Andrew: Three messages before we get started. If you’re a tech entrepreneur, don’t you have unique legal needs that the average lawyer can’t help you with? That’s why you need Scott Edward Walker of Walker Corporate Law. If you read his articles on Venture Beat you’d know that he can help you with issues like raising money, or issuing stock options or even deciding form a corporation. Scott Edward Walker is the entrepreneur’s lawyer. See him at WalkerCorporateLaw.com
And do you remember when I interviewed (?) about how thousands of people pay for her job site. Look at the biggest point that she made. She said that she has a phone number on every page of her site because and here’s a stat, 95% of the people who call, end up buying. Most people though don’t call her. But seeing a real number increases their confidence in her and they buy. So try this, go to Grasshopper.com and get a phone number that will make your company sound professional. Add it to your site, and see what happens. Grasshopper.com.
And remember Patrick Buckley who I interviewed. He came up with an idea for an iPad case. He built a store to sell it, and in a few months he generated about $1,000,000 in sales. Well the platform he used is Shopify. If you have an idea to sell anything, setup your store on Shopify.com because Shopify stores are designed to increase sales. Plus Shopify makes it easy to set up a beautiful store and manage it. Shopify.com. Here’s your program.
Andrew: Hi everyone, I’m Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart. And the place where entrepreneurs teach you what they’ve learned as they’ve built their businesses. The question for this interview is how does an entrepreneur use Mind Frame Persuasion to close sales. Ross Jeffries is known for helping men use psychology to attract woman. He’s the creator of Speed Seduction, a set of personal development courses and programs that draw on neurolinguistic programming and hypnotic techniques. He recently created Mind Frame Persuasion, a technology for successful persuading people by capturing and leading their imagination and emotions. I invited him here to teach Mind Frame Persuasion, Ross, Welcome.
Ross: It’s my pleasure, I’m very, very honored to have the opportunity to reach out and touch a completely different audience than the one I normally address. So all you upstart entrepreneurs good to be speaking to you today.
Andrew: It’s good to have you on here. So I know one of the things that people are going to be wondering is what is this and frankly what’s in it for me. So do you have an example that illustrates what Mind Frame Persuasion and shows them the benefit, what’s in if for them?
Ross: Yes. Well before I get started, I just want to say that it’s often very common as people listen to me describe this they develop a strong state of absorption. A state where it just feels like everything I say is incredibly important. Like, they’re hanging on every word. It’s not because I’m going to say anything like well you know, as you listen to me and you really tune in to just what it is you want learn it can be so useful in the business that you see yourself succeeding in I don’t know what that is.
But I think rather, Andrew, because what I say so resonates with the truth inside people so touches that place inside where they really do want to learn something that can change their lives, that they just find themselves naturally and easily paying attention to every word. And whether they agree with me completely or just find themselves open to finding what it is they agree for their own reasons. I ‘m very happy to be here today to share this life changing information.
Andrew: You know what, I don’t know if you noticed it but we’re on camera so you might have to I leaned in a little bit more as you said that. What exactly were you doing there?
Ross: Well, first of all, this is an example of several different things. First, it’s an example of using vague language. Nowhere in anything of what I just said is there anything specific. I didn’t specifically say here’s exactly what you’re going to like about Mind Frame Persuasion. I didn’t say you’re going to like the fact that Mind Frame Persuasion will show you how to write headlines that will get people instantaneously convinced that your message is really important that they’ve go to read it.
I didn’t say directly, well the thing you’ll love about Mind Frame Persuasion is it’ll teach you how to be on stage in front of a live audience and speak to people in such a way where they feel like you’re talking directly to them. Like, you are an absolute authority on their world. I didn’t say any of those things. Instead, I kept it very vague by saying before getting started I just want to let you know it’s very common for people to feel a state of absolute absorption.
So I was also giving little commands like, feel a state of absorption. Feel fascinated. Hang on every word, right? I snuck in those little commands, and then I said something else. I said, “And it’s not like I am going to say to people–I quoted myself–it’s not like I am going to say to you, Andrew, ‘Become fascinated. Hang on every word. Recognize you are listening carefully now.” I quoted myself by saying, “I am not going to say this,” and in spite of that, I embedded more commands and more suggestions, and then I finished up by being vague again. I said, “Rather it’s because when I speak, it so reaches that place of truth inside.”
Now, I did not say the truth about what. I am vague. I did not say, “It reaches the truth about what you think about your finances and how you are going to invest in your 401k.” I did not say that. I left it vague, and one of the major skill sets of my training in persuasion is to teach people to use vague language. That is for two reasons. I will unpack it later in the interview, but it is for two reasons.
First of all, when you speak vaguely, the other person has to use their own imagination to fill in the blank, and because they are using their own imagination, it does not feel like you are imposing something from the outside. It feels to them like they are creating it, so number one, they do not resist it. Number two, they will match what you are saying in a way that makes it seem like a perfect fit.
Number three, you create the illusion that you are an expert in their world, that you understand them very deeply, so one of the major skill pieces we teach in Mind Frame Persuasion is how to be skillfully vague. Knowing when to be vague and when to be specific–and this applies to whether you are writing sales copy for your webpage or whether you are doing a live presentation does not matter. Knowing when to be vague and when to be specific and how to go artfully back and forth between those two is a profoundly powerful skill.
Now, I do not care what you used to think about being persuasive before you now start to listen to this interview. Maybe you thought it was about being a really good speaker: having a great voice or great diction or being charismatic, whatever, but in fact, one of the core skills that you never hear anyone talk about–even people who are good at this, because I do not think they understand it–is knowing when to be vague and when to be specific, and how to go back and forth between those, because unconsciously, it sets up like a massaging rhythm. The unconscious mind says, “Ooh, vague, I like it. Oh, now I want specifics to hold on. Give me specifics,” and it is sort of like an unconscious massage going on. It sets up profound trust and rapport.
Andrew: OK, so if I were in your place and I want to unpack and understand, I read about how…
Ross: My next book is (?) about this, so I…
Andrew: I can see that, actually. I want to understand how my audience can get results from this and then come back and hopefully thank me for doing this interview. That is how I know I have done a good job, but one of the things that I noticed in the beginning is that you did not say to my audience, “Guys, hang on to every word that I am going to say to you.” You did not say that to me, either, even though that is one of your goals, clearly.
