Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. And actually, you know what? Kim, before I even go with the official intro…
Andrew: I was checking my inbox for your name just to see if we talked or when we talked or what we said and I realized that over a year ago, you emailed me and asked if there was a slot for you to come and do an interview on Mixergy. Do you remember my response?
Kim: I do. And that’s that I wasn’t big enough and I hadn’t done enough yet.
Andrew: Ah. How did you respond to that? Internally what did you feel?
Kim: I felt that I have to have a more persuasive email to you.
Andrew: I actually forwarded your email onto someone else who did the booking and that person must have gone through our criteria, done as much research as possible and said, “Hey, it doesn’t seem to fit.” I always feel bad telling people that. At the same time, I feel like I need to. I was surprised when you emailed me back and didn’t just say, “Hey, you know what, Andrew? You’re a jerk.” You emailed back, I think, about ten months later.
Kim: Yeah. You know what? I’m a huge fan and I love that you make people come around twice if you don’t go after them. It’s a selection process. It’s kind of like if I just get a resume sent to me with no good cover letter, I don’t want to hire that person. I want to show a little bit of drive. What’s the reason why? There was a reason why I didn’t go around the first time and it worked the second time and I think that’s fantastic.
Andrew: What do you think the reason is?
Kim: I was meant to tell a different story. I was meant to focus less on what I do and more on how I got here.
Andrew: I see. And before when you were emailing me you were talking a little bit more about what you do and today you’re realizing that the way to connect with people is to talk more about your story.
Andrew: Why do you think there’s a difference? Why do you think people don’t want to hear what we do? Do you think that’s universally true?
Kim: I’m not sure. People love hearing about what I do because they feel like it’s a sexy topic and it’s hot, and actually how I got here is not what people reach toward. You’re going to search a lot more for, “How do you make money with Facebook?” then you’re going to search for, “How do you deal with head trash?” right? I’m sure there are a lot more searches on item number one. But if I never dealt with the head trash, I wouldn’t be here. I would have bankrupt. I would have been done. It wouldn’t have happened.
So, I think the second message is so much more important because if you can’t get past what’s keeping you from being successful, you can never get success no matter what amazing marketing strategies you have.
Andrew: I just wrote down the phrase “head trash.” I’ve never heard it before. I want to talk to you about that later on. But you know what? You’re right. Yes, if you do a search for “help with Facebook advertising,” which is something that you do–and I’ll introduce you to the audience formally in a moment–but if you do a search for that, you get tons of responses and there are lots of people who are doing that search and hardly anyone is saying, “Give me an article about someone who dealt with head trash,” not very popular.
Andrew: But I’ll tell you, if you communicate your story, then you stand out among this group of tons of people who are all doing the same thing you do. And you know what? I use this app called Scribd to listen to audiobooks. And I love the app. I love the business. But I hated my interview with the founder of Scribd because all he did was promote the freaking app.
I wish he would have understood that if he would have told us more about his story, we would have connected with Scribd a little bit better. If he would have told us more about his head trash or his challenges, we would have cared more for Scribd and rooted more for Scribd and definitely seen Scribd as a company we like better than Audible, which is more of a behemoth. Not enough people recognize that.
I remember in my interview with him, not to make it too much about him, constantly coming back to saying, “All right, we got your pitch. We got your pitch. Now come back. Tell me how you got here because nobody cares about your pitch. People care about how they’re going to build their businesses and they want to learn from you whatever they can.”
Kim: Yeah. There’s this other side though. Let’s be real. It’s not really that brave to talk about the head trash once you’re past it. I don’t know that I could have talked about it. I would have been a little too raw. I was past it, but not past it enough. Maybe he juts was in a different mindset. Maybe he had to get sales that day.
Andrew: Maybe he was a little afraid of me.
Kim: Yeah. I mean, there are so many reasons why. So, I don’t want to say, “Oh, look how brave I am for doing this and how selfless,” because I can do it now and I don’t know that a few years ago I could have done that.
Andrew: All right. Let me introduce you. You are Kim Walsh-Phillips, the founder and CEO of IO Creative Group, which is a direct response social media marketing company. What that means is if somebody needs to buy ads on Facebook, for example, that actually will generate results not just do some branding, they can come to your company, the IO Creative Group and you will do I for them. That is the majority of what your business is. You also now, as a minority of your revenue, have a business where you teach people how to do this for themselves, right?
Kim: That’s right.
Andrew: Yeah. And I also should introduce myself. My name is Andrew. I’m the founder of Mixergy. And the reason I wanted to change things up a little bit is I’m realizing when I’m listening to a podcast, I don’t so much care about the people. I kind of know who the host is. I kind of don’t care yet about the guest. I just want them to talk to me and be interesting and then later one, once they’re interesting, I care about what their names are. I thought, “Let’s try to change things up.” And the sponsor I’ll also bring in a little bit later on. For now, I’ll just say it’s HostGator and I’ll write a note to myself to come back to it.
So, you know what, Kim? I usually have this format that I follow. I want to go in chronological order and understand how the business evolved. But once you said the phrase “head trash,” I’ve got to ask you–give me an example of head trash. I want to understand what it means to you.
Kim: Sure. And I don’t want to take credit for this. That term comes from Sandler Training, a sales training which I went through years ago. But it’s that stuff, the garbage that is in our mind that’s not actually logical thinking or even present thinking. It’s past stuff that may have happened.
Andrew: Give me example of head trash that held you back in the past.
Kim: I remember just a little example of being on a line waiting for my car and I had a boss standing in line in front of me and I had on these sunglasses that were pretty cool. I picked them up in Miami and they were designer. I loved them. I put them on and she said, “Oh, look at you. What do you think, you’re a movie star?” And then I thought, “Oh, here I am, something I love that made me stand out and my boss doesn’t like that. I have to put that back inside.” There are multiple times where I had–and that’s such a goofy little example–but just multiple times when I would stand out that I was…
Andrew: Give me another one, one that’s not so goofy and maybe is a little bit more damaging, a lot more damaging ideally.
Kim: Yeah. Sure. No problem. So, I went for a job and I wanted to be the executive director of an organization. I did not get along well with the president of the board. And he was basing his thought process on not actually having done the work and me being in the trenches. The response was I had tried to make too much of a voice for myself. So, I didn’t get the job. So, it was telling me again, “You’re voice isn’t welcome. That’s not something that we want to hear.” An even more damaging one…
Kim: I was struggling really hard in my company. We weren’t making money and I thought, “Okay. Well, I’m going to start taking out to lunch the really influential people in my life and just ask them is there one person that I could introduce you to or that you could introduce me to.” I was in a small town running my company. Three different times, the gentleman I was taking out to lunch told me that he wasn’t comfortable introducing me to anyone because none of them would want to work with a woman.
