[NSFW] STOP Building Your Product And Learn Kopywriting Now

We’re obsessed with building great products, but what we’re often missing is the ability to show the world WHY what we’re building is worth people’s time, money, trust, etc.

In one of the most curse-filled and frank interviews on Mixergy, Neville Medhora talks about how his ‘Kopywriting‘ process has shown founders measurable increases in sales, clicks and user-passion. And he’ll teach you a few tactics that you can use the next time you’re writing sales copy.

Neville Medhora

Neville Medhora

Kopywriting Kourse

Neville Medhora is the creator of Kopywriting Kourse, which teaches entrepreneurs how to write great copy.



Full Interview Transcript

Andrew: Before we get started, this interview is sponsored by Fast Customer. You ever have to make a phone call say to your bank, but don’t want to wait on hold for half an hour until a real person gets on the phone? Well with Fast Customer you just do what I do, its right here on my iPhone and I’ve had it since it launched. You just type in the person you want to reach, in my case I’m going to go Citibank Credit Card Support. They will call them, they will get a person on the phone and then they’ll connect me. I don’t have to press 1 or press 0 or do any of it, or wait on hold, I can go back to work and then they’ll call me when the person is available to talk to me, and I do this with AAA if I need to, and I did a few weeks ago, I do this with Citibank, with tons of companies, any company you want to reach just about is going to be in there. Go to FastCustomer.com and get the app right now for your iPhone or android device, and if you’re a company and you don’t want to keep your people on hold forever, maybe you want some insight into their customer satisfaction, go to FastCustomer.com and partner with them.

My second sponsor is Shopify, you already know that Shopify is the easiest way to get a store online and you know that Shopify stores increase sales for their store owners, but they don’t want to reach you. Shopify is sponsoring Mixergy because they know you are an influencer and they want to reach your friends, so if a friend of yours says, “I need to sell something online..,” I’m hoping that you’ll remember to say, ” Shopify is the number 1 way to sell online, anyone can set up a store right now on Shopify.com.”

And finally, Scott Edward Walker, you know what he specializes in, working with entrepreneurs like you, especially in the tech world. If you need a lawyer, don’t take my word for it, look at all these great testimonials by entrepreneurs who you know and respect. They all say the same thing that I do, go to walkercorporatelaw.com. Here’s the program.

Hey everyone, my name is Andrew Warner, I’m the founder of Mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart, there he is with the fist pump. And the place where my mission is to help you build a phenomenal business, which means that I’m not going to be nearly as interesting as some of the best TV shows on the air right now, I’m talking about housewives or whatever. For a small group of people who are actually making the world turn, the entrepreneurs who are actually in there, I’m going to go into every interview and hunt down the information that you need so that you can go back to your business and see measurable results, and I grill my interviewees in pre-interviews to make sure you get that. But you don’t care about me, you care about yourselves right? So let me ask you this, what’s more important for getting people to try your product? Is it building a great product and then sweating over it? Or is it learning to promote it with great copywriting? The answer I think is to learn how to explain, to know how to explain why your product works with great copy writing. Because if people don’t know why its great, they’re never even going to get to the product, they’re never even going to see how great your product is and all the work you put into it, so I want to learn how to write good copy, how to write persuasive copy, and to do that I invited my buddy Neville Medhora. He’s the creator of KopyWritingKourse with two K’s as you can see from his T-shirt. This is the guy who’s teaching other online entrepreneurs how to write good copy, he’s also the person who is the copywriter for AppSumo, the guy behind their emails and their other online marketing. Neville?

Neville: Yes, yes, good to be here today, Andrew.

Andrew: I like that, I like the glasses, you’re getting serious with me here [

Neville: See how long I can keep that though.

Andrew:] you’re even using my pre-interview tactics to pull out more useful information. So here is what Neville and I did, we sat down and we talked about your need in the audience to get a lot of tactics. And we’re going to get to that. But first I imagine you’re saying to yourself, what am I going to be able to do at the end of this, if I sit down, take notes, and learn, what am I going to be able to do with it. Neville, you gave an example of how you walked into AppSumo, and saw something, and then you added copywriting and created something else with it. Can you tell my audience that example, let’s let them see that it’s possible for them too.

Neville: Yeah, my buddy Noah Kagan runs AppSumo out of his apartment, like a day or two a week, we just hang out and chill and he’s sending out at the time maybe to about 100,000 people, a 100,000 person email list, these really like lame emails, like “We have this deal today on this software, this app, please buy it.” And the funny thing is, that was actually like working pretty well just cause there were so many people, even 1% buying is like a pretty good amount of money right? So, I was like “Dude, Noah, these emails, they suck.” Like they were really terrible, they were like really lame, and that’s not how Noah communicates normally. So I was like let me try something, let me see how good I am, so there was this deal called Pernist and you don’t need to know this name, it was just a font matching company. They send you four fonts a month that are matched to each other. Honestly, we were like “Man, only really hardcore nerdy developers are ever going to buy this. There’s no reason anyone would really buy this.” But, it’s really useful if you’re a hardcore developer. So, I wrote this long e-mail. I stripped the e-mail of all images. It was just, literally, text. It was literally three or four pages long, and I was like, “Dude, this is fucking stupid. Please, do not send this out.”

We send it out and it just totally kills it. The kernest deal was the best selling deal ever, so Noah made tons of profit on that day, and, clearly, when you make someone lots of profit they’re like, “Uh, c-, c-, can you do that again?” So, I was actually even surprised at how well it worked on the crowd, so we did it again and again and again, and five months later, to this day, I still write pretty much every e-mail that goes out for Appsumo.

Andrew: The next thing I know my audience is going to be thinking to themselves is “This guy Neville probably has the gift of gab.” You probably were just kind of B.S.ing in your e-mail, writing the way you talk, and you’ve got a way of talking that’s persuasive. In fact, before the interview started you said, “Andrew, I tend to talk a lot, so if you need to hold me back, hold me back.” I don’t think my audience has got that problem, so they might be thinking, “Well, Neville’s got some kind of gift of gab and all this copy-writing stuff we’re going to learn only works for him. It won’t work for the average person.”

Neville: Well, I’ve been blessed with good looks, but good copy-writing for sure. Here’s the thing; five months ago I wasn’t really a copywriter and now I introduce myself and people ask, “What do you do?” I say, “I’m a semi-famous copywriter.” Thanks in part to you, by the way. That interview we did launched this whole new career. So, five months ago I was not doing very well in copy writing. About a year and a half ago I started reading about copy writing for my own business. My own business was a drop shipping company, and I would send these e-mails out and all my friends were saying, “You have to monetize your e-mail list and blah, blah, blah.”

