Andrew: Hey there Freedom Fighters, my name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart. That’s what this is about ambitious. You know that’s the goal here to interview entrepreneurs who want to leave a mark on the world, and that takes a little bit of ambition, it takes a little bit of drive, and so I bring them on here for us to interview, learn from, and emulate some of the best ideas that we can, and people have asked me where do you get these guests that we don’t see on other sites?
Well, I’ll tell you how I found today’s guest. My team emailed the team over at Bigcommerce said to them, “Look, you guys have loads of online stores that are powered by your software you must have a company that is both successful and interesting that me and my, the Mixergy audience can learn from. Can you introduce us to them?” And they said yes we have the perfect guest for you, and that’s how we found today’s guest.
Kirsten Dickerson is a do-gooder who found a way to build a business that does a lot of social good. She’s the founder of RavenLily an ethical, what did I write here? Ethical fashion, boy my handwriting, I understand Kirsten is not right, but my typing should be clear, an ethical fashion and lifestyle brand. I loved her design so much that right after we’re done with this interview I’m going to buy jewelry for my wife for our anniversary.
The more I was on the site the more I was determined to do it, and this whole thing is sponsored by AndrewsWelcomeGate.com. Later on in the interview I’ll tell you why. If you’re looking to turn your emails into hits you’ve got to check out AndrewsWelcomeGate.com, but first I’ve got to greet my guest, Kirsten, welcome.
Kirsten: Thank you.
Andrew: I love the lighting. It’s because your husband, what does your husband do that he was able to tell us how to get good lighting on you, and have you look clear.
Kirsten: Well I mentioned to him I was doing this Skype interview and he couldn’t help himself but say, “Don’t forget honey to light yourself well, put it at a certain angle.” He just cracked me up, but he’s an independent film maker so he does movies, music videos, documentaries, the whole shebang.
Andrew: You know I wish that other guest would understand the value of that, they all want me to see the beautiful background that they have that the beautiful view outside the window behind them, and they don’t understand that view also casts a lot of light on the, on the webcam and darkens them up. Alright you are a do-gooder I said at the top of the interview, and your background is in non-profit work, what kind of non-profit work did you do?
Kirsten: It was actually a huge variety since about 1994 I have traveled to over 30 countries over the last 20 years, and many of them multiple times, doing everything from studying abroad to documentary work with my husband, as well as volunteer work with a variety of non-profits. So we’re mostly based like grass roots based…
Andrew: For example what’s one thing you did that helped do good in the world when you were traveling?
Kirsten: For a while when I used to live in Berkeley, California my husband and I founded a sponsorship program for a group of children living in a slum community in India, and we just found sponsorship for almost 100 children living in that community to be able to go to school, and other basic needs, and it was just the relationship I had with this doctor. She was an Indian doctor, who had a total compassion for this community around her, and she wanted to provide health care and education and so we partnered with her to do that on a very grass roots level.
Andrew: I’ve got a sense of the kind of things you’re doing, and then you went to India in 2007, it was a pivotal moment for you because what happened then?
Kirsten: Well because of all the relationships I had in India I really wanted to introduce some of my friends in Hollywood. I was living in Hollywood at the time because my husband’s film career, and we had a lot of connections to people who were very interested in social justice issues, really wanting to not just give to a big organization, but have more hands on relational connection and long term investment in seeing poverty alleviation.
So I took 10 people from Hollywood with a variety of backgrounds with me to India, and we visited three groups that I really believed in. One was the same group working with some community that was not only focusing on the children but now had started empowering the community for skills training, one was a group in Mumbai that had rescued young girls out of the brothels in were in aftercare homes also learning skills training, and a third was a group that was based in Himalayan Mountains reaching remote village and who had no job opportunities and also teaching them skills.
Andrew: So what was it about these groups that made you change the path of your life, and led you to this, to Raven and Lily?
Kirsten: I think up to that point, so between you know ’94 and 2007 I really saw myself as a connector, and I really enjoyed personally volunteering, but inviting people to go with me, and on that specifically I saw my love of design, which I do have a background in art direction and wardrobe styling working with my husband on the film sets, mostly music videos, and I loved it,
But my passion was always advocating for women and children, and connecting people to opportunities to do so, and on that trip the skills training in all three groups I mentioned happened to be focused on design, and my wheels started turning because I saw this opportunity to combine my love of design and fashion with my passion to alleviate poverty by connecting people with the design world that I knew in L.A. with these groups to help see what could be if we take this.
Andrew: Because their designs, while well meaning, weren’t the kind of things we would be looking at and saying, “I’ve got to get this for my wife.” That’s going to look so beautiful.
Kirsten: I would say it’s more like, I call it a pity sale, for lack of a better term because you want to buy it because you love the story behind it. But it’s not necessarily something you would use of wear or buy again. The thought was, “Gosh, if they have the skills, how can we scale the skills to hire quality? How can we open up a market? What’s possible here? And we just began this trial and error at the nonprofit for a few years to work with these groups.
Andrew: I know what you’re talking about. I hate to use the phrase “pity sale” but that’s what it often is. You want to buy something just so you can send some money to people who are in need and do good, but then if you don’t wear it, you’re not excited about it and you don’t want to keep buying it. You don’t want to spread the word the way we do about RavenLily. And that’s what got you to think about all this, but then you needed to get some money. You needed to get some people. You needed to get some customers.
The money came from remnants of what? Of other what?
Kirsten Well, really the focus was for me, just to clarify what you just said, that I really wanted to alleviate the poverty in ways that brought dignity and sustainability. And so the idea was, “Okay, how could I take this idea of skills training and turn it into something that could be income generating and sustainable for these women.
And I didn’t have outside investors. I didn’t have any big donors. I just had these great connections to talented designers in L.A., and I went back and had a team of five designers. Some were apparel, jewelry, and graphic designers that agreed to partner with me for a year to offer their skills and their time to come alongside these groups, three in India and two in Africa that I also had relationship with in a similar story and see what we could come up with design-wise in order to raise some money for them while we were starting to partner with these groups.
