’s the next step in his process?
Matty: Actually, this step is so important that when people come up to me and they say, “But my bot doesn’t have any cues to remind people they exist,” I am telling you, you have to find a use case that has an excuse to remind [inaudible 00:48:01]. Otherwise, don’t even start. There’s no point. I mean…and in Alexa, you know, in the voice interface, it’s even worse, because there’s just…there’s no way for you to trigger the beginning. So it’s really, really difficult [inaudible 00:48:13]…
Andrew: Yeah, and that’s why Alexa is…it’s not a great experience yet for developers. Okay, so you had your trigger. The next step is an action. The person has to take some kind of action.
Matty: And in our case, I can tell you that we’re not only trying to create a new habit, but we’re actually trying to replace the habit that you already have, right? I mean, Google Calendar is pretty good, right? Everybody’s using it because it’s really, really good. And we tried to come up with a habit that will replace the old ways of doing things with a new habit.
So there’s a few things that you have to take care of if you want to replace habits. So first of all, you have to come up with the triggers. And then you have to make sure that the triggers have enough…Nir Eyal called it “velocity” and “frequency,” right? So you have to be first. Your trigger has to come up before the other triggers that you want to replace. So if someone is on Slack, then we have the advantage of, you know, maybe you will see us first before you see this Google notification. [inaudible 00:49:08]…
Andrew: Okay. All right. But then they still have to take an action. That’s the next step in Nir’s framework.
Andrew: What’s the action that people take with you?
Matty: Yeah. So we try to load the reminders that we have with as many actions as possible, because, you know, the other reminders don’t have actions. So obviously, you can, you know, you can say, “Cancel the meeting,” right there. Or you can say…you can tell everyone you’re late, or you can reschedule. Because Meekan is a scheduler, and it says…your meeting comes up in 10 minutes, you can say, “Reschedule this meeting for me.” And it says, “Okay, here are five options,” and you can just move it to tomorrow right there and then. Right there in the reminder.
So you got tons of things you can do in the reminder, and we’re always adding. You can snooze it, and you can…well, you can do like, I don’t know, five or six different things just with the reminder, just with this little [inaudible 00:49:52] message that says, “You have a meeting in 10 minutes.” We take all the links that you have, if you have like a Zoom link or a Skype link beside, we float it to the top so it’s like one click for you to do it.
Andrew: One click to join the Zoom meeting…
Andrew: …if it’s a Zoom. All right, so that’s brilliant. Okay, so you’ve got your triggers, and then you have the action. The next step in his framework is they have to have a reward for doing it, and I think I get the reward, because if you make it easy for me to reschedule my meeting, or tell people it’s late, that’s very satisfying. It takes all this pressure that I have about being late and immediately, with one hit, gets rid of it. And so that’s a reward. Am I right?
Matty: It’s a beautiful reward. It’s a crazy reward.
Matty: I mean…or, when you’re scheduling a new meeting, you scheduled…I mean, if you look at the median time that our users take to schedule a meeting, even it’s like five people, how long it takes you to schedule a meeting with five people? Like days, weeks. I don’t know. Meekan, the median time is 52 seconds. So if you schedule a meeting with 5 people in 52 seconds, I don’t know, you feel like a Superman, the meeting Superman, right? It’s like a huge reward.
And Meekan also will always try to come up with something funny. It says, “That was beautifully scheduled, if I may say so.” Or, you know, we say like, things that says, [inaudible 00:51:08]…
Andrew: Just to keep emphasizing the reward. You triggered them, they took action, you need to keep rewarding them to keep them coming back and expecting that the next trigger is going to result in this happiness.
Andrew: And then, finally, in his framework is an investment. The user has to invest in it to make it better. And Nir, when I…he did a course on Mixergy about this. I think that the example he gave was, “Look at Instagram. People invest in making their Instagram page and profile look better and better every time. And as a result, they feel more ownership of it.” What’s your investment for [inaudible 00:51:38]…
Matty: So, first of all, we see that scheduling a meeting actually reloads the next trigger, because once you schedule a meeting, you will have the reminders coming up right there, and you have a way to reschedule. And the investment is, when you see that the system is working, you’d actually ask more people to connect their calendars. So otherwise, you won’t be able to…you know, Meekan would be blind to their calendars, and then the…you know, the process is not that smooth anymore.