I have 7,500 people who’ve all ready bought from me, so it shouldn’t be that hard to sell them again, according to what all my friends are saying. I was sending out these e-mails and I took a lot of time on them. I made pictures for each one. I water-marked the pictures. I wrote all of the advertisements and I would do everything I could to send out these e-mails. There were really high click-thus like people would love looking at the pictures and clicking on it maybe. Nobody bought anything.

So, I would make $40 in profit, meanwhile it would cost me $80 a month to have [??] or something like that. I was actually going in the hole, ROI wise, so I started researching these copywriters online, the ones that are direct response. They measure, scientifically, everything, and I was doing everything totally wrong. It was so wrong that there was no way that this could work. It’s so different from what I’m used to.

I sent out a test e-mail on a Friday night, went out and got drunk at a party, checked my iPhone at 11 P.m. So, at 9 P.m. I sent out an e-mail. This should be a horrible time. I had 120 orders. For reference, I usually get 120 orders in a month at a time. I was, like, “OK. Maybe I’m drunk and something’s just clearly wrong with my server.” I get home and I have 80 orders in my system, and then I check my PayPal and there’s 40 more orders over there. So, I was thinking, “One, I just made a lot of money, two, I’m all ready out of the products that I was going to be selling for the next two weeks, three, ‘what was the difference in this sale?'”

It was only that e-mail that I sent out. There was no difference in the landing page or anything like that. But, when I explained why someone should buy this and put a story around it and all that kind of stuff and did it in the right manner it just blew up the business. It was crazy, and that was just from changing some words around. It was unbelievable to me.

Andrew: I want to learn how to do it in the right manner, as you say, because I see that excitement. I saw the pictures of what your before was like and I know that you weren’t always great copywriter and I’ve also seen the results of today of what you’re like. I want to know how to go from there from here. So, start me off. I told you before the interview that my audience loves tactics. They want to see if they can use everything tomorrow and see results within a week. So, what’s the first tactic?

Neville: The first tactic’s very depressing. No one cares about you they care about themselves. Do you mind if I say that again?

Andrew: No.

Neville: No one cares about you they care about themselves. What I mean by that is, for example, the first time I ever went to Mixergy I saw Andrew interviewing someone, and I came there because there was a famous person being interviewed and you were just the lowly interviewer. I didn’t care about you. But the, after a while, I started watching and I was like, “Wow, this guy asks way better questions than everyone else.” Then I got interested in you later on. But, at first, if your website is like my name is Andrew Warner and I come from this background and blah, blah,blah, I wouldn’t care. I would just like want information and so the first thing I am telling everyone is that no one cares about you.They care about themselves. And then we could do a little example of this. Let’s say you send a e-mail or something like that to someone and I send you an e-mail and you don’t know me. I’m like “Hello Andrew, my name is Neville Medhora. I have a drop shipping company called House of Rave.com and I created this course called kopyrightingkourse.com to help [??] See already you just don’t care. You probably get a million of these a day and you are just going to delete or archive that immediately.

Ruthlessly and immediately, no one gives a shit. No offense however, if I said this little e-mail. This would convert so much better if I just said “Hey Andrew, I notice you do three interviews a day, I have a way you can speed that up to half the time. Interested? Call me”. Now, you’d be like, what the hell is he talking about? I didn’t introduce myself, I didn’t say I have a company or anything like that. If I just said that, you’d be way more interested and now let’s see, let’s add on to that. If I said here is how you reduce your time by half and I gave you three awesome tactics and bullet points right there and there is a fourth one. And I say there is a fourth one at the end, call me for it. This one is really going to double your, blah, blah, blah. Offer some benefit, right? It’s almost like right now you’re like really is there a way to do that? You can promise them like some benefit. Clear benefit, they are going to get. They’ll always contact you back and I’ve done this for many people, many times with like crazy success.

Andrew: First of all, I understand what you are saying, to remember the moment of writing copy. That it is not about me and my product, but it’s about them. It’s going to be a little harder but, I get that. The next question I’m going to have when I’m sitting there is what the hell do they want? I understand how you are able to do it to me, to Andrew, you’ve known me for a long time. You know what I’m looking for. Of course, I’m doing interviews and of course I would like to speed up the process. Who wouldn’t? And so you’re going to offer solutions for that. But, when you are staring at, I think you said, 7,500 people on your mailing list, 100,000 people on Noah’s mailing list, X number of people on my audience’s websites, and they have to figure out what do they want that I can start talking to them in term of their benefits, you get stumped. You know, what do all these people want. How do I come up with that more interviews recorded at faster time equivalent for them?

Neville: Well, I am going to give you like the official way that everyone says like building your avatar and everything. The quick and dirty way is honestly just pull it out of your ass. Just guess. Just guess who your average customer is. They’re most likely just sort of like you. You know, they are probably roughly the same or like the same people you go to networking events with blah, blah, blah. The actual way you do this is you got to build this customer avatar in your mind. So let’s say [??] has 100,000 people. What we will do is notice like, OK, these are the deals they buy the most. And they’ll tend to be like an educational course about writing HTML. So, we can probably presume that all these people know how to use a computer, right? You know, they are not 35 year old moms that have never used a computer or something like that. We can tell just by the demographics, most of them happen to be male. We can tell all sorts of things like that. So, whenever we kind of build this customer ,Bob, in our head, I imagine me going to some sort of tech happy hour meet up and there is all these dudes that are like, not very far off in age then me. They are all like pretty intelligent, usually college educated for the most part and they have all started small businesses in the past. Some of them are good at it, some of them are bad at it. They all have a can do attitude about things like that and they are all kind of tech geeks. They probably all use Twitter. They all use e-mail on a regular basis. A lot of them have Macs. I mean, just from very little information, you can discover a lot about your customers and like, for my own business I would just pick up the phone every once in a while and answer e-mails. And you can pretty much tell who your average customer is. It varies so much sometimes but try to make it just like an average composite person you think about hanging out in a room with. I mean, it’s not that hard sometimes.

Andrew: OK. All right. So, fair enough. You do have a sense of who the person is and I imagine to if I am looking at [??], the person I am talking to is going to be a designer. We know historically that their customers have been designers. We have a sense of what a designer would want and that is what we start to think about. It’s not the perfect solution. It’s not as good as having avatars and surveys and one-on- one conversations. But at least it is a start and it’s putting the customers needs first. All right, now I’ve got the mind set. I still haven’t taken action. What’s the next step that I take?