We started talking to some of the designers that had design houses and production in L.A. about donating their remnants. These were designers as high end as [inaudible] who gave us their remnants from their production and give us permission to repurpose them and sell them to raise money . . .
Andrew: Remnants, meaning like leather and what else?
Kirsten: High end silk. It was mostly leather and high end silk. Then we repurposed those things into smaller accessories, everything from hand stitched scarves, I mean, [inaudible] scarves to beautiful scarves. And we sold that for our seed money for our first trip to India.
Andrew: Who made them? Who made the scarves? You did?
Kirsten: The final of this, we had volunteer parties in the back of my house in Los Angeles on a regular basis, and people would come sometime. It was amazing. People would show up with their sewing machines just to contribute to help to make things out of these remnants so that we could start to sell it. And we would just sell it at local markets and farmers markets. And just we would host events, you know, like elaborate dinner parties, and we would sell things just whatever we would come up with. That was all donated volunteer time. And then . . .
Andrew: Everybody was donating because they knew that the money you were using was going to go toward finding people in need, training them, getting them material so that they could turn that material into products that people would love.
Kirsten: It’s basically seed money, and we used it in those India groups that I mentioned, and we foot the bill to get into India, the expenses to do our first trip there for me and two other designers I mentioned.
Andrew: How much money did you need? How much seed money?
Kirsten: It’s funny that you asked. I can’t even remember the exact money, but it was probably about $5,000, not too much at the time. So just sales at Christmas was our first sale. It was like a one-time sale, and we went in January and February. So that was how we started, and we went to Africa that following August.
After coming back, we came back from that first trip and started having product to sell from the women that funded our work in Africa. So at the time . . .
Andrew: Do you remember your first sale?
Kirsten: Yes, it was in December. We had a little church that we went to in Hollywood, on Hollywood Boulevard, and set up like a little, we called it, an alternative Christmas market and sold everything that I had come back from that trip to India with. It was, like I said, slightly pity sales, the idea of what we were trying to do. And this was December of 2007, actually.
It was off the charts. We sent all the money back to the groups at that point, but the idea started churning and that’s when I started talking to those designers. But just seeing the response, so 100% of everything we brought back from that trip . . .
Andrew: Were you nervous about selling this stuff back, especially since you thought, “This is amateur stuff, it’s not what I envisioned. So were you nervous about selling it?
Kirsten: We branded it really well to make look even better [laughs]. So I’m all about branding, and we started RavenLily with a focus on the kind of style and the feel we would create this brand to be. Even back then, before we even had a name for what we were doing, we created tags and had a volunteer group that came over and spent a lot of time packaging, tagging, and merchandising what we brought back to make it look even better. It really worked.
Andrew: I used to live in Los Angeles. If something doesn’t look right, people will let you know. It feels out of place there.
Kirsten: Yes.
Andrew: Now you had the seed money. It was time to actually go and see if you can turn that seed money into designed products. What’s the first step you took to do that?
Kirsten: The first trip was January and February that three of us went to India. We had, before that, sent over a lot of design ideas to the groups. They presented it with us what they did with the design ideas we brought over. On the spot we worked through changes, and came home with samples that we started trying to market and see what could happen. As a nonprofit we did a lot of our R&D in just figuring out how this works. We went to Ethiopia and Kenya the following August. We went over with a lot of designs based on having a limited idea of the resources they had access to.
Andrew: I want to understand the first time you went back. You went back there with designs and material. The material wasn’t local, it came from the U.S.
Kirsten: No. At that time I was familiar with what they had access to because I had been there.
Andrew: I see. You knew the material they had there. You showed it to your designers, and you said, “What would you do with this, considering the level of skill that we have? Great.” You then went back, you said to India? Or was it Kenya?
Kirsten: The first trip was to India.
Andrew: India. You showed it to them, and were they able to reproduce the designs that you brought in with you?
Kirsten: Yes, and no. With the India groups, we started with three and then narrowed it down to one that was going to work. It took a year to see could they all do it, and in the end, only one was able to not just create high-end quality designs with the skills and materials they had available to them, but the other part was the point person. The key to the success of RavenLily is that point person on the other end. Usually they’re indigenous, sometimes they’re a Westerner who’s lived over there a long time, but they really advocate for the women.
They know what is needed for the women, but they understand the expectations of the West when it comes to quality and on-time delivery and scalability. That person’s the key to success for these women because the women have no access to email. They usually don’t even speak English, so I’m reliant on having a great middle person to work with, that advocates for them.
Andrew: Then you bring it back to the US. It’s time to test and see if there’s a market for it. Where did you sell the original designs that you brought back?
Kirsten: It was at our little house parties.
Andrew: It was still house parties.
Kirsten: Yes, and house parties is a successful model for a lot of people. I wanted to take it out of catering to stay-at-home moms, and take it into the mainstream marketplace. We started with house parties and some events, but as soon as we understood which designs were popular, after a few years of that, we changed models.
Andrew: House parties usually have a financial incentive for the person who’s hosting the parties, like those old Tupperware parties. Did you do that?
Kirsten: No. We would just gift something to people, a gifted item. In the beginning, we were nonprofit. It was new. There are so many examples of social businesses that have emerged in the past couple years. It’s truly exciting to see this is really taking off. At that time I had on my advisory board people from Ten Thousand Villages, one of the few retail examples of Fair Trade, and we were trying to take the idea of Fair Trade, but something more higher-end and on a different level. Other than that, there was not a lot of examples of this going on. We were doing a lot of trial and error, and trying to figure out what people really like in this arena, and then what are the women succeeding at making for us.
Andrew: I see. Because of your mission and nonprofit status, they were willing to contribute their time and sell to their friends at these house parties. You mentioned at some point you outgrew it. What was the next step, then, for selling?
