Andrew: hey, they’re freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. And usually the interviews that I do are with people who create software companies. And it seems like the only way to succeed right now.
Right? You come up with an idea, whether you turn it into an app or a web app or whatever, it doesn’t matter, but you do that. And then it scales joining me is someone well. Nick Mako discovered that there are a lot of people who, who have photos who have VHS tapes and have other legacy digital products that want them digitized, turned into DVDs or turned into, uh, files that they could put on their computers.
And he built this company off of that idea. And frankly, I would’ve thought it would be a small business. I would have thought it would be the kind of thing that competes with the local copy. Shop front, Nick, I’m looking at your face. I say this. I don’t want to know how big your business would have gotten.
All right, Nick Mako is the founder of legacy box. I can’t believe how big the company has gotten. It’s an all-in-one mailed kit to preserve outdated. Tapes films, pictures, and audio recordings. I invited him here to figure it out how he did it and to learn from him. And we could do it. Thanks to two phenomenal companies.
The first, if you’re hosting a website or if you’ve got a new idea for a company and you need a website, go to hostgator.com/mixergy. And the second, when you’re ready to hire developers, you’ve got to try out top talent.com/mixergy, but I’ll tell you later why you need to do that first. Nick. Good to have you here.
Nick: thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Andrew: Hit me with the revenue. What can you say about it? Yeah.
Nick: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I agree with you. I don’t think we necessarily saw the scale potential of this company when we started. , so we started with modest goals in college, but, , yeah, it’s, it’s tremendous how much it’s grown. , so I don’t like to reveal the exact number of what, what our revenue is, but I guess I’d just say it’s between 40 and a hundred million in annual revenue.
And we continue to see heavy, you know, pretty healthy growth every single year.
Andrew: Tens of millions of dollars profitable business consistently. Right.
Andrew: And you and your co-founder own a hundred percent. There’s no outside investors there. Weren’t there was a little bit of outside equity, which you bought out and we’ll talk about that. Here’s the other thing I would also wear and I’ll find out why it did so well, but I’d also worry that it’s going to go away.
The people don’t have old legacy. Did, why are you making that face? Good. Tell me, reassure me. Where’s the future of this?
Nick: I mean, all of them, all the markets and he’s on this show that there’s just millions of these things rotting away in people’s addicts and shoe boxes across the country and across the world, frankly. , so when we look at it, , we see a long shelf life. I mean, most of the market studies say that this is going to quadruple in size.
, over the next decade. , and a lot of that sort of created by awareness. Like you just cannot even play these old formats anymore. , and so your awareness as a consumer just increases immediately when all of a sudden, you go to maybe relive that Christmas memory and you can’t, you just cannot play it.
, and so, so now, you know, you need to do something with it. , so yeah, I think obviously there’s a finite number of. Of analog formats in the world. , but that number is tremendous. And I think we’re just scratching the surface.
Andrew: Really growing as people go back, they start to see that the sold media is going to go away unless they digitize it. And so are, they’re going to feel a sense of urgency.
Nick: Yeah, exactly. And there is a sense of urgency if they don’t do something about it, you know, they may, they may lose it.
Andrew: Because even DVDs or CDs will, will expire. Right? I’ve had, I’ve had some that I kept forever. I thought I was doing the right thing, but they just stopped working.
Nick: Yeah, no, I mean, that’s true too. I think there’s also new formats that are getting created every day that people need help making those transitions with, that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s funny. If you think about the pains you went through. Or your, or your parents went through in meticulously caring for that photo album and making sure all the right photos were in it and it’s curated and it’s safe.
we don’t really have anything like that. even in the digital world, I feel like no one, I mean, Apple is trying, Facebook is trying, people are trying to create some tools to help you corral and organize all this digital media that’s being proliferated. But even then it’s not the same kind of care and curation that went in to an old Volvo.
So my point there is that, that there’s other transitions in other ways and services around even caring for new, new formats that are being created, that, we see opportunity.
Andrew: Are you doing that now?
Nick: there’s a few things that we’re looking at and
Andrew: Got it. I know exactly what you mean because I happened to have discovered an old hard drive of mine. When I was moving out of the office to work from home a COVID, I didn’t realize how much of a, of a treasure trove it was of old photos. I didn’t realize how long Olivia and I were together until I found them.
But there’s no sense in any of it. All I’m doing is moving it off the old hard drive into a cloud folder that is either labeled family or work. And sometimes things get a little mixed up, but there’s no sense within it. And you’re right. When my parents had photo albums, it was always this stage of your life or this event.
And it made sense. Art is just. Randomly just going in and looking, the reason that you came up with this was it was you and a buddy of yours. And the thing that you had was this constant entrepreneurial creativity. And you also told our producer, I had my head in the clouds all the time. What did you mean by, as a kid had my head in the clouds creatively.
Nick: I come from a family of entrepreneurs, small business entrepreneurs, I’d say so like, you know, my family owned, , my grandfather started a hardware store and then he started, you know, a chain of, of floor covering stores from that. Um, and so I was like the creative, black sheep of the family.
I mean, I liked music and I liked. art, I did terrible and all my other classes did great notes. , and I feel like I, one of the benefits that I had was that I had had, had a family and parents that sit that said, Hey, how can you focus some of that creativity towards enterprise, towards, towards things that are entrepreneurial.
And so I was always trying to cook up stuff. I was always trying, you know, I made comic books in elementary school and my own characters, but then I wouldn’t just stop there. I’d photocopy them. You know, staple them and fold them and make issues, and then I’d try to sell them to my classmates. so I mean, that’s the kind of stuff where I had my head in the clouds.
It was always trying to come up with an idea and then figure out if I could market that idea. I remember, trying to figure out a product that I could sell, and this was before actually the comic book. And so I just sat in my parents’ kitchen for awhile.
And I was like, thinking of, is there any raw materials around here in which I could make something new with? You know? And finally I was like, you know, I could mix Pepsi in orange juice and maybe that could taste good, you know? And so I’d mix these two things together and it tasted really weird. I’m sure it’s not good at all, but I thought that’s genius.
Nobody’s ever had something like this. And so what I did is I literally went and got all the plastic bottles from my parents’ recycling bin and I bottled. 20 of these things in plastic bottles, this concoction I printed, I made labels in Microsoft paint. So I made my own brand. I printed the labels, I cut them out and then I branded them and then I filled my whole backpack with them and sold them for a dollar.
