This startup just replaced the spreadsheet for applicant tracking

+ Add to

It’s been said that the best businesses ideas are just replacements for spreadsheets. Well, that’s what today’s guest figured out after the failure of his first business.

Raj Sheth is the founder of Recruiterbox, applicant tracking software.

I’ll find out how he did it in this interview.

Raj Sheth

Raj Sheth


Raj Sheth is the founder of Recruiterbox, applicant tracking software.


Full Interview Transcript

Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner and joining me is somebody who’s listened to my interviews for years. We’ve been living in the same city for, I don’t know, long, and we didn’t know about it until just before we started recording later today, we’re going to get together for a scotch.

I’m looking forward to getting to know him because boy, his story is so fricking moving. Raj, Seth is a guy who decided he was going to start a company and like many people he failed and shut it down. And still he persisted. I don’t know why he felt that he had to continue with entrepreneurship, but he did.

And it’s a good thing he did because he finally figured out a way to make it work. And what I admire about Raj sets business is that first of all, he noticed that smaller businesses were using email and spreadsheets to keep track of the hiring process. And it’s just a pain in the it’s a pain. And so he created a company that relieved that pain recruiter box, put it all into software that managed the recruiting process in a more organized way.

What I admire is. How like hand-to-hand combat his first sales were, it was like one person at a time. Then Marie methodically from 10 to a hundred, just still very small scale growth, but a little bit faster than bigger than he figured out. You know, what, if we want to go after enterprise, we need to re rethink how we do our sales, how we present our product.

And then he put together a team and went after enterprise. And I have the sense and we’ll find out whether this is true, Roger or not, but I have a sense of Raj maybe burned out. Maybe you got exhausted, definitely needed some rest. Andy, he sold the business and we reconnected, um, through Nathan Latka does YouTube show that I think is off now, but what he was doing was he was bringing a bunch of people together to see if they wanted to buy startups.

And Roger was on there. He is in the market to buy startups. That’s the next part of his, um, his life. And we’re going to talk about, I hope how he makes his buying decisions, like how he ended up buying fly data, um, and what he’s looking to do next. We can do it. Thanks to two phenomenal sponsors. The first will host your website, right?

It’s called HostGator. And I urge you to go sign up for them at host When you need to, uh, host a website. And the second you may be, you may be thinking of all sales is happening online. You’re gonna hear it through Roger’s story that calling, talking to people helps close more and bigger sales.

And I’m going to tell you later when you’re ready to hire a salesperson, go to Roger. Good to have you.

Raj: Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for finally having, yeah,

Andrew: I can’t believe we didn’t do it, but I’m glad we’re doing it today. Um, tell me, you know, that I like to get a sense of revenue. I’m not looking at pride, but I do want to get a sense of how big did the business get

Raj: recruit a box was right under 5 million. Err, when we went.

Andrew: profitable?

Raj: Uh, yes, bootstrap the whole way profitable. Uh, I, I wish we had put more of the profit in the Medina pocket, but we just kept plowing it back into the business.

Andrew: that a good idea to just keep reinvesting in the business and see it grow?

Raj: Yeah. I’m half kidding because, uh, at some point we felt that it was always going to keep growing and that was, that was absolutely the best idea. But at times when it plateaued, when we had a couple of plateau years and we had still plowed in more of the revenue, that’s when it felt like we should have added more profitably.

Andrew: I know what you mean. I look back on my life and there are times when I did that too. Should I should have just taken the money out. I was really the place where I was running out of ideas and I was just shoving it out too much. I should’ve just taken some money out, put it in the stock market or just put it on the side and seen what happened.

But for the most part, I don’t know that I could predict the market. And I don’t know that I could predict when things will work and when they don’t. And so I guess I’m happier that I invested in life instead of, uh, not. Um, were you, was that a good characteristic where you exhausted at the end?

Raj: Yeah. You’re not wrong because I was, uh, it was the year 12. Uh, if I have to combine, you know, the failed companies, which are four and a half, five the first five years, and then recruit a box for seven years, we had bootstrapped it and essentially trying different things. And sometimes things not going as fast exhaust you more than the momentum.

And, uh, we, we kind of felt that we should have, we wanted to be at a different point than where we were, but we did feel that we had all the lessons, um, at the time. And, uh, you know, w we, we basically were holding certain cards and now we have just learned how to play poker better. So, yeah. Exhausted, exhausted.

Andrew: I know what you mean about the exhaustion of not seeing results, not having momentum of when things are just, it reminds me a lot of when, when there’s a bill then collapsed and they send in the dogs to sniff around for humans. If they don’t find humans at the end of the day, they don’t want the dog to feel disappointed.

They will actually get one of their own to go hide in the rubble so that the dog could discover a person and end on an up note because it’s, it’s helpful and healthy for all of us to see progress, to feel like our efforts meaningful.

Raj: Yeah. Wow. I didn’t know that actually did that with the dogs.

Andrew: Yeah.

Raj: Yeah.

Andrew: You know what, the idea, this business wasn’t yours, Raj. Right? You had ideas before. What was the idea that you had just before recruiter box?

Raj: Just before the cruder box. Um, if you blue Nile, it was completely different than B2B SAS software. By the way, if you’ve heard of blue Nile in the U S I had a few friends that were in the diamond manufacturing trade, um, back in Asia, in India, in Israel and Hong Kong. And so we were essentially thinking of doing a blue Nile for Asia, and that was the idea that I had immediately before recruiter box.

Um, and, and the idea was that, Hey, we’ll kind of bring these manufacturers directly to the customer. And usually these folks were, you know, storing inventory with the retailers and maybe be able to curate, uh, a great storefront online. Um, I need more than an hour to tell you everything I screwed up there, but yeah, that was the idea.

Before we put a

Andrew: Why did that work? If you could just sum up a little bit of why it didn’t work, what’s the big picture.

Raj: I think, um, I think a few things it’s. When, when you’re doing, when you’re doing a product like jewelry, you, you CA you can’t have just 15, 20, 25 SKU is you need the breadth. You need the breadth for people to have the right selection. And the second thing that we were doing is we weren’t doing accessible, affordable stuff.