Andrew: Instead of saying, literally, “Hang onto every word I am going to say to you,” to achieve that goal, how did you say it? How did you express it?
Ross: What I did is I said, “I just want to say, Andrew, that it is very common when people listen to me that they find a sense of total absorption, and sometimes can even find themselves beginning to hang on every word,” so I am embedding suggestions. “Find a state of absorption. Hang on every word.” These are commands and/or suggestions that I am embedding. I do not directly say, “Listen, you are going to become fascinated with me. You are going to trust me, and you are going to buy from me today.” People just give you one of these or walk away.
Andrew: The finger?
Ross: Instead, I use my communication. I have multiple tracks on my communication. Let’s use a metaphor. By the way, metaphors are profoundly powerful as some strategies. Let’s use a metaphor. Have you ever seen a mixer board for a recording studio?
Andrew: For audio?
Ross: Absolutely, one where it has different tracks? When I persuade, I have different tracks. One is the conscious theme that I am offering people, that they are following. The other is the commands and the suggestions that I am going to embed, so for example, if I want a state of fascination, some of the commands I am going to put in are, “Hang on every word. Feel a state of absorption. Listen with complete attention,” so the first track it is apparent what I am talking about, but the second track is how I insert these little pieces of persuasive code within that.
Think of another metaphor ‚Äì the Trojan horse. You know the story of the Trojan horse. The Greeks brought that horse in front of the gates of Troy as a gift, but inside of it were the little soldiers ready to jump out, so I think in terms of, “What are the little pieces of commands that I want to insert first,” and then first I think, “What are the states of consciousness I want my audience, whether they’re in writing or in person or through a recording like this, what are the states of consciousness I want them to start out with? Well I want them to start out feeling absorbed and fascinated, right? Those are good states to start with. This is why we call it mind frame persuasion because I’m thinking what are the frames of mind my audience is starting out with, receiving my message through? And what do I want to build instead? What are the frames of mind through which I want my audience to receive my message? Does that make sense?
Andrew: Yeah, and before I ask my next question can you put Skype on do not disturb? I should have asked you before the interview started.
Ross: How do I do that?
Andrew: The little bubble that looks probably green on your screen. The little thing that looks like a cloud, if you go to do not disturb on that, the red. We won’t hear any of the noises of people popping into your Skype life.
Ross: Sorry about that.
Andrew: Here’s the thing that I noticed you did. First of all, you had a deliberate way of saying it. Second, you put the words in someone else’s mouth. You didn’t say I am someone, you are going to hang on every word of mine. You didn’t give them a command. You said “people often say.” Why put it in other people’s mouths, so to speak?
Ross: This is very powerful persuaders (?) called quotes. If I’m going to put in a message that I feel might encounter some resistance or is very heavy handed I’ll quote somebody else. Because the unconscious mind recognizes structures and when you quote somebody else the mind sort of relaxes and goes oh, he’s not saying it directly to me. He’s just relating something that he heard. By the way, this is very common. We often communicate when we talk to people, it’s very common for us to quote what we heard, what someone else said. I’m just quoting myself. I’m sort of saying it’s common for other people to experience this. I’m not saying that they have experienced it.
Andrew: Ross, if I were, for example, going to be in an interview and want to ask a tough question, one that’s a little bit ballsy, I might not want to put it out there directly. I might instead want to say something like you know, my audience always pushes me to ask why are you such a jerk? Or whatever it is that’s tough to ask. Put the words in someone else’s mouth is what you suggest?
Ross: I would say it like this (?) but first I want to set up a state of receptivity where that person would be a little more likely to answer. I would do it like this. I’d say you know, I’ve been in interview situations and sometimes in an interview you really feel like you’re on the spot. I also know at other times, for reasons that may not even be readily apparent, there’s a state of feeling really relaxed and wanting to speak your truth. Wanting people to be able to really, really listen and knowing that you’re going to be heard. With that said I’m curious, I know many people would look at you and say come on, really, you can tell me. What really went down that night?
Andrew: I see, so first I get them prepped then I put the words in someone else’s mouth?
Andrew: How do I prep somebody?
Ross: Well, notice what I just said. What you want to do, one way to prepare someone’s state of mind is to use truisms. Truisms are experiences that we’ve all had and depict reality. Say you know, I know it can be very common when you’re in an interview to feel put on the spot and to feel that people really aren’t listening and that you’re being pressured. Even at the same time. Oh yeah, he understands. That’s how I feel. Yet, at the same time, I know from time to time I’ve been in those situations where I just feel like yeah, this is your chance to really be heard. Now I’m prescribing the state I want him to be in, right?
This is your chance to just feel that you know, to know that you’re going to be listened to and that people are going to open up and hear your side of things. Having said that I’m just curious, many people would say right now, would look at you in this situation and say what really down that evening? Tell us your truth. Tell us what happened from your point of view.
Andrew: OK. What we’ve got is first you give them a truism. Then you give them the benefit, which is they want to be heard. Then you put…
Ross: Well, hold on. You give them a truism that matches their current state of resistance. You know, I know it’s really common in this kind of situation in interviews to feel like you’re being put on the spot like someone’s trying to trip you up. I don’t like feeling that way. I hate it. Whew, he understands me. Now what’s he going to do? And you know, sometimes, from time to time, I’ve had the experience of just feeling hey, wait, wow, this is a chance to be listened to. I do this little nod. If I see them do that little unconscious nod with me I’ve got them.
Andrew: You’ve got them! You know what, by the way, I was doing the nod as you were doing it and then you brought it up. I caught myself for a second and said it’s got to go with what you did. OK, so then you do the nod because you want me to nod along with you?
Ross: Well, I want to see if you’re following. I do it not like this, but a little unconscious nod. This is what people do (?). In a sense I’m not creating things out of thin air, I’m just noticing what people have left unnoticed.
Andrew: OK, so for my audience of entrepreneurs, first of all he’s got a couple of cats here that are going to be running on the screen at times and apparently pushing on the computer and wrestling with the keyboard which we are going to accept because we are talking to Ross Jeffries. This is part of Ross Jeffries.
Ross: I’m sorry, you can’t persuade the cats. I keep the cats because cats are the one creature that you can’t persuade. They’re going to do what they’re going to do and make no apologies. I need that reminder.