Andrew: Ah, wow.
Kim: And that’s not that long ago. It’s like ten years ago.
Andrew: That’s not head trash. It’s his trash.
Kim: Yeah, but it influences you. It makes you start to think, “It’s not this town that’s the problem. It’s me that’s the problem.”
Andrew: I see. And as a result, you don’t want to put yourself out there and invite more people to lunch and try this idea anymore if it means that people just aren’t going to work with a woman anyways. Is that what’s happening or am I reaching too much?
Kim: Right. There’s no way for me to succeed. Should I go get a job? Should I stop being out there so much?
Andrew: And did you hesitate to do stuff because he said no one would want to–
Kim: Oh yeah.
Andrew: You did.
Kim: 100 percent.
Andrew: What did you hesitate to do because this now got in your head?
Kim: Take leadership roles in organizations that I was involved in, go on the board. I would always be the committee person in my community, like volunteering. But I wouldn’t get into a leadership role. I felt like that was my role. I was the doer. I was the worker. I wasn’t supposed to get the credit and be out front. Now, almost saying it out loud seems so freaking ridiculous. Yet, it kept me from succeeding for a really, really long time.
Andrew: Yeah. I call that the counter mind because it counters everything we try to do. I have found that when I say what my counter mind is telling me, when I say it out loud, it takes away so much of its power. For me, the example of that is I remember getting a job in high school that I thought was a paid job. But the woman who I worked for just assumed it was free.
I didn’t have the guts to say, “Hey, this is part of the way my school works. They introduced me to you so I could get a paid job for you. You’re assuming it’s a free internship for some reason. It feels unfair.” The reason I didn’t say it out loud is because I was worried about her not hiring me because of it. I was worried that I am not really one of these Wall Street guys. I have none of the things going for me. I don’t even look good in a suit. For some reason, that stuck in my head.
So, I said, “I should just be grateful to have anything that they’re giving me because I don’t really fully fit in here.” And if I would have said that out loud, then the inner fighter would have just pounced on the job and pounced on her giving me more and paying me, actually. But I didn’t even notice it. Saying it out loud takes away a lot of its power.
You’re also like me, someone who is a hustler and ambitious from the time you were a kid. You told our producer this great story about the time that your parents had an anniversary and you couldn’t afford a gift for them. How old were you at the time, roughly?
Kim: I was eight.
Andrew: Eight years old. So, what did you do? You didn’t have money to pay for a gift for your parents at eight years old.
Kim: Well, I grew up on Long Island and you get money for redeeming, bringing back your canned goods or your bottles. So, I walked around our development day after day after day picking up really gross bottles and cleaning them and bringing them in to get change for them. At five cents apiece, I built it up to $80 for my parents’ anniversary dinner.
Andrew: And what did you get them? Oh, a dinner.
Kim: Dinner. Yeah. I just gave them the money to go out to dinner.
Andrew: Way to go. And so that’s the kind of person you are. You feel to me like an entrepreneur. You talk like an entrepreneur. You are an entrepreneur. And still, you ended up going to work for a pharmaceutical company instead of starting your own business. Why did you go to work there?
Kim: I didn’t understand entrepreneur. I really didn’t. That’s an incredibly scary concept to me. So, I thought I needed to go out and get more corporate experience. I had done an internship while in college. It was a very–again, this sounds like a crazy feminist person, maybe–but my job in college was in the corporate communications department. Every person that came in the office thought I was the secretary, every person. And it was just because I was in the office.
So, I wanted another corporate experience to see, “Okay, was it just the company?” And so I went to a corporate communications department where it was all women. Actually, I had a similar situation. I found out after a five-part interview process that it was a temporary position. But once I was working there, that was fine. But we were being told to say some things on the phone that I didn’t completely agree with. They weren’t legit and we were being told to lie. So, I left that position.
Andrew: Wait. What’s a lie that you were told to tell?
Kim: How we were charging people for medication. In cash pay communities, we were charging more than we were in communities where they were using insurance.
Andrew: That’s shocking. So, insurance companies are smarter and more able to negotiate and ferret out bad prices than people who are paying cash. So, you charged insurance companies less and you charge the cash paying people more. Wow. I see.
Kim: They were. We were told to create spin around it. I was uncomfortable doing that. So, without a job, I left that position. It was a good decision because shortly thereafter, having no idea this was going to happen, our CEO was indicted.
Andrew: Oh wow.
Kim: Yeah. So, that was a good move. That’s when I started getting the bug–and I had done little things on the side always. I had done side projects. I started a craft business. I did a paper route. I always worked extra stuff. But eventually, when someone came to me and asked me to do some consulting work, that was the win I needed to be able to go off on my own.
Andrew: It was that and there was also something else. Is that the job where you were working and you tried to get a promotion and they kept telling you you’re not connected enough?
Kim: Yeah. That was my last position I had before I started my company.
Andrew: That was it. They said you’re not connected enough to get to the next level up, so you actually started to build some connections, right?
Kim: Yeah. I started to go seek board positions and get onto committees. This has been my answer all my life, Andrew. You tell me that I didn’t do it. I don’t say, “Oh, screw you.” I say, “What could I have done better?” And I go and try to do that other thing. I’m going to say, though–and this was like my big thing–my answer was always, “Let me go and work harder. Let me go and do more.”
I always felt like, “Okay, I didn’t do well because I didn’t do enough,” and that’s just bull. At a certain point, you have to stop working. Maybe it’s not the right market. It may be the right media. It may be the right message. But it might just be the wrong market. I was just in the wrong market for way too freaking long.
So, while I feel really blessed that I became a better networker because I’m like crazy introvert, I because a better networker because of that. I don’t know. I’m not going to change anything. I’m not going to go back because I’m so happy with where I am. But if I had changed where I was right then, I would have been in a different place, I think.
Andrew: Was one of the reasons that you went to Sandler that you wanted to get a promotion at this job and you thought, “If I take some sales training from Sandler Training, then I’ll earn the next level up.”