We were doing expensive stuff, and this was between 2006 and 2009. And, uh, I would argue even now, but folks were not used to making a certain level of expensive purchase online. So I would say those two are the highest or the bits like that. A lot of things that I personally screwed up too, but those are the highest sort of bits, why this Was not going to fly, even if we had plugged in the other holes.

And even if we had, um, the range and had raised money and all those things.

Andrew: Was the supply willing to work with you with a website?

Raj: Uh, a limited number of suppliers were, yes, we probably had 10 to 12, but probably needed 200 or 300.

Andrew: I’m trying to understand what or how you were thinking before you found recruiter box. So you had that idea. You also had the Craigslist for India idea, right? That I’m just not seeing a commonality. And I’m also not understanding the Raj who was searching. What, what your process was. You’re such an organized thinker from what I can see, what was the unifying thought process?

Raj: So actually that’s a great question. I’ll, I’ll tell you why. Honestly, I was choosing those things first and then, then we can examine, did I get more organized over time or what, what happened there? But you know, to be honest with you, I, um, I was a business major in undergrad and I like a lot of us, I was just fascinated with the internet.

Right. So, so if I had to articulate. Uh, you know, now a lot of us, um, you know, I, I love different parts of software. Now. I really do like designing self-serve, you know, product flows and, uh, designing great products, understanding problems, all of that. But back then, to be honest, my fascination was with the internet, not with technology because I was like, wow, here on one domain, I can have my own stadium and I can fill it with people.

I can fill it with an audience who have all come in there to watch my game, to watch my concert. And to be very honest with you, that was my, that was my fantasy. That is why I chased, uh, you know, all the B2C companies, um,

Andrew: For the attention that with B to C, when you’re going business to consumer, there is a sense that your mom might know what it is. You might go into a bar and have a drink with someone. They say I was on your site. That is an exciting experience. And so you were just looking for, where can I get mass? Where could people notice me?

But then again, when we’re talking about diamonds, that’s not mass. That’s not huge, but I guess maybe within a certain community,

Raj: But, but, but you’re exactly right. That’s why the Craigslist they’ll find them because I taught that, Hey, that applies to everybody and anybody that wants to buy and sell anything,

Andrew: why didn’t you feel? I ask this all the time. When someone goes through challenges, why do they stick with it? Why did you stick with it? Why didn’t you say entrepreneurship is not for me? I think I’m done.

Raj: you know, interestingly. Um, so too, I kind of figured out two things, right? Like I love the adventure. Um, so even when I was able to strip away all the, okay, you know, I was choosing the vanity metric here, or, you know, I was chasing this net. I think I love the adventure. Um, and I see this with a lot of my loved ones.

They’re like, you know, we, we want the certainty, like, what are you talking about? Like what you do that will give us a lot of anxiety. And what I try to tell people is if I w if I was in a very structured role, you know, W2 payroll, I’m getting, like, I know exactly what I’m going to do for the next four years.

I’m getting a paycheck every two weeks that would give me anxiety. It will give me anxiety because then I, everything is known. There’s nothing unknown. And.

Andrew: Is it that you want to figure out the next thing or is it the, I have, for me, it’s a, it’s a salesman like possibility where I remember reading books about sales in college, and it was always this ability to make your own future, to work harder, make more money type of thing that at least I could go to sleep if I was a failure thinking, but if I do something right, look at how big I can go.

And then your mind can drift off into that. That’s what.

Raj: The way I put it as I’m playing for possibilities, not probabilities.

Andrew: Yeah,

Raj: Are you, you see, which Is asinine. I know sometimes.

Andrew: it asinine? What did you allow your mind to do that? As you’re walking through day-to-day life go. Oh, but this could be so big. Everyone could like it. Yeah, you did. That’s where it

Raj: yeah, yeah. was.

constantly, that’s what, that’s the fuel that, that’s what kept me going. I was like, oh, I know I screwed up here and now I can do this and this will happen, et cetera. So absolutely.

Andrew: I have friends who, especially here in San Francisco, I love how big they think. I love how they’re just saying this is the future that tell you what the future is. This is what we’re doing. They’ll tell it to you with such confidence. They’ll tell you all the people who’ve backed them. And truthfully, I’ve seen some of them say this declare the future is whatever, then it fails and they’re still happy go lucky.

And then they do it again. And I think, are you fricking mental patient who doesn’t recognize that this is happening? Or are you snowing me and everyone else, or do you truly believe in it? And I, I guess in my good moments, I think they must really believe it. It seems to me from the look on your face, you really believed each next one was going to do it.

There was no part of you that, that said those other ones didn’t succeed. I better not say too much about this one.

Raj: Yeah, it’s just the next one. The next one.

that keeps you going, even to be honest, even when we were exhausted with the recruiter box, I was like, I was like, ah, now I know how to do these 96 teams. Now I’m going to just, I’m not going to have a flat. Uh, you know, a revenue product that doesn’t have an upsell next time I’m going to have employee based pricing.

I’m going to have natural upsells. You know, that story, the narrative, the fantasy is always going. Now. It becomes like you put it now it’s become a lot more organized from like, it’s, it’s become less of, it was 80% fantasy, 20%, you know, real touching, feeling things. Now it’s the fantasy is coming down. And finally, sometimes when the fantasy comes down, you, you just mentioned your friends that think very big.

I have to be very honest with you. And I used to feel super weird saying this sometime ago, I find myself not thinking too big, actually. You know, there’s, there’s a reason why I’m even buying these companies, right? Like I’m just thinking, um, more measured. I’m thinking what I enjoy more and what I like to fill my days with not necessarily always super aligned with thinking about the biggest thing.

Um, but anyway, sorry, that’s a different tangent, but Yeah.

no, absolutely. Uh, You know,

Andrew: You know, the, the best entrepreneurs that I’ve seen are the ones that I shouldn’t say best or not, but I do see this class of entrepreneurs, like the founders of proof. This little widget that tells you who was bought, who bought on a Shopify store a little before you, they have a good combination of very practical.