Andrew: Here’s the thing. I don’t know if I set this up properly in the introduction but the idea behind this interview, guys, is that you’re going to be able to take these tactics and apply them to your writing so that you can communicate more persuasively online and in texts. You’re going to use it when you’re talking to people one on one. You’re going to use it when you’re trying to make a sale. What you’re teaching us, Ross, is persuasion skills we can use anytime we want to persuade people.
Ross: Yes, yes. Whether it’s done from the platform, like in a boardroom presentation or you’re a professional speaker, or an attorney, or whether you’re doing it through writing. Now there are a few different subtleties when you’re doing written presentations but fundamentally the basic rules of persuading people are the same. Just to unpack this really carefully and make sure you understand the algorithm, because when I teach yes, I’ll give people word for word examples but it’s far more important to me that people understand the principles.
If you understand the principles of how this works then you can find yourself getting really excited. Not just because you know little specific pieces of what I say but rather because you can generate your own. You can generate your own methods, your own techniques, your own wording, that feels even more right to you than what I’m already saying that feels so right. Knowing that both what I say feels right and will work and what you will generate for your own in a way that matches your needs, your personality and that will work (inaudible). Wow, that’s a double benefit that put together will let you know that there’s something here that you’ve got buy into.
By the way, I just want to say that one of the byproducts of using this technology is that persuasion becomes fun. You can go from someone who hates the whole idea of persuasion to someone who goes wow, this is fun. It’s enhancing me and the people around me.
Now, did you notice what I slid in there?
Ross: You didn’t notice, that’s fine.
Andrew: What did you slide in there?
Ross: One of the byproducts, buy products, of Mind Frame Persuasion.
Andrew: You’re getting me ready to get comfortable with the idea of buying your products and doing the same for the audience.
Ross: You’ve got it. Here’s the funny thing, this works so well even if you realize what I’m doing that’s just proof it’s still working because it’s just that powerful.
Andrew: Is that, by the way, I remember maybe it was ten years ago I remember I saw something online about weasel words. Is that…
Ross: Phrases, (?). I am taking some of the Speed Seduction technology and mapping it and morphing it over into this realm. I know there are a lot of women watching this and I just want to say whether you hate my marketing or my online persona, or you don’t like the idea of men having power and choice with women, or you’re one of the ladies who says bring it on.
The men I’m meeting are knobs, they’re either like dish rags who don’t have any assertiveness or they’re jerks. It’d be great to find a man who’s as adoring as he is aggressive, who’s as dominant as he is devoted. Great, if you’re building men like that, Ross, I want to come to a seminar. By the way, women get to come to my seminars free. I’m not joking. They can come to any Speed Seduction seminar. They have to email me first, I want to make sure they’re cool and not going to disrupt. We’re doing one in L.A. in January. If you’re a lady who wants to work (?). This really works for men and you can use it on women, just email Ross@seduction.com.
Andrew: Ross@seduction.com. Of course, what you’re talking about Ross is you are known for the guy who teaches men how to meet women. You teach them seduction techniques. You teach them NLP techniques. Now what you’re doing, as you said, you’re taking those ideas, the ones that made you one of the stars of the book The Game and one of the leaders in that space, if not the originator, and you’re bringing those tactics to persuasion in business. That’s what we’re getting at here.
All right, I want to get to more tactics. I also want to understand the big picture so that we can understand and create our own tactics. But first, you said something earlier when I said truism you said no, not just a truism but something that shows that you understand who they are. It takes people years to understand who they, themselves, are. It takes them years later to understand that there are people outside of them with their own feelings. It takes even longer to figure out what those fricking feelings are. Now if I’m standing one on one with a stranger and trying to persuade them or even not getting to meet them because I’m writing to them and trying to persuade on paper, how do I understand them and then express to them who they are in that snap second that I get to do that?
Ross: Now, this is a profoundly good question so let me answer it in three parts. Let’s get back to the example I used. You said, how do I use this to interview someone who maybe I need to really put on the spot, what would I do? In that case I would stop and think OK, what must be true about this person as far as their felt sense of safety or comfort with what I’m going to ask them to do? I have a series of questions. What must be true about this person, as far as their felt sense of safety or comfort or willingness with what I’m going to ask them to do or what I’m going to ask them? You used the example of someone who maybe feels like they’re going to be on the spot or you’re going to ask a tough question. Naturally I would think he, or she, is going to feel put on the spot or pressured. You understand?
Once I know OK, this is what they’re likely to feel I’m going to pace that. I’m going to say you know, I know it’s very common in these kinds of situations to maybe feel like you’re put on the spot. Like someone’s trying to trip you up or make you break down and I want to let you know that feels very deeply uncomfortable for me too. You understand? You express an understanding.
This is what I also teach guys. If a woman appears to be resistance or not interested you’ve got to ask yourself what’s the real emotional need being expressed? What is the actual underlying emotional need? In this case, the case you offered me, I know the guy or girl doesn’t want to feel trapped or put on the spot, right? I’m going to pace that by saying I know it’s very common in these situations to feel like they’re trying to trip me up or to feel like you want to kind of crawl into that shell and protect yourself. I get it, I’ve been in those situations. Notice my facial expression. And it sucks. I’m feeling that. As I say it, I get some of that feeling for myself. Because we’ve all had those experiences.
Andrew: I see. If I were writing a sales letter online I might want to express what I imagine the other person is feeling. Which is I know that buying online is a scary proposition where you’re about to give a credit card number to a stranger you’ve never met before. And express those feelings?
Ross: Yeah, for sure but I think you have a much, much more difficult task first. Which is convincing them even to pay attention to you and give you a minute in the first place.
Andrew: First get them to pay attention and at some point express how they feel about that. Ross, one of the things that I wonder is if I express to them the worries that they have, do I heighten those worries in their mind? If I say you must be scared…
Ross: No, no because you’re only using it as a place to push off of. If you left it there, yes but what you’re doing there is just showing that you understand. You’re just demonstrating understanding.
Here’s the key principle. I teach from principles and concepts first. I do give direct expression, but here’s the principle. People, generally speaking, will not accept that you’re an authority on where they should go. Unless they first see that you’re an authority on where they’re at. That could be anything, it could be you’re an authority on what they’re feeling in that moment. Their sense of comfort or discomfort about the situation. It could be you express you’re an authority on their existential situation. Like wow, I know it’s really tough right now. Money is hard to come by and I really get it.