Kim: I already had my business when I went to Sandler. I went to Sandler because I was creating proposals for lots of people who weren’t hiring us and I was chasing and I was doing a lot of unpaid consulting. So, I pretty much had all the pains that they look for in a good student. I have no financial incentive in saying it though, I think it’s an amazing training. We put all of our staff through it now. It was a game changer for me for sure.
Andrew: All right. I want to get into what they did in a little bit. But then the agency, I want to understand how you got into business for yourself. I see that there was a ceiling that you couldn’t crack. You were limited by what you could do even if you were told that you needed more connections and you’d got out there and get connections, apparently that wasn’t enough. And you didn’t feel comfortable about working for them.
But the idea for this business, the IO Creative Group, if I understand it right, did it have something to do with a client who you met at an event who said–actually, where did it come from? I’m about to tell your story.
Kim: In the job I had, there was just someone I had gotten to know and she came to me and she said, “I think you should own your own business and I want to be your first client.” It was amazing. Stuff like that has happened to me all along. These cool, amazing–it’s that preparation meets opportunity moment. I said, “Sure.”
She was like a $15 an hour, two hour a week person. So, it wasn’t like that’s what launched it. But that idea was launched with her. And then I started taking on clients part time, evenings, weekends. I would do them on my lunch break in my car. Cell phones were around finally. So, I would do work that way.
Andrew: What would you do for them?
Kim: I was doing a lot of PR work and event planning.
Andrew: So, the first client, this is the Downtown Revitalization Program?
Kim: That’s where I was working full time when I started my business.
Andrew: Oh, I see. Okay. So, what did you do for the first client? What kind of PR?
Kim: Get her name in the paper in order to promote her grand opening.
Andrew: I see.
Kim: It was really successful. It’s a tiny, tiny town. So, you send a press release and it gets put in almost word for word and they came out and covered it. I knew everybody in the community, so, I was able to get the place packed. From hard work, I was able to make it very successful.
Andrew: I see. This is 2001, roughly?
Andrew: Wow. So, the local newspaper must have had a lot of weight back then.
Kim: Yeah. It still does in that community, actually.
Andrew: Does it?
Kim: Yeah, for sure. It’s an older population, more traditional, more conservative. It does.
Andrew: All right. So, you kept going. I heard your boss didn’t know about it until you got into the paper.
Kim: Yeah. Actually, I was working at a healthcare group then for a hospital. The city, two years later, doing part time, our city that I was in, the mayor asked me to take on all the city’s special events as a consultant. So, that was enough to launch the company full time.
I agreed to do it. I went on vacation before I gave my notice at my job and the story came out on the front page of the paper while I was working the streets of San Francisco, actually. And I got a call from a friend that said, “Hey, you’re on the front page of the paper today.” And the next call I got was from my boss telling me I didn’t have to come in anymore.
Kim: Yes. I was paid though. It was awesome. She gave me four weeks’ pay and told me not come in. I got to launch my business with four weeks of pay. So, that was pretty cool.
Andrew: Why not? It doesn’t seem like there’s a conflict. It’s not like you’re working for competitive businesses.
Kim: She was the same one who didn’t like my sunglasses.
Andrew: I see. So, it was just one of these things where you’re being controlled and once there’s a little bit of loosening of the control, she just doesn’t want to do anything with you.
Andrew: Wow. Did you feel all alone at that point? Now you have to earn all the money on your own?
Kim: No. I wasn’t really too brave back then. The contract I got with the city was more than I was making with my job. So, when I left and went full time, I was fully funded, self-funded, but fully funded.
Andrew: Tell me more about how you got the contract with the city then if that really set you up.
Kim: I got to know the mayor really well. I started a young professional organization in our community. I didn’t know anyone and I was tired of seeing young people out at night and not knowing who they were. So, I thought if I started an organization for them, maybe they’ll join. Again, I’m an introvert, so, I won’t actually introduce myself to people, but I’ll start a group that maybe they’ll come to. I got to know the mayor that way. He knew I did events and started talking to me about taking on some contracts. So, that’s how that happened.
Andrew: It’s weird how being an introvert, sometimes it’s easier to setup your own events and get to know people that way than to go to events.
Kim: I know.
Andrew: That happened to me too. I used to organize events. It’s so much easier to talk to a stranger and say, “You know, I’m doing this event with these other people. You might want to join.” And no one hates you for inviting them to an event.
Kim: Maybe they do, but they don’t tell me.
Andrew: Maybe they do. But then if they come, you also don’t have to figure out what to say because everyone wants to meet the host.
Kim: Right, for sure.
Andrew: “I’ve got to go say hi to the host.”
Kim: It’s a perfect thing.
Andrew: So, you’ve got that first client, the first big one. How did you get the next big client.
Kim: Well, for the next ten to twelve years, it was through networking. I worked my fanny off. I went to ever chamber event, Rotary Club, volunteered for everything, went out, shook hands, reached out, worked incredible hard and just kept getting clients that way. It was all through relationship building.
Andrew: Do you have any tips about networking? I’ve gone to those kinds of events. Rotary Club especially I find to be a little too old in their system. Their process just feels really out of date.
Kim: Yeah. It’s an amazing world-changing organization, but I would not say it’s a great business development opportunity. So, if that’s what you’re doing it for, don’t do it.
Andrew: At least maybe in LA where I went. I went to that. I used to go to the Kiwanis Club. I just wanted to see how these older organizations survived for so long and what we could learn from them as online people. I did learn some. But I also felt so out of place there and I felt like they were really out of touch with what was going on in the broader LA community, not just that broader LA tech community.
Kim: Yeah. I don’t even know out of touch. I just think it’s a different world and maybe it doesn’t mesh. The one I was in, it was actually in the state and one of the largest in the country. They were amazing people. We had lots of doctors people who spent weeks a year going and helping people who didn’t have access to healthcare and they went through the Rotary Club. So, they’re doing awesome, awesome things.
Andrew: That’s the part I think that we can learn from online. We form these communities and I think we need to also, beyond just forming communities to help ourselves, we need to think how do we do something that helps someone outside of our community, someone who’s in bigger need. By doing that, the organizations like the Kiwanis especially would create a bond among those members. It’s a really big takeaway for me from those events. So, what did you do as a networker at these events that allowed you to get business?
Kim: I came up with how I would talk about my business. It would be about them, not about me. That came from my Sandler Training. That really helped me get them talking about their needs, what they do, all about them. And don’t make it all about yourself at all. And then when they asked me what is it that I do, I will have tried to pick up something that they were talking about that what I do relates back to.