This is going to do well. And in addition of, you know, what, I see a bigger, better thing than this. We’re not just making the widget, we’re changing, shopping that they’re still very focused on the today, but I think in some cases they have to be trained by Silicon valley to think about right now, if you could go bigger, what would that be?

Tell me that I don’t want to hear about the widget. I want to hear about how all shopping could be customized. You know what I

Raj: Exactly. Exactly.

Andrew: do you have that in you, do you still, do you still now look and say, I think this makes sense really? And here’s the world that we’re, we’re going to shape with this.

Raj: Yeah. So, um, it is, but finally, while I’m struggling with right now, and I’ll give you an example, when you try to buy a company and you’re constantly thinking about what do you think this can be? Um, you will behave like a bill builder and not a tweaker, which is completely awesome and fine. I’m just, I’m just trying to find my identity between a builder and a tweaker.

It’s always been a builder.

Andrew: uh, builders from new building something, a tweaker is I could get another 5% this month with this tweak to the landing page. If we go after enterprise, we can 20% growth. That’s where you’re, you’re wrestling with that.

Raj: Yeah, tweakers, for example, private equity and Microsoft, which just exactly what you said. They may not know. Hey, I’m changing the world of shopping through this. What they are thinking about is, Hey, how do I unlock these three things to go from 2 million to 5 million? This can be in happy alignment with each other sometimes though.

Um, to answer your question, truthfully, sometimes though, I feel like in some situations too much of the science has crept in and I’m sometimes not thinking about, Hey, Uh,

and I’m just being candid. Like I, I would love to say that I’m always thinking what I’m changing the world for this. And sometimes I’m when I get into the weeds, I lose that.

Andrew: All right. That’s one of the things that I miss about having poker in this city, that you could go to poker with someone and sit around and as they’re talking, you do get worked up about what they’re doing. Um, all right. You then decided I’m not, well, what I’m getting at is recruiter box was not your idea.

It was brought to you by your co-founders. How did you know them?

Raj: We met through common friends, actually, uh, who was, um, uh, you know, common friend of ours, et cetera, was also doing a startup of his own. And we kind of met and they had, you know, tinkered with of course, you know, this latest product and a couple of products. They both were engineers, right. One was a product front-end guide, amazing product design.

And the other one was a backend engineer. Um, but they hadn’t gotten this product really out there. Right? Like, uh, these were folks that could sit in a room and come up with brilliant things. Brilliant hypothesis. Put it out there. Um, but when we kind of met, we felt that, you know, if you work together, we’ll launch this thing and it could be huge.

And, uh, what was amazing about that relationship is to be honest, that was the biggest Delta I had in the previous two things. Um, because this was finally a well-rounded founding team. Uh, and, and, and, you know, like you could literally take that to the bank, right? Like scientifically that, that worked. So I’m a big, you know, when YC says you definitely need a co-founder et cetera, big plus one to that, like, I’m a big believer in that.

Andrew: How did they know about this? Would they doing recruiting?

Raj: No, they went on doing

Andrew: know this problem

Raj: we um, essentially it started out with that, Hey, you know, they were in jobs and they were looking for a job and they’re like, is there a better way than, you know, indeed and Google, et cetera. And then the question became, what’s the origination point of a job inside of a company.

And that was like, oh, it ought to be where you collect the applications and APS, finally, back then, we didn’t really know what an ATS was, or we didn’t even know that there

Andrew: know what it is. What is an ATS?

Raj: an applicant tracking software. So.

Andrew: What did they exist at the time as a category?

Raj: They did, if you, if you look that tally or success factors, they were enterprise HR recruiting products that we’ll call ATSs the entire like conferences, just for ideas for the over the last 20 years or whatever.

And if you remember job white was like the big valley company. Okay. And then greenhouse came along. I’m sure you may have heard of greenhouse and

Andrew: them and then workable where I started to see it is where my friends would link out to their jaw open jobs that they need help filling. And then you would see it in the URL or see it on, on the, on the footer or something.

Raj: Yeah. So the, so greenhouse level workable, what competitors, what was really fun about us was you probably didn’t see us see us much in the valley, but we were discovered completely on Google. So we had a, a restaurant in Phoenix, a church in Texas, a high school in New York using our software.

Andrew: do they even know what to look for? I heard that that was one of the steps.

Raj: they used to put in things like online free recruiting software, online, free recruiting CRM, online

Andrew: even necessarily know the name for it. They just said, I need recruiting software, something that organizes this, and then they thought to look it up.

Raj: Exactly.

Andrew: Okay. So they came up with your co-founders, came up with the idea. They had a sense that you would be a good fit. You immediately sign an agreement.

You’re all working together.

Raj: Yeah. The, the first day that I met them, we just talked for two or three hours. Like we just, it was, it was just like one of those things where we just hit it off, like crazy. And I think exactly one or two weeks from then we sort of came together and, um, kind of form the formal structure.

Andrew: Look at this. I found an old photo of them on medium. I don’t know who posted this, but look at that.

Raj: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: them from

Raj: Yeah.

Andrew: like in their

Raj: That’s awesome. Yeah, exactly. That’s 10 plus years ago.

Andrew: And they’re all. Um, this is a ThinkPad that still has, uh, a CD rom drive in it that they rock. Okay. So you decide you’re going to work together.

You’re going to do this. They go off and they can, they build a software, right? I guess they were close to finishing. Meanwhile, what are you doing

Raj: Uh, outbound SEO content.

Andrew: from the beginning before the software was launched? You, you did all of that.

Raj: So we, we had a super launch was a soft word for us because for example, we just had the candidate section. We didn’t have the opening section, but we had people already paying for it. We had about seven people lit we didn’t even have Stripe set up.

Andrew: Tell me how you got the first customers you, this was hand to hand combat is how I called it. I don’t like the name combat, but it was, it was one at a time. Uh, what is it? Call it. Retail investor, retail sales, essentially. You basically doing one at a time. How did you do it?

