Andrew: Hey there, Freedom Fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart and the owner of this very furrowed brow. I like to take my work very seriously. I don’t care how many other interviewers are out there just hanging out on camera, and they all take a relaxed attitude with interviewing. No, for me, it is serious business because you’re serious business, you, my listener. I need you to do well. Otherwise, I feel like a failure here, and I will not allow myself to feel like a failure or be a failure. We’re going to get you somewhere here with these interviews.
All right, and next time you hear someone talk about Uber, I want you to tell them about this interview because you’re about to meet an Uber driver who does about a quarter million dollars in sales. But the bulk of his money doesn’t come from driving, it comes from the jewelry that he sells and his passengers buy. Gavin Escolar is a hustler obviously and someone you should learn from obviously or else he wouldn’t be here. He’s also an Uber driver and a jewelry maker, whose work you can see if he picks you up in his car.
Or, if you don’t want to wait for him to pick you up, you can go to his personal website, GavinEscolar.com. His stuff is beautiful. I urge you to actually also click also on his social media profiles on that page because if you go to his Instagram, you’ll see all these beautiful photos. If you go to Facebook, you can stay in touch with him. And this interview is sponsored by Toptal. Later on, I’ll tell you why this could be the very last sponsorship message you’ll ever hear from Toptal and a little secret that I can tell you because the founder was over at my house. But first, I’ve got to meet Gavin. Gavin, welcome to Mixergy.
Gavin: Thank you for having me.
Andrew: Gavin, look. I’m looking over your shoulder because I’m that kind of a person. I love the look of this place that you’re in. I love the look of the sweater that you have, the jacket underneath it, the jewelry that you make. You’re really a person who pays attention to detail and cares about art in his craft. Isn’t it a little humiliating to drive people around in an Uber car and just stand outside and pick them up and have them tell you where to go when you’re an artist who has this vision for his life?
Gavin: Actually it’s not even humiliating. I find it to be very encouraging and empowering because I get to meet the most interesting people in an Uber car that I would have never met if I don’t have Uber as a platform for me to use. Moreover, sometimes a lot of people look at me, they’re like, “Whoa, what’s going on?” But other times, they usually ask questions or what I’m wearing. Especially when it comes to my jewelry. They usually ask me questions and all that good stuff. So, it’s a good introduction point on what I am, what I represent.
Andrew: All right, let me ask you this other question. And I’m going to have follow-up questions to what you just said. I’m obviously paying attention. The other thing I hate about interviewers is they just ask their questions and they have no follow-up because they have no attention to what the other person has said. I paid attention. I’ve got to know, I’m going to follow-up. But there’s something else that’s burning me here. If I sit in an Uber car, I just want to get to my destination, look at my phone maybe, or just tune out the world. Do I need a driver like you, Gavin, as much as I like you and I’m about to spend an hour with you, do I need you to tell me about your jewelry and sell me? Is that what you do?
Gavin: I don’t sell my jewelry at all. I just make my pieces actually show for themselves. So, if you don’t want to talk to me, I don’t want to talk to you about my jewelry too as well. But if you’ve noticed how my pieces are or how I display them, then it’s a topic of conversation that I could start on to. And usually I do make a sale, but most of the time, I get a lot of follow-ups. I get referrals from a lot of Uber passengers who are interested in my jewelry
Andrew: I see. And that’s something that I want to learn from you. You’re saying you don’t start selling people. It’s only when they ask you something that you start telling them about what you’re doing. It’s only when they invite the conversation. I want to learn from you what you do. And we’ll get to it later on in the interview. I want to learn from you what you do that gets potential customers, who have no interest in buying to start a conversation with you and eventually either buy or refer their friends to you. That’s something that I think we, as an audience, we as people who are here to spend an hour with you can you learn from you. Let me just get a sense of who you are. You’re a guy who grew up with a family of gemstones, right?
Gavin: Correct.
Andrew: What does that mean?
Gavin: I’m sorry?
Andrew: What does that mean that you grew up to a dad who was in the gemstone business?
Gavin: Ever since I was a kid, I’ve been playing around with gemstones. I know what a diamond should look like. I know what a ruby should look like, an emerald, and all of that good stuff. And I just grew up right beside my dad’s hip. And every time he would do business, here I am fondling away with his gemstones and stuff. And from there, I just got my passion from it. Between that one and the watercolor renderings that I would see in his office being done by different artists, I started drawing. And that’s the first thing that I started copying, essentially. And from there, I built my own designs from that as my inspiration.
Andrew: Gavin, I see how his designs, his artwork spoke to something that is innately you. You are an artist. I can see it in every fiber of your being. The part that’s surprising to me is that you’re not just an artist. You’re a salesperson, too, something that many people just are repulsed by. Do you remember some time growing up where you saw your dad make a sale or someone else make a sale that you said, maybe not consciously, but you filed it away and that’s what made you who you are. Do you have an example of a sale?
Gavin: Yes. The thing is that I was taught not to sell. I was taught just to present your best, and that if somebody likes it, they would purchase it.
Andrew: So, how did your dad do that? Or what did you say? What were you going to say?
Gavin: For my dad, he’s like, “This is who we are. Just present it as the most honest way possible of who you are, and there is somebody there who wants to buy your piece.” For example, let’s figuratively say that there’s a diamond. A one-carat diamond ranges from . . . There’s an infinite combination of prices over there. It’s how you trust that person that you want to do a sale with and how you want to be with that person on how that person wants to leave an impression towards you that if you want to keep that . . .
Andrew: What did your dad do? He had a store that people would come into?
Gavin: No. He doesn’t have a store. What we did is we were the ones who was actually furnishing the stores with gemstones.
Andrew: So, you’d walk into stores and say, “Here’s what I have,” and just wait for them to be interested or not.
Gavin: Exactly.
Andrew: Doesn’t that make him someone who’s . . . So, actually, I like that attitude. The thing that I would worry if I were trying that kind of approach is, “You know what? I don’t want to hope that someone’s interested in my work. I want to do something about it. I spend so much time creating or procuring all these gemstones. I want the person who’s listening to have the best shot at buying possible. And that means that I have to open my mouth and persuade them to pay attention,” and so on. Isn’t it more of a passive approach to sales, too passive?
Gavin: It’s not necessarily for me it’s a more passive approach. I’m more aggressive when it comes to actually providing the best piece or best creation that I have. And what my hopes and my dreams are, what my intent is for that piece to actually speak to the people.