Or it could be you just demonstrate you understand that they’re thinking about something. Years ago I picked up a very lovely young lady. She was studying and you could see her going… I said excuse me, can I ask you a favor? Can you please try not to think so loudly? I’ve got something very important to read here and you’re a loud thinker and it’s really disrupting me. She cracked up laughing. Then I turned around a minute later and said hey, I asked you to keep a lid on that thinking. It’s too loud. I was actually demonstrating that I understood that she was thinking really hard, in a funny way, so that got her attention.
I want you to get the principle, Andrew. I’ll unpack the specifics for you as much as you need.
Andrew: But you’re right, we should step back and understand the main idea here.
Ross: The principle is if you demonstrate that you’re an authority, meaning you have understanding of their world. Sometimes you do it by expressing a truism. Other times you’re just vague. Sometimes you express a truism. Say, listen, I know sometimes in these situations it can feel sometimes like you’re being put on the spot. Like someone’s just trying to trip you up and trick you and I hate that. I’ve been in those situations and it sucks. You can express a truism, right?
And you can just be vague and say as we’re speaking today and I’m interviewing you I just want to let you know that it’s always my pleasure to give people a platform in such a way that they feel really, really great about the opportunity to express themselves. Speak your truth so you will be heard. Hear the command, speak your truth. You can be vague. You can use a truism, you can be vague. Or both, either will work.
Andrew: All right, earlier you said that in order to really use the tactics and create our own tactics, and even remember the tactics that you’re going to hear in this program, we should understand the bigger picture. What is that bigger understanding that we need to have in order to activate everything else?
Ross: One of the reasons I call it mind frame persuasion is because you have to consider the frame of mind that your prospect or audience is in. What you are working with. If you are going to move people you have to start with where they’re at. You can’t assume. You have to start where they’re at.
People have always been suspicious of any kind of sale. Let’s make that clear. People either don’t trust you or they don’t trust that any solution is possible or they don’t trust that they can implement solution. That’s always been there.
In addition today people are running in place just as hard as they can just to stay in one place. They are distracted. They are numbed out. But here is the real thing. If you want people to part with money you have to understand. Now people have a legitimate, reasonable, reality based mistrust and confusion around any kind of financial decision.
Think about this.
People no longer know if they are making a good financial decision or not. Because things that used to make sense don’t.
My sister was a multi-millionaire in real estate. Had millions of dollars in equity. It’s disappeared. What used to be sound, good solid business decision and investment is no longer. It’s gone. That foundation. Everyone used to think own a home. It’s been rocked to the core.
I’m serious about this. Retirement funds. People’s pension funds have been devastated by having been invested in this. Bad financial derivatives. Right? My father used to say, put away for your retirement. You will be lucky. And buy your self a home.
Those things don’t make sense any more. I’m serious about this. Ask how many people are under water on their homes. Or owe more money than they are worth. People no longer trust that there are any good decisions to be made when it comes to money. I’m not talking about five bucks or ten bucks. You understand what I’m saying?
Ross: Let me illustrate this with a story. By the way that’s a great technique to illustrate things with a story. This is a true story.
Andrew: Before you get in to that story. You just said do you understand what I’m saying. I nodded and I said yes. In preparation for this interview I heard an interview that you did with someone else and you asked that same question multiple times and he said, yes I do. Why do you do that?
Ross: To make sure you do understand.
Andrew: You’re just checking in to make sure I understand.
Ross: Honestly I’m checking in. It gives the illusion of participation. That you are co-creating this with me. Again, remember two tracks? I’m always in at least two tracks. One is to make sure that you are following. And second is to give you the illusion that you are co-creating this and participating with me.
Andrew: This was Joe College [SP]. That’s pretty much his only input in the interview. You took it away. You said, do you understand? He said, yes I do. Of course it makes sense. Then you went back to your story.
Ross: As a teacher. I’ve been teaching for 23 years. When I say does that make sense I’m looking for any kind of incongruity. If people go, yeah, than I know there is someone in the audience I need to bring up to speed.
Andrew: I see. OK.
Ross: I’m sorry that got me off the track.
Andrew: I know and I probably made you forget your story.
Ross: No. So, 2007 my accountant says, hey you still have time to open an IRA or 401k and get a tax deduction. Go do it. So I go in to my bank Washington Mutual. Just for those who don’t know, Washington Mutual was a huge bank. It went under. In a weekend. It was bought out by Chase.
I went in to my trusted bank, Washington Mutual. The finance service officer says, well what are you (?).
Andrew: I’m sorry? You went in to his office and you said what?
Ross: I said I want to open up something. A 401k. He said what level of risk do you want? I said super conservative. He said I got just the right thing here. I got a (?) called AIG. For those of you who don’t know AIG went belly up. It had to be rescued with a hundred, two hundred billion bail out.
I said AIG, tell me about them. What are they like? I’m not making this up. He said they got assets like you won’t believe. Well, that turned out to be prescient more but true because they were invested in all this bad paper. Financial derivatives and collateralized debt obligations and they went belly up.
I remember thinking when I heard Washington Mutual was closing. Oh my god how do I get my money? Do you understand what I’m saying? It was a real panic. So now no one trusts their institutions.
No one knows if an investment or a financial decision is even a good one any more. So you really have to understand. In addition to the normal levels of skepticism there is an undercurrent of helplessness now. You know the experiments with learned helplessness with dogs. They took a dog and electrified the floor but the dog knew if he jumped in to the other side of the cage he would be safe. Then they took another dog and he never knew whether or not he was going to (?) in work or not. But he just huddled in a corner.
Intense emotionally and psychologically, people nowadays are sort of huddled in that corner. It may be a subtle huddle but it’s true. They don’t know who to trust anymore, and they don’t k now if they can trust their own decisions. That also provides an opportunity. It means that if you are an authority, if you generally do know what you’re talking about, and you can convey that in little incremental pieces. And make sure people are asking for more as you convey it, not overwhelming them. If you can convey that you are an authority in little incremental pieces, and periodically check in to see if they’re following. Then you have an opportunity to be a voice of reason, a voice of trust unlike anyone else out there. You’ll wipe your competition away.
Andrew: I see. Now we’ve got this opportunity thought. Why is it called mind frame? I understand the opportunity from those stories. What I don’t understand is the big picture of understanding of how I can create these tactics.
