Andrew: Hey, everyone. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses.
When I don’t do these interviews, if my wife and I have any time and just watch TV, there’s a good chance that I’m going to pop some popcorn. I go to the grocery store, I get some kernels, I put them in a pot and I actually pop them myself, which I never would have thought I would do except my wife is kind of a hippie and she believes in making it all from scratch.
So, since it’s such a part of my life, if you would have come to me and said, “Hey, Andrew, I’ve got a new idea for a new business. We’re going to make popcorn, sell it on the shelves of grocery stores. We’re going to make millions.” I would have said to you, “Anyone can make it at home. How are you going to get anyone to buy this thing? I don’t think it’s going to work.” But I’d have been wrong because it is working. That’s pretty much what today’s guest is doing except she’s making her popcorn gourmet with — well, let me introduce her first.
Her name is Cassandra Stavrou. She is the founder of Propercorn. It’s gourmet popcorn with flavors like fiery Worcestershire sauce and sundried tomato. My mouth is actually literally watering as I said that. Did you pick up on that? I have to just take a moment here with it. We want to find out how she came up with the idea, how she built it up, how she’s getting so many people to buy popcorn off the shelves and what’s making the business so special.
This interview is sponsored by two companies that I’ll tell you about later. The first will help you hire your next great developer. It’s called Toptal. And the second will help you actually get people on the phone with you if you’re trying to meet them. It’s called Acuity Scheduling. But first, Cassandra, welcome.
Cassandra: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nice to meet you.
Andrew: Good to meet you too. What kinds of revenues are you guys doing with Propercorn?
Cassandra: So, last year, we turned in around £10 million.
Andrew: $10 million U.S.?
Cassandra: No, sterling. So a little bit more U.S., but not much more.
Andrew: More U.S.
Cassandra: Sorry?
Andrew: What were you saying? It was more than U.S., but you’re saying the pound is losing some value to the US, losing ground.
Cassandra: Exactly.
Andrew: Are you in the U.S.? You are, aren’t you?
Cassandra: No, we’re not in the U.S. at the moment.
Andrew: Okay.
Cassandra: It is a potential plan. We are focusing on Europe currently. So we’re in about 12 countries around Europe.
Andrew: What’s your favorite flavor?
Cassandra: It depends on my mood, actually. But at the moment, it’s probably peanut butter and almond. That was a real labor of love. So I’m really proud of that one.
Andrew: You know what? As I was giving my intro and talking about how I make popcorn at home and wondering if I could actually make a business, I was looking at your face and I thought I saw like disappoint in you, like, “Andrew, come on, you don’t get it.” Was there anything like that, or am I imagining it?
Cassandra: Well, when I was first trying to get the—
Andrew: No, as I was talking about it. Did it feel insulting for me to say, “Anyone can make popcorn at home. How is this woman building a business off of popcorn?”
Cassandra: No. Absolutely not. I think that’s the beauty of popcorn in that everyone has grown up with memories of popcorn. Everyone gets it. You can make it at home. You can’t season it in a way that we season it and it’s not on the go, which is part of the point of our business.
Andrew: Right.
Cassandra: But that’s a great thing. Everyone understands popcorn.
Andrew: Yeah. And we all know that unless they’re cheating somehow by adding stuff to it — sometimes people do — it’s going to be healthy. I get it. I get the attraction of it. I also get you as an entrepreneur. Our producer, Arie, asked you a little bit about your background and you said, “You know what? I’ve been an entrepreneur for pretty much my whole life, started thinking about business at the age of 14, actually had a yogurt company, ran an events business.” What was the yogurt company?
Cassandra: So no, that one didn’t actually see the light of day.
Andrew: These were just ideas that were going through your head?
Cassandra: So, yeah. I used to do some events at the university, and I guess I’ve always wanted to run my own business. I think to a certain extent, we’re all armchair entrepreneurs. We all have ideas every day and we’re like, “Wouldn’t it be amazing if this existed? Wouldn’t it be amazing if this happened?” The difference between that and a business is sort of getting up off the chair and doing it. I had an idea for a frozen yogurt company that I called Yeti and wrote the business plan. But it never saw the light of day.
Andrew: Why not?
Cassandra: I think the difference between that and the other ideas and Propercorn, I think a couple of things, first, the timing, both personally and in the market felt absolutely right. And then secondly, a little bit of serendipity in how the idea came about that gave me the conviction to quit my job and give this one a go.
Andrew: Why did you have a job? You got a law degree. Why did you get a law degree? Why did you go into the ad business? Why did you work in an ad agency? You’re a woman that had all these ideas. What was it about that that drew you to getting a job instead of starting one of these business ideas that you kept kicking around in your head?
Cassandra: So, firstly, I’m sort of a contradiction. So when I was trying to choose my degree, it was either going to be finance or law, which just seems so ridiculous, but I guess the law degree was the good degree to go. If everything goes wrong, at least you can fall back on it. While trying to think of what my business is going to be, I hadn’t quite got there yet, so actually having one or two years in the world of work is a brilliant way to start because it just teaches you a little bit about work ethic or what an office environment is like. A lot of that experience I’ve taken on and plugged into my own business.