Andrew: I see. And, I guess, we’re fast-forwarding it a little bit to where you are today. You’re saying, “Look, if I put this piece in my vehicle, and nobody pays attention to it, that gives me feedback about what I see.” Okay. And your salesmanship doesn’t go to opening your mouth and flapping your gums the way mine does frankly, but it goes to you saying, “How do I make this piece of jewelry stand out more in the car or present a piece of jewelry that will catch people’s attention?
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: Got it. All right.
Gavin: Because you don’t want to be the one who’s blabbering my mouth all the time. They would notice when you hop in the car and you see a diamond earring that’s hanging up on my dashboard. The first thing that they’re going to say, “Oh, that’s beautiful,” or sometimes I hear crickets in some of the pieces that I display over there.
Andrew: What’s one that got you crickets that you displayed and nobody asked you anything and you said, “Hey, I think I need an adjustment.”
Gavin: Yeah, I had an emerald bracelet that I was displaying and I displayed it for a whole week, and nobody thought about it or whatever. So then, the next day, I re-worked it. I displayed it, and then I got a sale out of that.
Andrew: The exact same bracelet re-worked got people, the next day, someone to pay attention and buy it. What did you do that added to get people to pay attention?
Gavin: It’s the packaging.
Andrew: What’s the packaging?
Gavin: Basically just the way I put the bracelet on the different part of the car.
Andrew: Oh, I see. So, it’s not that you changed the bracelet, you just said, “Hey, this place where I’m putting it is just not drawing attention?”
Gavin: Yeah. So, I’m still learning on where to put some things in the car, what not to put some things in the car.
Andrew: What’s the before and after on the bracelet? Where did you keep it before and where did you move it that suddenly got attention?
Gavin: Before, I was putting on the passenger side of the car. And, then, I put it right on the rear view mirror. I made it hang. So, the light actually went in there and made it more brilliant.
Andrew: And it was on your side of the car, where people are likely to pay attention to you. You’re driver, got it. Even if they don’t want to talk, there’s at least looking over to see, “Is this guy about to talk to me?” And that’s when they might notice this bracelet.
Gavin: Yes. So when they look at it, they’re like, “Oh, what is that green thing hanging over there?” “Oh, yeah, it’s a bracelet that I made.” They’re like, “Oh, you’re a jewelry artist?” And it’s like, “Yeah, I’m a jewelry designer. I made this bracelet and stuff.” And then that’s where I start the conversation.
Andrew: You still are an artist, you started building your career as an artist. Then, your mom got sick, and what happened to your career trajectory after your mom got sick?
Gavin: Well, my mom has a small limo company of one car. And she’s the only one who’s driving herself. And I was actually in Asia at that time, building my artistic career by showing it to a couple of galleries in Hong Kong and the Philippines. And, then, when my mom told me that she can’t even drive, which is her only way for her to make money, I came back over here to San Francisco and I helped her out by driving for her and stuff. It was, at first, somewhat depressing because I had shows lined up in Asia for the next year. And then, I had to cancel all of that in order for me to be with my mom. And when I saw that I was driving, then I saw this opportunity.
Andrew: I see. When you say you had shows, what kind of shows did you have there?
Gavin: Art shows for galleries and stuff. A lot of galleries represents my work.
Andrew: You’re much nicer than I am, I have to admit. I don’t know that I would fly back from my mom. I might FaceTime her more often, but that’s it.
Gavin: There’s only one.
Andrew: There’s only one. I see. So you were able to help out. What happened with your mom?
Gavin: Right now, my mom is better. She is now helping me out with my Uber business because she’s the one who actually introduced me to Uber. But, given the fact that there’s a generation gap, I basically saw what she’s doing and then I incorporated my own thing.
Andrew: The first time that you introduced your jewelry to your passengers, how did you do it?
Gavin: I started just wearing my jewelry.
Andrew: Just wearing it. Right now, I’ve noticed you have two bracelets on your left arm. I guess that’s your left, right?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: So that’s the thing that you would do. You just had it on and you hoped someone would talk about it? Or did you start a conversation?
Gavin: The funny part about it is that I get more of a reaction if they ask me rather than me telling them who I am. I get more of a negative reaction when I push myself, should I say. It’s fruitless for me to be tacky, should I say.
Andrew: Did you try doing it?
Gavin: Oh, I tried it.
Andrew: What happened to your ratings? I know how important those are.
Gavin: It went down fast. Super hard. It went down by 20% the first week. “You know what? I’m going to try this for a week. Because a lot of people, they’re like, “Oh, my goodness, I really love what you’re wearing,” and stuff like that. “Oh, yeah, I’m Gavin. I’m a jewelry designer, and here’s my card.” And that was very easy. But when people walk in, I’m just like, “Hey, I’m Gavin. I’m a jewelry designer,” and whatever. When I get that cool thing. And, then, “Let me give you my card.” Sometimes, they don’t even want to take my card.
Andrew: They just aren’t interested. Let me ask you something. You seem like a naturally social person. Were you always naturally social or are you just now, because we’re in an interview, you’re comfortable?
Gavin: No, I’m just very comfortable talking, should I say. It’s very easy for me to speak to people.
Andrew: Was it nerve-wracking at first when you knew someone was about to come in your car and you had an ulterior motive of telling them about your jewelry? Did you get as nervous as I would be?
Gavin: No.
Andrew: No? You just said, “You know what? I have an opportunity here. I’m going to take it”?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: What about when someone turned you down or gave you an obvious negative rating? Did that hurt your feelings, frankly?
Gavin: No, because you know what? You can’t please everyone.
Andrew: That’s a very psychologically correct way to think. But in the moment, aren’t you hurt? In the moment, aren’t you saying, “This guy just didn’t even hear me out. This woman doesn’t even like me. She thinks she’s better than me.” You didn’t go into any of that?
Gavin: No, because the thing is that in the next 5 or 10 minutes, I have another passenger.
Andrew: Oh, okay. So, that helps you just keep getting past . . .
Gavin: [inaudible 00:13:20]. If I have around 20 rides, and 1 of them is negative, and 19 of them is extremely positive, I think I made a pretty day out of that.