So, I always tried to really focus on needs first, their needs, listen and then offer information. But I never went into a pitch or talked too much about myself because I tried to make the connection that way.
Andrew: So, if someone told you that they owned five clothing stores in town, how would you change your pitch for them?
Kim: I would ask them a question, “Oh, that’s amazing. What kind of clothes do you have? What kind of customer? Who’s your target market? Oh, that’s so cool. How do you guys get customers?” I would just start asking some questions. And then when they ask me–my general pitch now, it’s much more refined, is that we get our customers’ phones to ring with Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. But I would adapt that based on who I was talking to.
Andrew: I see. So, if you were talking to someone who had a clothing store, how would you like to have more people come into your store using Facebook or had you used Facebook to get people more into your stores, that’s the kind of pitch that you would use.
Kim: Or can you tie–I would get you to do a switch up because I would try to make it a little different–can you tie any direct sales back to Facebook? Our whole niche is sales and social media. People aren’t used to hearing it that way. My secret is always show up differently. Always sound a little different. Always look a little different. Always act a little different.
Andrew: Different from yourself or different from other people?
Kim: Different from other people. Be authentic. Be truly you. But I spent a really long time–I grew up in Long Island and then I went to a small town in Pennsylvania and stayed and started a company. And I spent a long time trying to fit into this small town mentality and I wouldn’t say mentality. I don’t want to insult them because it’s wonderful people.
But it’s a different way of thinking I wanted to blend. I never really blended, but I tried. If I had just gone past that and been who I was in the beginning, it would have made a difference because you stand out, “Okay, there’s something different going on here, so that’s worth paying attention to.” That’s a huge advantage in business and marketing.
Andrew: So, you’re starting to get not even clients at first. You’re saying you’re getting a lot of free work that you were doing for people and that’s why you went to Sandler.
Kim: Yes. I was doing a lot of free consulting. So, in the initial meeting, I’d be telling them all these awesome ideas of things they could do to make their businesses better. And then they had maybe what they needed from me. But yet, I was surprised when they wouldn’t give me money. But they had already gotten great consulting advice for free.
And when you give away great advice for free, it says that you’re not worth very much. So, why should someone pay you if you’re willing to be accessible to all for anything? I didn’t get that back then. So, yeah, Sandler solved a real pain for me that I had to fulfill.
Andrew: I see. And that’s the head trash where you feel like, “Well, my stuff isn’t good enough yet. I need to really win them over by proving to them that what I know is valuable.” And you’re just doing a lot of it for free trying to win them over, but it doesn’t work.
Kim: Or it’s really good, but they’re a really big name and they would only work with me if I wouldn’t charge them anything or I would do it for like nothing. I can’t really charge them the full amount because that’s such a big name and that would be so good for me. So, let me discount it ridiculously high and then somehow try to make payroll. Yeah. It was a horrible cycle.
Andrew: Speaking of making payroll, there was one time that you couldn’t do it and you had to do something dramatic, what did you have to do?
Kim: I hawked my engagement ring.
Andrew: So, this is after you got married.
Kim: Yeah. I was married once before and I got divorced. It was all I had left. I literally had nothing left. I’m a woman of faith. I’m going to get emotional now. You don’t have a lot of people cry on this show and that’s awesome. I was worried about this.
Andrew: Don’t hold back. Do it.
Andrew: Be yourself, frankly.
Kim: You know, I’ve been really blessed by some amazing people who have chosen to believe in me and work for me. I made a commitment from the very, very beginning of time that I would always make their payroll. If they were going to trust me and believe in me, I was always going to make payroll. I just remember at that time where our office was, there was an alley in the back of the office and I had to make payroll. And I had nothing left.
I sat in my car praying about it. A vision of my ring came in my mind. I went back to my apartment. I got it out of my jewelry box. I went to an estate store down the street and with hands shaking, I asked him what he would give me for it. I knew what it was worth. I knew what he gave me wasn’t anywhere close. He asked me that question that I answered, “What do you want? What do you need?” And I told him and that’s what he gave me. I made payroll.
But I knew I was in such a position of weakness because I needed it so bad and I never wanted to be there again. It was definitely one of the low points except I did make payroll. So, that was good. And I’ve never missed it in 15 years of business. So, that’s good too.
Andrew: That’s fantastic. Wow. Even there, you just asked for what you needed, not what you were worth, what the ring was worth?
Andrew: Wow. Did you tell your team about that, did you have to do that to make payroll?
Andrew: When did they find out?
Kim: They found out about it years later when I told the story to a group of entrepreneurs. That wasn’t their burden and they shouldn’t have feared that, “Our boss is either doing things that we can’t believe in and she’s not doing well enough that she won’t have the money,” or, “We’re at risk of not getting our paychecks.” I never wanted them to feel that.
I have one employee, my COO now who’s been with me for ten years, she was let in eventually into some of these things and she’s been incredible and by my side through everything. So, she’s getting to experience the good stuff now. But besides that, no one ever knew what was going on.
Andrew: I know for me the harder parts are they happen in the middle of the night, where I wake up and I go, “How did you let yourself get to this? What if you screw up tomorrow? What if you can’t recover? What if you took too much of a financial risk?” That’s the part that it’s just me alone with these worries and I can’t even explain it to someone else. Do you have something like that?
Kim: Yeah. My answer was always to work harder. When I would have those thoughts at night, I would get up and work.
Andrew: You would?
Kim: Oh, 100 percent. I would do anything I had to do that I thought I could do to make a change. My answer was always to work harder. It was. It was a horrible way to live because I really could never stop because as our cash flow wasn’t good, I felt like I needed to put more time in to produce better results. Yeah. So, I wouldn’t have stayed in bed thinking anything, I would have gotten up and worked.
Andrew: I find that I’m not very helpful at that point.
Kim: Oh yeah. I wasn’t productive.
Andrew: I don’t do the best work.
Kim: No. I wasn’t productive. It was stress. But that’s my body’s reaction, to take action when I’m stressed.
Andrew: I see. I always thought that at some point you get passed that. There is no logical reason for me to be anymore to be as scared as I could be in the middle of the night, where you wake up and go, “Why did I screw this up? This whole thing Mixergy is going to fall part tomorrow.”
Kim: I write it down now. Again, I’m in a different place and I pray and I write it down and that’s made a big difference. I have a lot less nights like that. But still occasionally if I can’t sleep, I’ll get up and either write the list of things that I’m worried about or write the list that’s on my mind or I’ll do some work. That still will happen about one quarter of the time.