Andrew: Like what? What’s an example of something you learned when you were working at an ad agency or when you were in the law?
Cassandra: It’s the really simple things that are quite obvious now, but when you’ve never worked before, you don’t even appreciate it. We have a weekly status meeting as a company where every department will present what they’re doing. That’s something that I picked up from my first job.
Andrew: Right.
Cassandra: Just email etiquette. So many people go straight into a job and how they’re writing emails day one versus six months in, you just pick up a certain vernacular, a certain way of doing things. So it’s just professionalizing yourself a little bit before going on to start the company. I think it was really valuable for me. I don’t think it’s a prerequisite. I don’t think you have to work before starting a business. It just helped me.
Andrew: All right. So then you started to say you noticed something. There was a shift in the market. 2009, what did you notice?
Cassandra: I guess, as I’m sure a lot of people can relate to, I noticed that at 3:00 every day there’s that post-lunch afternoon slump. Rewinding to seven years ago now, I would notice that everyone would either go and buy a chocolate bar and feel really guilty about it and chastise themselves or they’d get a healthy snack and feel really dissatisfied and go and buy the chocolate bar anyway.
So I really wanted to create a snack that was genuinely tasty, had lots of flavor on it, felt really satisfying, you’re not just getting four or five little things in the bottom of the pack, but then didn’t leave you feeling guilty. I felt that popcorn was a really exciting product because of what we spoke about before. It’s not so niche that people don’t understand what it is. Everyone has grown up eating popcorn at some point.
It’s just about repositioning it. I saw that as a really exciting challenge. I think the final piece for me was that a lot of the slightly more guilt-free snacks that were on the market tended to be packaged up in quite sterile packaging, quite clinical.
Andrew: Give me an example of something that you saw that was too sterile.
Cassandra: I have a rule that I would never speak badly about another—
Andrew: Don’t mention the name.
Cassandra: Just some of those snacks where it’s sort of repackaged cardboard rice cake style with not a huge amount of flavor on them, white packaging, very, very strong health messaging, but no color, no flavor. It felt like a compromise, and that was really important from day one was to create a snack where it didn’t feel like there was a compromise.
Andrew: Weren’t there popcorn brands already in the grocery store? You’re not in the U.S., but there are tons of popcorn options in my grocery store.
Cassandra: Absolutely. I think popcorn isn’t a new thing. That’s part of it. The innovation is the way that we season it, the way that we reduce the oil so that the calorie content is lower, the way that we make sure we use only the best quality corn. It’s all the other, I guess, things that we do to the corn to really make it the best it can possibly be.
Andrew: I guess what I don’t see is flavored popcorn. In fact, I actually think that people miss out completely on popcorn because they just have it the same way with nothing but butter. At home, we’ll put turmeric on our popcorn or put what is it called curry powder on it, all those little things that make it taste so interesting, nutritional yeast on it. Right. I see. You know the other thing I noticed that was happening around the same time? Gluten-free seemed to be a thing. Suddenly Chex, a cereal in the U.S., started to get more sales because they said they were gluten-free. Did you notice the same thing and did that impact your decision?
Cassandra: Absolutely. We definitely look very closely at the U.S. at some of the snacking trends that are coming through. They kind of follow into the U.K. quite quickly and are funneled out to the rest of Europe. Gluten-free is a huge trend and popcorn ticks that box. On the go, convenience is another big trend in terms of shifting lifestyles. Popped popcorn ticks that box. So it was really looking at what are the key trends that are coming through in the market and how can we deliver a snack that really satisfies and meets all those new expectations.
Andrew: So then you quit your job in advertising. Why quit your job? Why not say, “I’ll do this in the evenings?”
Cassandra: Because I’m, I guess, impatient and I guess not very risk averse. Yes, perhaps I should have done, but as soon as you feel as passionate about an idea as I did, I knew that I had to absolutely go for it. There’s not kind of half-heartedness about starting a business. There comes a point where it’s always going to be a risk, but you have to be prepared to jump in feet first.
Andrew: You moved back in with your mom. You took a temp job after that. You worked at a pub. You did painting work.
Cassandra: Yes.
Andrew: Did you feel at all—I’m reading the book “Kingpin” about the founder of Silk Road. He feels so bad about his life in the early part of the book because he’s living basically I think in his mom’s house, his career is going nowhere, and he’s embarrassed to tell his friends what he’s doing. Did you feel any of that?
Cassandra: Absolutely. Some of the toughest moments were in those initial couple of years trying to set the business up. I thought I could do it in six months. Invariably, it always takes much longer than you think it will. It was really tough not being able to socialize with my friends in the way that they all had a steady income.
I think also just the concept as you started off the interview, sort of saying to my grandma in Cypress, “So I’m not doing law. I’m actually starting a popcorn company,” and just the concept of that. I think she imagined me sort of standing on the side of the road with the chestnut selling guy and couldn’t get her head around the concept. I think, yeah, there were definitely some really challenging times, so much so that that actually led me to join forces with my dear friend, Ryan, and we launched the business together.