Andrew: I found that systems that allow you to or force you to keep working on what you’re trying to do, that force you to keep working on it are so helpful. Because same thing here for interviews. In the early days, if someone didn’t show up for an interview or wasn’t fully present in the interview or whatever, I would be hurt. I would say, “That person thinks that he is so much better than me. He thinks he’s an entrepreneur, and I’m just this little interviewer.
Then, I shouldn’t even be doing this. I should prove to everyone that I’m so much more than whatever it is that this person thought of me, or frankly whatever it is I imagine this person thought of me.” But because I had another interview scheduled for the next day, I’d have to snap out of it and get back into it.
Gavin: Yeah, you have to.
Andrew: You have to. It’s almost important. Everyone says, “If there’s something important for you to do, schedule it.” I think it’s even better to schedule it and, then schedule a few others after it and make sure that there’s someone else there, too, so that you have to show up. All right. So you had to show up when Uber app told you, “Hey, you’ve got another driver.”
Gavin: Correct. Another passenger, yes.
Andrew: All right. So, talking to people didn’t really help. Waiting for them to talk to you was the way that you decided to pursue this passion. You then said, “Hey, you know what? Wearing the bracelet on my wrist is not enough. I have to do something that gets people’s attention.” What’s the first thing that you did that maybe didn’t even work?
Gavin: Oh, the first thing that I did is I hung something on the rear view mirror, where you look over there. It’s like I always hung something over there, and it was actually one of the pieces that I had that I made. And it’s made out of two prescription lenses, and there’s a [landscape] inside of it. And from there, people were like, “Oh, that’s a really cool dreamcatcher.” I’m all like, “That’s really not a dreamcatcher.” I put something very eclectic, and, then, a lot of people tend to notice it. And, then, from there, that’s where I spark up the conversation.
Andrew: Okay. So, they would start saying it’s a dreamcatcher. I like, too, that you didn’t get insulted. “Hey, you know what these people who come into my car, philistines, they should not even look at my art.” No? You didn’t get to that point?
Gavin: No, no, because, yet again, because you know what? In the next 10 minutes, I have another one. It just rolls off your back. And some people can be negative. And you can’t help that. You’ll get one or two bad apples a day.
Andrew: Let me do a quick commercial break because now it’s important for me to talk about it. I said that Toptal, possibly this is their last sponsorship message because other sponsors heard that I was talking about Toptal. They said, “I want to buy what you’re doing for them, for Toptal,” and they booked months ahead. So this could be the end.
So, what is Toptal? If you don’t know by now, this is your last chance to know it and to write it down. Toptal is a company, it’s actually a network of top developers that, if you need a new developer, a new project, and your team doesn’t have any more room to work on your projects, or maybe you don’t even have a team, all you have to do is go to Toptal and tell them what language you want or what you need built. There’ll be a human being for you to talk to, not just a website. And they will find the perfect person for you.
Now, most people will just put out ads, they’ll do a lot of screening and they’ll take forever to find the right person. And maybe they will, maybe they won’t find the right person. Or they’ll go to a freelance site, they’ll put up an ad. They’ll see all the ratings. And maybe they’ll get the right person, or maybe the person they hire will just disappear without giving them their work. Toptal is that network of developers that’s been pre-screened, pre-vetted. That’s why they’re called Toptal. T-O-P T-A-L. “Top” as in top of the food chain. “Tal” as in talent. Top talent. Now, here’s something that you won’t know about by just looking at their website, but you will if you go to Toptal.com/Mixergy.
They even have a money-back guarantee. I’m whispering it because I don’t even know that we should be talking about it publicly, but the founder was at my house. We talked about it. They offer a money-back guarantee. What other developer will say, “Hey, you know what? If you don’t like my work, I’ll give you your money back.” Now, it’s not a money-back guarantee infinitely. You want to go over to their website and check it out to see exactly what it is and what it covers. But they do amazing work and they stand by it.
And so, I want you to write this down because I know at some point in the future you’re going to need it. Put it in your Evernote, write on . . . No, not on your wrist because you’re going to take a shower at some point. Right it down on your monitor, directly with a pen on your monitor. It’s that important. T-O-P-T-A-L.com.
And when you talk to them, tell them Mixergy sent you. When your friends talk to them, tell them Mixergy or Andrew Warner sent them. And they will not only take great care of you, like the friends of mine that they are, but they will also make sure that, if you’re not happy, they will make it right. I’ve never seen developers do this. Toptal.com. Your last chance to write it down. Don’t email . . . Actually do email my customer service, if you can’t remember it. But you’re better off just knowing it for yourself, so you can jump on it. T-O-P-T-A-L.com. And I’m so grateful to them for being a sponsor here, on Mixergy. Gavin, hey, as a salesperson, what do you think of the way that I just talked about Toptal.
Gavin: Pretty good.
Andrew: Really?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: How would you improve it?
Gavin: Well, the first thing that I would like to say, you need to emphasize the money-back guarantee of Toptal. That’s a really big element because you’re forced to pay some developers. And even if you’re not pleased, you need to emphasize that. That’s a really big thing.
Andrew: I see. That’s a good point. You know what actually? First of all, I should say that one of the reasons why I hesitated to do it is because I don’t want people to go to them and get free work and, then, someone saying, “You know what? I changed my mind. I’m going in a different direction,” or, “I’m not committed to this project.” So, I underplayed and maybe that’s why Toptal doesn’t put it up on their homepage. But you’re right. I should emphasize it. It’s a good point. It’s something very important for people to remember.
Gavin: And, I’m sorry, the money-back guarantee should have some form of constraints, should I say.
Andrew: Yes. It is for that initial payment that you give them, so you can’t just come back and say, “I want this whole project done,” and then cancel and change your mind, get your money back. Let me tell you something else that I noticed. As I was saying the sponsorship message, I looked at you. And for a moment there it seemed like you were taking your jacket off. And in my head, I said, “Oh, he doesn’t care about this ad. I didn’t do this right.” And another time, you were looking at me, and I said, “Oh, maybe this is okay.” And then another time, you were looking down. I don’t even know that you noticed it. And frankly, for a second, I said, “Oh, maybe I lost him. Maybe I shouldn’t be reading the ad while he’s there listening.
All this psychological stuff, in my case, it didn’t today mess with my delivery, but it could. When you’re watching your passenger listen to your message, does any of that go through your head?
Gavin: Actually surprisingly enough I completely blank it out because I need to be focused on driving them their destination.
Andrew: So is it a learned experience? For me, it was learned.