And in front of my locker. I try to get my friends to buy it until the principal shut me down. She was like, you know, you need a, you need some kind of health, you know, certification. So, you know, I was, I was like, I was mortified as a kid. I’m like, I didn’t know, just trying to
Andrew: when I hear that, I hear the presence of shut me down. I get indignant in this case, it might’ve been for the better considering where the bottles were and what you’re putting in. But I would’ve liked
for her to have encouraged you.
You’re lucky Nick, that your family didn’t encourage you. You had this idea for a shoe.
What did your dad tell you to do.
Nick: I loved basketball and skateboarding, even though I was terrible at both of them. And, uh, and so I was like, you know, there could be a cool shoe. That would be a combination of an Airwalk and a basketball shoe. And so I sketched out the idea. And so I had this idea, my dad was like, you should try to sell that to Nike.
And I was like, What are you talking about? And so we literally went down and we had a gateway computer. So I don’t know if anyone remembers it came in the boxes with the iconic cow prints on them. But anyway, you have a gateway computer and we looked up, we had America online or something and found a directory of business.
, contacts it’s called Hoovers at the time. And you could find, you could find people’s numbers. So we found Phil Knight, the CEO of Nike’s number. And then as an elementary school student, I just kept cold calling him for like a whole week. , and I’d get like a different receptionist every time they were all politely told me that I couldn’t talk to Phil Knight.
and I never actually got through to him. but it was cool. Cause one day I went out to my mailbox and. I opened up and there was a craft Brown envelope with an orange Nike sushi in the quarter, and it was a letter and I opened it up and it was actually a letter from Phil Knight, um, or his office anyway, that said, you know, thanks so much for trying to send me these ideas, you know, unfortunately I can’t accept the idea of, but we’re so grateful that, you know, you attempted to reach out.
Andrew: That’s so cool. That’s the kind of thing that would make me feel like I’m not a viewer of this show. That’s called the world, but I can actively participate and step into it. If you can get into Phil Knight’s life and get a response, then maybe the next time, your idea could be better and you could get a better response and so on.
Nick: Yeah, no, that’s actually really important. It’s funny you say that. I I’ve never actually thought, thought about it that way, but it was empowering. It was empowering, even though I was turned down, I felt encouraged by it. And even the sense that I could actually speak to another, speak to the person themselves and hear from them.
I think I was really fortunate that I had family that would encourage me in those things.
Andrew: You eventually were building websites, the guy who became your co-founder was doing what.
Nick: Yeah. So my co-founder on same time. I mean, we’re both like 16, 17 years old at the time. Um, we knew of each other, but we weren’t really friends at that age. so he was doing video work. so he really loved, you know, videography and things like that. And he kind of discovered that his whole childhood.
VHS soccer games, everything we’re on these antiquated formats that you couldn’t really watch anymore. So he started doing that for friends and family to make some money. Um, simultaneously I was learning how to develop and make websites. I was learning flash. Actually. I had a, I had an early copy of Macromedia flash, and I was trying to teach myself how to, you know, animate and make a flash website.
So we’re both, we’re both working on those things.
Andrew: If flashes would make sites, it was a hassle in it because it took a while for the pages to load. And you’d often have to have some kind of interesting loading, uh, uh, display, , and there are other issues with them with it, but ultimately what you could create with it just looked amazing. I remember the first cartoon that a friend of mine created in flash, it felt like he must’ve taken it.
Uh, art lessons and also learned and had the patients to draw each cell. But no, it’s not that it was just telling the app, move the image from here to there and they moved fast. You can create head animation. Okay. So I
Nick: I, I remember, yeah. I remember being excited, animating a ball across the screen. That’s the first thing I didn’t flash, you know, it’s like, it moves one from here to there. So yeah, it was, it was neat for that. It was obviously the technology became irrelevant, but yes,
Andrew: So then how did you end up partnering up?
Nick: good. We went to the same college. Um, and funny, I was, I was a little older than him. Um, and so, uh, I was in a nicer dormitory. So when they, when he went to meet with the admissions people, they said, Hey, do you know anybody that goes to school here? And he first listed his friend and they said, well, no, he’s already, Pat’s already in, he’s got, he’s got roommates.
You don’t have anyone else. And so he tossed my name out there cause he thought, well, you know, if I say this other guy, maybe I’ll get in there and get in a better dorm. And so I have one open spot in my suite. It was like a suite of four, four of us. So anyway, they put us in the same suite and, um, and, and we just started to strike up a friendship, um,
Andrew: And he had the idea of digitizing old media. Right?
Andrew: said to him, I think we need a better website for it, or at what point did it become? We from you need a better website.
Nick: Well, first we just decided, you know what, next semester let’s live together, let’s get an off-campus house. And so they’ll get this real crummy off-campus house, like a block from our school. Um, and he started moving in all of his equipment to do this work for people. And he had a few jobs at the time too.
And it was just his way of making, spending money. Um, and so I started asking questions about it. I was like, what are you doing? Like, what is this thing? And so you explain the service. And then he showed me his website and it was pretty pitiful. I mean, he made it like Microsoft front page. He had like a scrolling marquee.
It had the flames. I mean, it was like, really, it was really bad. And so anyway, I was like, man, do you need help with this? Like, I’ve been doing all these websites. Here’s this client work that I’ve been doing. Like, I’d love to help. Um, and so that’s really the first way that we helped is I, I just started working on a better website for him.
Um, and, uh, uh, we went from there.
Andrew: And then when, when did you have the conversation that turned you guys into partners in the business? Okay.
Nick: Yeah. So I, you know, I think the conversation was like, you know, w so. Uh, Adam had gotten this early invite to, it was like a credit card offer that his parents got. It was like, here’s $50 to advertise on this new platform called Google ad words. And, and he was like, Hey, I got 50 bucks for Google ad words.
And so I remember it was like a test and it was like, okay. Let’s try these ads, they’ll show up in search listings and let’s see if we get sales from that. And, and we did, we put 50 bucks in the Google machine and we saw a a hundred bucks come back, which after you actually do all the work and ship it, and everything is not, you know, you’re not making a lot of money, but it was a start, you know, it was something.
And, um, and so I think, you know, the first. You know, we sort of, we’ve merged to a, we over a period of time, you know, it was like, Hey, you know, maybe we should try to advertise 50 bucks every day. You know, like let’s not do this for spending money. And just try to like, get a few orders here and there. But like, what happens if we leave the machine on.