Raj: So, so we I’ll tell you how we got our first offline customer. First online, the first offline customer was like a local, you know, uh, retail place, um, that essentially, you know, told us. W we were kind of interviewing people, small businesses, Hey, how do you collect applications? And they said that, Hey, this is a huge pain.

Can you do this? We’re using Salesforce. Can you do that? And then when we build the first section of the product, that was the first paying customer and fast forward two or three months from them, when we essentially put that product on Google apps, marketplace, and Chrome web store back then, even though it wasn’t, this wasn’t a Chrome plugin or anything, but it was sort of discovered there.

And we literally didn’t even have Stripe billing, but we had screenshots and people started discovering it there and they started essentially using it. And after the 14 day trial, we, we literally used to send them a PayPal link. Um,

Andrew: The Chrome app store was a thing. I think it’s gone now. It essentially just linked out to websites. It was supposed to be their version of apps that didn’t work out. It seems like plugins are the apps for Chrome. So, so that got you customers because you were one of the first people to put it on there and you didn’t have some of the hesitations that other people did about, well, this is not really an app.

It doesn’t really make sense. You just said let’s put it in and see what happens.

Raj: I didn’t even know the difference to be very honest. So like, we were just trying all of these things like trying and, uh, uh, and, and basically what we also trying to do. It’s funny, like, uh, there is a thing called Hato. You may have heard of it. Helper reporter. Well, I used to like, found that like crazy and you won’t believe it in like the fourth or fifth month.

And I don’t know if you saw my, I put a whole, uh, set of links of all the press we got for recruiter box over the years and MSNBC, the ch the, the TV channel and a show on it, picked up recruiter box, and we had a 20, 32nd segment on TV. I don’t even know how it happened. Obviously we didn’t pay for it. We didn’t even know it was happening.

Andrew: They just picked it up because you were doing so much, a little press that they did. They talk to you.

Raj: No,

Andrew: They just did

Raj: no. In fact, the only way we found out is, uh, there are these services that try to sell you your own clips. If your brand or company has come on on TV, they’ll try to sell you the YouTube. This was back at them like talking 10 years ago. And somebody sent it.

to me like, Hey, hundred bucks, do you want this?

And I’m like, yeah, whoa.

Andrew: Um, I’m guessing you just went to YouTube to find it, but I would pay a hundred bucks for that. Yeah,

Raj: Yeah. no, we, we did pay at the time. So yes. And then.

Andrew: You told our producer, you personally wanted to demo for every single customer, meaning 700 people got on some kind of screen-share with you.

Raj: Absolutely. Uh, and again, back then, uh, and I don’t want to make it sound so dated, but like the first couple of years, I think it was more Skype, not zoom. The zoom was out, but anyway, um, see our flow was that a lot of people came to a site signed up, uh, and the onboarding, my co-founder designed the onboarding in such a brilliant way that.

They took those four screens and four actions on the forced login. There was a 60% chance that they would, uh, put in their credit card and pay that because the conversion, if you went through that onboarding on the first login, um, we just, since we were like bootstrapped and, you know, we, we were so eager to grow.

We wanted to have handholding, even though back then, we didn’t, we kind of. Folk the funnel too much, at least in the first two years we were like, we just want to make sure we talk to everybody. So we make sure they use it, they set it up. Right. And they convert. Right. Uh, and so they, these were bought outright sales calls and sales demos, and they were part onboarding to be honest.

And they will lay out or 700 calls of those. And as, by the way, as a product got more and more feature rich, they became sales calls because we slack, we started attracting slightly mid-market companies and we realized that, oh, they don’t try anything. Self-serve, it’s a beauty contexts contest. So they are going to like compare these three products and then choose one based on their list.

So there were at least like half of those in the 700 cards.

Andrew: Right. Speaking of sales, let me talk about my first sponsor. It’s a company called overpass. Roger, the way it works, it overpasses this. They realize that there are a lot of people who are either hesitant about going out and looking for salespeople. They don’t know where to begin, or maybe they are not sure if sales fits, maybe they listen to a podcast like this one, they hear your story.

And they say, you know, I think we could use somebody. What do you do? How do you hire someone? And then if it doesn’t work out, how do you let them go? Well, what overpass decided to do was create a marketplace where anyone who needs sales, like maybe for some of your new businesses, you say, let’s try sales one morning and you want to do it with them.

This is a good place to do it. Overpass created a marketplace where you get to see who are these people, maybe the feel you’re going for is a stay-at-home mom or stay-at-home dad who has that like certain schedule that they have a certain sound in their voice. They’re more maternal, more maternal. You could hire them through there.

Maybe you’re looking for someone who does good sales via email, right? Who can open it up, maybe someone who’s great on the phone. You look for those people who have that experience who have that strength, and then you could hire them and then to manage them since they’re working remotely, right. They’re working from home, they’re working from a different country in some cases.

What you do is you use the overpass software to know how much email are they sending out? What are the calls? What are they doing? When are they online? What are the results? And to be able to pay them. So it’s a low price. Many of them don’t even want a big salary. Of course, what they want is commission.

How do you manage it? All overpass has a software for it. So what you could do with overpasses, basically sign up and get started with sales person. That’s right for you quickly and grow and hire more if you need to. So it’s a great place to experiment and greatest place to grow. I’m going to give everybody, including you, Raj, a 10% discount.

If you use my URL, if you actually go, or in fact, even if you don’t use my URL, say Andrew sent me, they’ll take care of you. Here. It is. Go to And it got an awesome from Raj. Maybe it now embedded itself in your brain. It’s going to come out and change your world.

We’ll do an interview in a few years about how you

Raj: Nice. Awesome. I’ll check it out.

Andrew: to your site because he would, they were going, what was the second place? It was Chrome, uh, app store.

Raj: Right. At the very beginning, there was funnily, they had to, it was Google apps, marketplace, and Chrome web store. They were two. I don’t know if you remember back then there were two different things.

