Is Building A Business Too Hard? Maybe You Should Live In A Cave, Like This Guy.

Posted on Jul 22, 2009 - 12:04 PM PST

Details magazine has a story of a guy who decided to live in a cave so he could avoid all the headaches of work and money. If you're intimidated by the effort that Mixergy entrepreneurs put into building their businesses, maybe you considered this kind of simple life for yourself.

I tried dropping out once (though not nearly as drastically) and I can tell you it's pointless. Business is hard -- much harder than the press and success gurus make it out to be -- but if you suck it up, you can do something meaningful with your life.

Have you heard about the "cave man"?

In 2000, Daniel Suelo decided to stop using money. "When I lived with money, I was always lacking," he says. "Money represents lack. Money represents things in the past (debt) and things in the future (credit), but money never represents what is present."

So he lives the simple life in a cave about an hour by foot from the desert town of Moab, Utah.

I considered dropping out. Haven't you?

I actually tried living the simple life for a couple of years. After Bradford & Reed, I got rid of most of my stuff and started living with minimal expenses and distractions. I didn't do it in a cave. I lived in hotels (and hostels) on the West Coast and Europe. Like I said, it was more comfortable than a cave, but it was so simple that I could have done it forever without worrying about money or work or anything.

Entrepreneurship is so risky and tiring that it's tempting to just chuck it all and go live a simple life somewhere. I'm sure you've thought of doing that.

Do you know the problem with "the simple life"?

The simple life has NO IMPACT!

I came out of my simple life and decided to start Mixergy because I didn't want my existence to be about pumping air in and out of my lungs for 90+ years. I wanted to leave a legacy that was worthy of the time I spend on Earth.

In the Details article, Daniel says that he wants to live and die as creatures have done for millions of years.

What's the point of that? If you don't change the world while you're here, then why be here?

Why wake up? Why go through the trouble of surviving, eating, etc? Why do all that just to live?

Want to know an alternative?

The alternative is to SUCK IT UP and MAKE IT COUNT.

I spent years struggling to build Bradford & Reed. I kept worrying that I was a failure because every tech magazine I picked up seemed to have a picture of some pretty boy who built a zillion dollar business overnight. I'm glad I sucked it up and kept going.

The overnight success is PR crap. (See for yourself.) Building a business is hard. And if it's hard, then make it count.

I asked Jimmy Wales about the failure of his first encyclopedia, Nupedia, so you could see that hardship is part of the process. I spent a lot of time talking about the success of his second try, Wikipedia, so you can see how all that hard work can change the world.

What do you think?

I asked Daniel what's the point of his simple life. Turns out he has a blog, so I left my question in the comment of one of his posts.

But I'd like to hear what you think. If you're here on Mixergy, you're working on a big project. Is the pain worth it? Why do you think it's worth it?

catascouts

I honestly believe that going to live in a cave is another way of giving up. Yes, sometimes I also feel like going out in the wild and eat roots and hunt but that's not really what I want.
It's as simple as that: if you ask someone who failed at fulfilling his/her dream (and now lives without hope) what would he/she want more, they will tell you they want their dream to come true! And most of the times that dream isn't necessarily to go and live in a cave with no money and in harmony with nature. That's just a way of dressing up a sad reality!

We want to do something and we gain satisfaction when we succeed! If we have the endurance to go through failures and learn along the way then we're on the right track to fulfill our dreams.

I guess people who go abruptly for simple life at the edge of misery aren't so keen of taking chances.

I love your blog and your interviews. It boosts my confidence and gives me the right mindset for succeeding. Romania, as a former communist country doesn't have such a long history of entrepreneurship so being able to extract knowledge from you West people is a real treat for me.

Cheers!

Natural Pet food

What an interesting story.I like the alternative advice that states "Suck it up and Make it count." In life it easily to be become discouraged and want to give up and everyone goes through that in their life at some point. You have to push through the difficult times.

sid

Hi Andrew, i think this pain that my guys and me are going through is worth it cause there is nothing in this world more valuable then time (time is the only thing that keeps us limited). Money can be made with time but it doesnt work the other way around (not proprtionally anyway).

Prior to starting my company i found myself finishing the tasks assigned to meat my 9-5 in a fraction of the time that was given. This could be viewed as an advantage cause for the rest of the time you can *pretend* to work and coast along, however this doesnt hide the fact that your burning the most precious resource that you have.

I just thought to myself, if im making a 6 digit salary totally budging my butt off and wasting time imagine how much more productive for myself and potentially for others i could be if i used that time properly.