Neville: Well, let me add one point to that. If you know that they are designers, basically what they are doing, they are designing [??] because they want to make more money and get better clients. Like that’s kind of an obvious thing, so whenever I wrote the [??] thing. I said here is how Kernis will make you more money. I literally showed step-by-step, because I have some knowledge about being a designer, I’ve done freelancy stuff in the past. Here’s how you use this to make more money and make your client’s pants wet, like something crazy and that’s exactly what they want, they don’t care about a font matching service so much. They care about the end benefit, remember. The next question, I totally forgot.

Andrew: I’m going to come back to the “pants wet” point that you made there, because I think that has something to do with the style that you bring to your writing, but I’ve got a sense now of what your looking for. You’re saying, if I were going to sell this without any training at all, if I were going to sell Kernis, I would say it’s a series of fonts. You get them quickly. You don’t have to go to the web to get them. It’s better than the competition, it’s cheaper. You’re already making gestures saying this is absolutely wrong it’s not what anyone cares about.

Neville: Nope, it bores the shit out of me saying that. Like, how boring was that?

Andrew: That was boring.

Neville: It was a cute boring.

Andrew: But beyond boring, your also saying I’m not addressing their needs with that. OK. Next step, so now we’ve got the right mind set. What’s the next tactic that we need to teach my audience?

Neville: The next tactic, you have is kind of learning, how about this, I’m going to give you like a quick formula that everyone can use to write the next everything they ever write in their life. This is like the famous formula that’s been passed down since like the 1800’s of how to write correctly. I just tell you that this is like the Gospel, because I have tried to break this formula so many times. Believe me, it pisses me off that there’s this rule that works so well that I didn’t break all the time. Here’s the formula, it’s called AIDA. A I D A, kind of like AIDS. Everyone should get out a fucking pen right now, I can’t stress this enough. Everyone who’s taken the copyrighting course was like, dude, that one video about AIDA has like changed my life. I swear to God, I’m not making this up. A means attention, I means interest, D means Desire, and A means action. The way you do this is every time you sit down and try to write something, let’s say we’re trying to write this Aunt thing, right. You’re like, well, what do I write.

Well, most people start off at a computer and like, uh, like font Kernis does a font matching services and blah, blah, blah, you’re e-mails dead in the water. If you’d followed the AIDA formula, it almost writes the thing for you. So, for example, Attention, which is the first A, what you would write is: Are you a Designer? Do you want to make more money as a Designer? Well, let me know you how. Bam! If that person’s a designer, you think their going to read that? I’d say there’s a very likely chance that they would as opposed to like, We here at Kernis are a blah, blah, blah, and nothing. The next part would be the interest part, what you’re going to do is interest them with interesting facts or interesting things about the product, service, whatever you’re selling.

So, I would say: Did you know that Steve Jobs was originally obsessed with typography and then I would use the famous quote he says in his Stanford interview about how he was obsessive about topography and then later on in his life, he applied that to the Mac. It’s just like a three sentence quote and then Steve Jobs, like instant credibility there, with like designers, come on designers are probably using an iPod and everything Mac, so you’ve already got their interest right there. Then you say interesting things about Kernis. So, what Steven Jobs said in that quote was, most people don’t know why something looks good, their just like, wow, that page looks good. But they don’t understand that this type of Sans Serif font is perfectly complimented by this font and blah, blah, whatever, you know. So, if you just mention that to them that Kernis has been working in the font industry for twenty years and knows exactly the science behind which fonts match up, you don’t have to do any of this, he just sends four of them per month.

That’s kind of interesting to a designer, so Steve Jobs said so and we’re getting a thing, that’s pretty cool. Now the desire part, notice how, it’s like asking questions about the product, how you get their attention, how do you get their interest and now we’re at Desire. The desire part is where you make them like want the product. Right now, their just like, hmm, that’s pretty cool, now you show them that if they have Kernis is their life is going to get better. And so, Desire would make them desire this, so you would say something like, I’m just making this all up off the top of my head by the way. You’d say, remember that time that your last client was not so satisfied with your product, if you had Kernis they would wet their pants looking at it. Something along those lines. So you make them envision themselves getting that benefit, however you do that, make them visualize the desire for it. And then the final part, which, it almost hurts to think that so many people missed this part. It’s action. Literally ask them to do something, because if you don’t, then they clearly won’t. How would they know to do it? So what you would say is, you’d literally walk them step by step on how to get Kernest. So let’s say there’s a PayPal button on the web site and you have to click that and enter your information. What you would do is say, ”So now, if you’d like to impress the hell out of your next clients, what you’re going to do is this. Step 1, click the link below. Step 2, that link will take you to a PayPal page. Pay me the $37 and enter your information. Step 3, the Kernest Font, the first 4 fonts that we sent last month will immediately be sent to your email via zip file in .PDF format, or whatever it is. Step 4, enjoy and start fonting the hell out of your stuff.’

Andrew: You want to be very specific.

Neville: Super specific.

Andrew: Take this action. It’s not enough to just have a button there.

Neville: The first email I did in this sense, I actually had one of my friends review it, and it was, I’d say, like 30 percent of the whole email was telling them how to buy. I was like, ‘These people have already bought from me before. They know to go to checkout.’ Now, you don’t have to say, ‘Enter your first name. Enter your last name. Enter your address.’ Stuff that’s pretty common, you don’t have to do that. But you have to give them step by step of what’s going down. What you’re doing is removing all the fear. They’re just like, ‘Well, if I sign up, am I going to get my fonts tomorrow or later? What’s going on?’ You’re telling them, ‘As soon as you do it an email will be sent to you with a bunch of zip files with all of your fonts.’ You let them know exactly how this shit’s going down. That’s the point.

Andrew: You know, I would have pushed you on this. You know that I like to challenge my guests, but we had an interesting experience recently where I was talking to someone here at Mixergy about one of our pages, and I said, ‘I’d like you to just sign up the way a customer would,’ and she goes, ‘Where do I sign up?’ and goes, ‘You know, the sign up page. Just go here.’ She couldn’t find the ‘take action’ button. Her job… she’s here at Mixergy. She’s supposed to know where everything is. The ‘take action’ button wasn’t nearly obvious enough. I always think they were being too obvious. If she doesn’t know it, I’ve got a feeling that other people don’t know where it is.