Ross: Here’s the big picture. I say one of the key principles of persuasion that I teach people is that if you want someone to do something just for a moment, step back away from the behavior you want them to do. Whether it’s buy the car, go out on the date, whatever it is, step away from that and ask yourself what is the state of mind? What are the emotional states and the state of mind that I want this person in where it would be much more natural for them to just give me that behavior (?). You understand what I’m saying.
For example, rather than thinking of how can I get this person to buy my course. Think what states of mind would make it more likely that first of all the people will (?) person they should listen to. What frame of mind do I want the audience in when they listen to me? Do I want them to be distracted looking at their watches? Do I want them to be paying attention (?) who is this mother… Because (?) your message, whatever it is, is going to be filtered through their frame of mind. Their frame of mind is their beliefs, their attitudes, their emotions.
We can think of frame of mind in metaphor. I don’t mean this literally, Andrew. But as a metaphor we can consider peoples frames of mind as something that’s projected (?) literally like a filter they’re holding out. And they’re looking at everything through that. Think of a frame of mind as a mood, that could be a frame of mind. My mother, may she rest in peace, once said if you dip your sunglasses in sh** even the roses will look brown. My mother understood that (?). I had a (?) Yiddish who understood wisdom in her own way. Before we think what I want this person to do we want know what frame of mind do we want them to enter into (?) through.
What states do I want them in? Do I want them in a state of mistrust, skepticism, (?). Where do I want them coming in thinking? Wow, this is really interesting. The very act of listening to this person whether I’ll buy or not is worthwhile. Let me unpack it if I can. When I get up to people, whether it’s about seduction or persuasion. I say listen, some of what I’m going say tonight is going to make total sense to you. It’s going to be so close to what you already (?) wow, that makes perfect sense. But some of what I’m going to say is going to say is going to seem just a little bit out there but not very much. You’re going to too, OK.
This is a little bit far our there but not too much. I can see how it might work it’s going to go do that. But , some of what I’m going to say is going to seem so fruity, so out t here so utterly nuts, you’re going to go now way, this is nuts, I’m not listening any more. Now I want to challenge you. I want to challenge you, when you hear the stuff that seems really out there, that’s the stuff I want to challenge you to pay even closer attention to and here’s why. It’s the stuff that sounds (?) so far away. So differently from what you’re used to doing that has the most potential leverage to give you the results so much better than (?) use to having and enjoying.
So I want to encourage you to when you encounter stuff from what I’m saying feels totally bizarre. Challenge yourself to root in and pay even more attention, because that’s where the real leverage is. Now what did I just do. I inoculated my audience. I thought, what are the three possible responses they can have to me. They’re either going to go I already knew this, I mostly know it, or wow this seems (?). What I’ve done is, in effect, set up all the responses they’re going to have. What you are asking yourself is, “Who the hell is this guy, and why should I listen to him,” and if you are not asking that, you ought to, so let me tell you who I am and why you should listen to me. If I think, “What are the questions in the audience’s mind that are going to establish whether they are going to listen or not?” because I could be the slickest presenter. I could have all my commands down. I could be as if butter does not melt in my mouth, but Andrew, if they are like this the minute I start speaking, it does not matter. It is not going in.
Andrew: Ross, I wrote a note so I could come back and ask you a follow-up question on that, but I do not want to miss what you said a moment ago, which is you understood the three possible reactions they are going to have to your message, and you address them–the two positive ones–and the one negative, you especially address, and you said, “Here is how I can turn that negative into even more attention, even more willingness to follow.” What about us?
I am thinking about the person who is listening to me, and I am thinking, “He is going to pitch someone on a business deal or on a sale.” The person who he is pitching is going to have two reactions. Either, “Yes, I want what you are offering me. Yes I want one of the points that you are offering me,” or, “No, I do not. That does not make sense to me.” Now, with that understanding, how do they counter the, “No, I do not,” response?
Ross: You need to back up a bit.
Ross: Before you get there, you need to draw an even larger picture around it. The larger picture you want to present is, “How do I present this in such a way where it is not viewed as a sale: where the very activity of listening to me is something that they do as valuable and worth their time whether they buy from me or not?” and, “How do I present it in such a way where they, rather than feeling I am selling them, they perceive they are being led on an interesting journey by someone who is worth listening to?
How do I set that up?” because remember–I am going to make this very clear–let me use another metaphor I drew. I do not care what you show me through my windshield. If my windshield is covered with dirt and grime and crap, I will not be able to see it, so we always want to think, “What frame of mind do we want the person in as they first begin to receive our message?” and, “How do we want them to think about the ongoing activity?” Do we want them to think that it is a sale?
Do we want them to think it is a presentation, or do we want to preset their mind to think of it as an exploration, a learning or a discovery, because people have a lot more positive association for the words “discover” and “learn.” There are some words in my course. I call them “along” or “join” words. I call them “valuable activity” words. Examples are “discover,” “uncover,” “explore” and “learn,” so while I am saying these words: “discover,” “uncover,” “explore” and “learn,” when you think about them, these words, which by the way, are very vague–I am not saying what we are going to explore–these words have a very positive charge to them. Think about that. True?
Andrew: Absolutely. I have to come back. I am writing notes while you are talking here so I can come back and ask you about everything.
Ross: I apologize.
Andrew: This is fantastic. Do not apologize. This is good. I love this stuff. I should be thanking you every time we get one of these nuggets out there, but instead I am writing it down so I could come back and ask you a couple of questions.
Ross: Well, here is the thing I want you to know. I have a challenge as a teacher. I am so passionate about this and I have studied it for so long that often one thing I give could be the subject of a two-hour course, but I do not think that way. I just want to give everything I have. I probably would be more viable. It is just so exciting to me. I cannot keep it at one little thing. I have to give everything I have.
Andrew: I know, and for me too, as an interviewer, we only have so much time in this interview that I cannot recreate everything that you have on mindframepersuasion.com.
Andrew: I have to trust that the audience can go and get the rest out there, and not try to follow up on every detail, but I cannot help it.
Ross: OK. We can do longer if you want. I love this. This is great.
Andrew: Here is what I love about that: I love these ideas. You could see this, so here is something that I realized as you were talking. I do not want them thinking in a yes-or-no, binary way about my presentation if I am trying to sell them on something. I want them to co-create the proposal with me so then I have buy-in.