Andrew: Yeah. If I do any kind of work at all–
Kim: I don’t stay up all that much.
Andrew: You what?
Kim: Thankfully I don’t stay up that much anymore.
Andrew: I just have to shift my mind. I know intellectually. I know in my head that it doesn’t make sense to worry about it, but I can’t stop myself from doing it. So, I have to just shift my attention towards something else. I just have to learn to shift my attention towards trust–trust that it will work out or remember that you’ve been in worse situations and just get through it.
It’s amazing how many people still feel it. You don’t get past this. My best memory of that is talking to Fred Wilson, the venture capitalist that invested early on in Twitter and Etsy and Zynga and so many other companies. I asked him about it and he said, “Yeah, I felt that last night,” meaning the night before the interview. I thought, “Man, if this guy’s got it together who’s got everything is still going through this, then maybe it’s just part of life.”
Kim: You know, Andrew, what’s been amazing is that the more I spend looking at mindset of people and success–this is just a random fact. So, I sell these courses you mentioned at the beginning. I would say that 15 percent of the people who ever buy my course ever do the course. It’s not because they’re lazy. The number one thing people say is because it’s because people are lazy. It’s because once you start doing the course, you have a chance of failing at it.
So, there’s that fear, “Once I do this, I might actually have to take action and what if that action isn’t successful?” So much success can be prevented from that fear of, “What’s going to happen if I fail?”
Andrew: Weird. I don’t so much have that with educational material that I buy online. Like if I get an audiobook, I’ll play it pretty quickly. If I get a course, I’m curious and I go right through it. For me it’s with shopping of all things.
I hired someone to help me go shopping. She bought me a bunch of stuff. It will sit in my closet until she comes over and says, “Now, Andrew, let’s wear these pants.” And the reason is, “What if I wear them and they don’t look right and now I’ve spent all this time trying to get these pants and all this money and the jeans just don’t fit right?” It’s weird. I think you’re right. It’s fear of failure that will stop us from doing it.
Kim: Yeah. Totally.
Andrew: Maybe now is a really good time to take a break and talk about my sponsor, HostGator. We’ll get you on an up note, HostGator, you should be so lucky to have sponsored Mixergy. But actually, it is a really good time to talk about it and here’s why.
I think a lot of us have ideas for interesting sites. But we don’t launch them because we’re worried about so many things. What if we launch it and it doesn’t look right? What if it sucks up too much of our time? What if this idea isn’t ready for me to launch a site about it? All this inner junk, what Kim called head trash, is in there. Really, if you think about it, you’ll see, you’ll admit to yourself that that’s true. Well, it doesn’t have to hold you back.
All you have to do is go to HostGator.com/Mixergy. For just a few bucks, you have your own hosted site. You can install WordPress. You can install a form. You can install anything. Frankly, WordPress alone, I think, in minutes is all you need to launch your site and see what the world thinks of your idea and frankly to see how you feel about it.
I started Mixergy when I installed WordPress and just started experimenting and testing out different themes without anyone even noticing it. I just went and I told my hosting company, which was a junkie company that I wouldn’t necessarily recommend now, I just said, “Go to Blog.Mixergy.com and put WordPress on there.” And it did it.
HostGator could do that for you too. Nobody knew about Blog.Mixergy.com. I could just play with it. Install a theme and then try a different theme and then try a different language until I could figure out what Mixergy could be. And seeing it live on a webpage that only I have access to helped make it feel more real, helped make it feel like something at first that I wasn’t excited about and then something that I was more proud of and then something I couldn’t wait to show the world.
So, then I hit–not hit the button–but I actually had to check off a box and then hit a button and then the site went live and Google could crawl it and people could actually check it out. And that’s where ideas come from. It’s not just about journaling it. It’s not just about thinking about it. It’s not just about talking to your friends.
You can sit down and you can actually build the site using WordPress and all these other tools that HostGator makes available to you including online ecommerce. There’s no offline ecommerce, right? So, ecommerce or anything else, it’s available for you incredibly inexpensively. So, there’s no reason why you shouldn’t launch it other than your head trash.
So, go to HostGator.com/Mixergy, create your site and then I want you to email it to me. Email it to Andrew@Mixergy.com. I want to see what you’ve done. I want to see what you’ve built. If you do it within a month of hearing this, meaning a month of me publishing it and you have any issues, especially if it’s WordPress, email me and I’ll ask my tech team to help you out. But I want you to go and do it and get started. It’s so much easier than you think. Go to HostGator.com/Mixergy. Sorry?
Kim: Will there be show notes? Is there an ability to comment?
Kim: If they comment with their link, I’d love to check it out. I’d love to give a call to action that we can actually do a back link opportunity for them on this.
Andrew: Yes. Let’s do that. Instead of emailing it to me privately, if you have any questions–Kim, you’re freaking right–in the comments right here, if you post a link to something you created using HostGator and you ask a question, I will give you feedback. Not just me, I could do it, but me and Michael who does tech for Mixergy can give you feedback if you’re having trouble installing plugins, trying to figure out what plugin, trying to figure out how to launch a site because it’s not taking you the five minutes that I believe it could take you, we’ll help you out.
Go to HostGator.com/Mixergy. Get your idea up and started and I’m looking forward to seeing your results and frankly everyone else who’s listening in the comments here.
Kim: Yeah, even if not a problem. I think if they just got it done in this month, just say, “I did it,” and post a link to your site. That would be awesome.
Andrew: Oh, that would be great. Good call. I like that. There’s a thought process that I didn’t pick up on. I just liked the results. But there’s a process that I want to understand. What were you thinking? As someone who’s really good at social media and really good at promotion, how were you thinking about the way I just presented it that helped reshape it?
Kim: Well, that’s the second part of the story where it got successful, being introduced to the world of Dan Kennedy and direct response marketing. There has to be a call to action with an incentive and a deadline.
So, there was you had the call to action, but it was based on those only having problems. I thought, “Ugh, do you really just want comments filled with questions you have to answer?” But instead if you incentive everyone to go ahead and get it done in a month and what’s their incentive? They could get a link–that’s why I said back link–and they could get feedback. Now you just created the incentive, the call to action and the deadline.