Andrew: And that’s when things took off, from what I understand, that’s when you really started to get some traction.
Cassandra: Yes. We launched the business five and a half years ago and, amazingly, our first customer was Google. So we had a friend who worked at Google. I don’t know if you know much about their offices there. I’m sure you do. They free issue all of their food and snacks. So you’ve got a really captive audience. Everyone understands Google. We were very fortunate. You need someone to take a bit of a punt. You need that initial customer to say, “I don’t need to see the sales data. I’m going to give you a lower minimum order quantity and take that leap of faith.” We’re really lucky that Google was that answer.
And out of 48 snacks that they were free issuing to their team, Propercorn was very quickly their fastest-moving. My advice to anyone who is looking to sort of launch any kind of product, having that hero first customer was a brilliant starting point for us because we were able to go to the rest of the market and say, “We’ve got brilliant evidence of our sales and it’s coming from Google,” who everyone understands and looks to as a leader. It was a brilliant first step to us. That really kickstarted our momentum and was very quickly followed by lots of—
Andrew: I think most new food companies think, “How do I get into the big grocery stores?” It’s interesting that you thought, “How do I get into Google first?” I think there’s an opportunity there. Companies like Google want to bring in something new, want to bring in something different and healthy.
I think the founder of Hint, who I talked to at a conference recently and she’ll be on Mixergy soon, did the same thing, Hint Water. She went to the tech startups and she figured, “If I can sell to them, I get big orders all at once and then I get credibility because these are the people who are now setting the pace for what people want to do in the world,” right? I see how you did that.
I imagine that part of what got people to open up those bags of Propercorn was the packaging. You told our producer, “I took £10,000 of my own money and I put it into product development and a large part of that went into the packaging.” When you got the first package, what did you think?
Cassandra: So, yeah, exactly that. I worked with a very talented packaging designer and really took a leap of faith. Packaging is so important. You imagine you’re in a store where you have maybe two seconds to capture someone’s attention. They haven’t tried it yet, so you really have to stand out. So I knew it was so important to get it right. They did a great job, but it didn’t feel me and it didn’t feel right.
I think that’s so important. You have to stick to your guns. It was a really important lesson that you don’t always need to go default to the experts. A lot of that initial gut feel is right. So I decided to actually take £6,000, essentially put it in the bin and designed the packaging myself on PowerPoint. And my friend, who is an illustrator—
Andrew: Really? What was wrong with the one that you spent £6,000 on?
Cassandra: I think if you follow the rules of design, there was nothing that wrong with it.
Andrew: Describe it for me. Maybe I’ll get a sense of what you didn’t like about it or describe what you didn’t like about it.
Cassandra: I felt like it didn’t capture the passion and creativity of the brand and it’s going to be so central to the companies we grew, which I really wanted to get across to the consumer, so making sure it felt like lots of thought had gone into it, that it felt really colorful and bold that when you walk down that shelf and you want to pick something up that you’re proud to be seen with. I really wanted the brand to feel a bit more like a lifestyle brand than your typical food brand.
So a lot of the inspiration we’ve always taken comes outside of our immediate category, and we look at what’s happening in design, what’s happening in art, what’s happening in fashion and then trying to reflect that in our color choices and the illustration that we put on the packaging. I wanted it to be something that you were really proud to be seen with.
Andrew: I get that. It does have that kind of homemade feel, kind of artistic vibe. And you did all that, the first version on PowerPoint?
Cassandra: Yeah. We’ve evolved the brand, as you would imagine, over the past five and a half years. That initial look and feel has pretty much stayed quite true as we’ve grown. I think that when you start something with — I’m going to sound really fluffy now — but when you have that real authenticity and passion, you’re not likely to be that wrong as long as you stay true to that. So really listening to that gut I think is so important.
Andrew: All right. Let me take a moment to tell everyone here about my sponsor. I’ve been telling you guys about Toptal as the company to go to to get the best developers. And really, their developers are where they got started. They have a heavy screening process on it. But one of the things that we went to Toptal for as a company at Mixergy was design. Just like we’re talking to Cassandra about how design was important to her, it was always important to me but I couldn’t get PowerPoint to work for me.
I couldn’t, as much as I tried, do . . . frankly, I stink at design. I just know how to appreciate it. I’m in awe of it. I went to Toptal and I basically said, “Look, I stink at design. We have this new app we’re creating just for our members. I need it to actually work well, to not be so beautiful that it’s distracting, but be so beautiful that it actually will get people to use it and do what it’s supposed to do for them.”
They understood our vibe. They understood what we were going for and they introduced us to a designer. We got to go back and forth with this designer and talk through how the app should look, give them feedback, ask for changes, tell them what we wanted. The guy became like a member of our team. We had like a staff designer because of Toptal.