Gavin: For me, it’s more so that my jewelry needs to speak for themselves. So, when I hand it to them, if they hand it back to me in two minutes, that’s not a sale. They’re not into it. But once they start trying it on, the work and the quality of the piece that I made speaks for itself in order for it to translate to a sale. I cannot sell anything that I’m not completely confident I’m handing it back to my clients and letting them touch it.
Andrew: I see. So, for you, it’s, “I just have to show it to them. I’m not here to sell it.” But there is a little bit of salesmanship. You’re paying attention. There was one person who asked you about your sunglasses, you knew to show them about your sunglasses. You knew not to just divert him to something else. But if he lost interest, you would’ve known, “Hey, you know what? I’m noticing that he’s not interested in sunglasses anymore, but he does have a girlfriend or something.”
Gavin: Yes. He does have a girlfriend. “Let me give you my card. My portfolio is on my website. And I have one of my card, too. Take a look. Maybe because at first, at first glance, you might not be interested in my sunglasses anymore, but you might be interested on something else.”
Andrew: Okay, so let’s bring it back to my audience. Let’s suppose there is someone out there who wants to make a sale, wants to make some calls actually to make a sale without being pushy. How would they start the conversation, introduce their work, do you think, without hitting the potential customer over the head with it and turning them off?
Gavin: The first thing that I always do is I look for the customer’s needs. Then, I adjust my sales pitch or my presentation for that matter for that particular client.
Andrew: So, how do you ask them questions about their needs without saying, “Hey, who in your family needs new sunglasses? Who in your family needs a new bracelet?”
Gavin: Okay. So, when they’re interested about me and they’re interested about my portfolio, the first thing that I ask them, “What is your favorite part in my portfolio?” So, I have everything from rings to boxes to sunglasses to different kinds of jewelry. And, then, from there, we can talk about a smaller subset of pieces.
Andrew: That’s interesting. So, if I were a consultant, for example, and I wanted to sell my consulting services, I might lead people to look at a webpage with all my different services, and then ask them, “Which is your favorite one? What’s the one that seems most relevant to your business?” Got it. So it’s not, “Hey, which one would you want to buy?” it’s, “Which of these packages is interesting?”
Gavin: Yeah, what is the most interesting to you because if you keep on blabbing yourself, people don’t like to listen about people talking about themselves. They want to know what is interesting to them. So, if that person is not interested in any of my pieces in my catalog, then that’s gone. There’s another person 10 minutes away.
Andrew: So, before we started, I told you how much I loved, when I looked at your Instagram, that there was a bracelet right at the top that has, I guess it’s crystals embedded into it all over it, right? So, if I would’ve mentioned that, what do you do with that? How do you now direct me towards something that you could sell?
Gavin: Okay, I’ll be like, “Do you like this? I cannot make this exactly the same, but I can measure you and make a one-of-a-kind piece just for you.”
Andrew: I see. I say, “You know what? I was just kind of interested in it. Looks really nice. I don’t really need a bracelet right now.”
Gavin: “Okay. But here’s my card. If you’re ever interested, let me know.”
Andrew: That’s it. You don’t even shift to, “Here’s another thing that I think you might be interested in”?
Gavin: No, because I have another passenger that’s 10 minutes away who might be interested [inaudible 00:23:55].
Andrew: Oh, that’s interesting. So, that’s the benefit of also having a really good pipeline with lots of people coming in.
Gavin: Exactly.
Andrew: Okay. All right. So, you do that, you give them a business card. How many of your sales come from the website afterwards from people just clicking around the way I am right now as we’re talking?
Gavin: I usually get actually surprisingly enough, every time I give out around 20 business cards, I would 1 live sale from that. So, that’s for my online sales, that’s not including for the commissioned works that I do.
Andrew: I see. So, if you just hand out your card, what is it 20 times, you know you’re going to get a sale without even pushing, without saying any more than, “Hey, if you like my work, go see it.”
Gavin: Yeah. “This is my work. Go see it. This is what I do. I don’t need to shove it down your mouth. Here it is. If you want it, let me know.”
Andrew: All right. One of the things that you learned was to have your full portfolio with you, right? What does that mean to have a full portfolio? How do you carry it? What’s included?
Gavin: It’s a small book, around 20 images of different parts, a full scope of my work. And, then, from there, once I ask what they’re interested in, then I have an electronic device or a tablet that has a subset of that with more of that same thing. So, for example, if you’re interested in the diamond ring, I have six other diamond rings that I have done before. But I know exactly what you’re looking for at that time already.
Andrew: I see. So, you don’t have to have every single piece, you just have a sample of it by having it there. All right. So, here’s the process as I understand it. You have some kind of bling, something that gets people’s attention. A light that shines on a piece of jewelry, a way for you to wear it, a positioning in the vehicle so they notice it. They start asking you about it, you tell them how they could get it if they like it because you’re the artist, you’ve made it.
If they express an interest, you continue that path and you show them the rest of your portfolio. Or you close them on that one sale, and if they don’t, you say, “Here’s my card. If you’re ever interested, you can go look online.” If they don’t express any interest, you just keep driving like you’re just a regular guy?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: I see. So, that brings me back to, how do you get people to pay enough attention to what you’re doing that they want to go and investigate it. And frankly I got to tell you, Gavin, I’ve seen some people in my interviews promote, and no one cares about it. Like, the founder of Scribd, I love his product. I think he overpromoted Scribd in his Mixergy interview. He was constantly, “For $8.99, you get this.” “I got it. I got it. We hear you. You’re turning people off at some point.”
There are others, who don’t bring it up at all. And, by the way, I love his product, I’m a member. I pay him every month so I can listen to audiobooks on his service, but I still feel it’s a little much. There are some people who don’t talk about it at all. And my audience will go and they’ll sign up. The audience will go and they’ll frankly even get a job with the person. What I’m trying to figure out is, how do you do it? How do people show enough that potential customers have something to latch on, but not so much that they’re exhausting potential customers?
Gavin: For me, I guess my product is a very unique product because essentially I’m selling my own work that I designed and/or made myself. And there’s nobody else. If you ever want a Gavin Escolar piece, you have to go to Gavin Escolar himself. And I guess for me, for my promotion, I would like to promote what I have. But at the end of the day, yet again, it’s the quality of work that I have that people buy my pieces. It’s who I am.