Andrew: Ah, right. So, that’s why you’re even saying, “Are there show notes?” so that we can give them a link in the show notes, not the comments that are better, more valuable than the links in the comments. I see. That makes so much sense. So, how did you get involved now with the online world? So far a lot of what we talked about seems more offline. It’s public relations. It’s newspapers. How did you get involved with the online part?
Kim: Yes. So, six years ago, I had met the love of my life. We got married. Then we found out we were having our daughter. I knew I couldn’t keep going like I was going. I was still working at least 80 hours a week. I never stopped working. I was totally broke. I had hawked everything. At another point I declared bankruptcy. I literally had nothing and I didn’t want to keep doing that anymore. I wanted to have a life. I wanted to have health. Again, I prayed and knew that not I needed to change. Something had to change. I couldn’t work any harder.
That’s when a friend of mind gave me Dan Kennedy’s “No B.S.” direct response marketing book. It’s a writer-downer. I’ve heard it mentioned a couple times by your guests. If you haven’t read that book, no matter what industry you’re in, this book is a game-changer because it shows not only the way to market for sales but that everything should be measured and that you can control your future.
This was this amazing aha moment. My clients loved us. We got along great with people. We were good at thanking, good at relationships, but I couldn’t tell them how I made them money. I just was doing fluffy PR and events and it wasn’t trackable. And all of a sudden I thought, “This is my solution.” I can start going after clients differently that didn’t require me to go to networking events and I could also make money from my clients differently, which meant online. We totally changed our agency at that point.
Andrew: How would you get your clients then? I understand the value to clients. Now they get real results. Now you can more easily charge them because you can prove to them the value of working with you on your website that says “Got ROI for Reason,” that’s up there and big because you can deliverable a measurable return on investment. But how did you get more clients now that you had this new format?
Kim: So, a few different things. One is I’ve always written. I enjoyed writing, but now my writing became much more strategic. We positioned ourselves differently. One, we talked about how expensive we were, which of course was way different than doing stuff at a discount.
From Dan and reading all the stuff, I discovered, “Okay, if we start positioning ourselves as expensive, that makes it more desired and that’s going to get people used to it and they’re only going to talk to us if they’re willing to pay some money.” So, you won’t waste time with people who don’t have a budget. I also began talking a lot about how marketing should equal sales. So, we began talking about the kinds of clients I wanted.
My content became predictable and consistent. So, I started sending out a post every single Wednesday. We have not missed a Wednesday in the last six years. We began to use our social media networks not to promote others and other people’s quotes but to do our own thought leadership, start to put me out there more as the thought leader, the celebrity, the authority.
So, that organically started to bring people in. But the real game changers did not come until what we just did, which was put calls to action in with time-sensitive deadlines and incentives.
So, one time I wanted some new clients, we needed some new clients and I said, “What are we going to do this week?” I just did a little P.S. saying, “If you request a,” and we changed it from a–I forget what other people call it, but we call it a prospective client interview. So, I’m interviewing my potential clients, which changes things. But, “If you request a prospective client interview this week, you will get a free Customer Attraction Toolkit. I valued it at $975.” We got five new leads in that week. I had no idea what the Customer Attraction Toolkit was.
Andrew: And you’d just go and make it up.
Kim: Yeah. I just made it up. I made up the name to see if it would work. It worked. Here we have five new clients coming in and now I’m just going to go create this thing. So, that was stuff I never would have done before I understood what direct response was.
Andrew: I see it. I do see actually you haven’t missed a week. I’m scrolling down trying to see if that is true. But it’s Tuesdays that you publish on the blog and Wednesdays that you email it.
Kim: Wednesdays. Well, yeah, we post Tuesday nights and then send it out Wednesday.
Andrew: I see posts like “How to Create a Facebook Ad that Sells: Here are the Three Points” actually it’s more than three points. “Write a headline that addresses the you,” the number two point is, “Be willing to be controversial.” Three, “Speak to your perfect prospect,” and then you just keep breaking it down.
Here’s what I like. I’ve seen you do this in other formats too, I think maybe on LinkedIn. You give these points about how to make the right Facebook ad and then you post a screenshot of one of the ads that you’ve done and you put a number next to each item on the ad that corresponds to the point that you just taught.
So, for example, the first one that I read was, “Write a headline that addresses you.” Your headline is, “Forget Wall Street: Pamela Yellen Explains How You Can Control Your Financial Future.” So, there’s a number one pointing so that we can connect the tip with how it’s used in your ad. I hope I explained that well. I think it’s so much better to see it. That’s just IOCreativeGroup.com/Blog and if you scroll around you’ll find some of these posts.
I see the difference here. Was it that dramatic that as soon as you got this stuff, things just started to take off or was it still a struggle?
Kim: No. It was a pretty big difference. It was also having more confidence going into prospect meetings. A huge game changer was sending questions ahead of times to prospects. So, “Here’s what we’re going to talk about. We’re going to talk about your budget. We’re going to talk about the things that you’ve liked, you haven’t liked.” Those are things that prospects want to keep from you. We knew that we were going to talk about those now when we met. So, either they weren’t comfortable with it and we wouldn’t meet or they think, “Oh, this person is real serious.”
I also went and did my first self-published book. That was a big one because then before I met with a prospect, I wrote a book called “Awareness Campaigns are Stupid and Other Secrets to Stop Being an Advertising Victim and Start Monetizing Your Marketing.” I would send it to prospects prior to our meeting. And so, they were not only meeting with an owner of an agency, they’re meeting with the author, the expert. So, now I wasn’t one of many. I was one of one. It completely–that was a big one too. So, content in the blog format and the book format and with our social media posts.
Andrew: I just went to another thing that you do a lot. You have a click to tweet on a lot of your content. I even saw a LinkedIn article that you said you had an H2 or a sub-headline and the sub-headline was clickable to tweet. I said, “That’s a smart move,” right? I may not want to tweet the whole article, but this click to tweet on the sub-headline really makes sense.
Kim: Yeah. It’s the repurposing of content. How can you get the most out of every piece of content you write by using all these different strategies in one piece?
Andrew: I sometimes wonder whether I should be looking at my guest’s site as I talk to them because it is a bit of a distraction. Anyone who’s watching my video can see I’m going this way and that way and that way.
Kim: It adds credibility. It’s good. It adds total credibility.
Andrew: I think so too. As long as I point it out, as long as I say what I’m doing. Otherwise it looks like I’m not at all paying attention and looking at my inbox.
Kim: Or ordering new clothes. Yeah. That’s not good.