I guess thats what the chain of thought was that began this journey me and my guys are doing. Its hard though we are almost done, but to us using time effectively and not wasting the time we have here is worth the effort (specially if like you say, it lives on as your legacy that can continue to help others)

Simon

Hey Andrew,

I have been reading your blog for a while and for the first time I am disappointed to have done so. You do a great job empowering the entrepreneur and encourage you to continue without defaming those who don't fit into our worldview.

Please focus on the virtues of our community rather than the perceived vices of the rest of the world.

With much respect.

Andrew Warner

Fair request Simon.

Noitworld

I agree with reedhedges, there are plenty of larger entities out there but just because they are larger does not make them better. Our business model was designed so that no matter how small or large we are we provide the same unparalleled service level to everyone. We want to leave a legacy and instill the same virtues and qualities in our children. What a great selection of comments left here by everyone. It was great reading what you all had to say.

Andrew Warner

I've really been enjoying the conversations that the comments are creating.
I'll have to add a community platform soon to allow us to grow these
conversations.

I'm looking forward to hearing how your business grows. Let's keep talking.

jayliew

Hi Andrew,

I recently found your site and love it :) I understand the need entrepreneurs have - the want to change the world and help people (and get rewarded in return). Thank you for taking it upon yourself to serve as a guide entrepreneurs.

A lot of times, as entrepreneurs, we think we are facing a unique but many times it's something that another entrepreneur may have already faced (or even solved!) To that end, I thought I'd pose a question just in case you, or others here may have some ideas of how to go about.

I've decided that I'd like to do something in the mobile apps and SaaS area, but I've trouble trying to figure out what to build - what customers want. To target the business crowd, you'd go around interviewing business owners about their business problems - and try to save them time, money, hassle, etc. However for the non-business consumer .. it would seem like the business rules don't always apply. I'd like to help the consumer, but not all consumer products that are successful doesn't necessarily solve a real problem.

Simply put, I've decided on the area I would like to focus on. The problem is that I don't know what to build - what problem to solve.

Any advice?

Warmest regards,

Jay Liew

Andrew Warner

My best ideas were someone else's ideas first.
All I did is commercialize them.

Look around and see what people are doing
and pick the one that draws you in.

jayliew

Andrew, as a web entrepreneur yourself, .. do you know where I might be able to discover problems of other entrepreneurs trying to build a business on the web? Do you speak to a lot of them?

Much like how you want to help other entrepreneurs, I'm trying to do the same since I'm passionate about it. I came to this decision by narrowing my focus from trying to help: everybody in the world -> just entrepreneurs -> just web entrepreneurs (that's was the idea .. fwiw)

My background is with technology, and over the years I've helped just a handful of non-technical folks who were dabbling on building a biz on the web. There's so much to know/learn, and it may be challenging/scary for them. I figured if I could find out how to remove the friction, lower barrier to entry, even if the solution is education ..

Andrew Warner

Check out Hacker News: news.ycombinator.com
Let me know what you think of it.

jayliew

Hmm .. true. Thanks Andrew.

Andrew Warner

Thanks. Hard to stay in the game, but it's worth it.

oojacoboo

Its worth it because it gives me purpose. Even if I lived in a cave I would have to find a purpose. Even if its trying to discover a new way to improving the lighting in the cave, or a way to wash clothes more efficiently, or start fires faster, or whatever. While that may not seem purposeful, I think you can convince yourself, possibly by convenience, that it is. Your just re-inventing the wheel, so to speak. Its the sheer act of improving the present situation that adds fulfillment to ones life, I just choose to make that improvement more known and for present day and future generations.

Andrew Warner

Right. That's what I'm talking about, a sense of purpose.

quellhorst

There are not many caves in my area of Texas. Plus its so hot and humid its already hard to keep my computer hardware functioning.

Andrew Warner

Then you and I are stuck indoors for now.

TaeFitz

As an entrepreneur this spoke to me because I am constantly struggling with am I doing the right thing or should I stop now and just work at Trader Joe's--everyone there looks happy.

Upstarts are hard. We are asking people to change what they are doing now (go to a new website), accept the change (become a user) and open up their wallets. People don't want to change, they are scared of change and we have to convince them.

Whether that change is good and the business ethical is another topic. One I hope Andrew delves into.

To me this post is for entrepreneurs, not a social criticism. We sometimes need to be reminded "suck it up and make it count" because everyday in some form or fashion someone or something is telling us to drop out. Maybe not to be a cave dweller but to be a cubicle dweller--get a stable job with a career path.

So I hear ya, brotha! Sucking it up and making it count.

Andrew Warner

Right. I have no interest in making a political or economic statement. My
point, as you said, is to say that we need to make our time here mean
something.

RosieBLive

Hi Andrew! RosieBLive here to help you!
Only 2 things to fix in this text:
1. The word Details in the very first line needs to be italicized. All magazine titles and book titles are either italicized or underlined. Underlined is old school, so italicize.
2. Towards the end you said "Turns out his has a blog." Do you mean Turns out he has a blog? You need to change his to he I think.