Neville: Can I share a really good tip that I think people will really like? I learned it from my friend who, I can’t say his name, but he’s really high up at Google. He runs one of the Google Chrome OS projects. That basically says who he is, but I was spending some time staying at his place in Mountain View for a while, and I was redesigning my own ecommerce site to get higher conversions. He looked at it and he got out of his chair and did this. Here’s literally what he did. I was like, ‘Is this button good enough? Is it clear what goes on this page?’ He puts his laptop on the table, gets up, takes ten steps back, OK? I don’t know if you can hear me if I get that far. He takes ten steps back, and he’s so far away from this tiny little monitor, and he goes, ‘You did it wrong.’ I was like, ‘What are you talking about?’ He’s like, ‘If you take ten steps back and can’t tell what you’re supposed to do on that page, you’ve automatically failed. Look at every button Google has on all of their products.’ Go to Google Site Search. There’s a BFB. What that means is ‘Big Fucking Button’, and it’s this huge button that doesn’t say, ‘Buy Now.’ It says ‘Give me Google Site Search For My Own Website.’ You know how Amazon Checkout says similar stuff like that? Like, ‘Take Me to Checkout’, and it’s this very obvious button. Even if you couldn’t read the text, even if it’s in Russian, you would probably know that that’s the button to go to the next step. If you want your action part to do well, make sure you have a super obvious call to action. I usually do it with the form of really big text that will say, ‘Click here to send me my copy of whatever.’ You know, stuff like that.

Andrew: Alright. Give me another tactic. So far, I’m loving these.

Neville: So far? Man, you’re hitting me up for all this good stuff.

Andrew: I know. I’m feeling a little bit guilty because I know that you’ve got this in a course that people can sign up for and pay for, and here I am.

Neville: I don’t… that course is so god damned good, I could give away all the stuff you want right here.

Andrew: I’ve gotten all the stuff I want.

Neville: Here’s the next thing that we’re going to talk about. Writing casual. I don’t know why the fuck this happens. I don’t know what this human reactionary thing is. But let’s say you’re trying to write a letter to someone. We’ll have this conversation like this, but in the past I would do this, too. I would say, ‘Dear Andrew Warner of Mixergy, How is it going today? My name is Neville Medhora. I am a blah blah blah.’ What I’m trying to demonstrate here is, I’m typing in a very boring way. It’s so formal. We all learn this from English class. Do you know what formal means to me? It means boring as fuck. Why would I even read this? You’re a busy guy. If you see this long email about me and dah, dah, dah, like, honestly. Would you just like archive it? I wouldn’t even read it sometimes.

Andrew: I can’t, you know what, I’ve got to tell you the truth is, when I see e-mails like that I can’t focus on them. But, at the same time, Neville, you’ve used foul language here in the interview a few times and know you’re turning people off to my interview with that. I don’t want you to stop. I think my whole goal here is to get entrepreneurs to talk exactly as they ordinarily would because I want to be real with these interviews. Obviously, you’re not the first one, believe me, other entrepreneurs have. I know that that happens here, if you were to say, you’re going to wet your pants with how good this is, you’re going to irritate some people in their in-box. You’re going to turn them off. If you come in with language that’s rude or language that comes off as a little too casual, like using the word “bam” the way that you sometimes do in your copy. People are going to say, this is an unprofessional operation, I don’t know that I want to buy stuff from these guys and trust them with money and hope that they’ll. You know what I’m saying.

Neville: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: You’ll lose credibility. That’s what would keep me from doing it.

Neville: Every client I’ve ever had that I’ve done stuff for, has vehemently rejected the first drafts of my e-mails until they see the results. I am not even lying here, even Noah sometimes is like, dude, you can’t stay stuff like that. I’m like, well, why not? Says who? These people are adults, they’ve never heard the word shit before, like, really? And so, it turns off such a small percentage of people, and you who are a fan of Howard Stern. Let me tell you the Howard Stern effect, people that like Howard Stern, listen on average for about an hour and twenty minutes. People who hate Howard Stern, listen for an average of over three hours. It’s because they want to see what he’s going to say, they just are so intensely curious about what he’s going to say. Even if it vulgar or foul, it stands out, it’s interesting. So long as it’s interesting and casual and you’re connecting to them, it doesn’t matter. So, I’m not saying that you write to a bank or interview an applicant like some silly jack-ass. Hey, what’s up homies, hey blah, blah, blah. I’m not saying sound like a retard. I’m saying talk casually. Like, like the way we’re talking right now. Here’s another cool tactic, here’s what I used to do, because they would always say write casually but we’re so trained to write boringly, so what I would do is I would record what I was going to say.

So let’s say I was trying to write you an e-mail, I’d say, hey, what’s up, Andrew? How’s it going? I have this really cool thing for you and blah, blah. I’d let all my enthusiasm show and then I would literally transcribe it. Weird activity because I was like, man this e-mails so much better when I just said it out loud, rather than sat there and typed it. There’s some weird disconnect, I don’t know the science behind it, but for some reason that’s a big problem with a lot of people and I’d rather turn a small percentage of the people off that are offending by casual language, rather than just not get my e-mail read at all.

Andrew: Rather than what? We lost connection for a second.

Neville: Rather than, just not have my e-mail read or my communication

Andrew: I see.

Neville: Not read at all. Can I give you an example of one of my friends?

Andrew: Yeah.

Neville: How this would work like crazy. One of my friends owns this thing called My Body Tutor, it helps you lose weight, he has a 100% success rate, probably the best thing I’ve ever seen in my life.

Andrew: That’s your friend, I’ve seen that. Great site.

Neville: Oh, dude. I lost like 25 pounds in two months. It’s permanent weight loss too, the way he does it. Anyway, I’m not going to try to pimp his site over here, it’s fucking awesome though. But, he tries to get interviews with all these CNN people, so let’s say there’s an article that comes out on CNN, called like, You Can Eat Calories for Breakfast and Still Lose Weight, and like, he will e-mail Cathy or whoever wrote that article and he has a standard e-mail that he sends out. It’s all about him, and it’s all about, Hi, my name is Adam, I have a 100% success rate at helping people lose weight. My company, MyBodyTutor.com goes into blah, blah, blah, blah. Fuck it, it’s already done. You know how many, so get this, get this stat, I am not kidding, you can ask Adam about this. He sends out 30 e-mails a month, OK? Like this, like one a day, he gets maybe two responses per month and the e-mails usually say, no thanks but stop e-mailing me. Like that’s his response. So, basically, his conversion rate is an absolute zero. Even though he has possibly the best product I have ever seen concerning like, weight loss and stuff like that, right. But he presents it so boring, so he’s asked me to re-write an e-mail for him. Of course, the first draft he was like, dude, I just can’t send this out. So what I did was, if it was a female reporter I said, hey sexy Cathy, I can see why you write fitness articles. I’m blatantly hitting on the girl and like, it’s totally not him, right? And then I’m going on to say, I liked your article although really I have a problem with it. Is this really helping it? I can see some fat women thinking they can eat dessert and blah, blah, blah. It almost kind of facet of talking about her article, ‘cuz it’s leading people on to believe that oh I can eat a bunch of dessert and lose weight? And I say, come on Kathy [SP], that’s not really helping. I’ve got a couple of things that I think you might like. I used to write articles and I never published these three. I have three articles, here they are. And it gives the titles and they’re these really juicy titles. And I was like, email me back and Ill send them to you for free. I don’t want any credit, I just want you to have some cool articles for yourself. I’m not using them, I hope you can. Adam.