You know, could, could we, could we get some consistent revenue? Um, and I remember that being very risky. I mean, I, I remember calling my dad. I was like, dad, we’re gonna spend 50 bucks a day on Google, but I think it’s going to work. We ran the math. He’s like, Nicholas, that’s crazy. You know, you don’t have 250 bucks.
So, you know, you don’t have. You know, whatever that is, uh, per week, you don’t have three 50 a week to spend on Google ads. You know, how are you going to come on for that? And I’m like, no, dad, I think the math works. Like we’ve looked at it. Um, and we did that’s. I mean, that was how we slowly grew the company just through college was like, Hey, 50 bucks works, does a hundred bucks work.
Um, and each one was a big risk because we don’t have outside money. We’re literally spending the money that we’re creating. In order to grow this revenue channel is completely bootstrapped. And so, um, the margin for error is very low. Um, so we really had to like hone our ability. And so that’s when we really started working together a lot, because a lot of that dependent on the performance of the website.
So we’re going to, well, we’re put all this money and how do we improve our sales pitch on the website so that this money works better for us. And that’s really the first back and forth between me and Adam on growing.
Andrew: Was the site called Southtree right from the beginning.
Nick: No, it wasn’t, it was, it was Adams, it was Adam’s initials. So it was, uh, AMB video transfer, which is awful. Uh, and actually you can find a cached version of it in the way machine, uh, that like saves old websites,
Andrew: I gotta find it. What is it called? AMV,
Nick: a M B, which is Adam’s initials a. M as in Mike, B as in, uh, base logger
Andrew: video a and B
Nick: fit, video transfer, or then when you had like media and then eventually, uh, we thought, well, this, this is a really silly brand.
Um, and so we came up with,
Andrew: How’d you come up with self tree.
Nick: so what we needed a cheap website domain, that was the first criteria we wanted it to be. Um, Broad cause we didn’t want to be pigeonholed into just converting VHS tapes to DVDs. Um, and, and we saw this trend where brands were taking like two random words and shoving it together and buying that domain name.
And so we just made a list of two word phrases that were like, that kind of sounds okay. How much is the website? And, and so we phoned so three and it was not expensive to buy and that’s, that’s how we bought it.
Andrew: Right. I remember that there were sites that would just take any two words that you’d give them or collection words and the smash them together and tell you what domains were available. Um, I think self-treating makes a lot of sense, by the way. I’m looking at the earlier version of the site. Here it is $9 95 cents per hour video transferred to DVD exclamation point.
There are a lot of exclamation points at the time. Um, the site. It also says a Christ honoring long distance alternative. Oh no, no. That’s an add on the bottom for $4 for 4.90 cents a minute long distance service, I
Nick: I don’t
Andrew: he was reselling at the time.
Nick: That’s was he doing AdSense? Is that what that was like? Do you remember
Andrew: or not, but I, I actually, I remember that at the time there’d be these random phone companies that you could promote and they they’d paid well.
Nick: Look, we’re
Andrew: me take a moment. I’m gonna take a moment. Talk about my first sponsor and then come back into this. My first sponsor is a company called HostGator. I got to tell you. One thing that I’m getting from you is business. Doesn’t have to be as intentional as I sometimes make it out to be.
It could just be a fun, creative experience. Let’s just try this. Let’s try that. Let’s see what sticks. Let’s see. What’s exciting us. And then we go from there, which is one of the things that I love about HostGator. They’ve got this really inexpensive package that allows people to have unlimited domains hosted.
Wake up in the morning, you have an idea. Yes. You do have to buy the domain though, whatever.com or, but then they’ll host it for you for free. And if you want to do it under a sub domain, the way I did with, uh, Andrew Warner, I would create like blog dot Andrew warner.com, podcast and Warner selling cars dot Andrew, wonder.com.
I don’t know what it was, but it was a bunch of anyway, they’ll host it all for you for free. So you can be expressive. You can be creative, you can try things out and yes, you can even kill them and move on. If you want to start out. I think there’s no better way than to just actually start. And if you go to HostGator, they make it inexpensive.
So you don’t have to spend a lot of money. They make it quick. I remember for me, it took about. Four minutes with my kids screaming in the background. I just tested it recently and it just works. Go to hostgator.com/mixergy. Yes, they will make it easy for you. Yes, they will make it. Uh, they’ll give you the lowest price if you use that URL and they will even give you ad credit so you can buy ads for free the way the Nick did.
So all you have to do go to hostgator.com/mixergy. Was there another idea that you guys were kicking around that you thought would be a better idea than what became legacy box?
Nick: No. I mean, we always had, we always had like different dreams in our head. Um, but there were always these like great opportunities to keep pursuing within, within the lane that we were in. And so I think, um, I think we felt like we should, we owed it to explore like the opportunities that were being presented to us.
Andrew: Like, what, what was one of the ideas that stuck in your head and for a while you were thinking that would be bigger. I should do that.
Nick: Yeah, we have really goofy runs around like logistics and shipping and stuff that still even come up to this day.
Andrew: Cause you have such a logistics
Nick: Well, we do, we do, and Adam kind of loves it. He read this book called the history of shipping containers. Um, so he just, he loves the topic. Um, and, and, um, and yeah, we have a lot of deep experience with it.
Cause we obviously ship thousands and thousands of packages every day. And then we’re also processing through thousands of packages a day. So we’ve learned a lot about logistics in the process of this. Um, but some of these ideas happen long, long time ago and it just kind of been. Incubated for forever.
Um, yeah, so yeah, we’ve, we’ve had other things that we thought of throughout that time, but, um, th the opportunities that were in front of us were always more compelling. And so we just kept making those next steps.
Andrew: Considering Adam’s love for shipping and all the things that you were doing at the company. Why is it that the last thing that you let go of was customer service. I’m imagining you still answering that 800 phone number that you had. I’m imagining you answering email. Why is it that that’s not something you said let’s find somebody else to deal with it.
Nick: Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, you know, we read this book early on that encouraged you to like write all the hats that you wear as a founder. And, you know, you’re wearing all these different hats, these different roles. And then as the business grows, you can start handing those hats off. Like you’ve already thought about them and articulated them.
And so, you know, at first the things that we delegated were the things that we just really didn’t, we didn’t like doing. Um, so, you know, it was like, it was like shipping a box, you know, um, it was, you know, it was, it was those kinds of things. Um, we hire our buddies for that. I think what we learned early on though with customer service was that was our lifeline.