Kirsten: Once we started seeing which partnerships were successful on the international end and what was popular on our end, we made the decision to move from a nonprofit into a social-business model in the May, June time of 2011. That was the time that my family had moved to Austin earlier that year. The reason we made that transition was for scalability, and also, as I studied more from people like Mohammed Unis and others, that the most dignity that can be brought to these women is to give them the opportunity to develop dignity and a sustainable job income through these kind of social business models even in their countries their business relationship with us rather than a traditional charity model.
Andrew: I see. So charity doesn’t have as much dignity and longevity as working together on a business.
Kirsten: I think that there’s important times for charity nonprofit work, and I’m very supportive and we still give back as a company, but I changed models to give more upfront, that the income that the women earned would give them the ability to send their kids to school, have access to health care, be in a supportive environment, and really be able to provide for themselves and know that what they’re making is valued which brings value back to them.
Andrew: I heard that Ethiopia had a part in your switching from nonprofit to for profit status. What happened there?
Kirsten: After we really developed that relationship with one group, in particular, in Ethiopia. They were a group of HIV positive women. They had all been abandoned in a mountain outside of the capital where there were holy waters that were said to wash them and help cure them of AIDS. And unfortunately a lot of these women were left on this mountain, and their families just really suffered. So they became beggars or just really lacked access to health care and dignity of any kind.
And so they were truly suffering in this one community on this mountain. And a nonprofit that I had a relationship with and that I had known about for years was really wanting to reach this community of women and train them in skills to give them some chance to earn income but ultimately to earn their trust and get them access also to health care and education for their children which was lacking 100% in that area.
So we started a very small group of women who were willing to try this. It was very risky for them because at that time they’re kind of going against the traditional Orthodox church in that community that was saying, “You have to trust some of these holy waters” and . . .
Andrew: And you’re telling them, “No, trust in commerce.”
Kirsten: Yes. And so it was a challenging bridge for these women to take that big step and kind of go over, and very few, a very small group of women decided to try it. And once they started earning income and started making designs and it was working, it just became a ripple effect. There’s over 150 women in that partnership now with a huge wait list of women that want to be a part of it. They just have to get a bigger facility because it’s grown so much, but it truly turned into something sustainable.
And the women that I met in 2008 now are thriving. The last time I visited and took friends to see them the ones that have been involved the most, the most skilled, they had like their hair done. They even had cell phones. Some of them had moved off the mountain back into [inaudible]. They were no longer being HIV positive. They were healthy. They wanted to prove that it is possible to live a productive life. They’re sending their kids to school. I mean, it was truly transforming. It was no doubt contagious to all of these other women and there’s thousands on there.
So we’re still barely helping the whole, but the director of that partnership is committed to helping the whole. And so that’s kind of her vision. We’re just partnering with her to help her reach that vision.
Andrew: Were the original materials that they were using in Ethiopia bullet casings?
Kirsten: Yes. That’s actually why, I think, we wanted to incorporate for profit because we stumbled across a story that was so powerful. We had found these beads on our first trip in the market that were just beautiful, not perfect metal beads. You know, you could tell they were handmade, but at the market you’re buying from the middle man in the market. They won’t tell you where they came from. They wouldn’t give us any information.
So it took a while for the Ethiopians to kind of stake out and stalk who was selling the beads to the market and once they saw the villagers coming in, they actually followed them. These are our Ethiopian contacts, followed them and built relationships with the key village man and this one was Abraham.
Once they earned Abraham’s trust he invited them to come to the village to see the process of making the beads. And when our Ethiopian contacts went to these remote villages, they were extremely remote in Ethiopia. When they went out there, they were in these very traditional mud and grass huts over these little coal fires melting bullet casings that were found in the surrounding fields by farmers.
And they were bullet casings from the former wars in Ethiopia. And the villagers were melting them and then, you know, hammering them and molding them into these beautiful beads and charms for selling in the market. So the capabilities were amazing what we could do to partner with that village and another three different villages that we formed relationships with to make the beads to take to the women.
Andrew: Unreal.
Kirsten: I know. That story is very redemptive what was once meant for harm now brings [inaudible] life to these women.
Andrew: You know, I want to continue with your story, but something’s hitting me that I bet is hitting the person that’s listening to us which is how do we do this? If we’re not creating jewelry, we’re not exactly copying what you’re doing, but we want to be inspired by it and add some meaning into the work that we do. How do we find what our mission is? How do we find the group of people that our work can help out the way that your work does?
Kirsten: You know, that’s a really good question. I have two kids and sort of a topic of conversation we have all the time. They actually go to an entrepreneurial school that really focuses on helping young people discover their . . .
Andrew: Is that in Austin?
Kirsten: Yeah, it’s called the Acton Academy, and they focus on helping young people discover their gifts and talents and how to contribute positively back to society. So they don’t have to wait to college to figure out what they’re going to do after that.
Andrew: I love that.
Kirsten: Yeah, I know. It’s a pretty awesome model that really resonates with my husband and I because we both are able to do what we’re passionate about. He’s passionate about being a storyteller, and I’m passionate about advocating for women and children. I think because my husband and I are so different, we’re both able to do something in our passion. It just can’t be about personally making money.
So for me we want to do good. The focus has to be . . .
Andrew: Where did you find it? I know my personal mission is to help people build businesses. That’s the thing I needed most when I was a kid, and there wasn’t an entrepreneurial school for me. And I know that that’s what all the entrepreneurs that I interview on Mixergy are getting to do here every time they do an interview.
How do I find someone in a less developed part of the world where they don’t have access to this and help them out? I don’t want to be a guy who just flies on a plane and says, “You are a stranger. I will help you.” That comes across, it is very arrogant. It also comes across as arrogant but I also don’t have your time.
I was looking at your background. You spend a lot of time, and really, like you said, 30 countries, I think you said, going out and being working in the field. I can’t do that either. So how do we, how do I find that mission?