Andrew: I see. You know what, I’m now looking at a piece of jewelry right now. It’s just a ring. I don’t know the words, I don’t know the language, but it looks like it’s gold-colored and it’s got a red gem in the center.
Gavin: Yes, it’s a ruby.
Andrew: What is it?
Gavin: It’s a ruby.
Andrew: That’s ruby, okay. So, it’s a ruby ring, a ring with a ruby in it. That doesn’t stand out much. It looks special, but you have to really look at it to appreciate it. So that’s not something you would use to draw attention.
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: It is?
Gavin: Actually surprisingly enough on my portfolio that actually sits on the first page. And when they take a look at it because the thing is that it’s just like, oh, you see something on my dashboard. And I’ll be like, “Hey, you’re interested. Would you like to take a look at my portfolio?” That picture that you see, the one with the branch, that is the first picture that I put on my portfolio, and that gets a lot of attention because it’s in your . . .
Andrew: I imagine that doesn’t get a lot of attention if I’m in the car and just being driven. It doesn’t stand out that much, it feels like. Right? You tell me.
Gavin: Correct. But what I’m trying to say is that it’s already in your head that you’re looking at a jeweler’s portfolio.
Andrew: I see. So, what you’re saying, here’s the way I see it. But I haven’t even driven with you. My friend has. What happens is you get something that’s eye-catching, that’s different, that’s remarkable, remark-worthy. People notice it and, and then you bring them over to the portfolio, where the things that are interesting, but only if you spend some time looking at them will you notice why they’re different. That’s the thing. Got it.
So, if I’m a developer taking it back to someone in the audience and I have a range of different services that I offer, I probably shouldn’t lead with the safest bet. I should probably lead with the most outrageous or the most stunning, right?
Gavin: Yes. So, it’s like a fashion designer with the avant-garde piece and the ready-to-wear pieces.
Andrew: Right, yes. So, if there’s some little thing where I will set up shop for you on Instagram, maybe I want to stay with that, even though few people are going to want to do it. But, at least, it starts a conversation. And, then, I ship people over to what’s safe. Got it. All right. Okay. So, that’s one of the other things that I’m learning from you. Let me see what else. You picked up a woman who was at the gallery. And she asked you what you did. She tried on a ring and other pieces. She gave you her card. She loved the concept of buying jewelry while being driven around. That’s a customer story. All right. How much money do you make driving?
Gavin: Not a lot. Not a lot. It’s a small subset of the revenue that I make from my jewelry.
Andrew: Do you remember how much you made, say — we’re now in May — in April 2015?
Gavin: I think around $3000 a month.
Andrew: $3000 a month. And how much, would you say, you make from your jewelry every month?
Gavin: It depends because some of it, for example, revenue-wise, sometimes it’s $10,000, sometimes it’s $100,000, depending on the quality of diamond that I purchase for my clients.
Andrew: So, what’s the average?
Gavin: It’s around $15,000 to $20,000 a month.
Andrew: Okay. And last year, am I right to say that 2014 you made a quarter million dollars?
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: You did? From both?
Gavin: Yes, a revenue, yeah.
Andrew: Interesting. Impressive. What’s your net on that?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: I get it. It’s nothing you share.
Gavin: I prefer [inaudible 00:31:11] private interview.
Andrew: But you don’t sell diamonds, right?
Gavin: I sell designs.
Andrew: You sell designs. So, you don’t sell gems that are expensive, which means your costs aren’t expensive for material?
Gavin: Actually, I do have expensive gemstones. So, for example, I have to contract with somebody else, put a bond. So, for example, if you’re looking for a two-carat diamond, I have to charge them accordingly for that price.
Andrew: What else I’d like to learn from you, your clothes. You would stand out to me even if I saw no jewelry on you. I was at a conference last week. I was invited to come over. I went. I had dinner with people. There was one person completely out of my way. I had to go and talk to him because he had a shaved head, frankly had a dot on his forehead, right? He was wearing a vest on a white shirt. That drew my attention.
All of that made him feel like someone who is different from everyone else, and you pay attention to him. You don’t have something like a dot on your forehead. You’ve what seems like very fashionable clothes that fit everywhere. How do you get to a place, how do you know how to dress yourself that’s striking like that?
Gavin: It’s just the way I am. For example, I did the whole dress-up-in-a-suit deal and all that stuff but I’m an artist. So, I just let everything flourish to me and I design my own clothes, actually.
Andrew: You do?
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: So what are you wearing on top? That’s a jacket?
Gavin: It’s a cape.
Andrew: It’s a cape. Who wears a cape? Of course I’m going to pay attention to the cape. But frankly I didn’t even see that it was a cape. I didn’t see the structure of it. I saw the material of it. The material looks good.
Gavin: So, it’s a cape and I’m wearing a one-of-a-kind onesie.
Andrew: That black and polka dot?
Gavin: As you can see, this is one-piece.
Andrew: And it goes to your crotch?
Gavin: Yeah, it goes to my crutch to the legs completely.
Andrew: Okay. There’s no way I’m ever going to be able to pull off a onesie. I don’t think I’m going to be able to marry a cape. I think I’m using the right language. Marry a cape with a onesie or with anything else. But I would still like to be striking and I’ll tell you why. Rand Fishkin, a good friend of mine and past interviewee, I think he used to wear yellow sneakers to conferences. People recognized him as the guy with the yellow sneakers. They paid attention to him before they even knew his work. And as a result of paying attention to him, they then learned about his work and they became often customers.
So, I’d like to find somewhere on the spectrum for me and more importantly for my audience, who I love so much. I want us to be able to stand out in a way that people notice us and then want to start a conversation about whatever it is that we’re selling. We’re probably not selling jewelry if in the Mixergy audience. We’re probably buying jewelry more than we’re selling. But we still need to have people notice us. What do we do? How do we do it if we don’t have the ability to make our own capes?
Gavin: Okay. I just really think that you just have to know what your strengths are. Find out who you really are and what you specialize in.
Andrew: What if all I really am is a guy who is good at sitting at a keyboard and working?
Gavin: Okay. I get it.
Andrew: Right? Then, you know who I really am? I’m what you saw me before we officially started this interview because we had half hour in-between. I was sitting here wearing a t-shirt. That’s who I really am. A t-shirt on camera looks like I’m a bag of bones that someone threw a little bit of cloth on because they felt bad for the bag of bones. So, that’s no good?
