Andrew: Hey there freedom fighters, my name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart and I’ve got a guest with me today who ran a company that well, pursued the wrong idea, it doesn’t working, it didn’t go anywhere. Then he did one thing and this company turned around. He talked to potential customer and he found their pain. Tim Sae Koo is the founder of Tint, a platform that helps brands aggregate, curate, and display any social media feeds anywhere they want. I invited him here to talk about how he built his business, how he found his customer’s needs and how he actually generated GRevenue, go figure revenue in a tech company, who knew?
This whole thing is sponsored by Toptal. I needed a developer recently to help me with my work for a site, and I thought Toptal only works with Top developers who work on Top platforms and Top languages, they probably wouldn’t want to do anything with my little site. It turns out, they do. They have developers for WordPress and so many other platforms and languages. Not only that, Toptal makes sure that those developers are the best of the best. They’re proven to be among the top three percent among their peers. I put a $500 deposit, they went out and they found two great people for me. We could have fired either one of those two. We picked the one with the best cultural fit for us that had the right price for us and yes, we could have fired this developer to work with us on a weekly basis but I didn’t have kind of a need or maybe on a part time basis, I didn’t even have that kind of need. I just needed a few hours and boy this developer did for us within days. Everything that we needed was up and running and we can continue to work with them. That is the way Toptal works. Many use them to hire full time developers to me or part time developers but you can also do what we did, get them for an hourly basis. Toptal proven guaranteed, if you need a developer, I urge you to go checkout toptal.com T-O-P-T-A-L.com and I’m glad that they’re the sponsor. Tim, welcome.
Tim: Thank you.
Andrew: The business I mentioned in the top, I was looking at your face as I said it, it is called Hypemarks, you brought that up to investors and what did your investors say to you?
Tim: Yeah, I remember that first time when I went to the investors and I said, “Hey, this what we’re building. We have a couple of thousand users right now. We launched a month or two months ago and this is our traction.” Then they said, “So what? What do you have to offer that’s so novel, so different or so exciting.”
Andrew: You even had traction and they said, “So what.” What did the business do?
Tim: At that time, high marks was similar to what [Tim] does today but from the consumer side. Consumers like you and I would have a profile for all the shared content that we shared on the social networks into one profile so the end goal was that you had one archived library of contents that people would be able to easily find kind of find and discover new . . .
Andrew: I see, why go to Andrew’s Instagram account and Twitter account and also those other accounts that Andrew has, go to Hypemarks, it aggregates of all Andrew’s stuff in an organized stuff and your investor said that, “I’m glad you have a little bit of traction but why was not traction not enough.”
Tim: Yeah, at that time, this was back in 2012, obviously tons of start ups up and coming, lot of incubators [thumping] out pre-funded start ups. At that time it was really competitive and we needed to figure out what can we do to stand out. They gave some feedback. They said, “Hey why don’t you think about building this. Did you ever think about contacting that person and seeing what they thought.” Little did they know, we actually took that into a very big consideration. What that meant was . . .
Andrew: Wait, why did they shifted direction. What was it about this thing that they didn’t like if you were getting traction. If people did have all these social networks, if they did want to aggregate them, if social is inherently viral and you had some traction, why didn’t they like the idea in the business.
Tim: They have an interest in the idea in general like organizing the noise of social content. That something that they were interested in exploring but they weren’t fully satisfied with the amount of traction we had which is like a couple of thousand users and because our team was first time entrepreneurs like myself right out of school, of college. We just didn’t have the win under our belt to make them feel that confident. I wouldn’t say that they [initially] shifted our product, they gave very good feedback in opinions on what they think could work because they themselves were proven entrepreneurs and seen it here and there. They just gave us some feedback saying like, “Hey, why don’t you consider building out this feature that does this? You don’t have to change our platform but consider this. Why don’t you contact so and so and get some advice and ask them for feedback there? ”
Andrew: You took those into heart and you did it your [inaudible 00:05:08].
Tim: Yeah, really we did and they didn’t really realize how much we took it to heart so what did was after that meeting, talked to our team and said, “Let’s surprise our investors and build it out in a couple of days and show it to them.” The reason why I did that was I was told, and I researched, and I watched Shark Tank a lot. The main thing of the first meeting of an investor is to get the second meeting. The goal of the second meeting is to get the third meeting. Each goal is to get the next meeting until you finally get a close. What I was trying to do is saying, “Let’s come up with the reason or an excuse to get them to want to meet up with us again.” We built up those features that they thought about within a couple of days. Then they also said, “Why don’t you talk to some tech gurus and some tech people out in the field? ” I did exactly that. Yeah, I kind of contacted Robert Scoble. I contacted Steve Case, Tim O’Reilly as well as Mark Cuban just to get some feedback and just . . .
Andrew: Did any of them return your emails?
Tim: Yes, they all did.
Andrew: You got Steve Case and Mark Cuban to return your emails. Robert Scoble, I could imagine he’s hard . . .
Tim: Tim O’Reilly as well and then Mark Cuban.
Andrew: What did you say that got them all to respond?
Tim: I told them, well first you build to their ego. So you say, “Hey, I read a lot about your blogs or I follow you a lot. I watched a lot of your YouTube videos.” and you reference something that shows that you actually did watch or pay attention to them. Then I kept email really short. I said, “This is who I am. This is what I’m doing and this is the task that I’m asking you.” That task is either one line feedback so really simple for them or if they liked it maybe tweet out the url or the profile actually created for them as well. I actually created unique profiles for them of all their shared content. Then the last thing was I timed it to the time where they would probably look at their email or open their email which would typically be maybe after dinner, before TV or watching TV and you use kind of scroll into your phone and just relax. I remember I would email it out maybe at seven thirty, eight o’clock at night, and I get a response not too long after or I track it using YesWare to see if they opened the email or not. It was a lot of strategy like that. They all returned my emails. They all gave me feedback and all four of them did tweet out our URL. We took that traction and that kind of momentum and show it to our potential investors and said like, “This is what we can do.” They weren’t necessarily that impressed by the people that did it. They were like, “Okay, that’s pretty cool.” I think the biggest lesson they took was that, this person me, I’m willing to be creative and strategic enough to get through the traction that we need to get to. That’s what they were excited about.
Andrew: I see. So they didn’t love the idea but they said, “If a guy can get all these people, Mark Cuban, Steve Case and tell others to actually support him and tweet him and to even open his email, maybe he’s got something here.”
Tim: Sure.