Kirsten: I honestly think it depends on your circle of influence. So it’s absolutely possible. Austin’s been known for the [inaudible] movement and being at the forefront of the kind of farm to table organic movement that’s being spread throughout the country. And the reason I chose to be in Austin was because I felt like as a community that it would support other socially minded type businesses.
So ours might have fashion because I love fashion, but I feel like there’s so many exciting things happen. I’m friends with photographers that I’ve used because of their love of photography to partner with nonprofit. They still get paid, they don’t do it for free. But they are just experts at what they do in photography and videography and then offer their skills.
Some are based here. Some are overseas, to be able to say, “Let me help tell you your story.” Or there’s people that were experts with web development that want to give back. So they say . . .
Andrew: How do you find organizations that need your skill, whether it be photography or entrepreneurship interviews? How do you find that? What do you do?
Kirsten: I think it’s intentional to be honest. I think you have to decide . . . I tend to think globally. There’s not one region in the world that I’m more interested in than another. It’s kind of everything. I just got back from Guatemala a couple of days ago. I had never been and loved it. I’m passionate about Southeast Asia and Africa.
So I realized I’m wired globally. Some people can tell they’re just really drawn to certain cultures. I think you can now have such access to so many programs online through searches that can introduce you to different nonprofit efforts. And then there’s great accountability websites that can tell you how they’re doing at the nonprofit.
And then you kind of take it from there and look for ones I think are more grass roots, and smaller is better because you get more personal connection with what’s going on. And so many of these groups now offer opportunities to go and visit, whether it’s based in the states or overseas. So it’s really just being intentional and . . .
Andrew: Where do you find these groups?
Kirsten: It’s really online. If you’re really looking too . . .
Andrew: Yes.
Kirsten: . . . I would recommend using the web because there’s so many . . .
Andrew: Start Googling, start looking around for organizations that share your mission. Start being involved in those organizations and then the way that you can help them will naturally come about, the way that you’ve discovered your mission.
Kirsten: You have to be a listener. I think it has to be approaching, doing your research and then really listening to what real viable needs are in your areas of interest and not saying, “This is what I want to do for you” but really coming out of this a teachable and humble approach to listening and learning. And then building a relationship and trust with an organization, whether it’s local or global and kind of seeing how you could be involved.
But there’s always reasons for asking for money, but if you’re wanting a connection I think you have to be super intentional. But it’s absolutely possible. And pretty much anything anyone does, there is a way that you can use that gift or skill in a meaningful way these days.
Andrew: All right. Back to your way of doing it. There’s actually a YouTube video, isn’t there? Of the women who are taking bullets and turning them into jewelry?
Kirsten: Yes.
Andrew: Right? I see it here. Actually it was big on Upworthy and it’s something that you guys produced.
Kirsten: It is. It’s just based on photos. We had so many people asking me a couple of years ago about the process that we just took the photos and put together the little story just to better explain it. So it’s available on our website for people to see. It’s pretty short.
Andrew: Yes, it’s on our site too. Just a two and a half minute video, and it’s got thousands of views on it.
Kirsten: Yeah.
Andrew: All right. So that was that was Ethiopia. In India you had a few female artisans-I’m looking here at my notes-whose husbands left them. You worked with them to do what?
Kirsten: Well, we work with actually four groups in India right now. Some of them aren’t main partnerships, but the main group that I’ve been working with for many years is based actually in a Muslim community. It’s a really poor, city-based Muslim community. It’s more conservative, so the women traditionally did not have an education and did not leave the home.
But there was one woman in particular. Her name is Ferdose [sp], and I know her, and I’ve visited her. I’ve even brought my daughter with me to India to meet them and spend time in their homes. But she was the mother of five children and her husband left her after her fifth girl was born because he really, I don’t know why, but felt shame about having so many girls.
In that culture that was not a good place to leave Ferdose and her daughters. So they really suddenly were without any support system. The girls had no access to school. They were even struggling just to provide food. So she was aware of a fair trade organization in her community that had been employing some of the men. So she actually went to them and said, “Can you help me and my family?” which was huge that she would step out to do that. This is full burqa society.
And so she went to them and they said, “Yes.” And it took a while to find a skill that she felt comfortable with, and it ended up being jewelry making. And so then she taught her oldest daughters, and they started fulfilling orders. So when I came across them, they were making some jewelry. And again, it was not anything that I was going to wear or sell, but they had the skills, and they already had ownership over that. So they worked with the fair trade kind of factory-studio there, but it was their business and they were just partnering with the fair trade company to fulfill it.
So when we partnered, we brought designs that utilized their local materials, which were leather and wood at that time in that community, and brought some ideas that have become our top sellers and been featured in In Style Magazine and People Style Watch and Glamour, and many, many more, which we’ve been selling for years. We have not stopped selling them because they’re so popular, and it’s just simple wood and leather jewelry that these women make, but it has enabled her to…
Now she’s doing great. Her children are in school. She is thriving. She feels famous, knowing that people are making the designs that we sell all over the world, and she feels like a successful businesswoman, which I love. There is so much pride. And the last time I visited her |with my daughter, which was a year and a half ago, I was on her rooftop and we were having tea and just laughing and having a great time, and she said, “You know, Kirsten, now when girls…the women in my community give birth to girls, they no longer mourn but rejoice, because they see the value that girls can bring to our society,” which is amazing.
So it’s not just transforming her and her children, but it’s… it’s affecting the whole culture of how women are viewed in that community without compromising their religious beliefs or morals. It’s being done with respect, where it’s being respected by the whole community, which I am so supportive of. |
Andrew: And the end product is beautiful. I can’t help but scroll |through your website, through ravenandlily.com, as we talk to just see some of these things. I see your necklace. That’s called the Ramsha Geometric Leaf Statement Necklace?