Gavin: For me, I chose this particular outfit that I wear every day because I don’t have to think about it anymore. For example, Mike Zuckerberg, right, he’s wearing this grey hoodie and the grey t-shirt. It’s his uniform. This is my uniform. In San Francisco, it gets really cold and really warm, so that’s why I have a cape on and I have a onesie because I drive.
Andrew: I see. So, you’re saying, “You know what? You don’t have to be so interesting that you have a closet full of remarkable outfits. If you have the yellow sneakers, it’s okay to wear them at every conference. If you have the cape and that’s who you are, it’s okay to wear it all the time.” I see. So, find that one thing. How do we find that one thing? Do you have advice for us on how to find that thing that’s going to make us so interesting?
Gavin: Surprisingly enough, meditation for me.
Andrew: What do you mean? How does meditation lead to that?
Gavin: Meditation is for me to look into myself and find out who I truly am and what I’m comfortable with.
Andrew: How does that happen? You sit down and you say, “Who am I?”
Gavin: No, I just sit down. Either I chant or just reflect on my mind and then, for me, things just go into my head, and I’ll be like, “Okay, this makes sense.” And, then, from then on I just move on from that.
Andrew: You know, I did an event here in San Francisco where I taught meditation as part of the event. It was a start-up event, but at some point in the middle, I taught meditation. I gave everyone meditation beads like these and I though it was very powerful because I saw people for . . . It’s been about a week or so. So I saw people wear them for that long and talk about how much they got out of it. But here’s the thing. Tim Ferriss was there speaking, and when I said, “Someone in the audience thinks I should stop calling it meditation,” he agreed. He said, “Meditation sounds too wooey, people will not pay attention to it.”
So what I’m going to say is not so much to you. You’re okay with it sounding wooey, you don’t care. You’re not going to be held back by it. But to anyone who’s listening who says, “Hey, you know what? I tuned as soon as Andrew and Gavin talked about meditation. I’m done.” Tune back in. Really. Give yourself an opportunity to pay attention to how many people you admire actually spend some time on focusing on their thoughts or their breath and bringing it back to who they are. Because frankly, I had to put my phone on silent mode because there are tons of apps that are trying to get my attention to where they are and who they are, not what I am about. So find a way to investigate. I teach it here, at Mixergy, actually. Do I even have a way for it? No, you don’t have a way to teach it. I should find a way to show it to people. Right?
It’s so powerful. It brings you back to what you’re about. Right now, there’s so many times that my mind could wander off to, “Oh, is this boring? Is this not working out? Did I mention my sponsor?” All those little stray thoughts are a distraction from doing the conversation and being who I really am here. And the only way I can get back to who I am and I what I want to say in these interviews is by meditating, where in my meditation I practice focusing. When a stray thought comes in meditation, I have to bring myself back to my focus. When I worry or a to-do list comes in and I want to reach for my phone to write it down, I practice meditation, bring it back to what I’m doing right there. By practicing there, I can do it here.
Gavin: Absolutely.
Andrew: Okay. Here actually I take it back. When we talked about self-doubt and you said that you didn’t really have much when you started selling. But when you talked to our producer, April, and she asked you about it, you said there was a point where you were thinking, “Is the end of the tunnel?” where you were getting leads for your jewelry business, but sometimes people didn’t have much interest. They would put on a pair of earrings in the car, and for two weeks, no one said any . . . Oh, you would pair of earrings in the car. For two weeks, no one said anything and you had a lot of self-doubt. How did you deal with that self-doubt?
Gavin: How did I deal with that self-doubt? Self-doubt only happens when you focus on the negative. For me, not having any interest in my jewelry was really . . . You start thinking that, “Oh, my goodness, is this something that I really want to do?” and stuff. “Is this going to pay my bills at the end of the day?” And, then, I found out there are other ways for you to get out that self-doubt. It’s not necessarily me per se, it was that particular piece.
So, once I started switching things around and making sure that I don’t take a lot of things personally. So, once I switch it around and then I start moving and start product-testing, I realized that this self-doubt, it’s making my methods stagnant. So, I need to switch things around. And once I switched things around, then there’s some self-doubt that’s still there, but once I started getting reactions from people or interest from people, then my self-doubt just went away.
Andrew: Oh, I see. So self-doubt is self-perpetuating. You feel self-doubt and so you’d allow your stuff to just sit there and stagnate and no one would pay attention to it because it was stagnating. And, as a results, you would have more self-doubt, and that means that you weren’t going to fix things because, “What’s the use? No one’s going to care about an artist in a car.” I see. And to break that cycle, you said, “Hey, you know what? How about if I focus on what I want, which is I want people to notice my things. How do I get what I want? Well, if I shift things around, then . . . I see you’re jumping up and down, you’re excited. This is the truth? This is what happened to you in your mind? And that’s what got you the results? How early on did this . . . I’m sorry. What were you going to say?
Gavin: For me, that self-doubt was really powerful in my life. Because that makes me focus on how to be innovative and how to really hone it down for myself. This is not about how people think about my pieces, it’s just my old stagnation, should I say.
Andrew: Wait, why is self-doubt powerful for you?
Gavin: Self-doubt is powerful for me because it shapes me. So, there are some milestones that I would hit and I need that self-doubt in order for me to keep on improving myself.
Andrew: Oh, I see. If not for the self-doubt, you would allow things to get stagnant. Self-doubt says, “Hey, what do I do to get my confidence back? What do I do to get my confidence back is . . . “, and then that shifts your attention.
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: Can I tell you something? I clicked your Pinterest link earlier because I just wanted to see what you’re up to online. And this fitness collection is totally distracting. I should not be looking at your . . . I’m not even going to say what I’m seeing in the fitness collection, but some of these guys are very distracting. You don’t have to say what’s there, but . . . This is your personal fitness. This is your personal Pinterest collection that you’re putting up.
Gavin: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: This isn’t even you trying to sell stuff to other people. It’s people who you think look good, things that you think are interesting. You’re collecting it all and putting them together and you’re linking it from your home page.
Gavin: Yes. Whatever attracts my eye, I just pin it. I have no holds barred.
Andrew: That’s the other thing about you, that you’re just fully being yourself. I often will start calculating too much. “Well, if someone sees my Pinterest board, I want to make sure that it reflects my personal brand.” Actually I don’t let myself get to that point. But a lot of people do. And you don’t let yourself do that. You don’t say, “Hey, my personal brand is art. Why am I just posting someone on the beach?”