Andrew: Instead of saying, “Look, you are going to want to buy from me or you are not,” or, “You are going to believe me or you are not,” I should say, “Look, we are going to have this conversation and you could have one of two reactions. You could either stand back and say, ‘Andrew is trying to sell me something,’ and if you disagree, you walk away from what I am trying to sell you, if that is your point of view, or you can say, ‘We have an opportunity here to co-create something, and if Andrew says something that I disagree with, I am going to step in there and build it with him and change the deal.'”
Ross: I would do that, but here is the thing.
Ross: The tactic I gave you is good for addressing large groups of people. I would not use that for one person.
Ross: If it is one-on-one, I would not say, “Listen, here are the certain responses.” I would not do it that way, but when I am in front of a large group of people, I am pacing the different responses that everyone should have in the audience. One-on-one I wouldn’t even bring up the possibility of something negative.
Andrew: Oh, why not?
Ross: Because it’s just not useful, and one-on-one I would say something (?). I’d say, look, before we get started today in exploring whatever we can create together, I just want to let you know that from time to time you may find that you have questions about what it is I’m presenting. I’m not sure exactly if you follow along what’s really going to tickle your imagination, what’s going to most come forward in your mind that you find most interesting, but I want to let you know.
Please feel free at any time to stop us with good questions because I think asking questions is one way to know that you’re making a good investment of your time and energy as you pay attention to me today, you understand?
Ross: It’s just like that.
Andrew: All right.
Ross: I’m also using a lot of thing. I’m also using presuppositions and all sorts of other little tools. It’s sort of dazzling when I do it. You have to learn one tool at a time.
Andrew: It’s kind of intimidating, too. All right.
Ross: No. Let me address that.
Andrew: Go ahead.
Ross: It’s only intimidating if you think about it as an adult. If you think about it in the linear, one step at a time adult way, yes, it’s intimidating. But also, think about this. As a child, you learn to write. There was a time where you had to form each letter of the alphabet, and it was a little bit difficult to the task. B, is it a backwards B? Is D a backwards B? And then, you had to learn the difference between small letters and capital letters. And then, you had to learn between print and script.
You don’t even know the process by which you learned to recognize and form letters the right way. At some point your mind just put it all together. That’s unconscious learning. So, you can also learn unconsciously, and there’s stuff that you don’t even know that you know, but you already know it.
Andrew: I see. Instead of saying, hey, how do I take this one step and make sure that I get the other, and do I have to get them all choreographed perfectly, you’re saying just trust your subconscious mind is picking up a lot of these tactics, and you’ll (?).
Ross: (?) You have understanding and you (?), but then you need to go out there and sooner or later it gets put together. We don’t the mystery by which our synapses make these new connections and understand that this is powerful and realize, yes, you’re already learning. Whether you realize it or not, it’s happening, but one of the by-products, again of this technology is that you can learn it much easier than you think.
Andrew: All right. Another thing that wrote down that you said earlier is well, most speakers . . . Well, I keep watching speakers because I want to learn how to make my courses, my interviews more interesting, and I see that a lot of speakers will stand up and they’ll say, I am the guy who did this, and they’ll go through their bio and no one cares.
The way you did it was you introduced it by saying, I bet you’re wondering who is this guy who’s about to do whatever, and then you gave your bio. How did you set me up to be more interested in your bio than most other people?
Ross: I didn’t actually, really talk bout my bio. I just gave some vague reasons why it’s appropriate and a benefit to listen. I never talked about it. Go back and watch it. I never said my bio, but because I was vague, you filled in that.
Andrew: So, how did you do that? Tell me how you did that?
Ross: I was vague.
Andrew: You were just being vague.
Ross: I said something along these lines. Actually, I’m not kidding. I swear to you. I dreamed it this morning what I was going to say. I’m really serious about this. I said something along the lines of, look, before we get going today, I just want to let you know it’s common when people listen really carefully to feel the state of absorption, to hang on every word. It’s almost as if you’ve been waiting to hear this truth.
It’s not because I’m going to say anything like, listen to me, feel that state of absorption and really want to learn from me. But rather, Andrew, I think it’s because, as I speak, my words so touch that place of learning and truth inside that people naturally and easily find themselves following along and eager to learn even more. So, let’s get going. That’s what I said or something very similar to that, I think.
Andrew: You also talked about valuable activity words. What are they?
Ross: Well, again, we want to set up a frame that we’re not selling. Instead, we want to set the frame that this is an exploration, that we’re discovering, that we’re uncovering something, you understand?
I would say something like, before we uncover the reasons why this new technology is so powerful, I just want to let you know that as you follow along with me today, it’s perfectly OK to raise your hand and ask questions because that’s part of your way of convincing yourself that, yes, this really is a good and valuable thing. I would phrase it like that.
I start by using presuppositions like before, for or while. Before we do x and I describe what x is going to be. Before we discover just how amazing this technology is and before you follow along with me and learn just how it can work for you I want to let you know that part of the process is you can feel free to ask questions about what fascinates you the most.
Andrew: You are presupposing that I am going to discover this and consider it to be that valuable.
Andrew: You’re planting that in my head.
Andrew: I see. I’m trying to come up with an example for my audience.
Ross: One thing we could do just as an experiment. We could experiment with having me punch up some of your copy. Putting in some of these things and just see as a test which does better. I already know which will do better.
Say something like, look before we go on this journey together and teaching you about start-up entrepreneurship I just want to let you know that as we discover and explore what this could mean for you I want your feedback. I want you to ask questions because that is a really good way to realize that this is of value and it is something that you are joining and creating with me. That’s what I would say. Do you understand?
Andrew: I see. Yes. I’m so glad by the way that I’ve got a transcript for this interview because I think it is going to be so interesting to go back and read it and unpack some of the words that you’ve put together here.
Ross: I want a transcript too because I often remember what I’ve said. I’m kidding.
Andrew: We’ll absolutely get you a transcript. I hope the whole audience knows that I got badgered during the early days so much for not having transcripts that I hired a company Speechpad to transcribe every single interview that is available.
Ross: Good idea.
Andrew: You and I talked before and you told me how when you used to go on TV you had these lines, these sound bytes pre-written and ready to go so that you would get attention. Do you do that in ordinary conversation? Ever since you told me that I thought I should have a few of those lines for when I give presentations or even for my interviews.
Ross: Let’s unpack what you just said. What do you mean by ordinary conversation? If I’m just talking to a friend, or?
Andrew I guess I shouldn’t say when you’re talking to a friend but when you’re teaching, when you’re selling one on one. When you’re persuading.