Andrew: Ah, so the investment I make is getting other people on my team to participate.
Matty: Yeah. Or even just your calendar. Or if you’re the admin and you would connect the entire team together, once the calendar is there, everything is really, really working smooth from there. So it’s really nice.
Andrew: Okay. Let me close us out with this one question. I understand now why you needed to sell, because you weren’t producing money from this, and you weren’t able to raise money. I was curious about why Doodle bought you, and you said, “You know what? I was kind of curious about that, too.” So you called the CFO of Doodle, the company that acquired you, and you said, “Why?”
Matty: The [inaudible 00:52:40]…yeah, yeah. I spoke to…
Andrew: You called them because of this pre-interview that we did. So what was the CFO’s answer?
Matty: So I spoke to Gabriele. He’s a CEO. Sorry, I wrote the F, but it’s the E.
Andrew: Ah, the CEO. Okay.
Matty: It’s the CEO. So he’s in Zurich in Switzerland. I told him, “Why…you know, I never ask you, why did you want to buy Doodle…why did you want to buy Meekan in the first place?” And he said, “Well, for us it was a no-brainer, because we thought, if you guys are going to succeed in what you’re doing, you’re going to eat our lunch and you’re going to make us obsolete. If what you’re doing is trying to work…is going to work, nobody is going to use Doodle anymore.”
Because Doodle was like, the opposite product from us. Doodle is like totally open-ended. You don’t even have to…you don’t have to sign up. You don’t even have to say your real name or your email or anything. You could use it to, you know, ask people what should we bring to the barbecue, not even, you know, schedule a meeting. You can use it as a small Excel spreadsheet, right? And for ours, is like the opposite. We ask for the calendar, and we want to know everything about you. So they’re like two complementing products.
And Meekan was doing all the work for you. I mean, Doodle, when you come into Doodle, you have to come up with four options that you want to send to someone, right? And sometimes, for myself, when I was using Doodle, I would say, “Oh, what offer should I [inaudible 00:54:03]? What…?” There was like, too many thinking. I would just abandon it. And Meekan is doing all this work for you. Just say, “I want to meet someone.” He says, “Okay, here are four options that you can send over [inaudible 00:54:12].”
Andrew: So they’re saying, “Look, there could be a world here where chat replaces apps, where artificial intelligence replaces people putting in the time to do it.” They wanted to buy Meekan so they could jump on that before it replaces them and they can invest in the future before the future comes and gets them.
All right, for anyone who wants to go try it, they could go check it out right now and Meekan.com. That’s Meekan.com. I also urge everyone who’s listening to me, if you hear any one of my guests say something that moved you, say something that helped you, let them know. And you can do it on Twitter, because now Matty’s on Twitter. Or frankly, if you’re in Israel or Tel Aviv, he is there. Find a way to see him at an event, and say, “Hey, I learned a lot from you, like the ‘Hooked’ process. I learned a lot from you, like how to come up with an idea or how to stick with an idea, and I want to say thank you.” I’ve found that that leads to incredible relationships with my guests.
I’m also going to close this out by saying thank you to my two sponsors. The first is the company that will host your website. It’s called HostGator.com/mixergy. And the second is the company where you can hire your next phenomenal developer. It’s called Toptal.
And finally, one of my listeners decided he wanted to do his own podcast, and he created something called…[inaudible 00:55:18], I don’t love the name. But I do like the guy, and I do like his…I like his approach.
He runs a site called Millionaire Interviews. I don’t like that he has…well, I don’t like that he has a hyphen in his URL, but it’s Millionaire-Interviews.com/podcast, if you want to hear interviews with other entrepreneurs. If you like this, I think you’re really going to like his podcast and his group of people. I also really like that he has…the images that he has of all of his guests. He puts a lot of work into this.
All right. So it’s Millionaire-Interviews.com/podcast, if you want to listen to one of my listeners who decided that he was going to do his own podcast. And it’s Meekan.com, if you want to check it out. Thank you so much for doing this interview.
Matty: Check it out. Thank you for having me. I really had a good time.
Andrew: Killer story. Thanks. Bye. Bye everyone.