Andrew: Where’d you come up with that original idea?
Tim: Yeah, that original idea came from a college class course I took. I studied at the University of Southern California down in Los Angeles taking entrepreneurship and I remember one of our classes semester project was to take an idea as far as you could. As that, I said, “You know what, I’m going to try doing this software idea that makes social media content much more understandable, and clean, and organized.” and then I rolled that out, I got really addicted to this entrepreneurship route. I really wasn’t in it for the claim or fame of it, it was more so like this was just so exciting. This time on my life where I was still young, and had full of energy, and could pursue something that I was genuinely interested in exploring and work with people that I really love working with. That’s where it all came about.
Andrew: Did helping your mother have something to do with it?
Tim: Yeah. I grew up with a single mother. I think they divorced when I was two years old, so I grew up with her, and an older brother and older sister as well. I remember one time my mother asked me in the car if what I wanted to become when I was older and I said two things, one was to be first, president of the United States as an Asian American or be a hotel manager. And she said, “You know what, why do you want to be a hotel manager.” I said, “I want to make sure you are having a great time and I can reward for all the great work that you’ve been raising from.”
Andrew: Because it wasn’t easy for her.
Tim: Absolutely not.
Andrew: What was it like for your mother?
Tim: Yes, a single mother with three kids all about five years apart from each other and she was working full time and we had a babysitter kind of coming and help us out here and there. I remember it was when my brother and my sister went to college, it was pretty lonely and it sucked a lot of times because she was still hard at work and I couldn’t complain at all because she was still trying to get my brother and sister through college and me starting to get to college too.
Andrew: Do you remember a time that it was especially tough on her that made you say, “This is not the life I want for my mother.”
Tim: Yeah, I think there were times when there were inevitable arguments from our siblings and us just saying not so good things like, “Hey I wish this never happened.” or anything like that and obviously she broke down and . . .
Andrew: I wish [inaudible 00:10:29] was never happened that I didn’t . . .
Tim: Or sort the separation or . . . I remember it was really sad and I remember there were times when I crawled under the bed and kind of just thought to myself, what could I do to ever make this better. It wasn’t any sort of, I was trying to pity myself or trying to look for sympathy. It was like, what can I do to make this better. Kind of drawing it all back when my mom said, “Hey don’t worry about me and being a hotel manager. Focus on helping others.” I took that to heart and decided to pursue the political route a little bit, so I interned with some senators, state senators and got some experience on there. After I realized that it wasn’t the path I thought it could be where you could truly help people really quickly. Unfortunately there was a lot of bureaucracy red tape, and something we all realize after we are part it. I decided to pursue business and just see like, “Could I do something that could positively impact people and also ultimately make my mother proud that she did a good job of raising me.” That was what the biggest inspiration came from.
Andrew: I know what you mean. I feel like those early experiences really shaped my motivation, shaped our motivations. There’s one period for a long time where we didn’t have health insurance as a family and so you couldn’t be sick and that was so much pressure. “Don’t get hurt because we don’t health insurance. Don’t fall down because we don’t have health insurance.” And I said, “I’m going to have enough money that health insurance is not an issue. I don’t want this kind of life.”
Tim: Absolutely. It was that and she had a lot of pressure. I think the ultimate was like, she worked so hard and she tried so hard that I just want to make sure she feels like that all was worth something. It didn’t become a waste in the end. That’s why when there are times even today when it’s really tough on me and I’m just struggling a crap of things, it’s just like, remember what the motivation was and remember why did this all . . . It’s still very exciting when you think a potential that you can impact people and make her proud for all the things that she did for me.
Andrew: All right. You came up with this business idea, going back to where we were. You were still in school. Here’s a note that I saw about where the product was at the time. You said you were going through a lot of frustrations, you worked in an incubator that was sponsored by General Electric and you pitched someone at that time and they said that the pain points were forced and they were weak. You in retrospect think that you were trying to solve, I’m looking here at my note . . . You were to jam problem states into your solution to try to justify why you built this business up. That’s a pretty self-aware thing to realize.
Tim: Yeah, I think it’s pretty common for first time entrepreneurs, maybe it’s just me. That’s when you’re younger and you’re very excited, you become a little naive to what could discipline should be about. I remember because I started this in school and it was a school project and it was all about speediness and finishing this up. I think I came up with the idea just because it sounded cool versus retracting that, stepping back, and understanding what is a problem that someone so and so, or market, or kind of client, or an [entry] is facing and am I excited about that solution that i want to build for them. After I heard that and I took it to heart. I was like, “Man I definitely came up with the solution first and try to jam problem statements into there, and it was so frustrating so many days because it just never clicked together. That was when I realize, okay I definitely did it in reverse when it should have been, let’s figure out the problem first and really define what it is and then see if we can wrap a solution around that that’s unique enough that maybe no one has seen or has done before.
Andrew: At the top of our conversation, I said that the thing you did that helped you change the direction and the business was, you started making phone calls. You made 15 of them. Who did you call?
Tim: Just a quick back story, we launched a product and I think in one month we weren’t seeing the traction we wanted to see, and I was getting impatient. I’m just a natural impatient person and I never want to feel comfortable and always want to take it to the next level. It didn’t help that three other competitors at that exact same month, if not the month before. If we got press, it would be like, “Oh check out Hypemarks, it’s just like Blink but a little different.” It sucks to hear that. We weren’t getting the traction and we weren’t getting the user growth. If we were going to be playing in the consumer market and like I said before, traction is everything nowadays for a consumer product, you need to get, they were saying like 10 million is the new 1 million so you need to get up to 10 million users to even feel like you have some sort of traction now in the consumer play. We weren’t going to get near that. With the runway we had, there was no way I remember stepping back and talking to our team and saying like, “Game plan, we needed to change something. Something’s not working.” Obviously, we did know the answers because we were just fresh college grads, figuring out how to do this all. The very next thing I did was, I looked through our user base and maybe two or three thousand of them. I looked through brand names which are pretty recognizable and I just started emailing them, setting up a call with them, doing what I could to go grab a cup of coffee with them, treat them out, whatever it is.
Andrew: Who [inaudible 00:16:02] brand name companies?
Tim: Yeah, there was a couple of them. One of them . . .
Andrew: I mean, who, which person that the company . . . Are you talking to the marketing person?
Tim: It was a digital team, social media team.
Andrew: I see.
Tim: Communications team.
Andrew: The reason you went them was you said, “Look, these guys have money. I don’t just need traction. I need real customers.” Am I right?