That was our direct connection, um, to. To the, to the judge of whether or not we were doing a good job. And we learned so much by listening to them, um, that we hesitated to create that distance between us and the customer. Um, because that felt risky. That felt like somewhere where we would get a disconnect and we will lose some of the insights that would, that were so valuable to us as we were kind of figuring out the model.
Andrew: And you didn’t even think that you could maybe systemize a way for whoever answered customer service to tell you what was going on to create a spreadsheet, email you bullet points. No.
Nick: No, because, because a lot of times it was our judgment, right? It wasn’t exactly what the customer was telling us, but it was by listening to them, it would reveal the opportunity, you know? So let me give you a great example, like, like for the longest time. So we converted everything to DVDs at the time that was the technology and we had this machine, it was called a duplicator.
So it would make, you know, make all these other DVDs. Well, We had it listed on the site, DVD duplicates, you know, four 99 get a duplicate. And we thought, of course you want to duplicate, you’ll give one to grandma and you’ll give one to your uncle Bob or whatever, but nobody bought them. Nobody was buying two buckets at all.
It’s brilliant. It’s so weird. I don’t get why nobody buys these at one day. We’re on a phone with a customer and they say, Hey, I’m on the checkout. I’m about to buy, but like where do I buy extra copies? I can’t buy any extra copies. Gosh. We’ve missed it. We’re communicating to them in this technical language of what the machine is.
It’s a DVD duplicator, but nobody knows what that means. They would refer to it as extra copies. And so what we did is I immediately like probably that minute went and changed all the copy on the entire site to extra copies and we quadrupled the number of extra copies we sold. Instantly like literally the next day, all this new revenues coming in, because we just were not communicating properly to our customers.
Andrew: Wow. All right. That nails it for me. I get it. What was the book that made you understand your different jobs? His hats. I want to get those books too
Nick: yeah. Yeah. The book was called E-Myth. Um, so
Andrew: through visited, I think.
Nick: yeah, it’s, it’s a really popular one. Um, and, and that was such an important thing for us to articulate all those roles, because I think, you know, as you’re, as you’re doing everything, you, you don’t really distinguish when you’re moving between those roles.
Um, and so it helps you to actually clearly articulate, okay, I’m doing this piece of the job now. Um, and then it really did help tee it up for when we were ready to delegate, because at each stage now you have new requirements made of you as a, as a. Leader. Right. And you need to free up your time in some way.
And so it’s nice to go. All right. I already know what, what I’m going to do. I’m going to delegate this piece, this piece, and this piece of what I have been doing. And now I have more time to do these other things.
Andrew: I remember Noah Kagan, a friend of mine who now runs a sumo.com and AppSumo he said, Andrew, you’re not noticing all the things that you do. I want you to have a note pad open on one of your computer monitors for the week and just write out what you do as you do it. It was really enlightening. There were little things that I did in between interviews to prepare for interviews afterwards, dealing with customers, dealing with the stupid service that we used to have for processing credit cards.
And I didn’t notice it because it’s just one of those things you do.
Andrew: then of course you realize, well, I spent a lot of time with a credit card processing combination switch. Yeah.
Nick: I think you mentioned. How you don’t necessarily need to be as intentional. Like you could just have, you could just have a business grow out of some of these creative processes. The only thing I will say, we, we were intentional in a couple of ways. Um, and, and I do think that’s what created the difference between it being a little cottage niche kind of industry versus what it is today.
Uh, one of the things was that we really did want to do things that we thought had scale or had potential to scale. So like, Advertising on Google was fun and exciting because if we figured it out, we could hit everybody in the country. Uh, we never want to do, you know, Start advertising in our little college town.
I mean, we, we just, it wasn’t interesting to us. So I think we were enterprising in that way automatically. Like we wanted things that could scale. That’s what we wanted to spend our time on it. Cause it was fun. Like if we could figure that out, it could have a massive impact. So that was one piece of it that I think were really important.
The other one that I, I, I feel like was a really key moment is when we’re staring, we had a PayPal shopping cart when we first started. And I remember staring at our PayPal balance after we had advertised on Google and maybe it had like a hundred or $200 in there and we’re trying to decide, well, what do we do?
Do I give, do you get a hundred bucks? And I can get a hundred bucks? Like, what are we going to do with this money? And I remember like, no, we should really do what’s in the best interest of this company, we should think of the company as separate from us. And let’s do whatever’s in the best interest of that company.
And that should be obvious. Like whatever’s the greatest need of the company we could argue over, but we’ll have an answer and it’s not about what I want. It’s not about what you want Adam. And eventually if we do that, if we nurture this thing, we’ll benefit from it and our team will benefit from it and so on.
And that was a really key moment. And it’s funny because it’s. It seems so logical now, but like when it’s just two kids and you’re just getting some spending money, like there was no separate thing to nurture. Like it, it’s funny that we had, I don’t know why we have that wherewithal to be honest, but I do think those two keys.
Like doing what’s in the best interest of the, this struggling little enterprise and doing things that could scale were probably the big key hallmarks, um, that, that led us to a point where we are.
Andrew: And that would mean that if Adam needed extra money that month in order to keep going, it doesn’t matter what your percentage split is. Adam gets all the money if that’s what it takes to because having him live for the week. Well,
Nick: Sure. Or, or, um, I mean, at the time we both worked separate jobs, to be honest. And so that wasn’t, so we could separate out our personal, um, our personal needs for the first few years. And we didn’t have a lot of personal needs because we’re college students. Um, but, but, um, so, but yeah, I mean, it was, I’ll give you another example.
Like we worked in a garage, uh, we are in Tennessee, it had no air conditioning. So unlike sitting in that garage, sweating every, every summer. Um, and it would be nice to go buy one of those like portable air conditioning machines and like cool the place down for myself. But, you know, if, if it was a choice between having the comfort of air conditioning in the garage and, um, having enough money to try to spend on this new Google ad test that would create more revenue.
Well, I’m going to go for the Google ad test and I guess I can deal with it being hot.
Andrew: You know, the other thing I would think about getting started, the way that you did is you’re, you’re handling people’s most precious. Assets. Like, I think about my, we were robbed. We live in San Francisco. It was bound to happen just two days ago. We were robbed. Just so frustrates me. The thing that they took are the two bikes that I love.
Yes. I could buy better bikes, but I love those bikes, that history for me. And so on. But if I lost photos, I would be devastated at the bikes. I’ve just put it out of my mind. And I know at some point I’ve got to do to get better bikes. I would so worry about somebody sending me their stuff in a box, knowing they have no backup.