So, if you’re out there and you’re looking for a designer or developer, I really urge you to at least have a conversation with Toptal. They pride themselves on screening and having just the best people in their network because when they talk to someone like you and they understand what you’re looking for, they know they have one shot to really impress you and they want to get you the best person for your job.
So, whether you’re looking for a developer or designer, go check out Toptal—in fact, I’m going to give you a special URL where they’re going to give Mixergy listeners 80 hours of Toptal credit when they pay for their first 80 hours and that’s in addition to a no risk trial period of up to two weeks. If Cassandra had it and she wasn’t happy with their work, she could just say, “I’m tossing it in the bin and I’m not paying you guys,” and Toptal will still pay the developer or designer.
So here’s the site that I wish I could have given to you, Cassandra, when you were getting started. The special URL for everyone else—Toptal.com/Mixergy, top as in top of the mountain, tal as in talent, Toptal.com/Mixergy. I’m grateful to them for sponsoring.
All right. We talked about the design. Frankly, for me, the design is so beautiful that that’s what attracts me. That’s what makes me feel like I want to try this. That’s what gives me that mouthwatering flavor, that and I love the flavors that you offer, the options. Let’s talk about how you actually got the product made. I’m imagining popcorn, you just popped it at home at first, is that right? And then you figured out how to season it?
Cassandra: No. So, yeah, initially, very, very, very back at the beginning, I was experimenting with different recipes at home in the kitchen. But I always knew that I wanted it to be a product that you could find easily accessible in your local grocery store. I didn’t want to be limited to farmers markets. So I needed to find a way of getting it into production.
So, being a young girl with no proven track record, the word of food manufacturing tends to be run by big burly men who saw me coming and just didn’t get it at all and I was very repeatedly told to go and ask for my job back. I was wasting my time and the big boys were coming. Obviously that only made me even more determined and I’m quite stubborn.
Andrew: They kept saying, “Hey, why are you bothering doing this? There are these major companies out there like Lay’s. They’re going to crush you.”
Cassandra: Exactly that. Exactly that. And I felt so passionate about it. I was very undeterred. So I needed to find a way of . . . I found someone who was willing to pop the corn, but they couldn’t season it in the way that I wanted it to be seasoned.
Andrew: Why not? What’s the problem?
Cassandra: Just CapEx restrictions in terms of not having the right manufacturing equipment to be able to do it. Also, bear in mind that the U.K. market was very nascent in terms of seasoned popcorn. It didn’t really exist at the time in the way that I was envisaging with lots and lots of flavor on it. So I thought, “Okay, I need to find a way of seasoning the popcorn.” So I got a cement mixer because I thought, “Okay, I need something that can tumble,” lined it with steel, obviously to make it hygienic.
Andrew: Steel, you’re talking about the tinfoil-type thing?
Cassandra: Sort of like poured metal to line it, to make sure there are no grooves and make it really smooth inside. Then I don’t know if you have “Top Gear.”
Andrew: The show? Now they’re on Amazon, right.
Cassandra: A car show. I was watching it at home and they were saying the way they spray paint cars is the finest mist that you can get. I thought, “Okay, I need something to spray a really, really fine mist of oil to apply the seasonings, but not too much so it makes it really fattening.” So I ordered a car spraying kit online. The initial batches were me with a cement mixer and a car spraying kit. And it worked. Yes, we do have a much more professional looking setup now, but the principles remain the same.
Andrew: The cement mixer, you have the car spray and in the car spray you put some oil. You then turn the cement mixer, spray inside of it so that every piece gets a little bit of spray but not too much, then you take it out and you get the seasoning on it, is that what you did?
Cassandra: No, so you throw the seasoning into the cement mixer and it all tumbles together.
Andrew: I see. So first you spray it, then put it into the cement mixer with seasoning and tumble it.
Cassandra: Exactly.
Andrew: Yeah. We have a problem at home where I season and it’s the top layer of popcorn that gets a lot of seasoning and the bottom layer gets nothing and then the rest is stuck on the bottom because we have no oil for it to stick to.
Cassandra: And you need a really fine mister to apply the oil, because if you’re just dribbling the oil, it just clumps in the corner of the popcorn and doesn’t really spread evenly.
Andrew: I see.
Cassandra: It was a real process.
Andrew: How did you get a cement mixer?
Cassandra: Just order it online.
Andrew: Wow. Let me ask you this. It’s a pretty basic process you’re describing. Do you have any fear that someone is going to listen to that and say, “She’s not in the U.S. I’m going to do this in the U.S. I’ll make really beautiful package. I’ll get my own cement mixer, my own thing.” I’m thinking, “Why am I doing interviews? I should go do that.”
Cassandra: Absolutely not. I think I learned a really important lesson about competition in the six months just before we launched. So two quite big companies, competitors, launched seasoned popcorn, healthier seasoned popcorn. I remember going home in floods of tears thinking, “That’s it. It’s been done. What am I going to do?”
It was actually the best thing that could have happened because it creates awareness. They have bigger marketing budgets. It grows the category. It helps reposition popcorn and grow a need for that product. My job and our job as a team is to make sure we taste the best, that we are the most exciting brand, that we really deliver on every level and every touchpoint. It’s that that sets you apart. Competition is a really good thing in any market. The gauntlet is then laid down to make sure that you are the best.