Tim: Yeah, it was part of that. It was like these people are recognizable brands that have good industry, expertise, and knowledge, and to probably have paying points in their businesses, in their communication marketing team that we could potentially capitalize on. There were some people from Time Inc. that signed up for our applications. There were a lot of people in the entertainment industry that signed up for our application.
Andrew: I see and so it wasn’t just strangers, it was people who signed up for your software, who are experimenting with it, who also worked at bigger companies so you could look for their paying points.
Tim: Exactly. I started with the big brand names, grab their email. Email them as simple as saying, “Hey thank you for being a user. We’re thinking about shifting something but we’d like to ask some questions for you.” The biggest one that came back to us was this management agency called The Collective down in Los Angeles. They manage a lot of celebrity websites and digital presence. We simply ask them, “What are some problems that you’re facing right now? ” And they said, “We want to make our websites social that we create for our celebrities but we don’t want to spend so much time or effort on it and we need a simple solution to do that.” I remember the first client they brought to us which is the first client we ever rolled this out with was Tony Braxton which is a 90’s kind of RNB singer. They were rebuilding her site and they said, “We need to be more social, more dynamic, more real time, more engaging with her fans.” We said, “Why don’t we take the technology that we built which is aggregating all this content from the different social channels.” The fact that she’s already being active on those social channels means that she can create that content on and directly it on her website. It’s a natural click and so when we realized that they’re problem was, they need their sites to be more engaging, dynamic, it was a difficult pain for them to continually create content. We could be that medium and that bridge that gap. it was a no brainer for them.
Andrew: Can you walk me through the questions again that you would ask to uncover that because it’s not easy to sit down and try to figure out what the customer’s pain is?
Tim: Absolutely, the first question I remember I asked was, “Why did you sign up for our platform? What were you looking for when you stumbled upon our platform? ” When you ask them what they’re looking for, really delve into what the problem they were trying to resolve when they were searching for a solution and stumbled upon the platform.
Andrew: I see, what’s the problem they were trying to solve when they signed up for this product? What else do you ask?
Tim: Firstly, you have to delve very deeply because they’ll be like, “Oh, we just wanted to do this.” “Well, you want to do this, why? Is it because you got in trouble last month [inaudible 00:19:13] from someone and you didn’t do a good job or is it because you just don’t have the money to do so and you need to find a quicker solution or is it because you just don’t have time to do it.” Figuring out exactly what that problem is was really key. For them, it was like time and resources. They only had a small dev team and they needed a solution, fast and easy one to a plug and play. We said, “Let’s build that in mind and quickly test if there’s other clients that would be interested in that as well.” That’s the original question, what other questions we asked was definitely, “What is that exact paying point? ” I also ask them, “Are you able to meet up with me in person.” I think an in-person conversation just 10 minutes would be the best thing because you definitely want to understand them one on one and have a conversation with them. Then the last thing is what I would do is, if I built this solution, would you be able to pay me $100 a month right now? Then I would stray away from the question, “Would you use this? ” I would say, “Would you pay for this? ”
Andrew: Would you pay for this.
Tim: Exactly. They say, “You make them uncomfortable.” It makes them think a little bit more too. Would they actually pay for this? It already takes a higher level to say, “Okay, we’ll pay for this.” And then if you’re really gutsy and you really want to see if your platform will perform or really solve their problem, you say, “Okay great, I’ll draft a contract up and let’s get this going.” If they’re really able to sign something even though you’re not going to ask for that money necessarily but just talk and say, “Hey we’re going to draft up this contract and go for with this.” If they do it, then you have yourself a first client already and you know what to build out now.
Andrew: Would you really charge 50 bucks if one person asked for it?
Tim: Well it depends on the price point and depends on the platform. Like for us, 50 bucks was about the right price point that I would say that made sense.
Andrew: Did you really charge the collective 50 bucks to create this product that they would use for Tony Braxton.
Tim: While we didn’t charge them because they were our first client and we said, “We’ll give it to your free for six months and we just want feedback from it. We want to have good close communication with you and if there’s any sort of questions we have, we have you at our disposal just so we get some feedback.” We took that and then leverage it to put into our client list, and say, “Look what we have now.” We still monetize it in a way but didn’t initially charge them for cash. I’m saying if we could redo it all over again and if I needed to bootstrap this next company, that’s what I would do.
Andrew: You would charge because it would bring in money and it would really tell you whether they cared about what you’re building.
Tim: If blocks out all the noise from people saying, “Oh, I use it.” and if they use it, one, they’ll probably use it, take it some resources, and ask you for support and take up your time and then not pay anything. You just wasted some sort of day or time. If they’re not going to pay you cash, find a way to monetize it, whether it would be a word of mouth referral to someone else or a close feedback loop to get some more insight into how you can make it better.
Andrew: Do you think it’s enough that they committed to putting it on one celebrity’s website?
Tim: I think so because it took the whole front page. Right when you land on TonyBraxton.com, we had a whole website take over. We had that much real estate. We realize they trusted us a lot. They have a couple of thousand.
Andrew: So they are committed, when they do that they have a lot of skin in the game.
Tim: Exactly. It really depends on the type of platform. If you’re talking about a back-end platform that’s not as consumer facing, obviously maybe not as risky but when it’s really consumer facing, they have a lot of trust and that’s for sure.
Andrew: What about this? If only one customer wants to use you, how do you know that this is a problem that has enough customers, enough potential customers out there?
Time: The first thing that comes into my mind is, I think Paul Gram said it which is, “It’s better to have ten users who absolutely love you rather than a hundred users that kind of like you.” When I think about that, I think about if this one user uses us, how engaged are they with us, how closely are they working with us [inaudible 00:23:35] about us, do they keep [inaudible 00:23:36] and keep [inaudible 00:23:38]. There’s one client I want to make sure that that client . . . I want to see how much they use it. If they don’t really use it then we have a problem. But if you see them constantly coming back, checking up on it and because they were, because this is a front facing website, they were constantly checking up on it. Obviously it means something really important to them. What I would do then, the first very next thing is once you see them really using it, all you ask is for one of two things. One is, if you really like the solution, go ahead and tweet it out or share it out, and tag us, and that’s it. I’ll give you a pre-template to share it out. If you don’t want to do that, here’s option two, here is an email template with my information and what we do. If you can maybe pass it on to three other colleagues in this industry that you think would absolutely appreciate it, I’d love to talk to them and share the success that you’ve had and really make look good. That’s the two things I did after I only found our first client [inaudible 00:24:36] then tap into their network because when you’re first starting, you don’t have any traction, the best thing to do is do is just ask for referrals because that’s a very relief for you.