What if it doesn’t arrive to me? What if, when I ship it, well, what’s robbing to you, I guess is the big issue, but maybe when you take care of it in the garage, it’s too hot. Something had happened to it. How’d you deal with that?
Nick: Yeah, I think that’s something we took really seriously. And it’s one of the reasons that we kept our, our, our line directly to customers. Um, and so we, we felt that, um, that responsibility directly, um, and that’s really where a lot of our innovations came from. I mean, that’s where we changed how the service would work.
Um, I mean, one of the reasons we created legacy box was so that you would have. This engineered box that was safe and secure that we created. And then we partnered with ups stores. So you could drop them off directly at the stores. It’s actually a lot less legs as it goes from a ups store directly to their sorting facility.
And we actually, we have our own bin. Think about this. We have our own bin in the ups facility here. Uh, just like Amazon does, uh, because, because of the total quantity and they’re, so they’re handled entirely separate from the rest of the flow. Uh, but anyway, we just kept coming up with, um, ways that we could, um, prove the safety, security and trustworthiness of our company to customers.
Um, and yeah, so we’ve, we’ve, that has been a motto of ours for the entire time that we’ve been in business. Um, and listening to customers is greatly influenced, um, what we spend our time
Andrew: Did you ever lose anything from a customer? In the beginning.
Nick: Yeah, I think, I mean, I’m sure there was like packages that were misdirected and things like that. I mean, if there was any, if there was any, um, risk it’s it’s with those carriers, um, we do a great job once it was in our possession. Um, but we would do everything to track it down. I mean, we, we would go to the ends of the earth to actually figure out where that package might be.
Um, so. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s been a few misdirected in, in male, um, throughout the history, but ultimately like it’s incredibly safe and I would argue that it’s more safe to do this than what people are doing right now, which is leaving them to, you know, deteriorate in their garages.
Andrew: but if it deteriorates in their garage, they blame themselves. If it, if anything happens on the way they blame you, what was the name of the book that Adam liked? Is it the box? How the shipping container made the world smaller and the world economy bigger or
Nick: Maybe I thought it might’ve been that one. I thought it was like a history of shipping containers.
Andrew: of shipping containers. All right. I’ll look.
Nick: I’m not sure I can get
Andrew: searching everything that we’re talking about. And one of the things that I noticed is your earlier websites instructed people to go and get flashed so they could see the content on the site. And sure enough, um, at some point you got rid of flash and then sure enough.
Extra copies was part of the marketing going back to when you used to have a PDF order form that people could print and then tell you what they were looking for. And yes, on that PDF, there was a place for them to say, I want extra here. It is extra DVD. Copies is $4 and 95 cents each. And they have to fill out the form
Nick: Good moneymaker
Nick: would, people would fill out a form and write their credit card on it and send it to a college off-campus house, you know? And that’s what
Andrew: they thought that what the internet was so dangerous, we’re talking about, uh, let me see what year you had this 2009 and the internet was not dangerous at 2009. Not this one.
Nick: no, they, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, they have, we’ve had, we had customers that felt more comfortable printing that PDF form than placing the order through PayPal. No. No, of course it’s not true. We have a beautiful fight site and everybody pays online.
Andrew: No, there’s a, there’s an order form where I could write everything out and include my credit card information or enclose a check or money order and put it in the mail and
Nick: then we’d, and we’d go to one of those shredding services and shred all those. Cause we had, you
Andrew: Did you really, you didn’t do
Nick: hundreds of w now I don’t think we have
Andrew: of them.
Nick: I mean, there were hundreds of orders that would come in over months, period of time with people’s credit cards actually written right on them.
Andrew: Oh, the risk involved in that. Uh, that’s the kind of thing that would keep me up nights. Other things don’t bother me nearly as much. I just don’t want to. I found a few like old 10 90 nines from people who I sent out to the company and I realized I don’t even want that. How do I completely get rid of that?
Andrew: don’t want that danger.
Nick: I think, you know, we didn’t, we didn’t have a lot to lose at that point. You know, your college kids, you don’t have a lot to your name. I had, I had student loans and the 99 Jeep, you know, and I was just shocked that people would send us their shoe box full of stuff and pay us to do it.
Um, so I mean, I actually remember when we got something in the mail from the state of Tennessee, it was like, congratulations on your home business. As a reminder, here’s the 10 rules for operating home business. And I remember we looked at it and we’re like, Oh crap, we don’t follow five of these 10 rules.
We had no idea. We were so ignorant, uh, that, you know, now when things were, when we were made aware of things, we would immediately change them. But, um, there was a little bit of ignorance there being a college student doing it.
Andrew: I want to find out about the new name of the company and then what happened for COVID and how you had to cut back at some point. But first I’ll tell everyone. My second sponsor is a company called top talent, hiring developers. Nick, do you hire developers? Do you have any tips for people about how to hire developers?
Nick: Ooh. That’s a hard question. I wasn’t ready for that one. Yes, we do have a development team. Um, no, I don’t have good. I don’t have good tips on hiring developers.
Andrew: You know, why don’t we talk about within this is an ad for top tile, but you had this one developer who worked with Shopify. What did you need done?
Nick: Yeah, no, that’s a great. That’s a great story. Uh, one of my, one of our roommates in college, um, was a self-taught developer and he started doing e-commerce stores for people right away and noticed that, um, Shopify, which was new at the time did not have a mobile app. And so he developed the first mobile app for Shopify and
Andrew: For Shopify owners to update their site. Yep.
Nick: correct. Yeah. So it was for Shopify owners to basically administer, run their store. Um, and, um, and then they acquired it. They actually acquired his app and hired him. And he worked there, um, in some of their earlier years. Um, but yeah, I mean, right away, we talked to them and were like, Hey, do you think you could take this e-commerce backbone that you’ve created for these other brands?
And, um, and if you change it in these three or four ways, that would actually really help serve what we’re doing. Um, and I think we only pay them. Like, I don’t know, it’s like maybe 2,500 bucks. I mean, maybe, um, so he’s incredibly generous and he’s like, sure, I’ll do that. I’ll change these things for you and give you, you know, my platform.
And it made a huge difference. I mean, we saw revenues just go through the roof. Uh, the moment we had this nice e-commerce, uh, store, uh, we got off of PayPal, we had a really smooth checkout. And then we actually had the bones, the initial bones for what would be our logistics piece of like how we actually manage orders once we get an,
Andrew: Because Shopify is all about orders that are one way somebody pays you, you ship here, they pay you, they have to then ship you something. Right. And then the order is fine. And then the orders,
Nick: Correct. Yeah.