And Adam was like, dude, I can’t hit on her right away. That’s just really offensive. Two, you didn’t even mention by body to her in the whole email. You didn’t even talk about it. What the hell is that? I’m trying to get calls! And I was like, okay. Shut the fuck up. Here’s what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to get an article published by this author, right? You’re trying to get a reporter’s attention. How many emails a day do you think she gets? Probably a lot. I own a financial blog and get 30 emails and requests a day for articles and I delete, delete, delete, delete, delete. This one will at least get her attention at the very, very least. Right? And it also gives her a clear benefit. I used to write for a newspaper and I know you always need new content, you always need new stuff. And I’m offering three good articles for this girl to just use without giving me any credit. Isn’t that cool? This is exactly what she wants. Sure enough, 19 out of 30 emails now get a response. 19 out of 30, as opposed to two out of 30, and the two were just like, stop emailing me.

And so now he barely even talks about his company. At first. ‘Cuz remember like I said? People don’t care about you, they care about them. What kind of benefit can you give them first? Before you start requesting all this shit from them, you know?

Andrew: I wish I was still doing these interviews live so that I can get the feedback from the audience. I’m so curious about the person who’s listening to me right now while running, while cycling. Is he agreeing with you? Or is he felling like Andrew’s going a little too far here? But have a feeling based on my own personality and own experiences listening to stuff as I go for runs or sit on buses sometimes listening to stuff, it is: this is what I want to hear. I don’t want to be vanilla in my life. I don’t want to die thinking that there’s all this good stuff in me but I was afraid to unleash it on the world because I was afraid that they might be insulted.

Neville: I’m a greedy little bastard and so I like that everyone else is vanilla ‘cuz I just do something just slightly different, and it works so well. And you go to any website, and like, no one reads their mission statement. No one gives a shit. And I know all these kind of “wantreprenuers” [SP] that build a website and they’re like, oh we have a cool mission statement. And it’s like no one fucking cares. No one cares about that stuff. They’re using all their time in the wrong places. Whereas if they just communicated way better, which I could do in one headline and they can do in a whole article, it makes so much more difference. You want sales. People forget that. You want people to open up their wallets and buy, or sign up for your email inbox. Or whatever it is. You don’t want to be cool and funny, you want to sell. That’s the point. You want to sell, sell, sell. And you have to be a little funny to get that sale, then that’s fine.

Andrew: What happens if the person listening to us, gets this right? I mean he’s sitting there with a tape recorder starts talking like the way he really talks, transcribes it, adds a little bit punchy words to it, uses the attention-interest-desire-action formula, and things are going well, and then it’s time to hire someone else to take over this writing role. Where are they going to find a writer that can duplicate this personal style? You know?

Neville: You send them to copywritingcourse.com to learn about it. But you can hire writers on Elance and things like that. And you simply just look at their copy and see if it’s congruent with you. ‘Cuz there’s a lot of copywriters that do very well that write for legal industries. And they want specifically boring copies so no one reads it. Like that’s the whole point. But if you want to hire a copywriter like that, it’s easily learnable. You can teach people stuff like this. Within a couple months I’ve become this way. And it’s just by understanding a few rules that get you there.

Andrew: If I were to go back in time a year ago, what would you have said, or what would you have done with this interview? Go back in time one year ago and say, here look, here’s this guy, I can’t tell you his name, listen to his interview. What would you have said to it?

Neville: I probably would have been talking about my drop-shipping business, and how that was like kind of a muse company. I wouldn’t have known much about copywriting at the time.

Andrew: And you wouldn’t have listened to this and said, you know I can use this? You would have been too busy going your own direction, you’re saying?

Neville: I mean I love Mixergy, but in terms of copywriting, it’s just something I learned very quickly in the last few months. So after this copywriting course release, which was the number one selling thing on AppSumo, ever, by the way. Thanks partially to you kicking off that interview and everything, all these people have emailed me with results. Do you remember that first interview we did a long time ago? You applied, literally the next day or something like that. The stuff I taught you in that one hour through your email. You sent to me this over 100 percent open rate, because some people opened it several times, and the only thing you did was, you changed the tag. You changed the way you wrote it. Right?

Andrew: Yeah. When [App Sumo] started, it was looking for courses to offer their customers, and Noah said, ‘You’ve got to take this guy who does copyright for me and do a course with him.’ Of course, I knew you from South by Southwest. A course for them meant you and me talking, and you showing your screen and walking people through the courses, and I said, ‘I’ve got to try everything that I learned on Mixergy, or I’ve got to try everything even that I learned on App Sumo. I went out, and I used it in an email list in an email that I sent out. Like you said, I got over 100 percent open rate, which meant that people were opening it multiple times, which I never saw before. But apparently, A-Webber will let you see when people open up emails multiple times. You know what else is surprising about that? Most of my readers do not – they’re using stuff like Gmail where you have to click a button to show images. The only way that A-Webber knows that someone has opened an email is if they open an email and click the button to say ‘show images.’ This was an astounding open rate. It was just phenomenal.

Neville: The funny thing is, that’s lower than some of the other stuff I see.

Andrew: You’ve seen more at App Sumo.

Neville: The low end is over 100 percent sometimes. It’s just insane, if that’s like a testament to what we’re doing here.