Ross: Yes. When I’m teaching, yes, absolutely.
Andrew: You have certain phrases. In fact can you tell the audience what you used to do when you would go on TV just so they have an understanding of the background?
Ross: You have to understand back in 1990 I’d written my first book about getting women. I would go on these TV talk shows. I knew I had to get attention so I would say things like, are you sure you want me to say this in this interview? For women getting laid was a choice. For men getting laid was a chore. If you don’t get laid I don’t get paid.
I would say things deliberately to provoke a reaction from the audience because I knew that the people in that studio audience were almost all female and most of the people watching at home were female. So I knew OK if I’m not interested in convincing them I just want to outrage them so much. The guys who were watching are going, wow, he must have something if they are getting so angry.
Andrew: OK. So you would have these sentences and yes I’m absolutely eager to hear that. I want to see the tactics as you use them and I want to understand the results through your own experiences.
Ross: That wasn’t the same thing at all.
Andrew: No, this is different. But the question that I have is if I were watching you on TV I would think boy this guy is just coming up with these lines on the spot. He’s so articulate. He’s so persuasive. He is so good at expressing ideas in a way that is memorable.
What I wouldn’t have understood at the time is he thought it through. He put a lot of homework in to his appearance. That’s why he comes across so well.
Ross: Yes and no.
Andrew: Do you do that in persuasion?
Ross: Let’s back up. Yes and no. Look at this as having the appropriate tools for the right level of your learning. In the beginning when you are first learning and familiarizing your self with what it feels and sounds like, you do have to have a lot memorized.
But then as you really get it. When you have a deep sense of what it feels like to be persuasive and what it feels like to have these understandings then a lot of the deliberateness drops away. Most of it drops away and it is just there unconsciously running in the background. Do you understand?
Ross: I really don’t have to think it through anymore. I just can feel it. In fact, here is the beautiful thing. When you get really good at it the other person actually helps you decide what you are going to say. They really do assist you in creating it. I’m very, very serious about this. But it takes a certain level of skill.
In the beginning you do have to practice. You do have to be deliberate. And let’s be clear. That can feel uncomfortable. In the beginning when you are trying out new behaviors that don’t feel comfortable.
The difference between people who make it and don’t make it are people who have a really good effective way to manage discomfort. That’s why I also teach the inner game of persuasion. Persuaders need to understand that any kind of selling no matter how good you are is always going to be chaotic and it’s always going to be something that can fall through at any moment. That’s how it works, knowing how to deal with this comfort, deal with stress. This is why I teach a meditative practice now as well. It’s very, very important. Otherwise, you cease to be a persuader and become a grabber.
Learning how to find comfort in your discomfort, knowing how to walk through the world and have a way of relating to discomfort where you don’t suppress it, but you don’t let the discomfort give you your sense of what things mean. Just because something feels (?) doesn’t mean you’re in actual danger. It isn’t a sign that you’re gong to fail in the world. It simply is a sign there’s something going (?) neurology.
So, I teach everyone, whether it’s my seduction clients or persuasion clients or anybody else. I teach them some basic meditation practices, and this is the beauty. The same meditation practice that enables you to be an effective persuader also pretty much kills the inner psychopath who would misuse these tools. You cannot daily practice of compassionate awareness to yourself and not have that.
Andrew: The practice what with yourself? We lost connection there.
Ross: Compassionate awareness of yourself. If you’re doing a daily practice of compassionate awareness, so you can deal with the discomfort of pushing your boundaries, then that’s going to also, by definition, move outward in how you relate to other people. It’s sort of my anti-sociopathy safe (?). It’s technology. I’m very serious about this.
Andrew: I get that completely.
Ross: The same thing that makes it much easier for people to engage with tools that are a little difficult to deal with that discomfort, also makes people much more compassionate and people are far less likely to misuse the stuff because it can be misused.
Andrew: You’re right. You’re saying that basically if we understand and expect our own flaws along the way, we’re going to that much more compassionate about other people’s issues.
Ross: I’m saying it’s different. No.
Andrew: OK. Then, I didn’t understand it.
Ross: Daily meditative practice where you bring in compassionate awareness to your discomfort, compassionate awareness to the fact that, OK, well, this feels a little scary. I’m nervous about this. Bringing that compassionate awareness as a practice for yourself, then it extends it outward into the world when you go out and deal with other people, you understand?
Ross: And the desire to exploit, to harm people drops away or is dramatically reduced. I’ve been doing this with my seduction clients because I have realized what I teach in that area is very powerful, there is the potential for abuse. So, I teach them to do this practice, and it actually really does some pretty amazing things. Just know that in addition to what you learned about persuading others, I do teach some technologies to handle your own moods because if you’re in any kind of selling, we both know things can fall through at any moment, you understand?
It can be an unpredictable way, and being able to handle that in a compassionate and smart way is really, really, really, really important. I’ll say something really quick, really quick. I’ve studied NLP and hypnosis for 23 years. They made clever, they made powerful, but they never made me one bit more compassionate or one bit more wise. That’s only happened as I began a meditation practice in 2006.
Understand, these tools are not designed to make you wise or compassionate. They’re not designed to make you clever or powerful. That’s why I built in these practices to make sure that that part of the equation gets balanced because I have to take responsibility for what I’m doing here. These tools really are powerful, and they can be misused.
Andrew: Can you just give me an example of another tool. Can you teach us one other one?
Andrew: I can see people writing down notes as they’re listening to us or highlighting if they’re reading the transcript and selecting things like the quotes, the frame of mind section of this interview. How about another one?
Ross: Sure. I have some words. I call them implied togetherness words. When you hear these words, it presupposes there’s some kind of relationship, right? Let’s, let us, we, why don’t we, let’s explore this together. I’m going to show you this, but let’s explore it. Let’s explore this. Let us assumes that there’s an us in the first place which assumes a relationship. Well, why don’t we, why don’t we explore this a little bit further, Andrew?
We’ve been talking today for an hour, but why don’t we explore this a little bit further in (?). You hear that? So, why don’t we, let’s, let us, you understand?
Andrew: I see. Right. It’s not now me preaching to you. It’s us together walking.
Ross: Why don’t we explore or we could say before we discover more together, now we’re using a presupposition of time, and we’re using the value activity word, and we’re using the implied togetherness word, together. Before we explore this together just a little bit further, Andrew, I just want to say how much I appreciate being able to teach these life changing tools to the people who are really listening and getting great value out of this interview.