Andrew: causes what kind of issues.
Nick: yeah. Well, in, in the early days on PayPal, that was where it caused a lot of issues because PayPal would sit there looking for a tracking number. They’d be like, where’s the tracking them for the product. And we didn’t have one for months because people were packing up their stuff, sending it to us, then we do our thing and then send it back.
Um, and so they would freeze our account every once in a while. They’d be like, Hey, until you upload some tracking numbers, uh, you don’t get access to any of these funds. And then we kind of panicked for a while, um, and figure out a way to, uh, essentially give them a tracking number so that
Andrew: how’d you do it? How’d you figure out a way to give them a quick tracking number.
Nick: We would generate the label for the customer before it, you know, before it was finished, upload it to PayPal and say, here here’s the tracking information they made freeze it. And then when we were done processing it, that’s the exact label that we’d use. So we’re kind of, we were manipulating PayPal in
Andrew: Did your friend help you set this whole thing up or was it you guys internally doing it?
Nick: so friends was to get away from PayPal and our own system.
Andrew: it. He allowed you to use Shopify before Shopify was fully ready for a company, your size to use them.
Nick: Yeah, it was, yeah, it’s a little more complicated. He was, he created an e-commerce, it was actually just a proprietary e-commerce backbone that was used, like other, you know, um, but the same kind of, he used the same kind of code that he used for Shopify that he sold, that he sold to them. So we didn’t actually have a Shopify store.
Um, when he gave us all that, when he, when he wrote that for us. But, um, but now, now we are on
Andrew: We’ll find out. All right, all this, the safe coming back to top tile is when you find the right developer, they could work wonders. If you’re out there listening to me, and you’ve been dealing with a challenge that you’ve been wanting to hire somebody to take on, or maybe your team doesn’t have enough time to do it, but you think at some point in the future, they can go to top town.
They will find this. Ideal developer for you. They’ll introduce you to one or two people that they think are the right fit often. It’s just one. And if you decide to hire them, you can often get started right away. I’ve had people who I’ve interviewed, who hired from top town and use those top 10 developers for years and years and years and years, because it’s such a good match.
So first thing you should do is go to top tau.com/mixergy. The second thing that you’ll do is get a button which will set you up for a phone call with someone to top-down. And then if you liked the process and you want to hire from them, you can finally, if you decide to hire from them because you use my URL, which I’ll repeat in the moment, they will give you 80 hours of developer credit.
When you pay for your first 80 hours and have a, to a no risk trial period. All you have to do is go to top isn’t top of your head talent, talent that’s T O P T a l.com/m I N E R G Y. Top towel.com/mixergy. And forget it. Of course it will be in the show notes on the site. Hey. I keep looking at the old version of the site and I see the changes now.
I can’t help it. I love how it’s like, there’s a big thing on it for a while that says established 2001, right. Um, 2008 hits afterwards, a big recession. How do you guys deal with that? What happened to your business?
Nick: Yeah. I mean, it’s kinda crazy. Uh, so 2008, um, you know, we saw our sales cut in half, uh, the moments, the moment those market markets crashed. Um, and so, um, and by sales cut in half, I mean, I don’t know, maybe we were, I don’t know what we were doing in revenue is probably maybe a hundred thousand dollars a year or something, as you know, which was a lot as a college kid.
Um, Uh, so we, we just saw everything stopped working and, um, um, so we really had this make or break moment, like, do we try to revive this thing or is this it. You know, was this a fun ride? And I guess this isn’t going to work because all the math now on our marketing channel doesn’t work, you know, and, uh, we don’t have any deep pockets or investors that are gonna help float us through this time.
Uh, so we actually went to, I think this is funny cause we, we obviously knew it was serious. So we went to a conference room in the basement of the library at our school, which is funny. Cause it’s just the two of us. Like we could have met anywhere, but we were like,
Andrew: you pick that?
Nick: Uh, it had like a white board and it had like, it was quiet.
It had a whiteboard, we could run through numbers and like, we just, we felt like it was serious. Um, and so we kind of went through different scenarios and what we landed on, we didn’t have any the language for this at the time. Cause like, you know, neither of us had accounting experience. We wouldn’t have been able to read financial packages.
So we didn’t really know what we were saying, but we were getting a napkin math, basically. Our bet was. What if we doubled our Google ads right now, and if we double our Google ads, they’re obviously not going to be as effective because we’re, we just hit this recession. Um, but maybe we’ll do enough in revenue to cover our fixed expenses and survive.
And, and we didn’t have the, I don’t know how we would have described it then, you know, I think we were just like, look, if we spend twice as much, and here’s what we think could happen. That equals this amount of money that, that keeps us afloat. Um, so we made that bet. So we actually went, we said, yup, that’s what we’re going to do.
We, we can’t
Andrew: Our ad spend
Nick: we’re going to double our ad spend, which is kind of nuts like that. That seems silly. Like the market’s crashing, we’re hitting a recession, you’re going to spend more money. Um, so, so we did, we double our ad budget. And it was hard for the first few weeks because we were pushing money. I mean, we didn’t have a lot in reserves if we had a few thousand dollars in our business savings, that would have been a lot.
So we’re, we’re pushing all that in to sorta like gin up our Google flats and general revenue. Um, but we started to see that, that math actually worked out that we, that we, um, sold more sold enough that we cover our fixed expenses and we could ride it through. And then as the market picked up, We actually saw the growth from doubling our ed budget too.
So it took like three or four months, but as after we rolled that out, we covered our fixed expenses. And then as the, as the world economy kept improving, uh, we saw the actual returns that we needed on that
Andrew: because the ads were becoming more effective because people suddenly had more money to spend on things like digitizing their old photos. Got it.
Andrew: All right. South tree. Um, you, you still own the domain. It’s kind of interesting because when I even Google phrases that I imagine you guys are buying on, um, uh, Google ads for, I see you competing against each other and ads, because you still have both domains.
You can buy ads for both domains, but Southtree now is the company name ha uh, excuse me, legacy box. How’d you come up with legacy box.
Nick: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, I mean, we were about four or five years into the business and we had this just discussion. We were thinking, well, if we’re going to relaunch the business today, what would we do differently? You know, what about the customer experience is still not great. Um, what could really make this experience stand out from what else is out there?