Andrew: And you did get referrals.
Tim: Absolutely.
Andrew: Who went next?
Tim: The very next clients were . . . So they started rolling out to their other portfolio companies, the next one was Kelly Rowland from Destiny Girls . . . Destiny Child, sorry, I’m not really good with that ’90s band. Then it was Enrique Iglesias. They start rolling it out and we started tapping those client names, and then leveraging it to other opportunities that I started looking for as well. While, they started rolling out, they introduced us and they gave us contacts to the other entertainment big players like CAA, Willie Morris Endeavor.
Andrew: All these agencies had clients who’s websites were going stale or they didn’t want the sites to feel stale and then needed your software to keep it updated.
Tim: Exactly, so if anything there was also market timing as well because at that time in 2012, Social was booming. Everybody wanted to be on social. Everyone needed Social and so we leveraged that and capitalized on their and said, we make your websites social. That made a lot of sense to them.
Andrew: That’s pretty basic. How long did it take you to create that first version for Tony Braxton’s website?
Tim: Because we had the same technology form the consumer product, we took about one, one and half months to kind of re-purpose it and repackage it so that an enterprise client or a business B2B client can start using it.
Andrew: I’m on TonyBraxton.com right now. She’s not using.
Tim: That is gone now.
Andrew: Why? How did the market change since then?
Tim: Oh thank you, I appreciate you asking me that. She isn’t using it anymore because we realized after the while, the entertainment side wasn’t the market for us. The reason was they had no budget and they usually ask people to use their applications.
Andrew: Really?
Tim: When we found that out and we needed to keep our expenses or at least generate revenue to keep our bank account active, we said “Hey we’ve given in to you for this many months now. We’d like to get you to be a paying customer. Are you interested? ” For them it wasn’t. But at that time, we were lucky enough to have found enough traction that we were able to find out who or where our ideal customer profile.
Andrew: I see and so the next people you talked to, you say, “Hey if you like this, you have to pay for it.” You found a distribution partner. Who was that?
Tim: Yes, it was Wix.com which is a big CMS player, competitors to Tumblr, WordPress.
Andrew: How do you spell their name?
Tim: W-I-X.com.
Andrew: Oh, okay. I have them here at W-I-C-K-S which is not it. I know Wix , yes.
Tim: So it’s Wix.com, they have about a million new websites created every month right now on their platform. Yeah, I’m glad you asked that. The very next thing I said was, “After we found our first client, how do we find more? ” Leverage the word of mouth. Tap into our own network. But then what next? [inaudible 00:27:58] scale. We started saying, “What are some distribution partners we can tap into? ” I said, “Maybe we can tap into the CMS space.” We’re not a website builder nor are we a website take over. What we want to position our selves is a layer on top of your website or what we call, a social layer on top of your website. When that kind of was devised, we said, “Why don’t we tap into those website builders? ” We talked to Wix.com and at that time it was very fortuitous because they were just building out a new app store. Companies like us could build on their app store and offer an application to be embedded or displayed on their website. We launched that and in no time, we started seeing hundreds of downloads a day on that.
Andrew: Hundreds of websites a day were adding you to their site.
Tim: Yeah, that was so easy for distribution. It made it too easy. But we didn’t let it stay there. What I did was, again, I really wanted to focus on talking to customers. If that’s the theme this talk and that’s what I’m going to keep focusing on because when everyone started embedding it like hundreds a day, I was looking at our Google Analytics. I would see who embedded us and then I would go to their website, find it, screenshot it, find their email and email them, thanking them for embedding us.
Andrew: This is you personally doing it? Why did it have to come from you instead of a virtual assistant or someone?
Tim: Well, I wanted to make it very personal. Who gets a conversation from a CEO nowadays? Unless you are a start up now but I would say back then, they were like, “Who gets emails or direct conversation with the CEOs? ”
Andrew: So you did this hundreds of times.
Tim: Oh yeah, that was my whole day. In my early days, when my developers were working on continually building out the platform, all I was doing was customer happiness. They weren’t even real customers.
Andrew: No, they weren’t paying.
Tim: They weren’t paying but all I kept saying was, “Hey, thank you so much. This is fantastic. Do you mind if I share it out for other people to learn about it? ” They love that and that makes them feel like they’re part of the community. When I build that sort of community, you start getting a lot of word of mouth. When I kept that going, more and more people started finding us. I have a funny story, one of my best friends today found us through Wix. It was just funny. The amount of reach and distribution we got access to was phenomenal and I didn’t want to just take advantage of that or take it for grunted and I wanted to make sure that I did unscale the things, it was very tiring and cumbersome but it was so much well worth it because everything they gave back to me in terms of feedback was priceless.
Andrew: For example?
Tim: We just first build on Facebook and Twitter. They were like, “Hey, I would really, really want Instagram but not only Instagram but a lot of people are hash-tagging us. Can you consider building out that? We need a different type of template to make it look like a little different because I see a lot of websites are using it down and I don’t want to look like any other one [inaudible 00:30:57].” Then they said, “We need moderation but this type of moderation, we need it to not show any posts or content until I give the manual approval to do so. Have you considered that? ” Honestly, those Wix customers and even the customers today, the way we practice is that we don’t built out any of our road map. We typically just ask and blast out an email saying, “Hey this is what we’ve been hearing a lot from you guys. You guys want to help us rank what is most important for you guys? And then we’ll plan it accordingly for our road map.”
Andrew: This is what Nathan Zaru. Am I pronouncing Nathan’s last name right?
Tim: Yeah.
Andrew: I know he came over to the office here for scotch. Yeah, he came over to my house for poker. When he started working with you, he emailed me and said, “This guy built the company on his back and now I see what he means. This is a lot of work.” Who are these co-founders? Who are the people who are developing for you?
Tim: Yeah, I have two co-founders. One is named Nick and the other name is Rio. Fantastic guys, met him at USC. Nick, funny story was about to join another company and then I sent out an ad post randomly just sticking it around the campus at USC. While he was about to join another company, he just got rejected from another, I think it was Tulio or something. He was really angry. He saw this ad post and he came to me, he was like, “I want to prove to people that I can do it in the start-up world and I want to prove it to myself that I can make it.” We joined together and then Rio, we found [inaudible 00:32:28] mutual friend. Luckily enough, the dynamic of us have been very key and this is something that I guess want to stress and share with other entrepreneurs is that the co-founding team is 90% of the battle because if you guys can’t get yourself together and have constructive arguments with each other, it is so tough to continually to fight through the obstacles that we go through we today. Just because we’ve hit product market, it doesn’t mean it’s the end of the road because now, we’re just beginning to scale it out and grow out the company and get to thousands and thousands of customers. There’s a whole school of other problems that test everyone’s patience. Product market fit stage was very difficult and very . . .