Andrew: Where were your sales before the competitors came in and where are they now?
Cassandra: What do you mean?
Andrew: Like how did it impact your revenue?
Cassandra: So, if anything, we were the fastest growing back then and we remain the fastest growing popcorn brand in Europe. I have to put that down to what is an amazing team. So that’s the team first and foremost, the best tasting product and the strongest brand. When you’re able to take that sales data and go to retailers and say, “Look, like for like, we sell the best.” It’s a really compelling argument. My advice would be to anyone just don’t be scared of the competition. Just make sure that you’re the best and use it to your advantage.
Andrew: How do you know that? I just mentioned curry popcorn. I have a friend who came over for brunch at my house, saw that I had curry to put into my eggs. I just discovered curry as an adult.
Cassandra: Yeah.
Andrew: He hid it so that I wouldn’t put it in without saying anything, it wasn’t like this big, “Haha, Andrew.” It’s like he and his wife said, “We’re going to help you with the eggs.” They hid the curry. They made the eggs their way. I would have thought they’d love it, but the whole thing freaks them out. Do you do any market tests to understand whether Worcestershire sauce is something people would actually want in popcorn, or do you just go on gut instinct?
Cassandra: It’s an interesting question, this kind of tension between gut and data, gut and insight.
Andrew: Yeah.
Cassandra: I think both of them play quite an important role. It’s really important that we use insight to really understand our customer and how are the buying, what’s selling the best. But ultimately, there has to be enough connection to what you’re doing to also trust your instinct, especially in those early stages where you probably can’t afford some of that data and research.
To anyone launching products, know your customer as intimately as you can, but ultimately you have to trust your gut, especially when you’re growing or moving so quickly. There’s not always time. You have to be prepared to make those intuitive decisions. What I would say is how do we know that we’re the best tasting? Taste is subjective. But what I can say is you look at our growth and the —
Andrew: What about after you create the product? Do you have any part of your process that involves testing, having people come in and try it out?
Cassandra: So we definitely do lots of blind taste tests.
Andrew: What’s your process like for getting taste feedback?
Cassandra: So you have to make sure that it’s as objective as possible and as blind as possible, so make sure there’s no difference between proportion size, the way it’s presented, making sure there’s lots of water in between. You also then kind of mix up the order.
Andrew: Can you tell me about one time that you did this, where you had people come in, taste one of the products that actually made it on the shelves and maybe about a time when you tested a product that didn’t because of user feedback?
Cassandra: I think we’ve had so many different ideas over the years. Ultimately you need to create something that’s going to sell well as well. There were definitely some favorites internally, but I think once you put it into the store it’s probably a too whacky and maybe too niche. So it’s really important that there’s that balance.
Andrew: Give me the details. What did you do? You placed the ad where? Or did you just email a few friends and say, “Come on over to my house and test?” Or did you place an ad on Craigslist or something and say I’m looking for people to come and taste?
Cassandra: There’s been no kind of set recipe, excuse the pun. But we would either go to a picnic, go to a park where there are loads of people and say, “Excuse me, would you mind if I . . .”
Andrew: You just go to a park, you set up a table with some popcorn and say, “Does anyone want to come try it?” Or you walk around with your popcorn and say, “We’re from Propercorn. We want to try this on you and see what you think.”
Cassandra: We’ve actually done both, but the key thing is you don’t say it’s from Propercorn because the minute that there’s any affinity to the brand, it’s not objective anymore. It’s not impartial. So, you need to make sure it feels as impartial as possible. Other times we’ll do it with the team. You need to make sure you don’t affect the results in any way.
Andrew: I see. I imagine you say, “That’s our audience. That’s our customer right there. Let’s go over and see what they think of this popcorn.” Is it weird to walk up to a stranger at a park and say, “I made this popcorn. Do you want to try it?”
Cassandra: No. I think if you’re proud of what you’re — if you love what you’re trying to sell and you’re proud of what you’re trying to offer someone, then there’s no problem.
Andrew: As far as they know, you’re just a person who’s proud to have made something gourmet at home.
Cassandra: Exactly.
Andrew: I see. Do you remember one of those times where you got some interesting feedback that changed the direction of your product?
Cassandra: The honest answer is no because I think as a team we feel so connected to the customer and what we suspect that they want.
Andrew: You just suspected they would want sour cream and black pepper, for example?
Cassandra: Well, yeah. That’s an interesting one to talk about. This is about repositioning popcorn, so a healthier alternative to other snacks like crisps. The idea with that was look at what’s selling well as flavors within the crisp market and which ones work well with popcorn.
Andrew: I see. You were going down the chips aisle and saying, “Hey, there’s sour cream and black pepper. It seems to be doing well. That fits within our brand. We’d be the kind of company that would do that. I think sour cream and black pepper could taste good with popcorn.” You make it, you taste it, you say, “This is going to be good.” And that’s how you ended up on the shelves.