Andrew: That’s why this interview doesn’t have teeth, because I’ve seen how well it’s done. I can’t go back and go, ‘Really? Have you done it?’ I actually, in the back of my head was saying, ‘I’m not pushing enough. Should I challenge him on whether he really talked to a tape recorder? Is that one of those nice things that you’re supposed to do so he says he did it? But, what the hell? That’s such a quibble to bring that up. I’m just saying… [SS]

Neville: Another testament is Noah has started completely changing the way he writes. He was like number 30 at Facebook and all that kind of stuff. He’s asked for interviews. Tim Ferris just posted a thing about Noah, and it’s already got 2,500 likes on Facebook, and 1000 Tweets. It’s got hundreds of comments already. It was like one of the most popular posts they did on there. It was because he wrote in a discerning, intense way that focused just on the customer. It didn’t go, ‘I’m so cool, etc.’ It didn’t do all that. Once you learn this kind of stuff, it literally changes the way you write and communicate for life. People have told me the course is probably one of the best things that has happened for their business. I’m not just tooting my own, no, fuck that, I am tooting my own horn over here. I absolutely am, but it really does change your mentality about writing and communicating in everything you do. It’s profound. OK. I’m done.

Andrew: No. Keep ranting, but give me another tactic. What else? A person who is listening to us has got a pen. Many of them have got pens in their hands right now. They want to write some notes on this so that they can use this tomorrow.

Neville: Here’s a life-changing quote I have. It was by the world-famous copyrighter, Gary Halbert. People in the direct response industry worship this guy like a god. He’s dead. He said, ‘The number one problem with people trying to make money,’ and that includes online and offline, ‘is they try to get a lot of money without first giving a tremendous amount of [??]’. Right? So they just put something out there and expect it to make a lot of money, without first giving a lot. Let’s take an example. Do you mind if I do an example about you?

Andrew: Yeah. Go for it. By the way, do you have anything running in the background? Maybe even Chrome, that could be eating away at your bandwidth? I want to make sure that people can hear you fully, and every once in a while, the connection goes a little soft. What often happens with interviewees is that they have Dropbox that suddenly kicks in in the middle of the interview and sinks in the background, but sucks away their bandwidth.

Neville: OK. I am closing out all this other crap.

Andrew: OK.

Neville: That should be better. I closed Chrome and everything else.

Andrew: Good. OK. Yes, use me as an example.

Neville: OK. For example, you are Andrew Warner. When you started Mixergy, I don’t think you had any monetization on your site whatsoever, right?

Andrew: Yeah, no.

Neville: I notice you’re trying to monetize it by giving out these courses and all that kind of stuff. The funny thing is that you have almost [600] interviews or something right now, and you’re doing it out of the goodness of your heart. You’re giving away a business education every time you do one of these things, for free. Whenever it comes time for you to monetize, it’s going to be pretty easy for you compared to other people. People can’t just build a Mixergy and start charging right off the bat. It’d be very difficult. Someone like you has given away so much, that when it comes time to start charging for courses and things like that, it’s going to be a lot easier for you than other people. Here’s how this applies to the person. This isn’t just a concept. Here is what you do. Remember I told you when you send an e-mail to someone or tell them, let’s say your company has a video. You don’t say like “we’re Kernest and we do fonts.” You don’t just interest them with stuff. You offer them the benefit of it. You say, here’s how, we’re going to show you how to make money by using out font service. Or, here’s how to improve your career by listening to these during your lunch break. Something like that. And educating someone on how to lose weight and make money, look better. That stuff’s is always in demand. Offer them like tons of good information. It’s almost so much that you want to charge for it. If you’re not…

Andrew: Now, if you’re writing just an e-mail, trying to get somebody to just come to your site, click a button and buy, how can you give them value before hand?

Neville: You show them…

Andrew: We don’t always have months and months and months of time to offer free interviews or free whatever, and then hope that one day when it’s time for us to sell that people can buy. Sometimes we just want to sell right away. How can we sell right away?

Neville: I do it every simple time with the Appsumo e-mails. Within a page or two I explain, I get their attention, I interest them with the cool facts. The desire part I usually say, “hey, are you a developer?” Here’s how you use screener to make your customers happier and, in parentheses, make more money because of it. So now, I’m educating them. And it doesn’t have to be a lot. All I’m saying is, if you use Screener and it’s this kind of like You Tube’esque kind of thing but it’s private for your customers and everything. If you use Screener you can get your customers, instead of saying, hey this part of the website didn’t work, they can click a record button and show their screen activity immediately without a download, right? This means you can handle your customer support better and you then you can also upsell them on this. I show them step by step how to make money. And that only is like a couple of sentences long. It’s just like a 1, 2, 3 bullet point list. But the point is, that might be concise and small but you are giving them a tremendous amount of value on how to make their business better. If your product isn’t somehow making their business better or you can’t come up with something about that, then….

Andrew: Alright.

Neville: No offense.

Andrew: I see what you are saying. You are saying even if it’s going to be one ad that’s supposed to get people to buy right away at the end of reading that ad. Within the ad you can give them some benefit that they can take away and get results from and you’re almost feeling a little bit like you are robbing yourself by giving that away without them buying. If that’s the way that they trust you, feel that your valuable and want to get more from you.

Neville: See if I was a scared little wuss I would be like, well I’m not going to give Andrew all this information, I’m going to make him buy my copyrighting course and tell his audience to do the same. But no, by giving away this information people are going to be more curious about the copyrighting course because I’ve given away so much good information. They’re like, well he already has such good stuff to say in that short amount of time, clearly this product has more. Most people are like, I am going to hoard all that information to myself. But then, what are you giving them? Give them something to take action. You have to give them a lot and expect just a little. You have to give them a lot of good information and expect just an e-mail sign up. Something like that. You have to give before you get.

Andrew: I see, Ok. By the way, we installed Spring Metrics on the site recently. And I can see, I’ve started monitizing where I sell all the old interviews and also sell courses. And I think the number one thing that determines whether someone buys or not, or the one thing that all the buyers have in common is, a lot of hits on the site. That I can see over the weekend as orders were coming in, I saw, what did these people do before hand? This software, Spring Metrics, let’s me see what they did before they bought and what they did even for months on the site. And I can see that people who buy have been the site over and over, some of them every day. One guy was on the site, I think, more than I was in the last two months, and then he bought over the weekend. And so that made me think well we should just find more ways to give people value and get them to come back on the site and then of course getting them to come back and buy.