Andrew: the apps marketplace? Is that within G suite or whatever, they’re

Raj: Yeah. Within G suite, there was a whole like business productivity apps with the categories,

Andrew: to work within their, their suite of software, right? No,

Raj: to be honest, not back then. It’s what you said, because I don’t remember us having a G suite, uh, integration in your one and we were listed and it would, uh, basically you could just link out to your website. That’s how it was.

Andrew: Okay. And so anyone who came in, did you initially know four screens and then I want to do a demo or did you start doing demos as soon as they signed up?

Raj: Uh, the force creams thing was a very early win, um, because, okay, so the demo flow was two. Some people didn’t sign up and do the four screens. They went to the demo button directly. So we had that available on the front side. So, so those were one, but for the sign up, the four screens was a very early on when, because we were focused from day zero, that this is not going to be sales led.

This is going to be product led. This is going to be self serve. So that I think that focus from day one helped us a little bit. Now in hindsight, like the many other things that we may have fudged and we learned along the way, but that focus was, um, and, and subsequently what ended up happening on the onboarding really was the reason why.

A hundred K to 300 K the next year to a million. The next day we

Andrew: you mean? What did you learn? What happened on those calls that allowed you to do it?

Raj: what happened on the onboarding that allowed us to do it?

Andrew: It was, oh, it was the, the web onboarding that was getting so good that it helped convert more and more.

Raj: exactly.

Andrew: did w and S I’m sensing that what you’re saying is because you made those phone calls, because you did those Skype demos, you understood what would work for people and what didn’t and you kept.

Raj: Absolutely that too. In fact, that happened the entire six, seven years, the onboarding beyond the onboarding who we were selling to, we didn’t even think about ICP C. The one funny thing is the assignment. I mean, ideal customer profile. The one funny thing that happened is because the funnel was happening to us because we had put it in so many places and we had different kind of customers.

We, at some point didn’t really know who we were selling to. Right. And you, you, you, you know, one may say, who cares you, you, you guys are doing So, well, tripling revenue. It’s all coming in. We are at the million. And then at 2 million, we hit some bottlenecks because we realized that a certain kind of a segment is going to show.

Now they’re going to have seasonal hiring. They’re going to keep churning, you know, very quickly. And then all the product feedback that we’re taking from these long tail of folks, who is it for? Like, if you listen to, you know, one person business, they are like, oh, give me, give me distribution to 80 job boards.

Whereas if you are listening to somebody who has a structured hiring process and is going to pay you for four years, they’re going to say, give me better interview evaluation forms, and a way for everybody to add feedback. So it’s very important in hindsight. Now it’s very important to who you’re taking the feedback from, but yeah, to answer your question, those calls absolutely helped.


Andrew: how did you integrate it all when you were talking to so many different types of people and you were creating still one product?

Raj: We, we woke up, um, to this a little more seriously when we felt that we wouldn’t grow as fast as we should after a million. And then we did a segment exercise saying that, Hey, you know, we used to be, you know, uh, we used to be a product for businesses that use email and Excel to hire today. but now essentially we are a product for people that want to run a structured hiring process and involve the hiring managers, not just the recruiting team, but also the hiring managers.

Andrew: came later on. When you, when you said we’re not growing, what do we need to do? Where the gems within this whole pile of customers, right? First, first, 10 customers, once you had them, you said, if we could get these two, then we could get more. You can do more of the same, basically in those app marketplaces, then doing a Skype calls with people.

You got to a hundred, a hundred, you said to our producer was a big customer milestone. Why is a hundred such a big milestone for you?

Raj: The the hundred was a big milestone. The first hundred were harder, uh, were very hard and we didn’t know where they were going to come from from a hundred to a thousand. It was all SEO, all SEO. And to be very honest with you, if I, if I did, I, we tried a lot of these other things in ads, but if I’d just gone to sleep from hundred to a thousand, it was coming in like a, like interest from a fixed deposit bank account, like, boom, boom, boom, boom.


Andrew: Search engine optimization just happened to work for you. You didn’t put the effort into it.

Raj: No, no, no. We put the effort in while we were also getting to a hundred in the first two years, we put a lot of, a lot of effort in SEO, but I’m seeing once we became the second organic key result on like three or four of our main phrases, uh, which took two years, the effort took two years. The next three years, we, we just reap the rewards of that SEO, to be very honest, there were probably 30,000 sites, uh, visits to the main site, 3% sign up.

So that was a thousand a month And 10% of that to paying 90 and a hundred, you could see a line going out like 24 months or so, like, uh, you know, basically.

Andrew: saying you were trying other things, but basically none of them mattered. This is the thing that did it. What are some of the other things that you were trying that didn’t move the needle enough.

Raj: The big thing was ads. Um, so they moved incrementally, but the SEO overshadowed, all of this other stuff. Uh, so we would get like 90 from SEO And 10 from ads, maybe. Uh, so, so we had Google ad words and Capterra, and get that back in the day. I know now there’s G2. And, um, then we also, we basically still did a lot of the, the hat or the content blogging, the webinars, which was all okay.

Andrew: led by you not necessarily you doing everything at the time, right? You started hiring writers. Okay.

Raj: Yeah. The first, I would say the first two years I was heavy, heavy lifting as a contributor, a lot, the other two years, uh, there were a lot of, uh, you know, contractors, freelancers agencies, and the last two years, I would say, as we had, like, we had a proper in-house team and owners.

Andrew: So 2013, you launch 2014, you hit a million dollar mark in revenue.

Raj: 2020, sorry. 2012. was the first full year of operation.

Andrew: So 2013 was when things were starting to grow, um, got it. 2014, you hit a million dollars, 2015, you doubled to 2 million in revenue. And then you told our producer that’s when we got stuck. That’s when we started to realize seasonal hiring.

So you’d lose customers for that. You’d see. Churn in general was the churn because people are finding other software or just because they would sign up for one thing and move on.

Raj: No, they, for example, we had an ice plowing service And he was the longest customer, but he always came back, uh, used it for three months a year, and then we had a hibernates, um, button. Right? So, so, so you pay, even if you’re paying $99 a month, you pay for three months, your ACV is only $300 and they were not paying us again.