Cassandra: There you go.
Andrew: All right. That makes sense. All right. We found out about the first customer you got. We’ll get into the distributor that helped you grow your business. But first, I’ve got to tell people about a company called Acuity Scheduling. We used it to book our interview with you, Cassandra. It used to get so tough to get people to say yes to doing an interview with me and then I thought maybe they just don’t like, maybe I’m not a big enough star for them, maybe I’m just getting started. I only had like 100 episodes, I think, when I first discovered Acuity.
The reason I discovered it is someone on the team said, “Hey, Andrew, it’s not you. You’re making it really hard for people to book a time with you. You have so much back and forth email that you’re losing them.” I said, “All right, what do I do about it?” He said, “Check out this site, Acuity Scheduling.” I went in, first thing they say is connect your calendar, which I thought was a little weird. Why am I giving you my calendar? Then I understood because if I’m busy on Thursday at 5:00 p.m., they shouldn’t book an interview for me on Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Acuity Scheduling needs to be aware.
So I went through their whole process. They gave me an embed code that I put into a page on my site. Suddenly I had a calendar to send people. So now when someone wants to invite someone to do an interview with me or I want to invite them to do an interview, I send them a link to a page on my site that has an Acuity Scheduling calendar embedded.
They see all my available time. They pick the time and date that they want to talk to me and as soon as they do that, I ask them for their name, their phone number, their Skype name so I can connect with them and maybe a couple of other things. Boom. It immediately goes on my calendar and they have an easy way to get it on their calendar.
Acuity Scheduling, if you’re listening to me, is the best way for you to get your potential customers on the phone, your existing customers on the phone. Imagine if you have a product on your website and as soon as somebody signs up for the demo, you send them an email saying, “Thanks for trying out my software. I want to actually help you understand how you can use it in your business. Click this link, find a time on my calendar that works for you and I’ll do a screen share with you and show you how my software can help your business.”
Imagine you want to talk to someone who would be an ideal potential customer of yours. I interviewed someone who talked to 150 potential customers before launching his software. The only way you can do something like that is if you have a good system to manage all the people who want to talk to you and who you want to talk to. So Acuity Scheduling is a tool for that.
Go check them out. They have a special URL for us where they’re going to give you a lot of free time of their software. And also, they’re going to give you a one on one session with an expert who will help you see how getting people on the phone will help grow your business. Go check out AcuityScheduling.com/Mixergy. Acuity is A-C-U-I-T-Y, AcuityScheduling.com/Mixergy.
Cassandra, Google was a great first start, and I understand how that got you some good data to take back to customers. The next big thing that happened was you got a distributor. How did you get a national distributor so early on?
Cassandra: So, just in terms of the technology, my distributor, do you mean like a retailer, a national shop?
Andrew: I see. I thought you had someone who would go and distribute to retailers. You’re saying no, the next big thing was getting a retailer. How did you get them and who was it?
Cassandra: We do all of our sales ourselves. So we don’t use another distributor in the U.K. But we do with other European markets. But yeah, I think very quickly, within about three months, it was really gaining quite a lot of momentum. We were very fortunate that because of the trends that Propercorn were playing into — gluten-free, healthier snacking, on the go — we were able to get that airtime with retailers and buyers quite easily. The next job is to make sure that you are as passionate and as compelling as possible with of course commercials that stack up.
Andrew: You started buying ads after you got your first retailer? Let me break it down. How did you get the first retailer? How many phone calls? What was the process for getting somebody to say, “Yes, bring your stuff. We’ll pay you for it?”
Cassandra: We would get on the phone every day, myself and Ryan and our first employee, Alex, and we would literally be cold calling, leaving no stone unturned, literally doing telesales until we got those meetings booked in. Within about three months, we got a meeting booked in with Waitrose, which is sort of a gourmet national grocery retailer in the U.K.
It was a really, really big meeting. We kind of got really prepared. We practiced. We went in sort of guns blazing. And I think she was probably slightly knocked sideways by our enthusiasm and our passion because we do tend to get quite excited about it. I also think that made her have a bit of faith in us, what we were trying to do. She believed in us. She wanted to support the idea. She gave us our first big opportunity, which we’re so grateful for.
That really did just then start to propel, people started to take us much more seriously. I think what’s very important with any small business is that you need to be able to demonstrate that yes, you have the lovely brand and great product, but the engine of your business, the back end is really robust enough to be able to scale, to be able to supply those large quantities.
Andrew: How did you get that going? I know at first you had that cement mixer and spray. At what point were you able to get a manufacturing . . . it’s not called a factory, right? What is it called?
Cassandra: Yeah, a factory.
Andrew: How’d you get a factory to actually make the popcorn for you the way you were looking for?
Cassandra: There were only three or four popcorn factories in the U.K., especially when we were first started. One of them, I guess he understood our vision. I think it’s really important to find a manufacturer that shares and understands your vision that you’re on the same team and you’re working towards the same goal.