Neville: Let me give you an example. Gary Halbert, he was an old school direct marketer. And he was like 60 or 65 years a couple of years ago, so he was an older dude. He started in the days when the internet just did not exist. And he knew the principles of marketing really well and selling. So the cool thing about this is that he wasn’t just this internet marketer guy or just a direct response guy. He understood that people cared about the benefits of stuff. So someone introduced him to the internet a long time ago, like back when a list serve was high tech shit, right. Like you could send it to a company at Mixergy.com and an e-mail would shoot to everyone in the company. So there would be like all these list serves of people that would like discuss money. So he did this like clever, he was like, I don’t even know what this internet is. He had to get someone to send an e-mail because he didn’t know how to use a computer. He said: well, I bet these people, if their into money they would like to know how to make more money, right? So, I have a book about making money. So he sent out this little email to people, saying: Hey, you guys are all into money but you still don’t know the best way to make it, I make this much money a month. It almost sounded like one of those scammy marketing letters or something, but it fucking worked so, so well. Like whenever you understand what people want, you can get them to buy over any media, Tumbler, Facebook, it doesn’t really matter. Once you understand the principles of this stuff.

Andrew: How do we get that, there’s some PDF floating around on the internet with all of his old newsletters or a collection of his old newsletters. Noah gave it to me at a conference once. I’d love to get it in the hands of my audience. Do you know how we can do it? Do we all have to talk to you or Noah? Or is it available online somewhere?

Neville: The Gary Halbert letters? Oh God, it’s great. Here, I’m going to give you, this is like.

Andrew: Is it on your website?

Neville: This is a golden nugget, I swear to God listen up, if you don’t I don’t give a shit. The people that actually go through with this will probably change their lives, I am not even kidding. If you go, just Google the Gary Halbert letter, figure out how to spell it yourself. And you’ll type, you’ll go to his website and at the bottom it says, newsletter archives. This website looks like a piece of shit, I know. What you’re going to see is this page with literally hundreds of letters from him, you’re going to get overloaded with imaging. Here’s what you do. Do a search on the page and type in the Boron letters, Boron the element. Type in the Boron letters and go to chapter 1. Do yourself a favor, I’m not kidding, spend $5 and get a pack of printer paper and an extra print cartridge and print out chapters 1 through 25. Don’t read them online, I would highly suggest just printing these out, that’s the original form they were intended. Print out the Boron letters chapters 1 through 25 and read those. Really, like enough said, that pretty much launched my, I am making so much more money now than I used to I actually had to get a CPA to help me structure all this shit. That’s what launched it. I am not kidding. And it’s like the most fun stuff you’ll ever read. I was up until 6 in the morning every day reading stuff because I was going back and thinking, Oh my God, I can’t believe I did this the wrong way. End of rant, you get the story. Do it. If you don’t, I don’t give a shit. The people that do will get rewarded.

Andrew: His writing is getting a cult-like following online, and it’s worth it. I’m so glad that I read it. Alright, let’s give people another tactic. I’m going back and forth in my head between spending more time on Gary’s writing or pursuing another tactic with you, but I think we’ve got to go with more tactics here. Let’s fill this out.

Neville: Oh, I closed out my Chrome browser so now I don’t have those up.

Andrew: Oh, one from memory, don’t even open it up. Let’s see if there’s one that really stands out for you and if there isn’t I’ll prod you.

Neville: How to make good subject lines, this is always this like big thing that people are always blah, blah, blah, how do I make a subject line? I’m going to give you the laziest method possible, how about that? Because a lot of people think they aren’t creative when they actually are. I’m going to give you the dead simplest possibility. I don’t, I’m not showing my screen so follow along. If you’re watching this on a computer, follow along with this. Go to Digg.com. So, let me set up the premise, I’m sorry. Let’s say I’m writing an e-mail or trying to sell a course or something about learning HTML 5, right? HTML 5 is the new language that’s just kind of replacing Flash, and Steve Jobs loves it and all that kind of stuff. But, I don’t know how to communicate that well in an e-mail subject line or the header of a webpage or the name of an article, right?

Here’s how you get a socially proven subject line. You go to Digg.com, that’s D I G G, it’s a social bookmarking site and at the top right there’s going to be a little search box and you type in HTML 5, or HTML space 5, or HTML5 or whatever. And you click enter. Now, what happens is unremarkable, there’s going to be a list of shitty little subject lines. What you do is somewhere in the middle of the page, find it yourself, you click: most dugg. You filter by the “most dugg” articles. All of a sudden, in one screen shot you’re going to see about eight headlines. About four or five of those are going to be fantastic subject lines. So, I’ve actually done this example before and the top subject line is something like, Flash Being Eaten by HTML 5. Like something pretty juicy, right? The next one is The Difference Between HTML 5 and HTML 4. All you do is literally copy and paste that subject line, stick it in your e-mail. That’s it. Done. You had to do zero thinking to get something like that. And this will work if you do wallets, if you sell interviews. It doesn’t matter what you sell, there will always be something relevant, you can just scalp one of those lines from. You can use it as the header of your webpage or whatever to get people’s attention.

Andrew: I see. So, you’ve got something that you’re trying to promote, trying to get people to just open up an e-mail list, you get the topic, you search for it on Digg. You see what headlines have been the most dugg, and those are the ones you want to use.

Neville: Yeah, and I actually had a friend who was selling wallets online, and I told him to use this. He was like, ‘Well, I don’t get it. What do I do? I have the best dugg here.’ I’m like, ‘Well, let’s look at what’s a really juicy headline.’

Keep in mind, he was selling carbon fiber wallets. The headline was how to make a wallet out of duct tape and dollar bills, something along those lines. It’s kind of like a curiosity, like, ‘I kind of want to see that.’

So what I told him to do, copy the article, it was on instructables or something. Show everyone on his newsletter list, here’s a cool way to make your own wallet. Then you segue into selling your own wallets. You’re giving them cool information, therefore they’ll be more curious about your products.

Instead of sending out an email block saying, ‘We have carbon fiber wallets, buy, buy, buy,’ give them good information and somehow segue shortly into your products. It’s all from this Digg method. You can come up with so many ideas through Digg.

Andrew: Your life has changed a lot since you’ve gotten this copywriting stuff down. Do you feel comfortable telling me about one fun thing that has happened as a result of all this?

Neville: Oh God, the work is so much more fun.

Andrew: The work is more fun, but have you gotten so confident that you’ve found yourself buying an iPad and just going, ‘I can’t believe I’m not even thinking about the money behind the iPad.’ Life is that good. Or taking a trip.

Neville: You know how you whenever you hear rich people like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates say, ‘Oh, it’s not about the money’? That’s because they have a lot of f***ing money, and it’s not valued to them. They have enough of it, why would I care?

I live in the United States, I have enough food. I never think, ‘Oh my God, it’s so great to have food.’ When I go to India and people don’t have food, you’re just like, ‘Damn, it’s pretty great to have food.’