Gavin: Yeah. No. For me, whatever spikes my interest . . . And Pinterest for me is my board of inspiration, among other things. And if that particular fitness thing inspires me to do one thing or inspires me to design, it’s there.
Andrew: What are you going to do to grow this beyond a quarter million dollars? Or you’re happy saying, “Hey, I have a quarter million dollars a year. Andrew, shut up.”
Gavin: Well, for me, it’s not about the money aspect. For me, it’s more of the privilege of actually designing and making amazing one-of-a-kind jewelry. So, I would love to have a revenue of, let’s say, $50 to $100 million because I get access to, let’s say, a $48 million 100-carat diamond that’s only one of a kind in the world. The money doesn’t motivate me. It’s the pieces that I could do.
Andrew: I see. How do you get access to more pieces and more material to make them and more people to wear them? By talking to more people. So how do you get to that? By selling to more people and having a revenue. So how do we get to that? How do we go beyond a quarter million dollars 2014, which is impressive, that’s why I’m having you on here, to double that or, as you said, to increase it by five to six times?
Gavin: For me, the way I’m doing it, I just want to keep on doing what I?m doing right now. And thus far, it’s doing really well. And hopefully it’ll make more. Actually I wish I had more access for more beautiful diamonds and stuff.
Andrew: One thing I’ve heard you’re thinking of doing is getting more drivers. If you could put this in more people’s cars, and they, then, get people to pay attention etcetera, then is that it? How is that going for you?
Gavin: Yes. It’s doing really well. I have seven drivers right now.
Andrew: There’s seven drivers with your jewelry in their cars?
Gavin: Yes.
Andrew: Okay. I’m talking a little too loudly. Frankly, if anyone’s in San Francisco and they’re looking at office space and they say, “Oh, Andrew Warner is also on this floor,” you might get excited for a moment, but think about it. I get excited during the interviews. You might hear through the walls. Just a little warning for the audience.
I see that some Mixergy interviewees or fans have rented from the same building that I have in the past, and I know that others have looked around. I just want to give you guys a warning. I’m noticing my volume is excessively loud today. You know why it’s excessively loud? Because I started my day and I said, “Oh, I just don’t want to do interviews today.” And I said, “What do I want to do?”
Then I got into it and I said, “Well, what’s exciting about my interviews today? What do I want out of my interviews?” And then, I got fired out of a cannon. I’m totally charged up now that I know what I want. That’s what happens to you. So, sorry, we were talking about other drivers. You’ve seven drivers driving around with your jewelry. Okay, so how do you train somebody to show your jewelry properly?
Gavin: First of all, I just need to see what their personality is like, that’s a big thing for me, and how they interact with people. And, once they start interacting with people, I provide them with the materials that they usually have. And then from there, they would furnish leads for me. And then, I would speak to those clients personally afterwards.
Andrew: How did you find your first person to drive around?
Gavin: I found my first person to drive, he was actually my passenger. Yeah. He was actually my passenger, and we were talking about things. He said, “I’m looking for another job,” and all of this stuff. And I could totally see that he has that je ne sais quoi. And I was like, “Would you like to drive Uber?” And he’s like, “Yes, I would love to drive Uber.”
So, I tested him out and I saw that his rating for the first month was a 4.9, and it just kept on building at his stat. I was just like, “Okay.” Then, from there, I said, “Hey, would you be interested in selling one of these bangles? I have this stingray bangle that I have. And then I gave one to him, and the next thing you know, he sold one. And then from there, it just kept on multiplying.
Andrew: So if he just has a bangle on, how does anyone notice it?
Gavin: He would wear it.
Andrew: He would wear, and someone would comment on it, and then he would sell it?
Gavin: Yeah, and they’re like, “Oh, the owner of this car happens to be Gavin Escolar. He’s doing this, he’s blah blah blah.”
Andrew: Oh, I see. And you also him the car, your car.
Gavin: My car, the car, the brochures that I have, including my portfolio.
Andrew: They’re all in the car. I see. I’ve got a photo of you here with Jon Youshaei. I hope I’m pronouncing Jon’s name. I know him. He’s come over to my house for poker. He’s a writer for Forbes who wrote about you. I see him and you in your car, and in-between the two of you, on the dashboard, is some kind of holder and earrings hanging from it. So, when you’re lending this car, your car, to someone else to drive, does he have the earrings, too?
Gavin: Absolutely.
Andrew: Oh, I see. So it’s not just that you gave him the bangle. You gave him the bangle, and everything else that was in the car stayed there. And all those things are fodder for conversation? Got it. I see.
Gavin: Yes. That fodder for the conversation, it’s already there.
Andrew: Okay. So, now you have seven people who do this. What’s your cut with them?
Gavin: My cut with them? Actually it’s not a lot. Surprisingly enough, they give out promo codes. And, then, with the promo codes, I know exactly what their clients order, and, then, they get a cut out of that.
Andrew: And this whole thing with promo codes and shopping cart on your site, it’s just all Squarespace. Yeah, you just used off-the-shelf Squarespace. How do I even put in a promo code on this site? If I go to check-out . . . I see, there it is. Yeah, and then check-out takes me to a secure Squarespace page. It looks just like your site. Who designed this page for you?
Gavin: I have a friend who designed this for me in Asia. She’s the one who made this for me.
Andrew: It just is really simple. It just works. And what I like is that unless I’m me or someone in my audience, I wouldn’t even notice that I went from your site, which happened to be on Squarespace, to a Squarespace shopping cart.
Gavin: Oh, that’s a really good thing, thank you very much.
Andrew: That’s a very good thing. You should know my audience is a whole other kind of person. I had your source up on my screen before we started the interview. I did a “view source.”
I looked around. That’s not who you are. You’re a person who’s more of an artist. You actually, from what I hear, used to make jewelry for dogs and cats. What kind of jewelry did you make for dogs and cats?
Gavin: I had a very rich clientele, clients that I would make diamond collars for them. One time, one of my first dog collar was this $150,000 diamond collar for her Chihuahua.
Andrew: I can’t imagine. What does someone do when they can pay for a $150,000 diamond collar for their Chihuahua?
Gavin: What do they do? They’re born from royalty.
Andrew: Is that what it is?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: How do you wind up with friends who are royalty?