Also, he had enough space to be able for us to grow with and scale with. I think that’s really important as well. You don’t want to get a big customer and think, “Oh, we’re full. We can’t make anymore.” So I think it was really trying to understand exactly what we needed, finding the factory that could meet those demands, and then we just started working together, experimenting, getting the recipes right. We’re still working together today.
Andrew: Just because you get into the retail, just because the retailers buy from you doesn’t mean you’re going to end upon the shelf where people can find you in a spot that they’re actually going to want to reach for you. Talk to me about what that was like, going from the order to the customer and getting the customer’s attention along the way.
Cassandra: So that was a really tough lesson. Here we call it compliancy. So what happens is you get a big order for, let’s say, 600 stores and you go home and you celebrate and you think, “Wicked, we’ve got 600 stores, amazing.” The reality is that because you’re a new product, a new brand, the store managers have never heard of you before, the guy who’s packing the shelves isn’t familiar with you, that 600-store listing very quickly becomes maybe 200 because you’re forgotten about in the back storeroom. They didn’t put you in the right position on the shelves.
So what a lot of bigger brands have are these army of field sales up and down the country doing store checks, introducing themselves and making sure that it really delivers. We didn’t have the budget to do that. So we thought, “Okay, our popcorn is in a cardboard box. How are we going to make that cardboard box stand out so that they cannot forget about us and they can’t miss us in that storeroom?”
So we made our cardboard boxes really bright. They looked like proper cases. So it’s not just a cardboard box. If you imagine that you’re in a stockroom in the back of a supermarket and you’re surrounded by brown cardboard and suddenly you have this delivery of really bright, beautiful boxes, you’re suddenly less likely to forget about us. That’s a really good example of where we put creativity at the heart of the business and use creativity to really see financial results.
Andrew: You know what? I see it. I’m looking online just doing some Googling as you’re talking. The boxes have really bright colors, but they also look like old-fashioned luggage, am I right?
Cassandra: Yes.
Andrew: It looks like some retailers will actually use the box as a display case in their stores.
Cassandra: That’s exactly it. So not only did our compliancy shoot up and we suddenly were in the number of stores that we were meant to be in, it also meant that we had this additional branding because they were proud of the boxes and they were really happy to have them on their shelves. Yes, the boxes cost a little bit more to make them beautiful and colorful, but actually the results really paid for themselves in that sense.
Andrew: I see it. The reason I saw it is there’s a guy who retweeted a photo of your boxes in a store. I realized why because your tweet says, “Retweet for a chance to win one of our new gift boxes this week.” So, as part of that campaign, he retweeted and then I was able to find that box. I see it. That change made so much impact. How much did it cost you? What was the price difference to have your boxes look this beautiful?
Cassandra: Maybe 10% more.
Andrew: Just 10% more? And increased sales dramatically?
Cassandra: Yeah. It really helped us. I think I guess what’s interesting now is I think we were seen as a real leader in that. So now a lot of snack companies do bright-colored boxes. So we need to make sure that we continue to lead and that we’re innovators in our category. That’s great. We love that challenge. We want to continually be making sure that we are leading by example and staying innovative.
Andrew: What about the idea of shelf life? I read an article where you understood that your shelf life needed to be six months, but. . .
Cassandra: Yeah. That was, oh God, that was a difficult one. So very early on, when we first launched, we thought, “Okay, our popcorn is six months’ shelf life.” We put a big order in. It sounds so naïve now, but we thought, “Great, we’ve got six months to sell this. We’re really ambitious, so let’s put an even bigger order in.”
What we stupidly didn’t realize was that six months is actually more like two months because shops require a minimum of four months on their shelf. So suddenly we had two months to sell six months’ worth of popcorn. It really could have bankrupted the business in terms of cash flow and all of that stock holding.
It actually turned out to be a real blessing in disguise because myself and Ryan especially, he’s a brilliant salesman, got on the phones and were just literally just phoning as quickly as we could. Because of that anxiety, “My God, we have to shift this,” we actually got some really big orders off the back of it and really kind of put the pressure on and made us try even harder. It could have really bankrupted us. It was an important lesson.
Andrew: You also ended up raising money because you needed to grow. What was the process like of raising money for a popcorn company?
Cassandra: So raising money always, what I would say, takes three times as long as you think it will, and it’s much more time consuming than you will ever anticipate. So that’s lesson number one is kind of pay yourself for that process. I think we were very fortunate that, because of the success and visibility of the brands of Propercorn, we attracted quite a lot of interest along our journey. For us, the number one and most important thing was it’s not just about the check. It’s not just about money in the bank. It’s about the relationship, making sure that we are bringing investors into the business who, again, share our vision.
Andrew: How’d you find them?
Cassandra: It’s almost like a dating process is the best way I can describe it. It’s spending time making sure that they understand your vision. They are aligned with your financial and brand goals and also that there’s just a great working relationship.
Andrew: You raised money from Piper Private Equity. How’d you connect with them?
Cassandra: Piper Private Equity and JamJar.
Andrew: JamJar.