Those rich people say it’s not about the money, and they tend to get more and more successful. It’s because that stupid saying is true. Once these courses have been doing so well, the amount of money is beyond the threshold of what I could possibly spend per month. Now I don’t care about the money, I care about the quality, and how happy people are with the courses.

Andrew: You started doing copywriting for Noah after doing it on your own. You started doing it for Noah at [??]. You started doing really well there. Noah wanted a course on copywriting, so you and I got together and we did that one course. You said, ‘Oh, man, if this is doing well, I should do my own course.’ You did your own course on copywriting. Started selling that, that’s selling so well, you’re saying you’re just proud of the results that people get.

Neville: It’s just that I never got feedback like that before. I was using your personality, leeching off of yours like you said you did with Gary Vaynerchuk on your site, whenever you interviewed him about that.

Because I got a lot of exposure and gave away a lot of good s***, from that I’m not kidding, i got hundreds of emails and tweets about it. Still to this day, people give me feedback on my interview, saying, ‘Holy crap, that was the best hour and a half I ever watched. This changed my life. Check out my results.’

That was cool. People were getting real, actionable results just like you did, the very next day from that kind of stuff. I was just like, ‘If this is helping people that much, and we just did a ghetto little video, maybe there’s something going on over there.’

I wasn’t making much off that video, remember? After that I was like, ‘How can I make this such an awesome course?’ And just by the natural way of the universe, I was getting rewarded pretty heavily with money.

Andrew: If people want to reward you very heavily with money and get the whole course that I’ve been stealing information from, they just go to KopywritingKourse.com, that’s Kopywriting with a K, Kourse with a K. Why K?

Neville: I didn’t want it to be a copywriting course, ‘cuz it just sounded boring, so I was like, ‘If you just change the letter, k, it would be weird.’ Also, that domain happened to be available. At the last minute, I was like, ‘What do I call this?’ So I just called it Kopywriting Kourse.

Everyone asks the same question over and over, ‘Why is that with K’s?’ On the webpage, if you go there, the first thing it says is, ‘Damn . . . This is a copywriting course and we already spelled copy in the domain name.’ And I go on to explain, ‘Wait. You mean to tell me that grammatical errors are OK? That some of the best converting copy is not all professional and boring as all hell?’

I go on to say that the course is different. This is a different kind of course. We’re misspelling our own name, not taking ourselves too seriously, ‘cuz this is the kind of stuff you’re going to learn. If you want a typical copywriting course about how to write eloquently, this is definitely not the place for you.

I use the word damn right at the beginning, ‘cuz if someone’s offended by the word damn, I don’t want to deal with them. I don’t want them as a customer, and honestly, this probably isn’t the right fit. And so, I was pre-screening all these people. It just happened to be that I was pre-screening everyone to accept my style, and I don’t want bad customers either. I’ve had to deal with stupid customers in the past, and it made me miserable.

Andrew: You’re letting people know right off the bat, there’s a certain attitude that goes into your style of copywriting, that people need to understand it, and the word ‘copywriting’ being misspelled is part of that ethos.

Neville: Can I tell you the best example of this, and then I’m going to shut up? George Carlin, one of my favorite comedians, I think the guy is brilliant, he started off at Carnegie Hall, his whole stand-up series, with this statement, and if you’re going to be offended easily then don’t listen to this. He comes out on stage, everyone’s clapping, and he goes ‘Why, why, why, why is it that everyone you see at an abortion rally is someone you wouldn’t want to fuck in the first place?’ And he starts off at Carnegie Hall of all places with this crazy, offensive sentence. But, if you’re cool with that, you’re going to love the rest of the show. If you’re not cool with this, it may be time to pack your bags, and everyone will be happier. And so that’s kind of the concept. End of rant.

Andrew: Alright, I think that says a lot about the attitude that you bring to copywriting and the kind of people who you want to draw toward you. I have loved your copywriting, I have loved the way that you think about it, I’m really appreciative of how generous you’ve been. That course you talked about, the one where you and I were riffing and you showed your computer screen and showed how you got Digg. I think in real time you said ‘Andrew, throw out a topic,’ I threw out a topic, you typed it into Digg and you said ‘Look, there’s the perfect headline for that topic, and it’s right there and here’s how I would use it.’

Neville: And you tried testing me on that, I remember.

Andrew: I was pushing you because I wanted to make sure that, you know, I got to fight for my audience. All of that, everything you’ve described right there, people go to Mixergy.com/premium. If you have a premium membership, it’s part of your program, it’s part of what you’ve got. Someone over the weekend emailed me and said ‘Andrew, I can’t get access. Are you no longer giving me access to everything, are you being cheap or something?’ I go, no, your user name might be wrong, let’s find a way to go through it, but if you’re a premium member you get access to everything I created, including that copywriting course that I did with Neville, and if you want to take it to the next level, go to kopywritingkourse.com, misspell it, complete with attitude. I actually would recommend, even if you don’t buy it, go to it just to learn good copywriting. You just want to, I’d say, spy on Neville, but it’s not exactly spying. You want to learn by watching his process.

Neville: No, you can spy on me and steal all my secrets, that’s exactly what this is. It is literally to steal ideas out of my brain which, in all honesty, I read from other people and got them from other people’s brains. Steal all the secrets.

Andrew: Steal all the secrets.

Neville: Steal them and try to compete with me.

Andrew: They don’t even need to compete with you, the world is big enough that you guys can both do really well and exchange ideas, and I hope people do that, go to mixergy.com/premium, watch the one that we talked about. If you really want to take it to the next level go to kopywritingkourse.com. I don’t get a cut of that, I just want you to go and check out kopywritingkourse.com. And finally, I’m going to suggest this, please keep sending me your feedback, sending me your numbers. Oren Klaff, the guy who did a course on how to get funding with attitude, I asked people in the audience to use his ideas and then get back to me. I’ve been seeing the most phenomenal emails, people use what he taught and then they give attitude back.

It’s not attitude, it’s like the push-pull as he calls it. It’s too complicated to get into in the final minutes of this interview, but he says ‘Use the push-pull,’ and they’ve been using it with investors, and the results that they get are freaking phenomenal. On days when I’m low, I go in my inbox and I see something like that, and I feel like, ‘Ah, there’s a purpose for me on this planet.’ So please, use these ideas too, and send me your emails with your results. All I care about is results. I’m that kind of a Philistine, I just want to see you guys do well and you’ll help me realize my purpose on this planet. Thank you all for watching, look forward to your results. Goodbye.

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