And it was obvious.

Andrew: so they could save their settings. And then when it’s ready for them to go back in, got it. And meanwhile, in that period, you’re not making any money from them. You, you try, you try, you look around for everything. And then at some point you realize enterprise, how do you, how do you understand enterprise?

Raj: So, uh, so I would, I would say mid-market by the way, not, not enterprise?

because now we understand like how big that leap is. But the, the mid market is, uh, these were people that the cat had already dragged in, right? Like now we had like a thousand, 1500 customer paying customer data. And then we had companies that had truly loved our product and picked us or the competition.

They were not the seasonal hiring folks. These were scaling companies. Um, and we also had, you know, a few here in the bay area, these are scaling companies. And what we understood about them is a, they have a structured hiring process and they have a budget. To solve this problem, whatever that may be $10,000 a year or whatever.

And, and so we were like, we’re going to focus on these folks, like all our, our front side positioning our product, our onboarding, our pricing is going to be positioned towards these folks. Now, now, now mind you, we were not super successful at that though. I should also add that, um, right, because we had some success with it, but we found the positioning pivot really difficult.

If I have to be honest with you, which ultimately led to the acquisition, uh, we, we still kept getting those, the inbound, uh, Johnny funnel that kept being the small money.

Andrew: It that it worked. Maybe I misunderstood. I had the sense that, um, and I’m going to the internet archive to see what the, how the site evolved. But it seemed to me that at some point you’d figured out that you need to talk to your customers the way you did in the beginning to close the bigger sales, because they were on it to hear your voice and that you also needed to increase price because they had a bigger budget and sometimes having too low a price reduces their confidence in you.

And is that what it was, or it was, these are improvements, but they didn’t revolution,

Raj: No, not so you’re precisely right. And it did work. I’m just saying it didn’t work to the extent that we Gallop to 10 million in revenue. That’s what I mean. Uh, and, and this is again, the conundrum of expectations versus, so it did work in fact, uh, in fact, uh, after the private equity fund bought that and I’ll, I’ll come back on the timescale bought us day.

What they did is they turned off the self. So fun. They made it an all outbounds non-urban they made it all completely SDR. Qualification, let’s talk to an, a annual contract completely. They committed to that completely. Um, I don’t have the numbers now to tell you where it is now. Like I’ve obviously not gone back and asked them, but, uh, to, to get back to your point, it did work for us a lot.

We just still felt like we had one foot here and one foot dead. Um, and it was a slow movement. And even the perception in the customer’s mind like was, and the kind of questions that they had, you know, back we, we had like a huge, we closed our average price point. For example, our annual plan used to be 5,000 a year.

Like we were stupid and the product had gotten so much better. And then I remember that we sold a 60,000 a year. We had a customer and that whole customer had different concerns. Like, are you SOC two compliant? Do you have all of that stuff? Needed us to start running down. And that was not a DNA, by the way, we were building these selves of products, like think things.

Zapier or constant contact, or, you know, think, uh, uh, you know, because our whole original thesis was that it’s Okay.

We, we even gave the hibernation button because we were like, we are the most customer friendly, 99 bucks a month, but guess what? We’re going to get a hundred thousand people to pay us. And, and, and, and then I woke up, I’m like, you’re not accounting. People don’t need to do, uh, you know, recruiting doesn’t work like accounting or payroll.

People are always going to keep paying for QuickBooks. They might always keep paying for Gusto, the payroll software, but clearly we were not in that bucket. And then we saw other people position the value very differently. And like greenhouse comes along and says data driven, recruiting, data, driven, recruiting.

I mean, I don’t think the product. Had like, you know, pigeons flying out of the browser. It was, but the, the marketing and positioning, like greenhouses of brilliant, you know, sales and marketing story, because they got all the VCs to pitch greenhouse to their portfolio companies. And all of a sudden you’re like, everybody’s on greenhouse and Hey, greenhouse is good enough for Uber.

It’s good enough for us at door dash and, and that’s, that’s how it works so that we, we, we, we learned all of this painfully.

Andrew: Um, I’m looking at the recruiter box site. Now not only is get demo. The only like get started button, but even if I go to pricing, I see the three different buckets, but where I should see the price, I see a form that says schedule a phone call so I can see how they’ve shifted completely. Um, I want to find out why you sold the first.

I’ll talk about my second sponsor is HostGator. Raj, let me ask you this. If you were starting right now, you had nothing but a HostGator account. You could build whatever website you want on it. What site would you build? Let’s use that for the ads.

Raj: What site?

Andrew: Yeah, you got to start from, you have nothing. You want to start from scratch. How would you get started

Raj: Um, so you mean just to build a landing page or website?

Andrew: a new business? What new business would you start that didn’t require a lot of development costs? It’s just, let’s say WordPress, just simple open source software to get yourself going again.

Raj: I would, I would, uh, I would come up with, uh, a slack game for remote teams to play and born once a week.

Andrew: Ooh. You know what, anything that allows remote teams to have some kind of bonding I think has got huge, huge potential, um, slack game is a good one. I’ve really liked the companies that also we’ll do. We’ll set you up with things like cooking remotely or wine tasting remotely or something remotely.

I feel like there are more and more opportunities. I like that idea a lot. I would even say people could start simpler than that. Like, what’s an interesting thing that already exists. That’s working for people that you can do remotely for them. All right. Oh, you know what I mean? Some kind of game remote might work where you’re sitting down and you’re playing a game together and you’re all right.

Tons of ideas, listen to people, whether it’s that idea or anything else, if you want to get started and you need a website, go to, they’ve got loads of open source platforms that you can use. I happen to hit that button and get started with WordPress, with them. Once you do it just works and it’s portable.

If you don’t like them, you could take them somewhere else, but I’d love them for years. They’ve scaled with me and they’ll scale with YouTube. Here’s a great URL where they, where they will give you the lowest price possible. All you have to do is go to I’m also cautious with the ads.