Feedback Queen is OUT!
Peace,
@rosieblive

Andrew Warner

Thanks Rosie!

reedhedges

Hi Andrew,

I saw this also and found his philosophy interesting. In general I agree with him, money itself is pretty distracting from the real work of living and creating.

Two thoughts I had reading his blog and site that can be responses to your reaction as well.

1. It's not that he's doing *nothing* all day. He still has to work for basic survival, and this is the most fundamental kind of work you can do; growing or gathering food.

2. But that's not all he does. He doesn't just subsist. He writes his blog, he travels and meets people and tries to learn from them, he feels the creative need to do stuff like build a staircase to his cave out of rocks. He lets authors and photographers come and talk to him and publicize his philosophy. So he hasn't *really* dropped out of the more general human "economy" of communication, ideas, creation, society, and yes even business and money (without which he certainly couldn't blog, hitchike, etc.) So he hasn't truly rejected and separated himself from the world of money and business, which are fundamental to human society, I don't know if any human truly can (and stay sane).

tp

Daniel just left his footprint. He shared his vision. He has a brand. He brought a lot of value to many news outlets, blogs, mixergy etc. and lots of readers.(for free of course-unless somebody hooked him up with a sandwich or something) He sounds and looks like he is happy.

It doesn't appear to me like he's much different than any other successful company.

"Money isn't real, George. It doesn't matter. It only seems like it does." - Fred Jung

TheFreeAdviceMan

I read your comment at Suelo's.
Unfortunately both you and Suelo seem to have a somewhat (not nec. exceedingly) limited understanding of what is REALLY GOING ON IN THE WORLD TODAY!
Your comment is similar to President Obama's one at the NAACP the other day (mind you; I seriously helped get the man elected and support him with few reservations). The President made it seem like young, disenfranchised Black American boys and gentlemen can simply get an education if they really want to! Never mind substandard, dangerous housing conditions, overworked and over-stressed-out parents having loud and even sometimes violent domestic disputes, gang members putting pressure to make you feel unsafe if you do not join up, some police officers (often way too stressed-out and forced to enforce poorly devised, counterproductive, often un-Constitutional laws....no wonder its called the CRIMINAL Justice System!!!) abusing the power of their authority, racist stereotypes preventing one from getting ahead in life and so forth! Hell! Maybe Suelo is in the FBI's 'Cheap Frugal Discount Wittness Protection Scheme', if there really is such a thing! Jeepers creepers! What is our world coming to?!? That said: I appreciate honesty and good intentions! Best, The Original New York City Free Advice Man, JP Fenyo, Philosopher of Infinity.

Long time listener

hi.

long time listener, and big fan of mixergy. I think you hit the nail on the head. We are here to make a difference. Living a comfortable life isnt for us entrepreneurs.

cheers to making a difference.

Andrew Warner

Right on. I'll let butterflies float through the air their whole lives. But
I refuse to die without leaving my footprints.

ToddBorst

While I agree with your points Andrew, Daniel's life without money does help strip life down to the essentials. Who knows, maybe someone might be inspired by his story to reflect on their state of materialism. I would not assume that it has no impact. It may merely be a question of magnitude.

Much is given, much is required. I would only consider it a shame if one does not live up to their full potential.

Andrew Warner

Fair enough. You have a solid point and I can't disagree with it.
What I can say is that for me, it's not enough. I need to leave a big mark
on the world. For me, *possibly* touching a *few* lives isn't enough. The
people I admire didn't leave the world a little better than they found it,
they changed it dramatically.

- Ted Turner didn't add 10 more minutes to the nightly news. He went for
wall-to-wall coverage.

- Bill Gates didn't want a computer on "some people's desks." He aimed to
put one on every desk.

- Motely Crue didn't want to just rock the Whiskey A Go Go on Sunset. They
wanted to become huge rock stars. ;-)

I want Mixergy to be home of the ambitious. A place where we can admire
success and learn how to achieve it. All I'm saying is that it's going to
hurt along the way, but we can't get off the path.

reedhedges

I think I have a different idea of ambition and success. I guess I care more about the quality of the product or concept. CNN, Motley Crue and Microsoft may all be huge, but there are plenty of other companies, bands etc. out there that produce better, more thoughtful, more useful products

[yes this is a problematic generalization and in the end, my subjective feeling...]

ToddBorst

Couldn't agree more. I'm all for aiming higher. I think anyone who reads your site regularly already shares a bit of that ambition.