I think the more you recognize you’re getting great value out of this the more you can realize that your decision to join with Mixergy is a really good one. Not only today, but, Andrew, I predict people could even imagine a time in the future, say, a year from now, still feeling really, really great about what they’ve learned from Mixergy and looking back at this moment as having been the start of that.
I just think it’s a wonderful thing that you present value not just for today, but value six months, a year, two years from now. I think that’s really wonderful. Now, what did I do there? I changed people’s sense of time. I pseudo-orient people in time. I get them to go out and imagine six months or a year of enjoying what I sold them, and looking back on this moment, this decision, as having been the start of it. You can pseudo-orient people in time.
It’s not enough to make people feel good about today. You can then actually take those good feelings, extend them into the future, and have them look back through a year of good feelings as already having made the decision to buy. This is very hypnotic. You know what I need help with in my business (?)? Andrew, I need help from someone who can say, “Ross, that one (?) you gave, let’s turn that into a module.” I’m going to help you (?) and turn that (?) into a week long course. Because I just lump it all into big one thing, because that’s how I learn.
Andrew: You know what? Actually, I’m going to suggest this.
Andrew: No intimidation, guys. If you have any interest in working with Ross. Ross, is there a way for them, if they are into this stuff and want to learn it by helping you teach it and assemble it in a way that you’d market online?
Ross: Yeah. Listen. If you’re someone out there who has experience with taking big pieces of things and turning them into smaller, consumable bites, email me, firstname.lastname@example.org. Also, let me just say, the Mind Frame Persuasion course is now up online. It’s completely available online, both as download and streaming. You can get instant access. Go to mindframepersuasion.com. If you enter in when you buy (?) Mixergy, your company . . .
Andrew: M-I-X-E-R-G-Y. Enter in that code when you sign up?
Ross: Yeah. You get 50% off the course.
Andrew: 50% off the course if they enter that. If they want more than what we were able to give them in this hour together.
Ross: Yeah. You have to do it within 24 hours. 24 hours of this interview airing. Do it within 24 hours. Go to mindframepersuasion.com. You get 50% off. Enter the code Mixergy when you buy. If you are interested in me coming and teaching your organization, if you want me to do a live presentation, or a series of seminars, or online trainings at your corporation, contact again email@example.com. I’ll talk to you about doing some (?) stuff if you’re out there listening.
Andrew: If they want to bring this into their organization and teach their people how to be persuasive, as you are.
Ross: Yeah. (?). Finally I want to read you something. I am doing this (?) seminar coming up in January and women come for free. If you’re open minded, I like having women in the audience. Contact me, firstname.lastname@example.org, subject “Want to come for free.” We’ll talk (?) what are guys learning? Maybe there’s something here he’s teaching. I want to know it and can I apply it to guys.
Andrew: You’re not intimidated to have a woman in the audience listen to you as you teach . . .
Ross: No, I love having them there. I always have (?) there.
Andrew: How to meet women.
Ross: No. I always have women there, because they actually wind up loving it. They want to give their input. They’re saying, “Yes, he’s saying the truth. I’ve been waiting for a guy to say this.” It’s actually quite fun.
Andrew: Cool. I’m going to give your website again in a moment, but I also want to say, if you’re a mixergy.com/premium member, there are tons of courses there for you. Apparently, people don’t understand that they get all the courses as part of Mixergy Premium. Ross, you’re a member. What do you think of the program?
Ross: Let me tell you what I think of the program.
Ross: I gave my login information to my operations manager, Adam, who runs it. We’re particularly studying the conversions. You did an interview with this guy from Re-edge . . .
Ross: How do you say the name of it? Re-edge?
Andrew: He says Reedge, but I pronounce it Re-edge, too.
Ross: That interview alone was worth $199. I paid my operations manager 25% above his normal fee to watch that and come up with some recommendations. Also, can I just say, you’ve got (?) some really hot chicks for interviews. Some real hotties.
Andrew: I do try to be balanced and have both men and women here, try to go international where possible, too. So you took that conversion course. I should do that too. You paid the guy who you work with to watch it and to come up with tactics for how you can implement it in your business.
Ross: Absolutely. I, not only paid him, I gave him 25%. I said, “Look, this (?) hours, I’ll give you 25% above your normal fee. Study this.” It’s really remarkable stuff. When you think about it, I used [??] went to some online companies that charge $800 a month that didn’t deliver any real value. They were awful. We won’t say what they are.
Andrew: All right. The website is this. Even if you’re not interested, and I think that most people in this audience are going to want much more, you’ve got to, at least go to mindframepersuasion.com and just see how Ross expresses himself online. The sales page on there is like a work of art. I had a guy on here who’s into copywriting. He said, one of things he did to make himself a better copywriter, is he just hand-wrote other peoples copy so he could really understand it.
Ross: Yeah. That’s true.
Andrew: If you guys want someone to use ideas to hand-write, go to that sales page. I’m going to tell you, you’re going to get an understanding of how expresses and persuades like you wouldn’t even get through this interview. I think we did a good job in this interview. Of course, if you want to take it to the next level and get even more information, mindframepersuasion. I’m a member. I urge you guys to check it out. Let’s talk about it. Actually, if you guys are members, email me so that we can talk about what we’re getting out this program so that we can learn together. Ross, thanks for doing this really, meaty-packed interview with me.
Ross: Thank you. I want to express my gratitude to the two creatures who make my life possible. Tabitha and (?). They’re off napping and it’s one in the afternoon here in LA.
Andrew: Apparently, they’re camera people too. I would’ve loved to have seen them. They’re good at working the camera but not being on camera (?).
Ross: They’re taking their post-noon, late-noon nap time. (?)
Andrew: Of course, we’re talking about your cats. Where in the country are you?
Ross: I’m in Marina del Rey, California. Interestingly enough, not more than 500 feet from where I’m sitting, we have boat docks, where there’s a colony of California sea lions. If I open my balcony door, I can hear them barking. I’m not kidding.
Ross: I can hear them (?). You’re not allowed to touch them or harm them in any way. It doesn’t bother me, but the boat owners go crazy. They can’t get rid of them.
Andrew: It’s a great part of the country. Ross, thanks for doing this interview. Of course, the website is mindframepersuasion.com. Thank you all for watching. Bye.
Ross: Bye, now.