I just realized. I said the lowest price possible. Maybe it’s possible to get a lower ad. I should say their lowest price as far as I know. And tell me if I’m getting it wrong. All right. Um, why did you, when did you realize, I think it’s time for me to sell.

Raj: So, you know, a couple of things were going on here while we were, um, you know, working on, I don’t think pivot is the right word, but while we were like trying to solve for growth, let’s say simply, um, for a while now. Um, and, and this is maybe why we also never raised funds by the way, for a while now we thought that the applicant tracking software or this recruiting software was not the big thing that was going to change anything in recruiting and funnily here’s where we connect the dots with what you were saying at the beginning of the call, which is what what’s that one thing.

What’s that one thing that you guys were thinking about when you talked to your friends that this is going to change the world and that’s really the fuel, right? Like when you were making revenue, now you’re already making money. That was really the fuel. And so. To be very honest with you. We couldn’t help ourselves, but we went about finding that thing in R and D.

So I’m just, we haven’t, I’m not, we’ve not, we’ve shared this with whenever it comes up, but not really openly. So our third co-founder the guy who designed the onboarding floor build off for the last 18 months, probably two years before the acquisition and stopped working on recruiter box. And he was trying to find that thing.

And the two of us were running recruiter box. Right?

Andrew: was that thing? What did, what are some of the ideas that he had for what that thing could be?

Raj: So the hypothesis was that, Hey, when we look for jobs, we can’t really glean inside of A company like water does like the work that what kind of work people have done there. And similarly, LinkedIn is probably not the best way for, you to see my wins, my work samples, you know, firsthand. Um, and now that I even say that I can’t describe a form factor to you, but that, that problem or that pain seem pretty evident.

And I’m sure, like, even now, like we used angel list and a list and a lot of other things too, where, you know, we find people, your sponsor, for example, for the sales thing, et cetera. But we were hoping if there was an easy habit forming ubiquitous way for companies to put out the great work that they do.

Uh, and that’s what he was putting out like that.

Andrew: way for, for companies to keep showing here’s, what’s great about us. The way that like 37 signals was blogging constantly about their retreats, their thing, so that when they are ready to hire, there’s a group of people who say, I like that ethos. I want to work there and you don’t necessarily have a form factor for how that would be communicated, but that’s what you were working on.

And that would change the future of hiring and work and got it. And you were looking that way. All right. That makes sense.

Raj: And create an inbound funnel of the Right, fit candidates, basically.

Andrew: right, right, right. right. And that is, that makes a lot of sense. And that’s a type of thing that the top companies have that when they are finally looking, you know what, I wouldn’t even say the top companies, I would say the top people have it, that they’re showing the work that they do when they’re ready to hire, people are excited to go work for them.

And it changes the conversation. All right. So that didn’t work out. You didn’t have that big, higher purpose. What you had instead was a machine that was working and it was incrementally going to keep going. And you said this is too much. Did you take vacations in that period?

Raj: Not before the acquisition. So

Andrew: Wow.

Raj: not before. No. because you know that, that whole PC, if I have to be super candid and I’m sure like we’ve of course, you know, we’ve talked internally. Uh, but it was that, that last year was a very stressful one for me. Funnily, like again, now, if you connect the dots with you saying that, Hey, why, why w why would we do this right.

The entrepreneurship, but that, aside like that, your was because we were like, you know, once we know what we are choosing, then you can get a lot of energy behind you. But because we were like, Hey, is this other thing going to work? If that’s not happening, we were like, so now do we get realigned and really excited about this?

And then how do we figure that out? And I think you summarized it exhaustion, right? Like we went. Sort of private equity offers on the table. We kind of just felt that it was simpler. Um, I definitely Did that. Hey, this is probably simpler to take our chips off the table, you, know, put some money in our pocket.

We hadn’t really raised, uh, any external capital, so it’s not like we had like investors or board or anything. It was just us.

Andrew: Did you, um, did they approach you?

Raj: Finally, they had approached us in 24 14. Um, uh, and it, it was funny because back then they were a startup to now. Now they’re a pretty big funnier. We’ve also seen them grow up, um, 200 of a capital. So, uh, they approached us when they were like two people and we, with the first time they approached us, we were like 600 Kane.

And they were like, oh, you know, w w are you guys are just starting selling? We’re like buying smaller companies. And we were like, no, it’s too. Like, everything was going great in the SEO thing. And we were growing and that was probably the right call. Anyway, we got to learn, you know, past a million, et cetera.

But, but, uh, and then what they always kept in touch. So I was pretty good friends with my point person that I kind of had a coffee with him every quarter. So to be very honest with you, uh, when it finally went down in the end, I don’t, I don’t even know who approached who, because we were meeting, I went to his wedding too in bookie.


Andrew: This is a really good example of how to maintain a relationship so that when it’s time to close the deal, you could do it. You didn’t even consider other people. It seems like

Raj: we, we, we had, uh, uh, we had, uh, we had a quick process, not process. We had a quick. Flirting with couple other funds. Exactly. Two other funds, but we had the most comfort and context with this one.

Andrew: what was the exit,

Raj: Uh, what was the price?

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Raj: It was, it was under 10.

Andrew: Under 10, all caps. No, no need to work out anything. And then is it too personal? Say, what did you do with the money? Did you invest in real estate? Did you invest in startups

Raj: No. So,

Andrew: P

Raj: yeah, so like all three of us, one of the money we made, it’s not like we had money earlier. So, uh, I think all three of us bought our first home. Um, and again, uh, these two co-founders they’re in India by the way. And I bought that home in Austin. Okay. Uh, and, And broadly though, everything’s gone into equity zero you’re right.

Like it’s just public equities because now I’m out here again, taking. Oh, you know, 100% risk with my time. Uh, so I, and, and it, and to be very candid, it’s not enough money for me to be this angel investor and do like 500 investments or whatever. So, and I know that with the nut job that I am in VR, like, we may need that money for like the next seven to 10 years of bills anyway.

And the next thing might not do anything and failed.

Andrew: And you’re not going to raise money at all, even though you’re in the Capitol of raising money. You’ve got experience.