Kirsten: Yep, this is made by Ferdose and her family, and then they trained several other women. They do all the work in their homes, but many women throughout the community are making them.|
Andrew: I want to ask you how you got customers, because it’s not enough to just create these things of beauty. It’s not enough to just find a supply for them. But you need to find customers. But before I do, I have to live up to my obligation to my sponsor and say to people… Actually, here. Let me tell you guys why we created this. I co-created this with a company |called leadpages.net, and I did it because I had a guy come over to my site and say, “You know what? I can’t believe years ago I was on the site and I just thought it wasn’t for me because all the interviews seemed to be geared towards people who had funding, and so I dismissed Mixergy and I walked away,”
And then he said, “You know, a long time afterwards I came back and I realized, no, you also do interviews with people who had no funding, people who bootstrapped, people who started by working for a company and then spun that business out into their own business” and said, “You know, I just didn’t know it.” And it helped me understand that there is a problem on my site, which is people come in and if they don’t immediately find what they like, they assume the site isn’t for them and they walk away.
And what you realize when you build a website is that often happens to your hits. And so what I did was I talked to a buddy of mine, Noah, and I said, “What should I do?” And he said, “Tell people what your site is about and ask them to give you their email address and then give them access to the site. That way if the first thing they see isn’t the perfect hit for them, or maybe what you have today… none of what you have today is the perfect hit for them, you can still continue that relationship with them, check in with them from time to time, and offer them other things that might be of use to them.”
And so that’s what we have now. We have a page that I… Actually, I didn’t. A company called Sticker Mule designed it for me. I AB tested it up the wazoo and we found the perfect design, and now I want to make that design available to you. If you have hits and you realize that you don’t want hits, you want relationships with people who come to your sites, you have time to explain your product over months so that you get to keep staying in touch with them. If you want that, you can use the template that works for me and customize it and have it work for you. All you have to do is go to AndrewsWelcomeGate.com, AndrewsWelcomeGate.com. For a buck you can put it on your site. You can test it out. You can adjust it.
Many people in the Mixergy audience have tried it. I see it now more and more, and it works. In fact, you’ll get stats to show you how well it works. So go to AndrewsWelcomeGate.com and sign up.
So what about users? Not users, what about customers? What did you do after the house parties?
Kirsten: Well, when . . . I started mention it but didn’t really explain but when we moved to Austin and I saw that the [inaudible] jewelry that I just told you about that they were very successful in delivering on-time, high quality, beautiful designs and we had scalability.
We had been working with them the longest so not only had the women grown, the designs had been tested, so I went to a whole other level. And I moved into the social business model based in Austin and launched and started doing full sales, launched our website in 2011 and just sort of grew it from there. So we were still pretty small.
I mean, this year alone we’re growing over 100% when we finish this year. So it’s been kind of fast growth over the last couple of years, but we launched to another level definitely in 2011.
Andrew: But a website isn’t enough. You still need to have people come in, and I mentioned the Upworthy video seems to have sent some traffic your way. You were on TreeHugger, I think, a couple of times on there. That helped you get traffic. What else? What allowed you to get people to come and check out your work?
Kirsten: I think it was a combination of things. I really think for me the key was that I found a wonderful P.R. company early on. That we were really searching out P.R. and in early 2011 and what that might look like and obviously it was a huge investment for a young company like us. And it was very thoughtful about how I would use my resources, but a company in particular that also reached out to me.
And when we were looking at all the companies, they understood the social business space more than any other group that I came across. So it was really drawn to them, and I decided to give it a try. And they’ve done an incredible job of helping us tell our story and getting us to a lot of top locations, including FastCompany and others, TV shows, connecting us to some celebrity endorsements.
But also it’s been very organic and not forced. It’s been a good fit, and I think that P.R. has driven people to go to our website and learn more about us. And stores even discover us, and we just keep growing. As I grow my team, how we expand from there. But I do think P.R. coupled with imagery is, I think, very important, and I think the [inaudible] film maker has helped me. And the original [inaudible] on the Raven label was a graphic designer.
So we started a company focused on branding that we really wanted to set ourselves apart from the traditional trade look. And we come out as being something that reflected our style which was a modern organic style and a little better more higher end than the traditional fair trade. So attainability but not couture but definitely higher end.
And I think the branding and our photography and our efforts in that really helped. But it’s important [inaudible].
Andrew: Let’s unpack that, the design absolutely. I’m on the website right now, and I can see the photos look stunning. There’s one with a group of people who are outside this – is it an Airstream?
Kirsten: It’s my personal Spartan.
Andrew: It’s yours?
Kirsten. Yeah.
Andrew: Okay.
Kirsten: It’s my 1955 Spartan Mansion is what it’s called, but it’s a vintage trailer.
Andrew: Vintage trailer. They’re standing outside of it. I see. So it’s just your trailer and how much does it cost to do a shoot like this?
Kirsten: Well, I think, because of my experience in doing a lot of production with my husband, our photo shoots look super expensive, but they’re not. So that one, I mean, almost nothing. I mean, everybody that was there was either on my team already. The blonde model is the wife of the founder of Tom’s shoot [inaudible] and the other, the brunette is the wife of the founder of DeepEddyVodka and SweetTV.
So I have like connections to these other entrepreneurs, and I knew their wives. And they have done modeling, and I said, “Hey, I usually do photo shoots overseas, like let’s do this one close to home on my land for fun.” So they volunteered, and it was pretty much a combination of pro bono, I think, just the joy of creativity.
We just got back from Kenya in June. I did a photo shoot after visiting our five partnerships in Kenya. You have not seen all of them because we haven’t unfolded all of them, but we have five partnerships in Kenya alone, so I went to go see all of them, work on design, and at the end of it I decided to go to Lamu Island, which is somewhere that I had studied in 1994, so 20 years ago I studied there, and I knew it’d be a beautiful place to capture our spring collection in 2015.
So I contacted a fashion photographer who’s a good friend of mine that’s always said let me know, I can help you. She’s based in New York, so I said if I cover your expenses will you come, and she said yes.