Andrew: Let’s keep going with that because that is a painful thing. So far we’re getting a lot of work on your part. You’re building for your users. There are no customers. Where did you figure out what to charge for first?
Tim: Yeah. There was no right answer and I don’t think there’s any ever right answer for how you can perfect a pricing model, your first launch out, your application. The best thing you can do is maybe you can look at some reference points of some competitors and see from there and feel like what is most comfortable for you. But in the end, it’s a dirty test. What I mean by that is we actually went through five pricey models before we found the right one that works for us. The simple thing to do for a customer is just say, “Hey, we’re grandfathering you in. Don’t worry, we’re not going to charge you extra. Consider this a loyalty discount because you were with us since the beginning.” We did a dirty test. We just said we were going to have a $10 version and a $40 version. Just because it sound right and it sound like we can probably get some customers.
Andrew: And still keep free, plus 10, plus 40.
Tim: Premium model.
Andrew: Then you just have to figure out what do I put in to 10 and 40, and you’re saying you just made up the number 10 and 40?
Tim: Yeah, we did and there was no science behind it because we had so little data at that time. We can talk to some people and obviously some people would say, “Maybe $20 or something.” They’ll give us some feedback but in the end we made our gutsy call and just said, “We’re not going to dirty test this and we’re going to figure it out.” We launched that first version. We got a customer within the first day and we’re like, “Oh, that was kind of easy.” because we didn’t even expect a customer. A lot of first time entrepreneurs don’t even expect a paying customer until weeks or even months after they first launch.
Andrew: I know, I didn’t either when I started [inaudible 00:34:42] premium, first of all I didn’t turn it on someone and [inaudible 00:34:46] turn it on and I would never thought that a customer would come in just because it was on and then people came. What was the flow that somebody would have to go through before or what did they have to do to figure out that you guys were charging and then start paying you?
Tim: Yeah, we made the pricing page very noticeable in the front. We made sure that there was a trial mode and people can still get a free version but they would have to upgrade to get the more premium features.
Andrew: So somebody installed the plug-in I guess to Wix. At that point, would they see that there was a paid version?
Tim: Yeah, they would see, oh, so the biggest thing that they wanted to do was, they wanted to add more fees. They want to add more hashtags to their site. We block them on two of them and that gives them a good teaser, a good understanding of what we do and if they want more then it would prompt them to upgrade.
Andrew: Feed for you guys is an app or a hashtag?
Tim: It could be either. If it’s an app, it’s a hashtag, it’s a paid channel, whatever you want to call it. It’s just one those. . . anytime.
Andrew: So I can say I want anything #startups and anything from [@mixergy] but wouldn’t want it all to go there, I want a little bit of moderation. You guys make it easy for me to send it out and you’re saying, “All right, well great, two for free. If you want seven of them then you’ll pay.” And that’s what you decided would be the line where between pay and free.
Tim: Exactly, the biggest thing was going to be the number of feeds. The next thing was, some people hate us for this but this is a big lesson that I learned. It’s like charge on the value you provided, not necessarily the expense you incur. What I mean by that is, the biggest feature that everybody needed and wanted was moderation. Obviously, no one wants to showcase a naughty picture or something that bad on their website through a hashtag, so they wanted moderation. What we did was, we made the moderation in more of a higher [inaudible 00:36:41]. At that time, they can only moderate content when they paid upwards of $200, $300 to $500.
Andrew: A year?
Tim: A month.
Andrew: A month. I see and so that’s why people were upset.
Tim: They were a little upset and unfortunately due to our history we didn’t raise a series A funding. We weren’t able to because, call it my lack of of pitching skills or . . .
Andrew: No, let’s get into that actually. That is an issue. That’s something that kept you up at night. What happened?
Tim: Yeah, that kept me up at night. I remember I was working overtime. During the day, I would talk to our customers doing that mass email. But then the other half of the day would be pitching investors who are trying to secure a meeting. Like I said, I was a first time entrepreneur. We had some good contacts.
Andrew: You already had funding?
Tim: We had funding.
Andrew: How much?
Tim: We raised $350,000. We were approaching our end of the runway. We had six months of runway before I started fundraising and I started fundraising, got a good amount of meetings. I don’t know if it was a lack of pitching or pitching skills or first time entrepreneurship experience. Whatever it was, I couldn’t convey the potential that we had or as the potential that I saw that we had. We were cutting close to about four months of runway left before I was like, “Well guys, we’d have to do something because none of the investors were [inaudible 00:38:02].” At that time, that exact day that I came back from my last meeting. I said, we need to do something and the only thing that we can do right now to survive is to [inaudible 00:38:12] our prices. Literally, all we did was we went to the pricing page and added a zero to the prices and pushed the moderation to the higher end tier because we knew people needed the moderation. Then we just let it go. We push it to production and just said, “Let’s wait and see because this is the only thing we can do now to survive.”
Andrew: You are weeks away from death. A company would . . .
Tim: We were four months away from [inaudible 00:38:38] the cash, and no money in the bank, and no more cash. Literally, within the next few days, we got tons of backlash emails like, “You guys are dirty.”, “You guys changed your pricing.”, “You guys changed it to moderation.”. We just said, “Look, we’re sorry. We can’t do anything because this is for us to survive and we need to survive. We believe that the value we can provide for you is there and I will personally service you to make sure that you’re getting that value at.” Slowly, we got some people to purchase our $500 a month plan. And then, the long story short, within two months, we had two months of runaway left. We hit break-even point and that break-even point was five months into launching the product. We launched it and in January of 2013, we started charging people in February of 2013, and we hit break-even on May have 2013.
Andrew: Eventually, people did pay these prices.
Tim: They did pay the prices.
Andrew: Because somebody used the product though without moderation and actually use a hashtag.
Tim: Well, see that’s their call and that’s the risk that they have. The smaller plan was to tease them into saying, “Hey this is what you should be purchasing which is at the $500 plan because this is very valuable for you. This is what’s going to provide a lot of content for you and potentially a lot more engagement and conversions from your audiences.”