Um, where people would look at it and just go, yes, that’s the obvious choice. Of course, I’m going to go with legacy box. They’ve thought of everything. It looks great. Um, and so we went on this journey to, to outline what that experience would look like. Um, and one of those things was brand, you know, we’re like, well, let’s have a brand, let’s have a name that actually speaks to the value of what we’re doing.
Um, and we’re kind of fortunate that we jumped on box. Cause like, there’s, there’s a huge trend of boxes now. Um, but we were, we were sort of ahead of that curve.
Andrew: You mean the box what’s what’s the trend with
Nick: yeah. Well, I just mean e-commerce, you can get everything in a box, you know, there’s like Birchbox and you know, you know, all the, all the boxes, bark box, um, But anyway, um, so one of the things was brand, the other one was like the actual packaging.
We’re like, look, let’s actually send them a kit right away. In a box and let’s take care of all the shipping. I mean, this is a headache for people. Not people don’t like shipping from their house. They don’t have all the stuff they need to package and send it in. Um, let’s take care of the shipping label.
People don’t know where to go. I mean, we saw people that would go to the post office and spend $40 to ship this box to us. And we knew we could save them money that way. Like that was a silly way to ship it. Um, but they didn’t know. They just thought, well, I gotta, I gotta send it. So I’m going to go to the post office.
So like it just, we just thought of every touch point. Um, and we relaunched it, um, or we launched the brand, I should say. And, um, and you know, it just, it changed the whole business dynamic because all of a
Andrew: To get to this before we get into how, how it changed. Look it out, fricking beautiful. This is look at this. This is. The first version of the site, right?
Andrew: Look at you, you’re capitalizing on the fact that you’re taking old media, which has this sense of antique and beauty to it right in your design. And then you’re showing us the box.
Look at this. This is not just a box like you might get from Amazon, but a box with a handle. This is the box you use to send out to people. Which makes it feel like whatever’s in there is even more special right than a regular, but you’re going to send them a regular box. Right. They just has this feeling of this is old time leg, all time.
Antiques, our stuff is as revered as your stuff, the box you put it in is how did you come up with that? This was, I see something evolution in your design, but this isn’t you guys internally coming up with this, right. Would you hire an agency?
Nick: No, not at all. Um, that’s all us, that’s all, actually, it’s all us. And we had no design team at the time, so it was just me and Adam, frankly. Um, uh, and, um, and so, uh, I did work with a photographer that I knew really well, that helped make that photography that you just showed. Um, but I was on that shoot, you know, placing all the PR all the pieces of that.
Um, Yeah, I think that was part of it. Right. So if you talked about trust, you know, early and people trusting you and we thought, well, we have got to convey in all these touch points, the detail and the concern. And like, if we, if we go over and above, this was the goal, actually I’ll take it back to talking to customers again.
In the earliest days, the question we kept getting from people is who are you guys? Are you trustworthy? Where am I sending my stuff? And we thought, how do we avoid that question altogether? How do we look so great. How do we convey a level of thoughtfulness that completely avoids that question altogether?
And I think that was one of the objectives in the brand and in the way that we presented the service in legacy box, it’s why we put a handle on there. Like it’s, it’s something that you care about. And so it should have details like that. And if we’re detailed in all these other ways, certainly, um, uh, they’ll trust us that we’re detailed with all the, all the ways they don’t see.
Um, so yeah, that was part of the objective. When we, um, when we set out to create the brand.
Andrew: Was, but so you were starting to say that it helped grow your sales. How did it help to grow your sales? To have the design the way it
Nick: well, it’s changed. The business changed all the math, right? It was so much more, uh, it was so much more, um, Uh, sticky of an idea in the mind, the minds of a consumer, um, they just, they needed to buy that box. Like it’s sold a lot better. Um, the, the average tickets that we were getting from customers, all of a sudden were just much, much better.
Um, and so, um, it changed, uh, it just changed all the unit economics of our business. And now all of a sudden we can grow and advertise and all new, different ways.
Andrew: I totally get what you’re talking. I’m going to mention one of your competitors, because I guess they bought an ad that out that outranked, you scan my photos. It doesn’t, it just looks like I’m going back 10 years on the internet. Even if I hit their live chat. It almost, I could have sworn that it said install a flash, but it doesn’t. It says provider support. I don’t know. It’s really weird that you’re going back and you’re seeing an old Google plus account link, which Google plus is not alive anymore. It’s actually a dead link to Google. Plus it says a four Oh four error on Google. I get why I would trust this design so much more.
I’m surprised that it’s so measurable for you. All right. And it was, it was a.
Nick: I think one of the things we learned too early on was that our customers didn’t care about technology. You know, like they, they cared about preserving their one of a kind. Home movies, pictures, film, and they’re leaving it to us to figure out all the tech technical stuff around it. And so that was the other piece of it.
We need to communicate to them in the value that’s important to them. And I do think that’s still to this day, a way that we look instinct wish ourselves from this, from our competitors that are speaking in this sort of technical jargon to people. When you know, and it’s not
Andrew: jargon. A lot of them are actually talking in SEO jargon, so you can see a lot of like bad links to things on the site that it’s just all right. Um, 2020 you’re doing okay. Then suddenly March 20, 20 hits people are in lockdown. I wouldn’t have thought it would affect your business.
What happened to your business? And how’d you deal with it?
Nick: sure. Um, you know, so yeah, another, and it’s like another 2008 all over again. It actually felt very familiar to me and Adam. Um, and we’re both kind of runners now. And, uh, and so we like that’s, I think that’s where we work out the biggest business challenges. We’re just, we go on a run and chew on things.
Well, so COVID happens. Lockdowns start occurring, school cancellations start happening. And we saw another situation where our sales just instantly, uh, dove. Um, and they dove by, I don’t know. I think it was good 50%.
Andrew: 50% of your sales down.
Nick: yeah, and, and, and again, like we are. You know, now, now of course we’re doing well. And we have, you know, we have, we’re in a really great position financially as a company.
And so we can weather storms, but it’s still not an atomized DNA to bleed 50% for very long. Um, and it’s not, it’s not very sustainable for any business, no matter how great you are. Um, so, um, so yeah, this was another one of those situations where we go, okay, well, what are we going to do? And so, um, you know, first plan was, how do you scale back?
You know, what’s the, what’s the bad plan, which is how do you scale the company back? And so we just met up at Adam’s house late in the evening, and we’re just like drinking whiskey and looking at numbers and figuring out how we would actually shrink the business in a way that would be okay. And that’s not fun at all.