Andrew: You know, I teach interviewing skills to some people in the audience. This one guy set his thing up so that when the guest is talking, only the guest is on camera and he is off camera. When he’s talking, he’s on camera. I thought, “That is really smart. I should be doing something like that,” because then it means I could look around–
Kim: I don’t think so.
Andrew: And not have my eyes all over the place while people are trying to pay attention to my guest. I think it works both ways.
Kim: I don’t think so because you paying attention shows credibility that they should pay attention.
Andrew: That makes sense.
Kim: So, if you never had it on you, they could feel like they could zone out too while the person is talking.
Andrew: And I also think that it reminds the guest, “Hey, there’s another human being who’s actually going to be listening. Don’t go on for hours or just keep talking about your business because there’s someone else who’s watching.” I think it works both ways. You do only audio. Where do you publish your stuff?
Kim: Oh, you mean publish my audio?
Kim: Yeah. We’re launching a podcast, Facebook sales podcast.
Andrew: And it’s not up yet?
Kim: It will be up soon. It’s not up yet.
Andrew: I see. Why did you decide to go only audio?
Kim: I do some video stuff for my members. But I think just logistically I have to be in a certain place at a certain time. As a guy, you can get out of the shower and look like that. As a female, that does not just happen. So, it’s a little more complicated for women to do ongoing video podcasts.
Andrew: That makes sense. So, there are higher expectations.
Andrew: I was going to say I still think you can just do video guests even if you only publush the audio.
Kim: Oh, okay. I could. That’s a good idea.
Andrew: It works all ways. We were actually talking again in my community about whether text makes sense. Even text alone makes sense. Text is just so viral. The key part, I think, for me when it comes to conversation is doing–I like doing interviews with other people because then I get to learn from them and then there’s someone else who’s kind of helping to grow the audience, someone else who’s helping to shape the content. It really helps tremendously. It’s not all on my shoulders to figure out what to say and how to get an audience.
Speaking of educational material, you started teaching your own stuff. Why did you start to do that if you have an agency?
Kim: Well, there’s a whole group of people because we are not cheap to do business with us, there’s a whole group of people that I want to help empower to not waste money on marketing. And there’s also a huge benefit for me financially. So, I get to teach people who want to do it themselves and I get to create a product that’s not our time because our agency is all time-based.
So, if I go into an event and speak to sell and I’m really good at it, half of the people will buy services that we provide, which is a higher price point, but then half the people will buy my course, which requires me to do nothing because the course is already done. So, it’s an awesome opportunity. Being a Dan Kennedy prodigy, I had to create a product that would help our income and our time.
Andrew: What’s the first product that you created?
Kim: It was a Facebook, like a quick Facebook sales course. Most of the work that we’ve done is around that. I have one LinkedIn course that I show people how to use LinkedIn for quicker prospecting, ten minutes twice a week. But most everything we do is around Facebook sales.
Andrew: I see. “The Ultimate Guide to Facebook Ads” you have on your site. You have “Facebook Sales Funnels 2.0.” What went into creating your first one?
Kim: Just showing them–because the benefit is that we’re not just internet marketers, we actually do this for a living as an agency. So, I just take them step by step using–I learned very quickly–using a Yeti microphone and Camtasia to do PowerPoint screen sharing of how we do what we do inside of setting up marketing campaigns and monetizing them.
Andrew: That’s what it was. “I’m going to show you how we do it. I’ll turn my screen on and you can watch along.”
Andrew: By the way, if anyone hears that sound, that radar sound, it’s because on your site you have one of those live chat boxes where I can chat with someone on your team. I keep going into different pages, which triggers that.
Andrew: Who runs that for you?
Kim: My staff.
Andrew: So, it’s someone at the company or I guess the whole company has access to it via Skype or whatever chat program.
Kim: Yeah. I have an office manager and her job is to manage most of the time, but then she has other people fill in if she’s not at her desk.
Andrew: I’ve wanted to do that. We do that when we launch something new to get some feedback in real time. It’s just been fantastic. But we don’t do it enough.
Kim: Yeah, because you can set it to not answer, just leave a message. We get a lot more messages through that than we do through our contact form.
Andrew: Why is it so important to get more messages from people?
Kim: Because you want to know what they’re thinking. Good, bad or indifferent, I want to know if, since we have a monthly subscription program, I want to know if people are unhappy I want to know if they have a question, if they want to make a purchase, they want to get a job. It just gives us another opportunity to have a conversation with somebody. We want to make it convenient, easy and anonymous if they want to use the chat box to not let us know who they are.
Andrew: Is it Marketing Insiders Elite that’s the monthly?
Andrew: Okay. How did you decide what to put into it?
Kim: I based it really as it being a student of so many different groups and belonging to lots of different organizations, I knew what I wanted, so I did not do market research. Now, we have since. We do surveying and we ask a lot of questions. I knew I wanted a print piece. I wanted a newsletter that would actually go in the physical mail and be sent to someone hat they could hold on to and would be filled with nothing but pure content. And then I wanted tips that would go out on a consistent basis and I wanted to build a community.
So, those are the basic points. We’ve changed it over time, but those core elements have stayed in place. A big change was we used to do a monthly CD, interviewing and expert and our members told me that they wanted more of me. So, instead now we do a weekly live coaching call that I show them the campaign that we’re doing right now for our clients that’s working the best that week.
Andrew: Oh wow. And your clients let you do that?
Kim: Yeah, totally.
Kim: We don’t tell too much that would be giving away. But you could go through a Facebook funnel just clicking on an ad. So, we’re not giving away stuff that’s not accessible.
Andrew: But you’re explaining the logic behind putting it together.
Kim: Exactly. Members love it because they’re an agency, so they get to see behind the scenes. And then we’re repurposing work that we’re already doing. So, it’s really cool.
Andrew: You know, the Facebook group is really interesting to me. I see how valuable it is. When I’ve talked to my members at Mixergy Premium about whether I should create a community, their eyes always freaking light up. So, I know I need to do it. But it’s also a scary prospect because if you just let people go in and talk about anything, it becomes meaningless. What did you do to keep your conversation valuable, to make it so useful that people feel like they should keep paying you for it?
Kim: Quick wins. That’s the big secret, making sure that every single week, if not every day we’re giving them something they can put into action right now. You and I both know that people don’t need more ideas. They need more implementation. However, if I can give you a quick idea today that you’re ready to implement today, that’s going to be success today. So, less about chat. We’re not just asking like, “How are you today?” or, “Where are you going on vacation?” Not that those things aren’t important, but what we try to do is give them real actionable items that they can put into practice.