Andrew: Bill Gross was an investor, am I right?
Tim: Yeah, that’s correct.
Andrew: Howard Marks.
Tim: That’s correct.
Andrew: Why didn’t these guys at least do a follow up?
Tim: Their role was they didn’t do any follow ups. They emphasized that in the beginning.
Andrew: They said we’re only going to give you this money.
Tim: We only do [inaudible 00:40:16] but we don’t do follow ups. They stressed that but they said, “Hey, we’ll introduce you to any follow-up investors that we have good contacts with.” They definitely helped out a lot. Don’t get me wrong.
Andrew: And so then what happened? Be open. What happened, do you believe that kept you from raising?
Tim: I went into maybe seven or eight investors and I pitched my heart out and I said, “Hey, this is what we’re doing. This what I see our potential would become. Would you be interested in investing in us? ” I still can’t put my finger on it if it was the lack of traction, my pitching ability or my experience because it was my first venture. Maybe it was a combination of all three that didn’t get them to [bite]. Or maybe it’s because I was in San Francisco and we were competing against Big Fish around this area where you have founders who had done it many, many times or sold companies, or founders who are drop outs at Stanford, or . . .
Andrew: There are a lot of first time founders who raised money. You don’t know what it is but it ended up working out for the best because by raising prices, you suddenly had a company that was profitable and self-sustaining. Did you raise money afterwards?
Tim: We have not raised any money since and we are approaching close to four million AR now.
Andrew: Four million what?
Tim: AR. Annual recurring revenue.
Andrew: Annual recurring revenue, four million bucks.
Tim: Yeah.
Andrew: Is it profitable to how much, how much profit did you make in 2014?
Tim: 2014 was about 600.
Andrew: Wow.
Tim: Yeah, we grew up really fast.
Andrew: Develop beyond the product as we describe it. Let’s continue then with the development which helps you but they weren’t the only source of customers. What else did you do to get customers?
Tim: Yeah, we did a lot of content marketing. We blogged everything we learned. Anything from start-up tips, entrepreneurial hacks to social media advice.
Andrew: What about the one about how to get email addresses for anyone?
Tim: Check.
Andrew: What was that?
Tim: That one was me. I wrote a blog post called “How to get any email address in under two minutes.” And it was a hack that is pretty popular now but I kind of packaged into a way that it was easy to consume. It was kind of a combination of Gmail, Reportive, and then good guessing. This is good guessing because I’ve done it many times with, how did I find Mark [Hughman’s] email to [inaudible 00:42:44] email, that’s what I did. We did a lot of content marketing. Anything that I learned that I could share with others that I feel like they could learn from, I did it. That’s sort of picking up because they loved that content because it was so honest and so transparent. They started sharing it around. We got a word of mouth. And then our blogs content would be on Quora or on Reddit or on Hacker News and we just get more exposure, more visible.
Andrew: I do see that even to this day, Quora is a big source of traffic for you of all the social networks.
Tim: It is. We post all our blog posts to specific questions that people ask about the topics that I blog about. I post it all on there very transparently. I don’t ask for any traffic or any links or shares. I just say, “This is our answer. I’m the founder of so and so of Tint and here.”
Andrew: And you don’t post the link and say, “Hey I wrote about this on my site, go over there.”
Tim: No, I post the whole blog content.
Andrew: Post the whole blog post and you’re still writing. I see here . . . well not as often as you use to.
Tim: Not as often because tasks and roles have shifted in now. Real quick when in 2014, we started from four people and now we’re at 22. Being shifted, I need to do a lot more managerial tasks or what I call, cheer-leading, just making sure everyone has goals and are excited to achieve them and really make this company somewhere that a lot of people are excited to work at now.
Andrew: Interesting actually, where would you come up with these ideas? It’s just something that you did and so you blog about it?
Tim: A lot of is business practices. The most recent one that I wrote that got a lot of clicks and lot of reads was how we got rid of sales commissions and we switched it to what we call, monthly team profit sharing bonuses. Because we’re profitable, we reinvest 20% of that profit back into the company as bonuses for everybody. We took away commissions and I blogged about that. Tons of people were like, “Wow, that’s something I’ve never heard about. That’s interesting advice and interesting learning. Let me go share this to other people.” Brand awareness gets out.
Andrew: I see it here. Our start up got rid of sales commissions with monthly team bonuses plus formula.
Tim: Yeah, and I share the formula as well so people can actually apply it if they were interested in practicing it.
Andrew: What do you do to promote it once you’ve written it?
Tim: Yeah, we have all our teammates shared on their social media but we focus a lot on our own email list [blast] that we have. We have our own contacts. And then Quora is a big one. Look for any questions about sales commission and I looked for that and I post . . .
Andrew: Your own email list meaning all people who signed up for the free version?
Tim: That’s correct. I would definitely recommend everybody to put those users into a trip email campaign or unto your marketing list so that you can tap into that potential net traffic for any new blog content committed.
Andrew: We talked about Nathan a moment ago. I’m so surprised, number one that he got the username Yes on Twitter. That’s fantastic.
Tim: He has a really funny story about that too later.
Andrew: What is it?
Tim: I believe there was someone who wanted that username and he got it first, and Jack Dorsey was emailing him to try to get it from him. There was a little dispute. His little claim to fame started with that is like, I argued with jack Dorsey about my username.
Andrew: [inaudible 00:46:14]. The second thing about it is, the guy’s got only about 2,000 followers. I would think people would follow yes, just because.
Tim: To be fair, he does get a lot of spam at mentions.
Andrew: I bet.
Tim: Because people really find that handle very popular.
Andrew: You know what, and he tweets good stuff, people should follow him.
Tim: Absolutely, a lot of growth hacking, content marketing advice there.
Andrew: One of the people who read one of your articles, the one about how to find anyone’s email address in under two minutes, happen to work at NASDAQ. No?
Tim: Maybe.
Andrew: Yeah, here’s what I got in my research. Big customer NASDAQ came to us because of our content marketing. It was about how to find any email address in under two minutes. It was very popular. As a result, we got on to NASDAQ and NASDAW put us on the Jumbotron. Are you guys on the Jumbotron?
Tim: We are on the Jumbotron.
Andrew: You are. That means what?
Tim: That means anytime they have a company that IPOs there, they use the Jumbotrons in Time Square to display our product with their unique hashtag for that specific IPO.
Andrew: I see.
Tim: Every client that goes through them, they use a tint now onto their big Jumbotron.