So basically I think it’s that opportunity of I’ve invited people to go with me on these journeys and I try to cover their expenses, but they give their time and talents, and I don’t ask them to do that ongoing and all the time, but I think for them it’s rewarding to be able to…
Andrew: I bet, you make it look great! It was Scott Harrison, the founder of Charity Water, who really made me aware of the power of beautiful imagery, that it wasn’t just a good message, but a good message communicated well, and photos of the wedding communicated.
All right so, I get that now, what about PR? It’s not enough to just hire a PR Agency and let them go, the good ones do something that separates them from the others. What did your PR Company do that allowed you to tell your message and get others to care about it?
Kirsten: They’re a boutique, they were all women, which is kind of a good fit for us, I think they understood our brand and they were personally dedicated to [??] because of our social cause, and the director of the PR company went with me to one of my first ambassador trips where I invited people to go with me to Africa, and she came. I think her getting to come and see firsthand what we’re doing just sold her.
So she went back with me on this last trip in June, and so I called her my Assistant Stylist on the photo shoot, so she was incredible. We had Catt Sadler from E! Entertainment that joined us, and so she came because we had a celebrity person with us, and to advocate for that, and I think also she just loves coming, and I think she’s just able to first hand tell the story.
Honestly part of our success, is that she went back, and today this PR company represents mostly social businesses. They ended up changing their model and moving forward they decided they would dedicate themselves to promoting companies. They’re not all fashion companies, but a variety companies that are all in the space of wanting to be for profit but giving back. So they’ve completely transformed themselves also the PR company to focus on that specifically.
Andrew: So, a lot of things seem to come back to relationships, how did you build all of these great relationships? Like with the founder of Tom’s, I think I saw you on their website a while back, right? They’re supporters, how did you get all of these relationships?
Kirsten: Honestly, it’s pretty amazing. I’m thankful for it to be honest. I stumbled across, like in Austin one day, I had just come back from India, and when I was in India I stopped by to see another social business that was doing walk printing work, to visit one of our partnerships, and at that time that I stopped by they said they were walk printing a test sample of fabric to Tom’s to be considered for shoes, so I took photos of it.
Two days after I got back from India I’m in Austin and I’m in the same room as Blake Makowski, and I said “Hey Blake, my name is Kirsten” and he was vaguely familiar with Raven Lily already, and I said “I just got back from India and I want to show you a picture of something.” And so he got super stoked about it, when he realized I was with Raven Lily and had heard of it, I don’t know what happened but somehow my husband and a long story short, he and his wife invited us over for dinner a week later, so that’s how that happened!
So we just built a relationship, and then they ended up not being able to stay in Austin, they moved back to California, and they’re about to have their first baby, which is pretty exciting.
Andrew: The staff sold the company?
Kirsten: He sold part of the company, he’s still 50% owner.
Andrew: According to here, I’ve got the Wall Street Journal article, the deal values the business at 625 million dollars.
Kirsten: Yeah, pretty crazy.
Andrew: Another do-gooder with the fashion business, 625 million dollars is what the business is worth, he owns half of it still and sold some before. Wow, what about this.
Kirsten: He’s the most successful in this arena, to be honest. I think he’s taken it to another… But it’s a different model then Raven Lily, still a social business, but it’s definitely been one for one, we buy one we give one, but as he’s grown I really support what he’s done. They’re also tried to start having as many shoes as possible made in country for their giving shoes, which is not how they started but I’m really happy to see that.
They’ve also been partnering with lots of artisan groups like this one I mentioned in India, to have exclusive lines of shoes that are fair trade made.
Andrew: The way you manufacture, I imagine, makes it harder for you to keep inventory. First of all, you have to pay up front, because you can’t wait 90 days after I make a sale, right? You have to pay them up front, how big of an issue is that?
Kirsten: Well, it depends on the partnership. That’s probably the biggest challenge that I have been facing with growth. I mean, if you’re going to grow as fast as we did this year, over 100% growth, you’re going to face some cash flow challenges. And the biggest cash flow challenge was that we are committed to our artisans because it’s their livelihood. Some of them require a 15% deposit at the time of the order which can be four months in advance, and then the biggest accounts have 60 day terms.
So that’s a long time sometimes for us to float a large order. Thankfully, we have other accounts that are willing to give us 50% when they place an order. So somehow we’ve been able to . . .
Andrew: What do you mean, they pay you 50% when they buy from you?
Kirsten: Yeah.
Andrew: I see. So they’re retailers who are willing to do that.
Kirsten: Just a couple of our biggest accounts. We talked to, and they’ve been willing to do that which has actually been super helpful enabling us.
Andrew: That’s not normal, right?
Kirsten: Not normal, but if . . .
Andrew: They understand your structure and your mission, and they say, “Okay, the only way we can keep this company afloat is if we understand how it really works. All right. Then what about . . .
Kirsten: Normally most companies don’t operate that way and about 60% of our sales is in the wholesale space, and a lot of it are boutiques, like high end boutiques across the country, almost a couple hundred of them that were in that [inaudible]. And usually we are paid by them at the point of shipment. And the other bigger accounts, you know, they usually have terms.
So for us the most profitable margins are always resale online or the new retail space. I just opened a flagship store here in Austin in April which has been really fun.
Andrew: I keep expecting, as I click around our site, to see things are out of stock because if you wear jewelry on a show or someone talks about it and others go and buy it, you can’t have overnight a whole new shipment of it made and delivered, right? How do you deal with that?
Kirsten: Well, we just got new shipments in, that’s why.
Andrew: So it does happen. Sometimes you just run out and deal with it.
Kirsten: We went out of stock just a week ago, so, yeah, it’s tricky. And so we are trying to push our buyers to pre-order as much as possible, and we can say with all honesty, “If you really want to make sure that you have this product we need you to pre-order because we cannot guarantee that when we launch it will be available again. Because we’re still at that stage where it’s hard to … We don’t have the cash flow to order those huge quantities to predict what might be popular.
So a lot of it is still that game of testing products, but one thing that we are confident in we order and try to keep in stock that we sell and we get large quantities of it.