Andrew: I see. And then in the community they come back to report on it. What’s an example of an actionable item?
Kim: So, okay, use the change your cover photo into a lead magnet and we’ll give you the step by step instruction on how to do it. Then we’ll have everybody who have done it post a link to their page so other people can check it out. That gives them an opportunity to to get more leads and show they did it.
Andrew: That’s fantastic. They’re all doing it at the same time. And I can see how that doesn’t take much work. You don’t need a developer to do it. You can set something up very quickly and then get results right away. Wow. That’s fantastic.
Andrew: All right. You know what? I’m looking to see if I have this in my notes and I don’t think I do. Revenues–I’m curious about what kind of revenues you’re doing?
Kim: Last year we ended at $1.2 million.
Andrew: Wow. And how big a team do you have?
Kim: I have 14 people on staff.
Andrew: Wow. Wait, how did you do $1.2 million with 14 people?
Kim: Central Pennsylvania.
Andrew: Ah, I see, as opposed to San Francisco. Here, that’s like three people.
Kim: No, I’m in New York City. But most of my staff is in our Pennsylvania office.
Andrew: That’s phenomenal. No more hawking your ring. Did you ever get it back?
Kim: No. But I didn’t get that marriage back either.
Andrew: Wow. So, that guy at the pawn shop ended up getting your ring for a steal.
Kim: Yeah. He did.
Andrew: But you don’t seem bothered by it.
Kim: No. Look where I am now. It’s amazing. That gave me a little stepping stone. We’re growing so quickly and I feel like a startup even though we’ve been in business for 15 years, which sounds so weird, but we’ve just revolutionized and I now because we’re doing well financially, I’ve gotten to focus on things like culture and we have an amazing team and I can spend time with–
Andrew: The culture, you’ve got to talk about Disney.
Kim: Which part about Disney? How I’m obsessed?
Andrew: Are you obsessed with Disney?
Kim: Oh, I love it so much.
Andrew: What’s the obsession with Disney?
Kim: Everything. I love the business side, how they market, monetize, do pricing. So, they’ll do a really expensive jewelry shop and then outside they’ll put $20 necklaces that are worth like a buck but people buy them because it’s positioned well. But I also love the experience. We have such a great time. I have two little girls. They have a blast. But I’ve gone even before I had kids, so I can’t blame it on them.
So, I’m a Dan Kennedy devotee and I won a contest and got to present in front of him. At that lunch, he discussed he was doing Disney’s VIP tour. I thought, “Oh my gosh, I totally want to do that. If I can hit $1 million in revenue before 40, for my 40th birthday, I’m going to take all my family on this VIP tour and go experience that.” Not only did I get to know him, but now I’m the coauthor of his next “No B.S.” book.
Andrew: The one that turned everything around for you.
Kim: Yeah, really. And then I got to take all my family with me to Disney in January on the VIP tour. And it was an awesome, awesome–I feel very, very blessed. To have the people around me that have been by me before I could afford to do something like that and after has been really cool too.
Andrew: Here’s a note from my producer. While you were away in Disney, you sold more in revenue in digital products, which are fairly new to you, than you spent on the entire trip.
Kim: That’s right.
Kim: I was on the It’s a Small World ride and I glanced down at my phone and we had more sales on that day to pay for the entire trip.
Andrew: Well, speaking of family, last Wednesday we were actually scheduled to record this interview, but I couldn’t do it. Last minute I called up your office and I said, “My son’s got this rash. My wife would feel more comfortable if I took him to the doctor. Can we reschedule?” You guys were so amazing about it. It wasn’t you. I spoke to someone else on your team. But you didn’t just say, “Yeah, sure, we can reschedule.” She talked about her baby and just said, “I understand what it’s like. I understand.” Just such a considerate response was so appreciated.
Kim: Yeah. That goes without saying. We’re 100 percent people before profits. I have a nursery in my office.
Andrew: You do?
Kim: So, all the moms can bring their kids to work.
Andrew: And who takes care of them?
Kim: A nanny. I have a nanny on staff.
Andrew: What a smart idea.
Kim: It’s awesome for everybody because the kids are there and the moms feel better and they’re happier. If that stuff doesn’t work, if that stuff is not going well, who’s going to do their job well? People need to feel good about their family and their lives, for sure.
Andrew: Wow. And you’re not even running a huge company. Well, here it’s just me so I have a nanny, just for everyone who works at Mixergy. But it would be nice if there was one in the building.
Kim: It could be.
Andrew: It would be nice if I could bring my child into work with me.
Kim: If you just ask, there could be enough people that it makes sense. When I first went to look for my first office and said, “We need a space in our office that would include a nursery,” they were like, “Ehh…” but now our commercial realtor gets it. So, he only shows me spaces that would include a nursery.
Andrew: It turns out it doesn’t even take that much to do. And then you win people over so much.
Kim: There’s a tax break too.
Andrew: Obviously it takes work. It takes more work than not doing.
Kim: It takes work. And I definitely subsidize it financially. But that’s fine. That’s great. That’s awesome. And it’s great for the kids too because they have socialization but their parents are nearby.
Andrew: Good idea. All right. So, let me close this out by using the idea that Kim just taught me, which is if you actually use my sponsor, whether you have an issue or not, come back to the comments of this post and tell us about how you used HostGator. In fact, go to HostGator.com/Mixergy. I always remember their name because of the alligator in their logo. That really is powerful–HostGator.com/Mixergy.
Set it up. If you have any issues, we’ll talk about it in the comments. If you have a win, we’ll celebrate it no matter what. We’ll link back to you so you can start getting some links and so you can start getting some traffic from other Mixergy fans. Number two, we started this interview with no introduction and definitely not a URL. I think I should end it with a URL.
Kim: You gave out my blog, which was really nice.
Andrew: Yeah, the blog is really good.
Kim: You gave the link out, which I was happy about.
Andrew: Did I? And then of course we’ll link to it in the show notes from right at the top. I should say IOCreativeGroup.com.
Kim: That’s right.
Andrew: That’s where they can see the blog and look at the articles that we talk about. Kim, thanks so much for doing this.
Kim: Thanks for having me. It was such a pleasure and honor, Andrew.
Andrew: Fantastic. Thank you. Thanks for listening, Kim and thank you all for being a part of Mixergy. Bye, everyone.