Andrew: That’s how they send all the conversations that people are having on social media that they moderate and approve to their Jumbotron.
Tim: Exactly.
Andrew: [inaudible 00:47:37]. The reason why vaguely remember was we closed the NASDAQ almost two years ago. They were one of our earlier clients too. They were one of our biggest first clients aside from Dallas Cowboys. But I can only imagine that our content marketing was a big fuel and engine for that because we weren’t doing any advertising, we weren’t doing any conferences or outreach or outbalance strategy.
I was just on my email, making sure that I answer all the inquiries coming in and one day, NASDAQ came in and say, “Hey, we have an interesting idea. We want to probably use your application or can you walk me through it? ” And I said, “Heck yeah.” By no time were on the Jumbotron and that was. I think you saw that note because it was that moment when we saw the Jumbotron example on my computer screen when they emailed it to me, I was like, “Whoa, we may have a potential here because they’re willing to trust us in front of millions of people in Times Square. To see this, I think that’s another avenue we can explore now.” We started tapping into digital out of home . . .
Andrew: So before that, you didn’t go outside of a webpage. Before that, the only users were people who signed up for your software and put it on their sites. It wasn’t about display at restaurants like I see today.
Tim: Exactly, it was just on website. That’s how we saw it at first and that’s how we device the problem first and it was like websites are static, we can make it social. We built our culture onto people and our customers telling us what they see [inaudible 00:49:04] them. They have all the answers. Just tap into it and you’ll find them.
We started getting inquiries like, “Hey, can we use this at our event.” TechCrunch came to us, “Can we use this at TechCrunch disrupt and we’ll put you as a social media sponsor? ” and we did that.
Andrew: So that means, do it for free but we’ll give you some recognition at the event.
Tim: Exactly, and that gave us so much legitimacy though. Everyone knows the TechCrunch brand especially in the digital agencies part of music. We leveraged that and said, “Look, this is who we worked with. They trust us. We had great relationships with them. We can do the same thing with you guys.” We just keep leveraging all the content that people give us and the examples they give us, and we keep leveraging it for other closing opportunities.
Andrew: I could have sworn that I also saw you guys at The Crepe House and Zaytune. Zaytune is the falafel place. The Crepe House is just a great place to hang out on Valencia or to sit and work frankly or watch a soccer game on Valencia. What I saw there was, a big screen that I thought was owned by Tint that had images of social media shares or what people said. Do you guys own your own screens?
Tim: We don’t own our own screens. That might be a competitor of ours. I feel like it might be a competitor of ours because we just provide the software side of things. But the main point is you probably understand the value that it provides for these clients now. You area at a cafe and you are studying or you buy something, and you’re eating, and you’re like, “Wow this is amazing.” You’re going to share it on social and there you go right there on the TV. What the brand is doing is leveraging, and reusing, and re-purposing all the content that you’re creating with.
Andrew: Is that something that you’re doing with if a restaurant wanted to show off photos of it’s food to people, post it on Instagram.
Tim: I mention them and they’ll show up on there. You can hash tag them and you’ll show up there. You can even check-in to their location with the photo.
Andrew: So what’s the point? Why would somebody say, “Hey, you know what I’m going to pay for a screen.”, what does the screen go for it today?
Tim: Maybe 300 bucks.
Andrew: So I have to pay 300 bucks for a flat screen and then they have to pay couple of bucks, maybe 200 bucks for what, a Chrome browser, right? A Chrome box?
Tim: Yeah, a Chromecast.
Andrew: Oh, a Chromecast, so even cheaper.
Tim: It’s $35 for a Chromecast. They don’t actually have to hook up a computer to it. That’s the beauty of our platform as well.
Andrew: I see.
Tim: And then the software, the subscription model software. The value that we tell them every time is you can put on your TV displays. Within the same package, you can put on your TV displays, you can put on your websites. You can put on your mobile site. You can put it on any event projectors that you launch. Any digital property, we can do it for you. That’s the value ad but the main thing that they really like is that they can take everything that all the noise and conversations are sharing about them, unify it, organize it in one display and then help people engage with it more. Help people build that trust with them more because when you’re when you have to step into a restaurant or you land on a website, the last first thing you want is, can you trust this brand that you’re about to purchase from or be a customer with.
Andrew: All right, so now I see first is you reaching out to your existing users. That’s had helped you figure out what your product was and helped you how to get more users and eventually customers hopefully. Then you went to Wix, Wix got you a whole lot more users. You converted some of them into customer by creating a three-tiered system. Then NASDAQ comes around. My research still says, I don’t know if it’s a hundred percent right, that they saw one of your post and they decided that they were going to use you on the big screen. It’s gigantic, it takes up the whole building. Call it a Jumbotron, it puts a small image in people’s mind, it’s gigantic.
Tim: It’s huge.
Andrew: Right? It’s huge. I saw it on Flickr, you guys link over to Flickr photos. Great, that opened up a whole new market. Where does the next big milestone users and customers come from for you guys? Where did it come from after that?
Tim: From there, so we built a lot of trust and then when we started realizing, “Hey, we’re not just able to do it on websites, we can tap into digital out of home screens. We can tap into projector walls. We can tap into TV screens.”That’s when we started realizing, “Wow, we actually have some potential here. And let’s build our product to become the easiest self service platform that people like you and I, without any technical expertise but have an idea like this to be able to implement that. We’ve been refining ever since [inaudible 00:53:24] the product to make it just that damn simple for you to launch what we call, a social wall or a social display for your brand.
Andrew: How do you know big a market this is?
Tim: I wouldn’t. There’s no really where a six billion dollar market and we’re going to tap into one percent of it. We just know there’s still a lot of potential. The reason I say that is one, 90% of our business is still inbound. We had about four million in our last year. We’re looking to and we [FiveX] our team now and so we’re going really strong efforts on outbound now. We’re doing another big milestone that we’re looking to achieve is like tapping into some other industries, focusing on e-commerce brands, focusing on hospitality brands, focusing on travel brands. These industries all leverage a lot of social media content, and if we can provide that source for them, that’d be great.
Andrew: How do you reach out to them? How do you get hospitality brand meaning hotel?
Tim: Yeah, we go to a lot of conferences and trade shows now. Just last month, there was an ICSC, International Conference of Shopping Centers. Shopping centers’ is another big one. We also do a lot of social media week. We’re going to be one of their sponsors for this upcoming one in February so they have a lot of social media strategist, and social media consultants, and social media strategists all there, so we try to acquire customers through their. We go into specific vertical conferences and then what we do is we sponsor them by giving our product completely for free for the whole year and we get a booth. We get to power their whole screen at the event and all we do for conversations is when someone comes up to us and say, “Hey, what do you do?” We say, “Hey, do you see that screen with all the social content right there. Yeah, your post is probably up there. That’s what we do.”