I mean, nobody wants to go through that.
Andrew: What kind of things were you shrinking?
Nick: Basically everything. We actually went back in time to an old P and L when we were half size that we are today. And we went through each account and we were like, okay, what was our budget for this category? What was our budget for this? And then we basically had to go through what cuts you’d make in order to get back to that size.
So it, I mean, it was everything, everything was on the table there, um, from
Andrew: of the hardest ones.
Nick: all, I
Andrew: cut back.
Nick: All the hardest ones that you would have to cut back would be people. Um, of course, but we never actually had to cut back. So we had that plan and it was sitting there and it was available. Um, and we thought, well, we don’t want to do this plan.
This plan would really suck. Um, so. What else could we do? And so we kind of thought again on our, on, we did a similar thing that we did in 2008. So we went to all of our advertising partners and we said, look, we’re not going to cut, spend with you. We’ll keep our commitment. And at this time you got to understand advertisers are dropping like flies.
I mean, they’re just dropping everywhere.
Andrew: Yeah, they stopped advertising. Ad rates started going down because nobody was doing it.
Nick: Yup, exactly. And so for us to come to our advertising partners and say, look, instead of cutting our ad, commitment to you, we would like you to give us, you know, two times the value for the money and that’ll make it work for us. And of course they have all this empty inventory, so they’re going all right, we’ll take it. We’ll take that deal. You know? And so that was one step that we did that instantly, improved our, our, uh, you know, ad spin.
Then the other thing we thought is, Oh my gosh, these ad rates on all this stuff that we’ve wanted to test are now a lot cheaper. Could we go and buy a bunch of these other things that were cost prohibited before. And sort of see if they work for us. Um, and so we did that as well. So not only did we stay on all the correct marketing channels, we were on, we actually tested some new ones too, because their ad rates were so cheap.
, and then of course , people got stimulus, uh, it was a little less scary. The Mark, you know, I mean our economy came back really quickly. And so, now we’re, I know our sales are up, you know, huge for the year. And if you, if you zoom way out and you don’t look at March, um, you would just go, wow, that’s a really good year of growth for you guys.
Andrew: I’m looking at w what advertisers would you have gone back to and said, we want more for our money. I’m guessing his group on one of them. I see. You’re still big with Groupon. You’re still using affiliates through Sheriff’s sale, right?
Nick: Sure. Yeah. I mean, we’re on tons of podcasts. We’re on, you know, offline radio and offline television. Um, and then, yeah, there’s a lot of digital ad, uh, partners as well. Facebook, I mean, we’re, we’re pretty much everywhere at this point.
Andrew: I could see that. Uh, yeah. YouTube. What else are you on? Um, obviously we’ve seen Google ads. You started doing ads on, on Ellen. Is Ellen working for you guys?
Nick: I don’t know. I actually don’t know. I haven’t followed up. We have a great woman who runs all of our TV, TV ad buys for us. We did try it, um, because obviously it’s a pretty expensive show normally.
Andrew: But now you’re able to do it because there’s more availability.
Nick: Right. So we did try it. I’m not sure what ended up happening with it, but, but, uh, I know, uh, you know, TV’s and another thing that’s grown for us throughout this year, so that, that might’ve been one of those tests that worked.
Andrew: What you, at some point now we’re taking some money off the table. What are you investing it in? Where are you putting your money?
Nick: Uh, you know, that’s that’s great question. Um, Nothing yet. I think, I mean, mostly just, I mean, mostly just securing it for our families. Um, so it’s, it’s in the stock market. I mean, it’s boring, it’s in stocks and bonds. Um, and there’s a little bit, so like there’s a few little things here and there that we’re, um, looking at.
So, you know, we’ll see. I mean, Adam and I like, I love, I love getting involved in businesses that already have some market validity and now they’re looking for growth. Um, and looking at ways to reach customers in new ways. So we might dive in and make some investments, um,
Andrew: Are you an investor in boost Topia, which introduced me to you.
Nick: No, no, we’re not. Um, but, uh, but those are great guys.
Andrew: You know them, they they told me about your company. I couldn’t believe it. If it’s not for them, I would never have believed how big your business
Nick: Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. Um, they, uh, they were connected. We connected through them through some, um, entrepreneurial circles in the Raleigh area. Um, and, uh, and they helped us a lot with some of our systems for customer support,
Andrew: Yeah, he told me, he
said you were his first customer. This is Justin.
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, they helped us with all kinds of things, help center desks and getting, you know, getting our support tickets systems in place.
Um, and, uh, I mean, now we have, you know, we have customer service team of 30 and we’re dealing with thousands of tickets every day.
Andrew: All right. The website is frankly, the website is whatever website you’re using right now, because if you’re on it, they’re probably advertising on it. So just look to the left, look to the right and you’ll see them. Um, but if you want to go directly, go to legacy box.com. Congratulations on what you’ve been able to do here.
This is phenomenal. Phenomenal. And, and, but beyond the size of the business, just to watch your business grow design-wise to look at what it looks like now is just to watch people put more and more care into their business instead of just milking it and saying, this is going to go away.
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we want to double down into that. I think, I mean, we’re not, uh, that’s sort of what drives us is to keep making, keep getting it back to be improving it. And that’s kind of where we drive energy. So it’s fun.
Andrew: Really what I’m about to show you. This is really your, your office space. This is not just clip art with your logo on it or socks. Come on. Yeah. That that’s
Nick: So that is our, that is our production facility. So that’s a couple of miles from where I’m working right here. So we have
Andrew: the boxes go.
Nick: you know, that’s where the boxes go and it’s a beautiful campus. That was a pretty, uh, that was a pretty, I mean, the care by the way, that you’re, that you’re talking about extends to, um, You know the details of our workspaces and the place that we were in, in our employees go to.
So if you could have seen the before picture of that facility, um, you can see, uh, how, how great it looks today.
Andrew: What’s the flash version of this beautiful facility. All right. I don’t know. I haven’t seen everything else. Develop. Uh, no. Alright. Legacy box.com. Thank you for doing this interview. And I want to thank the two sponsors who made this interview happen. If you’re out there and you’re trying to get a website built, or you’re trying to move your site to, to a less expensive, but fully functioning and dependable service, go to hostgator.com/mixergy.
And of course, if you’re hiring a developer, you know, by now go to top towel.com/mixergy. Thank you so much for doing this interview
Nick: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Andrew: by one.