Andrew: Is there any way to knowing what shoes will do better than . . . Excuse me. You know what made me think of that? I was reading a book by the guy who’s the Wolf of Wall Street.
Kirsten: Uh-huh.
Andrew: And when he was working for, what was it, Madden Shoes. They had to figure out which shoes were going to sell better so that they don’t end up with excess inventory that they then have to mark down. And that ruins their brand, and they did have a way of knowing which ones. There was a set kind of shoe that was going to always do well, and then there was a fashion shoot that could take a big pop or not, and those they were willing to risk going out of stock for.
Anyways, that whole discussion of how they figured out what to buy a lot for inventory and which they had to be more conservative on. It was so interesting. What’s your process for knowing what’s going to be hot and what you should . . .
Kirsten: It’s a big question, you know. We had a big discussion about it today, so I think we’re starting to get it. We’re still pretty young, but we feel much more confident. And so the groups we’ve been working for a while we know how popular they are, so we know what to order and how often to order.
The newer groups that we launched, there are 13 partnerships right now. We launch [inaudible] more in the spring. We actually start with test orders just to confirm that the women can deliver on time. Sometimes we only sell in our store online until we can understand the interest in the product as well as the scalability and quality upon delivery from our partnerships.
So kind of the store has been great. I’m testing so many products in the store right now that you won’t find anywhere else, but I can understand the interest of customers and get feedback in person. And then we’re going to start testing some things that have been doing well in the store online, and if it does well online then we’re going to see if we can make it become something wholesale.
So that’s part of the philosophy right now, but a lot of . . .
Andrew: You do test markets kind of like restaurants who have multiple chains will take the one that they own and test the different product in there and see if people are interested. I see.
Kirsten: [inaudible] right now, and part of it is see how some . . . We do paper, recycled paper products and bags through this. The base design does not change, just the graphics each season. And those are some of the things we sell in giant quantities. So we feel pretty confident about those products that we can just can really scale those and order a lot of them because they’re very popular.
Andrew: How about this for a challenge? And I don’t mean to load up on the challenges towards the end of the interview, but I do want people to see that it’s not as easy as, “I got this great idea, and there are great people who can make it, and, terrific, everything works out.” Another issue is Customs. You had your work, your goods, held up at Customs in Pakistan.
Kirsten: Oh, goodness. This go around. We launched all of our apparel, and it was the first time for several of our groups, including the Pakistan one, to ship something to this scale. Our Indian group that we’ve shipped so many times, for no reason, it’s just the right of the FDA to pull some things sometimes, they pulled our shipment to search. Five-day holdup, that we weren’t counting on. We didn’t do anything wrong. The Indian side didn’t do anything wrong. That can just happen sometimes.
The Pakistan one, they decided to use a different shipping method than they had on our samples, but didn’t tell us. They shipped it through a group that when we called we were connected to somebody that was in Pakistan and only spoke their language. We didn’t even know how to communicate with them. It was mass chaos to get our shipment, and we didn’t know what was happening. It was held up weeks.
Andrew: You had a launch party coming up.
Kirsten: Yes. We got the products an hour before our launch party, so it that down-to-the-wire. It was two weeks delayed, but I had a team member that pulled a couple all-nighters on the phone trying to track our shipments. We actually had some shipments from Kenya that did not arrive, and so we don’t have the products. They got lost in the mail, which is unheard of.
Andrew: You’re smiling as you do this. Do you freak out when this happens? Do you get stressed?
Kirsten: Yes.
Andrew: How do you deal with the stress? We all have that kind of stress. We don’t deal with it the way you are, by smiling through it. How do you do it?
Kirsten: I, every day, as much as possible, pack up and I leave at 3:00 to go pick up my kids from school. My husband’s the one who takes them every day, and I’m the one who picks them up. From 3:00 to 6:00, I am with my kids. Then I have to work again, usually, at night. I think it helps to be able to “just turn it off,” sometimes, and to focus on things that really matter to me. It’s a choice not to bring it into that family space. My kids bring me a lot of joy, and my husband’s my best friend. I think my relationship with my family is so strong it keeps me sane.
And I have a great team. My Director of Operations is fantastic, and she’s been through it all with me. When we get really stressed we try to all take a pause and step back, and have perspective on it and do the best decision we can. Honestly, if this was just a fashion company I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. The stress is not worth it. The women are my constant inspiration. Their lives are changing and it’s totally inspiring. I’m so honored to be able to be a part of their story.
Andrew: The mission carries you through.
Kirsten: Absolutely. All of us are in it for the mission. It’s so worthwhile. We’re so proud of the products and the women. Seeing their lives change is an incredible motivator, an ongoing motivator.
Andrew: That, and the children. You told me that in seven minutes, at the top of the hour, I have to stop, and that’s because you’re going to pick up your kids, and I can see the value of that. I actually had a child about four months ago, and when I go home I intentionally leave everything behind. When I’m with him, I’m there with him because we have so little time. Apparently, babies go to sleep at 7:30 p.m. I had no idea. I feel like I should just be there, and it is helpful, it does allow me to relax. I remember interviewing a guy named Rob Rossin who said that, in order to get past the tough times, he had to learn to meditate. The meditation gives him a break from the stress, which allows him to come back more refreshed. I can see how kids do that.
Kirsten: My land is the other thing. I go out to my land and sit in nature, and meditate like that. It’s been very helpful.
Andrew: That’s your land that I saw in the photos, on the site.
Kirsten: We’re moving there next month. We’re kind of crazy. We’re going to move 30 minutes from Austin. We’ll still commute in everyday, but we want to live out there and have a little retreat center to invite other people to come out to. We’re crazy.
Andrew: I can see why that would be relaxing.
Kirsten: It is. It’s beautiful.
Andrew: You were voted Most Likely to Succeed in school. Why? How did they know?