Andrew: What a great formula. How much would they have to pay if they decided to do it themselves to say, “You know what, we’re not going to give you a booth, we’re going to pay.” How much would they pay?
Tim: It can range from 500 to maybe a thousand up wards to maybe . . .
Andrew: For the event.
Tim: Yeah.
Andrew: To how much beyond a thousand?
Tim: Maybe 2,000.
Andrew: What do they get for 2,000 bucks?
Tim: What we provide is the number of feeds they want to aggregate. Do they want to aggregate from all their sponsors content as well? Do they want real time updates because they want real time, we pay them the networks quicker for more expenses. And then we obviously offer higher premium support for them. From there we help them also strategize some great ideas that they may forgotten. Because we work through so many campaigns, so many activations, we have a lot of great ideas that we’d like to pass on.
Andrew: What’s a good idea for a conference that gets more people to tweet?
Tim: Yeah, what we usually say is like the hashtag to win concept. Instead of saying, “Use this hashtag and tell us what you’re up to.” Say, “Hey, go find someone that you met and really enjoy. Use this hashtag and then the best story, or the funniest story, or the most entertaining story with that post will win free tickets to the next conference.”That’s just tons of free publicity for them because everybody will have fun with it. They hashtag to win. No emails, no friction in there, and it’s all the same behavior. And then when they share it out, all their networks, and all their followers are seeing this hashtag and are curious to see what this event is or what is this conference all about.
Andrew: What share of your business comes from live in person versus online websites?
Tim: I’d say the online website business is about 60 and the other side, 40. It was skewed more for 80-20 before but more and more were seeing sports stadiums, mall centers, digital out of home companies, leveraging their digital displays. You can imagine that digital display is similar to website. It’s static. It’s difficult to update content on. You don’t know what to update content on. Update content with, so we can provide this easy plug and play solution that updates dynamically, no effort necessary except moderating it, and all this content is pretty free because your users are doing it for you. Your audience are doing it for your. Now, you just take out the whole necessity of creating content like hiring people to do this, hiring people to do that, and paying so much money. Just run a fun contest. A lot of tourism brands run fun contests, say like, “Hey, show us your best photo while you visit us and next trip on us.”It’s the same marketing dollars that they will spend otherwise to do advertisement but this is in such a much more engaging and enriching for their audiences that they truly enjoy.
Andrew: Look at how far you’ve come just by making these phone calls to your customers. This really is problem first and you’re solving it both with technology and also with ideas for how to use that technology.
Tim: Absolutely, the easiest thing I always say is, you don’t know the answers. Your audience and your customers know the answer, and just find a way to go up to them and ask them, and you’ll get the right answers, and build exactly what you need to build for them.
Andrew: Well, this is an inspiring story. I told you before we started, I’ve really been looking forward to talking to you because this story is just unreal. You talked to Jeremy [inaudible 00:58:50], you did a pre-interview with him. I just absorbed every bit of that pre-interview research from him. It’s fantastic. Because this is a story that . . . especially the way you told Jeremy that you’re up nights, that you’re sweating these investors that one of them apparently was into you but not that into you.
Tim: That’s exactly right.
Andrew: It’s like they don’t even think it’s good enough and what do I do? Maybe it’s not good enough but you just increase your prices and because it was such a need for people who were willing to pay. The company now is doing fantastically. Congratulations.
Tim: Thank you so much. I appreciate it and I hope that this story or the little hacks, or the little advice that I’ve been able to share to day will be helpful for your listeners.
Andrew: You know what, let me ask you this. Since you kept wanting to make this really practical and useful, that’s why I asked you what specifically you asked for your earlier users, what you would have done differently and so on. Let’s close out with this. If somebody were to listen to this and say, “I’m going to call potential customers or people who enter their email address on my site because they wanted to be a user and I’m going to find out from them what I need to do.” If they did it the way you did it, what’s one mistake that they might make that you could help them avoid?
Tim: I would say it’s never a lost opportunity until they say, “No, go away.” Obviously, respect their time and respect to their space. So many fortuitous opportunities that we’ve been able to capitalize on was through an accidental mistake where we’re just talking and they said, “Oh, did you ever think about like this? ” and I’m like, “Do you want to help with this? Do you know anybody that knows this? “And they say, “Oh yeah, let me just introduce you to so and so.” I would never give up on any opportunity until it’s a flat out, “No, go away.” and then on the flip end, I would take every opportunity and see where are ways that I can capitalize on this? Because there’s just so many stories that I have throughout these past few years or it’s like, I was just emailing with them, talking with them and then they say, “Hey, I love your product. I love how you approach me. I know someone who will really like this. Let me go and introduce you to them.” That just keeps rolling on, rolling forward, and it’s just amazing. One mistake I would hope to have anyone avoid is to not just dismiss any sort of opportunity and you think it’s a small one. Always try to be creative in any opportunity that you think about and keep persevering until it’s a flat out no.
Andrew: It’s a flat out, “No, go away kid. You’re bothering me.”Until then, you can keep learning form them and figure out what to [build] them.
Tim: Especially when you’re in the growth phase and product market case. IF you need to figure out your answers, that’s what it takes to figure it out.
Andrew: Well, again, congratulations on your success. Thanks so much for coming on here to tell your story. It’s been great.
Tim: I really appreciate it and if anybody has any questions, please let met know.
Andrew: What’s a good way for them to contact you?
Tim: You can @Twitter me @TimSaeKoo T-I-M-S-A-E-K-O-O or what I usually [inaudible 01:01:51] with is, just give me your email address because I love talking with entrepreneurs. It’s Tim@tintup.com T-I-M-AT-T-I-N-T-U-P-DOT-COM.
Andrew: And I’m going to add my part to it which is to say, look if you guys are going to email him, everyone else might start off by asking for something. The best way to start a relationship is by saying, “Hey, I heard your interview. Thanks so much for and saying what you got out of it.” And then later on, you [inaudible 01:02:11] in the back and ask for help. I’m going to say it right now, thanks so much for doing this interview.
Tim: I appreciate it. You’re very welcome and thank yo so much for this opportunity as well.
Andrew: Thank you all for being a part of it. Bye everyone.