Cassandra: JamJar are the three Innocent founders, the Innocent smoothie drinks. They’re the three guys who launched that company. They came together. So Innocent we already had a relationship with. They’ve been very generous with their time and advice and mentorship over our journey. Then Piper approached us and were just really supportive in the way that they approached. I think a good filter is, “Could I go for lunch with these people?”
Andrew: How did you even get them to pay attention to you?
Cassandra: So I guess trying to sort of say it in a modest way, that they were very sort of coming with their attention.
Andrew: I’m guessing JamJar would be an easier intro because their founders have a background in, as you said, Innocent Drinks, the smoothie company. They’ve invested in, I’m looking on line here, Deliveroo, Blue Bottle Coffee and other consumer food products. So I’m imagining they were the first ones? Did you just call them up and email them?
Cassandra: No, not at all. They both found us in terms of investment. I guess you need to remember that Propercorn is very visible in most shops across the U.K. and around Europe as well. They were seeing the brand. It’s their job to look for exciting opportunities. We’re very lucky that we’ve had quite a lot of press as well. So, as a result of that, they approached us, which was very flattering, but the next step is, “Okay, can we work together? Are we aligned? What’s our shared vision for this business?”
Andrew: I can see that. All right. Then finally, let’s talk about people. I keep reading about how your company keeps growing, and I know from your conversation with our pre-interviewer that you really care about the culture, the way that you’re working with your people. At your worst, can you give me an example of how frustrating it was when you didn’t get it right, and then let’s talk about what you did to get it right now.
Cassandra: In terms of getting the team right?
Andrew: Yeah.
Cassandra: I think ultimately the responsibility has to lie with myself and Ryan. So what I will say is that the team are probably the thing that I’m most proud of, such an amazing, talented group of people. We have these five values that we recruit on and we nurture within the team. I guess anytime that there hasn’t . . . getting the people bit right in the business is one of the toughest things to get right.
Andrew: Give me an example of a time when it was really tough so that we understand what you were going through.
Cassandra: I think maybe when expectations aren’t the same on both sides of the table. Maybe we weren’t clear enough on what the role was and what was expected. Maybe they had a slightly . . . I think in a couple of instances, maybe there’s been real excitement about working for Propercorn and they love the brand and they haven’t really thought about, “Actually, do I want that role?”
It doesn’t matter how great the company is and how exciting the brand is, you have to want to get up every morning and do that job, that specific job. I think where it probably hasn’t worked is maybe when people were here for the company but not for the role. We’ve really learned now to make sure that that’s really clear and explicit in terms of the job description, the way you recruit.
Andrew: I see. The way you write it down ahead of time helps with the work they do when they’re there.
Cassandra: Exactly.
Andrew: All right. What’s the best part of having done all this, of having built this business?
Cassandra: I think I’m learning every day. No day looks the same. It’s been the most amazing opportunity to be able to work with some incredible talent, to learn from people who have gone on and done it even bigger and better than we could ever dream of and that platform has been an amazing, amazing journey so far. I very much feel that we’re very much still at the starting line. We’re very ambitious, so I feel like there’s so much more to come.
Andrew: Well, you know what, actually? It looks like I’ve been Googling as we’re talking. I wanted to see what people thought of this. It looks like people think so highly of it, they’re actually buying it in the U.S. from different retailers. I guess someone’s bringing it in from Europe and selling it here in the U.S. Did you know about that?
Cassandra: I might need to check that.
Andrew: It’s definitely labeled for non-US customers.
Cassandra: We are not meant to be in the U.S., but we would absolutely love to be in the U.S. It’s a fantastic market, and we love all of the innovation that’s happening out there. For us, you can’t do everything right. So Europe is first because it’s on our doorstep, but who knows.
Andrew: Even Amazon is selling it actually from what I can see here. I could buy a bag for $10.
Cassandra: I’ll tell you something really fun. Propercorn was the first ever product for the Amazon drone delivery.
Andrew: Is that right?
Cassandra: Yes.
Andrew: How did you end up with them as a first product?
Cassandra: We didn’t even know it was happening and then it hit the papers, Amazon’s first drone deliver and I looked at it, “Oh my God, I recognize that.” We zoomed in and realized it was a pack of Propercorn.
Andrew: Oh, wow.
Cassandra: Which was amazing.
Andrew: I guess that kind of makes sense. First of all, it looks like kind of a fun thing to get and second, it’s a big package but it’s light.
Cassandra: It’s light, exactly.
Andrew: It’s not going to take the drone down. If it falls on someone’s head, they’re not going to get hurt. They’re just going to enjoy some popcorn.
Cassandra: Kind of low risk for your first drone.
Andrew: Yeah. Congratulations on that. Congratulations on the business. For anyone who wants to check it out, it’s at Propercorn.com. Of course, the two sponsors I mentioned, the company that will help you hire your next great developer, Toptal, and the company that will actually help you get people on the phone. It’s called Acuity Scheduling. I’ve got to stop looking at pictures of your food. I wonder if the audience can tell when my mouth is watering.
All right. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for listening. Bye, everyone.