Tom

I have thought a lot of times about living a simplistic life but as you say I also really want to make a positive impact on the world, I hope to combine those 2 things. I have been working on my site for over 4 years and still not achieved massive success. I relate to your story on building Bradford & Reed, sometimes I feel that I have failed because my site has not become a big viral hit, like some of the sites you read about.

btw I love the interviews on this site I've been listening to them for a while now.

Andrew Warner

We're creating a set of myths in the dotcom world. The biggest one is the
myth of the instant, big hit. PR people do it because it creates a good
story, but we entrepreneurs can't let it screw with our understanding of
reality.

Will

"I tried dropping out once (though not nearly as drastically) and I can tell you it’s pointless. Business is hard — much harder than the press and success gurus make it out to be — but if you suck it up, you can do something meaningful with your life."

This comes across as very judgmental and stemming from western-centric values. You could very easily be interpreted as saying, "this man's life is meaningless." Perhaps he should be asked what meaning he finds in life. Additionally, a large chunk of the world's population is buddhist, and they would much more approve of his lifestyle than yours.

I'm glad you've achieved the success you seek. I urge you not to get caught in the trap of believing that American Capitalism is the only approach to life. In fact, some of the happiest people in the world have the fewest things and the least "meaning."

Tim Bourquin

Will,

Many of the commenters on his blog make an excellent point that while he may think he's living free of the "evils" of capitalism, it's that very capitalism that is funding his lifestyle through charity and the freedom to live wherever and however he wants.

It's not "western-centric" as you stated. It's simply common sense.

Don't kid yourself into thinking he's abandoned it all. He gets to live in a cave BECAUSE of capitalism - not in spite of it.

Will

All the points you've made I agree with.

The only point I was trying to make is that the original post's word choice and tone seemed to imply the following: that Western Capitalism is the path to meaning. And that, by extension, in choosing not to chase a "capitalist success" outcome, the man's life is meaningless.

I'm in no way trying to lambaste capitalism. Heck, I live in America. I'm trying to gently remind everyone, (and perhaps this is the wrong forum) that capitalism, money, business success... none of these are the Meaning of Life (tm). Do what makes you happy. And for this guy, it's life in a cave.

Andrew Warner

This is incredibly well-written.

TheFreeAdviceMan

Extreme unethical forms of Capitalism are just as dangerous and harmful as Closed Society State Socialism, phoney Dictatorships of The Proletariat and pseudo-Communism (i.e. attempts at the impossible).

Ethical Capitalism, which includes Social Democracy, is the right way for all humanity!

Andrew Warner

Somehow knocking capitalism is cool again. I guess it's like bellbottoms.
By the way, yesterday I did an interview with Gideon Shalwick about
membership sites. As I did it, I kept wonder what you'd want to know.

Andrew Warner

I see your point. I didn't realize what I said could sound critical.

I don't want to come across as judgmental, but I do think we need to do
something with our lives -- that we should change the world, not just take
food in and out of our stomachs for 90+ years.

Also, I do think Buddhism and business go well together. According to
Fortune Magazine (March 5, 2008) Steve Jobs is both Buddhist and a
businessman who's leaving his mark on the world.

Shaan

I agree with you Andrew. I think we're here because we're ambitious and hungry. And that ambition and hunger stems from an overwhelming need to have a meaningful, significant and impactful life. My current ambitions serve future ambitions. As an entrepreneur, I have the opportunity to take a risk and (hopefully) build a successful business.

But our goals are greater. It's not just about building a business, but like you said "leave a legacy." The only way we will find meaning in our lives is if we leave our footprints on the planet long after we're gone. We can, of course, succumb to the fact that the wind will remove our traces, and simply live and die as millions of other creatures have.

But I prefer to fight against the current. As Mark Twain says, "Whenever you find yourself in the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

TheFreeAdviceMan

The real problem is not Ethical Capitalism but Unethical Capitalism. What real good comes out of exploiting the ignorance and other weaknesses of others to make a so-called profit? (Rhetorical question).

Few people have ever become rich by actually overwhelmingly having improved the world and the immediate lives of those their actions impacted upon the most.

I have tried very hard to make real money, but there really are sinister forces (unethical interest groups and unethical individuals) who both envy and fear what I am able to accomplish were I allowed to gain the means to do so.

It's one thing to sell a painting to a rich person for any price they are willing to pay or to invent something that really does solve problems without creating new ones, and it is another thing to rip less fortunate people off by selling junk, junk food (tainted with addictive poisons) and so forth. The Lemon Dealer who sells a relatively poor working-class family person a car that will cost more than it is worth is nothing but a criminal, just like the people who used Madoff as a front-man! Who knows how much real Remnant Nazis and their offspring have managed to infiltrate and undermine (divide and conquer) relatvely Liberal Democracies (some now merely former Democracies turned into Plutocracies)!

Andrew Warner

Right on.