Kirsten: I don’t know, because I remember at the time I thought that was the nerdiest thing to be given the title of. I was embarrassed by that. It was eighth grade, or something. My sister was voted most popular, and then I was voted most likely to succeed. We were so different. I think it’s because I was one of those totally driven personalities. I wanted to be the best at everything that I did. I worked really hard, not because anybody told me I had to. There was no outside pressure, it was completely internal-driven. People must have seen that. I didn’t really know that about me.
Andrew: Were you doing well on tests? Is that what it was?
Kirsten: Yes. Very well.
Andrew: You had no businesses, you aren’t that kind of entrepreneur who was selling jewelry or selling candy. No, it was just that they saw you do so well in school, and it almost came effortless. Was it effortless?
Kirsten: I think it was effortless and I did not know how to not work that hard. I did not know how not to give 200 percent every time I tried something and I wouldn’t rest until I knew. I mean, I remember battling between the guys in my class who would get the highest score on things. It was like, super nerdy but I couldn’t help myself.
Andrew: I see. You get into that kind of competition [??]. She may not be the most popular now, but one day she will be.
Kirsten: [laughs]
Andrew: I want to do just a quick message for where to follow up and then there’s an interesting story so candid and meaningful that we just have to end on that.
But the follow up is this. I’ve done over a thousand interviews, if you want to pick one as a follow up interview to listen to after this, and you like the spirit of this interview we’re talking to an entrepreneur here, who is doing good in the world living the legacy of positivity.
We’ll have another person for you to listen to as a follow up, it’s a guy named Tom [sp] Zachy of Terra Cycle and what he did was, he took things that people ordinarily would throw away, like those juice boxes that kids will take into school, and he turned them into jewelry. Not the kind of jewelry that we’re talking about here. Not this high-end fashion but, the kind of stuff that kids maybe will wear?
Kirsten: [laughs] I don’t know.
Andrew: Tom Zachy is really interesting, his whole thing is up-cycling. Taking things that people will throw away and turn it into things that people would want to buy. He had a pencil case using those old juice packets, and so many others. Really inspiring story, go to Tom Zachy. Just type his name in the search box, is available on every page [??] great follow up to this.
The story I wanted to ask you about with Kenya, has to do with this group of women whom you’ve met. Actually it wasn’t them, it was practiced on them. Genital mutilation, I feel uncomfortable even saying it.
Kirsten: It’s amazing. [??] broadcast earlier from E! Entertainment to witness first hand. It’s a group of Maasai women, in Kenya. Most of the tribes in Kenya have been modernized but the Maasai have nearly intentionally chosen to preserve their culture. You’ve probably seen pictures of them, they are the very colorful beaded jewelry, [?] hats in most the Savannah land in East Africa.
I’ve been working with a group that was [??] non-profit that was looking to expand the traditional bead work that they do so that they could provide income for the women. Traditionally in that community, girls were never educated and the girls all went through FGM, which is female genital mutilation. It’s a part of their entry into womanhood.
What happened was that this non-profit, as they started business and started selling the traditional jewelry and the women started earning income, they started earning respect from the community.
I remember the chief, his name is James, he was educated king back to the community, [??] still dress as a traditional Maasai and will advocate for education for girls and for empowering the women in his community which is amazing. He loved his community so much.
So with his effort and the women starting to earn money around the time we came in, what started happening is that [??] who was actually the woman performing the ceremony as she was educated by James and others about the negative effects of a such a thing on young girls. She said we can no longer do this. And the only reason she could stand up to a community of male chiefs and leaders was because James agreed with her and she had some saying because of the money they were bringing in. And the money was more than helping to provide for the community, and improve their school for the boys. Now they are also welcoming girls, and so things are starting to change.
Long story short, today, and her name was [sp] Nakkai. Nakkai has ended that ceremony, they replaced it with educational courses. The girls still go through several days ceremony but they do really special things and a lot of it is very educational.
Andrew: Instead of mutilation it’s education.
Kirsten: Education. And it’s eradicated, it doesn’t exist in that whole region. 50 percent of the school is girls. For the first generation of girls that go to school no more FGM. And when I showed up, whereas the girls used to be in the background and you would have to talk to the men. The men are in the background and the women are in the forefront.
It’s the craziest transformation and it’s done with the respect the men, Maasai men were wearing beaded jewelry when I was there. It was cracking me up because they love it too. Because they wear lots of jewelry and they are so proud of what’s happening in their community and the influence they are having on surrounding Maasai communities that it has changed the way they view their women.
It’s pretty awesome, they are still very Maasai but those specific names, education and FGM, have been transformed to better.
Andrew: I see that. First of all, I started googling around and I saw pictures of them. And you are right. I had seen them, of course, on television and on articles. Now I see a blog post on your site about the work you’ve done with them.
I got to tell everyone who is out there listening, listening is not going to do any justice to this story. You should just go to raven and lily dot com and, oh! What kind of revenue are you doing? I forgot to ask that.
Kirsten: Well, I believe we’ll be [??] a million this year.
Andrew: A million this year in revenue and it’s a for profit business that helps people do good.
So, the site I was telling everyone is ravenlily.com. And I got to tell you, there was somewhere on here where I saw that you were hiring interns. I don’t know if we have people in the audience that are at that stage in their lives but, where was it? Here we go, interns and volunteers.
The reason I’m going to call this out even though you didn’t ask me to is, I think that working with people who inspire you, who show a way of working that’s unique does something to you. Just like when I went out of my way to volunteer and intern for Dale Carnegie and it shaped the rest of my life.
I think if you can find a way to work for a company like Raven and Lily, or Raven and Lily specifically have a huge impact on you. I see it right here, it’s volunteer and internship opportunities.
Kirsten: Yep. We have ongoing interns that keep on coming and we love it. It’s really a joy to have interns, we have six right now and we love everybody. Three times a year, we do summer, fall and spring interns. We’re always looking for new interns.
Andrew: We’ll keep checking that site. Thank you so much for doing this and congratulations on what you’re building.
Kirsten: Thank you, it was a pleasure.
Andrew: Same here. Thank you all for being a part of it. Bye guys.Sponsored by