Gavin: Well, as an artist, I get to meet a lot of people, I guess. This particular one actually, I got it from my car, from my Uber car.
Andrew: Really? Royalty comes in the car, you start talking. Interesting.
Gavin: Yeah. Royalty [inaudible 00:49:03] in the car, saw my diamond ring and basically six months later, she said, “I have this amazing dog that I love. I would like to have a diamond collar, and this is how much the carat weight is of what I want.” And I was like, “You know this is going to cost $150,000?” And she’s like, “I don’t care.”
Andrew: Wow. So, does that count towards your quarter million? So is it a $150,000 collar and then $100,000 . . .
Gavin: That was before.
Andrew: That was before. I see. Okay. So, I know if I were in New York and I was going to do this . . . I haven’t grown up in New York. I know that probably I would keep driving in circles on that area of Park Avenue in Midtown or Fifth Avenue, after hours especially, by the park because that’s where the rich people are. Is there a place in San Francisco where you say, “Hey, you know what? It’s not going to be surge pricing, but I’m going to drive around here because that’s where they are”?
Gavin: Pacific Heights, [inaudible 00:49:59].
Andrew: That’s it. So you just keep going to those areas and you know you’re going to do well?
Gavin: Yeah.
Andrew: Who’s the guy who was the wolf of Wall Street? I forgot his name. I read both of his books when my son was a baby and I needed something to do while I was just bouncing him up and down on this ball to calm him down. And one of the things that I learned from him was, whatever it was that other people selling, he started out by just selling the same thing in richer neighborhoods. And as long as he did that, things started to go well for him. So, at one point . . . It’s even in the movie, in the Wolf of Wall Street. He’s selling meat door-to-door. Well, that would’ve been done before.
But his take on it was, he went to the richer neighborhoods and did the exact same sales technique selling door-to-door meat to the rich people in their neighborhoods. And that was one of his big innovations in the early days. Anyway, it seems like that’s what you’re doing for yourself. All right. I should wrap up this interview by asking you the one question that you said we didn’t ask you and we should. And I know why we didn’t ask you because who’s going to think to ask this question? And I want to know what your answer is. We should’ve asked you or one thing we could ask you is, how you reached out to the Filipinos in your community? What do you do to Filipinos in your community?
Gavin: I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of Filipinos that don’t know a lot about innovation technology, even though they live so close to San Francisco. Especially if I need to target a particular demographic of Filipinos, they tend to be the mid-40s to late 50s, who are professionals that migrated here to the United States and who used to be accountants or attorneys or doctors, for that matter, and they’re just getting by over here. That’s where I taught them how to use the Uber platform and these ride-sharing platforms because I know that it’s ingrained to their professionalism already.
Andrew: I see. And, so, you’re helping them get involved in the new economy, which means getting on Uber, getting into these online platforms. So, your solution for or your way of giving back to the Filipino community is getting them to be Uber drivers?
Gavin: I’m giving them new ways for them to make revenue.
Andrew: New ways. What else?
Gavin: Moreover, I also . . . Because I’ve noticed with the Filipino community, it’s just like, “Oh, yeah, you just have to do this, you have to do that. And then, that’s it.” I was just like, “Well, you can drive.” They’re like, “Oh, but that’s kind humiliating.” I’m like, “Making an extra $3000 a month is not humiliating.”
Andrew: I see. You know what? I started the interview with that question specifically with that attitude in mind.
Gavin: Yeah. I’m sorry. It’s much more humiliating for you to fall in line at the EDD and ask the government to pay for your food.
Andrew: You know what? I think it’s less humiliating, but it should be more humiliating for some people to say, “I don’t want to put myself out there and start to make some sales. I don’t want to put myself out there and create content, even though I know it’s going to bring in sales. That’s humiliating. Instead, I’m going to wallow in my own misery at home. And then people could think I’m doing great because they don’t see that I’m struggling. But as soon as people see that I’m trying, then they might think that I’m not doing great. And then they’ll feel bad for me.” And then, in their minds, they are being humiliated. The real humiliation is not doing something.
Gavin: Exactly. Yeah.
Andrew: Right. All right. So, you and I are doing some things, I should say. How people can follow up with you and with me. And frankly let me tell you guys this. I know a lot of people in Mixergy audience do not know that they could get every single interview from Mixergy directly to their phones via whatever podcasting app they like. My favorite is Overcast or Downcast. But even if you like that piece of garbage that Apple gives you on your phone called Podcast, even there I will appear, if you want me to. All you have to do is type in “Mixergy”, M-I-X-E-R-G-Y. Now, if you use the podcast app that they include should you upgrade? Absolutely. But no judgment from me. I don’t think that it matters. Whatever you want, whatever you like. You can get Mixergy directly delivered in.
If you want to help me out, and it would be a huge help, and you liked this interview or anything about this interview. Maybe you just liked the cape that Gavin is wearing, go to the iTunes store, look up Mixergy and give me a review. I’ve never asked for reviews in the past. And shame on me, I should have. If you want something in this world, you should ask for it. And I didn’t realize I should have even wanted reviews. But apparently the more reviews you have, the better you feel on those depressing days because you can go in there and look up what other people say, number one. Number two, more people will discover Mixergy.
So, go listen in whatever podcast player and subscribe in whatever podcast player you prefer, even if it’s whatever it is Apple gave you. And if you want to help me out, write a review.
And Gavin, we’ve talked a lot about your work. If people want to see you, they should go directly to your website, which is GavinEscolar.com. Escolar is E-S-C-O-L-A-R.com. And if someone wants to drive in their city and help you promote or they want to connect with you and ask you how they could do whatever, what’s a good way for them to connect with you?
Gavin: Yeah. Please email me at info@gavinescolar.com.
Andrew: All right. And, as always, if there’s something you got out of the interview, don’t start off by saying, “Hey, how do I make some money?” or “Can you help me with my sales?” or “Can you show me how I could wear a onesie?” Start off by just saying, “Thank you, Gavin, for having done this interview.” And I’m going to do it right now. Gavin, thank you for having done this Mixergy interview.
Gavin: Thank you very much, Mixergy, for having me over. Thank you very much, Andrew.
Andrew: And, Jon, thanks for the introduction. I’ll thank you in person, too, Jon. Bye, everyone.
Gavin: Thank you so much, Jon. Take care.
Andrew: Yeah, it was fantastic.