Raj: So, you know, funnily, if this model of buying companies and maybe we’ll, I’m sure we’ll talk more about this, even on meat, uh,

Andrew: Yeah. Let’s talk about it now, too, to the extent that you feel comfortable.

Raj: Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. So, uh, I think, um, I am more excited about raising money for the holding company to buy the companies, not to not put a lot of money behind an idea to scale. And I’m open to that if that’s the bottom line, but if you’re running efficient businesses and they are in defined categories, then absolutely.

I think there’s a case to be made, to raise money, to buy revenue And, buy companies. Absolutely.

Andrew: and so you’re at a stage where you want to buy, why not create you mastered the process of understanding the customer of doing endless calls, of being sensitive to what they’re, what they need. And no, but you’re shaking your head. As I say, you don’t want to do that. Why?

Raj: No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just saying, I think, um, the simple reason is that it takes, if you, unless you’re going to raise a lot of money for something super specific, early on, it takes three and a half years, three, three, and a half years to break that first million in revenue and hit product market fit.

If you build, there are some things that we would like to build, but we would definitely, we want to master this art of scaling From one to 10. I think that’s

Andrew: million to 10 million

Raj: to 10 million.

That’s what we enjoy the most. And excuse me, I don’t mean we’ll sell it at 10, but I’m just saying that we have to master the art of one to 10, which is still the incomplete dream.

If you think about it.

Andrew: Hm, or you feel like you didn’t get to 10 million before this might be your time to do it? Ah, wow. Okay. And so what is it about fly data that made you want to make them the first acquisition?

Raj: So, uh, uh, a combination of things, um, this business had super, super low churn. And coming from that recruiter box lens, I was like, damn, like I just kept going on and on and on looking at all the, you know, logos in the, in the Stripe report. I’m like, these guys are paying wait two years, three years, four years, five years.

Like there was a very low chance and the revenue was only half a million, by the way. So it was a half a million revenue company. And this was a win-win situation where the founder previously had raised, $9 million created, you know, hired a whole team, uh, you know, had to, I think two or three products, flight data was one of them.

And now the money had gone and the team had gone and the other products had gone. And what was left. What was left was this core product at half a million super-low Chan. And I was like, this is the best way to learn about this. And, and, uh, he wanted to go do something else, get, get a VP of an CTO job, uh, at a virtual gaming company.

And he will be very happy doing this. And this was kind of a news around his neck, so to speak. So we bought,

Andrew: he raised money for it. It wasn’t going to hit his at it and wasn’t going to hit a venture valuation. And so he wanted to move

Raj: so he had raised 9 million for flight data many years ago. And

Andrew: data? Yeah. Okay. So it seems like what happened was, tell me if I’m misunderstanding, he raised money. It had to go huge. It didn’t go huge. So now he was just stuck with stuck with this thing. That was a lifestyle business, but he didn’t have lifestyle, business ownership. He wanted to get out. You were looking for something, you, you bought it from his investors

Raj: exactly.

Andrew: him.

Got it. All right. And so I see the churn made sense. Did you understand the customers? Are they people that you feel more like that you could relate to more?

Raj: No, and that kicked my ass and that has been kicking my ass to be very honest. Now I understand them a lot more, but these are engineers. And, uh, even though I, I, even though I am surrounded with 99% engineers and pro recruiter box was a engineering product, heavy company engineering product force company, same thing now, by the way that the, uh, the, um, uh, the engineers that I’m working with are all ex recruiter box.

So there’s a lot of comfort in the team. Uh, but it’s not the same as selling to engineers. That’s been my big lesson of the last one year because, uh, they, they kinda, you know, have their tribes and, and, um, sort of their beliefs. And, uh, we’re just trying to navigate our way through that right now. Hey, I lost you.

Andrew: What were you, what were you able to do to help them grow? What’s your thing that, that you’ve added to the business.

Raj: I think the biggest thing is this, the product had stopped developing all the data’s. It took my SQL Postgres databases and replicated to Amazon red shift. And what we have done is, and this is where your question is very pertinent, to be honest, that why don’t you build, why don’t you just build from scratch?

Because we’ve ended up building large parts of the product from scratch because now we wanted to replicate the snowflake and we also want Mongo DB. So there’s no breadth of connectors and this is a connector heavy, uh, problem. Right.

So, so that’s the number one thing that we’ve done to grow. We actually just launched us snowflake connector.

So we’ve moved everybody to the new platform. We’ve done a lot of SEO work. So if you put in my SQL direction, we are the first result, even though. With big companies like Pfizer Tran and stitch, and he would data

Andrew: What you do is you take data from one type of database and you make it available to Amazon Redshift in that database. That’s it. And what you’re saying by connectors is more places for you to grab the data. So you could send it over to Amazon Redshift

Raj: that’s right. And this all has to be maintained as a real time sync because the companies that use us have large volumes of data, think about like a FinTech site or, you know, social app.

Andrew: why do they have two different types of databases?

Raj: no. Like one business may have only one database, but I’m just saying like different customers will have a different database. So we need those breadth of connectors because somebody might

Andrew: why do they need connect? Why do w um, I don’t, I guess I don’t understand the technology.

Raj: no, no, no, no, no.

Andrew: they’re using my SQL, they need Amazon Redshift.

Raj: No, no perfect question. I got two questions. So a transactional database, if you run a query on it, it will take you nine hours.

Let’s say if it’s a trillion rows are taking nine hours. So what happened is when you know, funnily now all data is big data, but there’s this whole word had come up. Big data, big data. What people mean is like, you can no longer compute data on a transaction database because it goes through the whole thing.

I’m just like explaining it in simple terms. But then what happened is when, when you had AWS and all these things, Amazon had come up with something called Redshift, which is essentially an analytical database. And what that means is it stores your data in such a way that when you run a query on Redshift, it takes nine seconds, not nine hours.

And so what you do is you take all your transactional database, all your Salesforce data, all your SAS application data, and you quickly on top of Redshift. Or snowflake these days, all Google big query or, you know, VMware plumber, whatever, or the Microsoft one, they all have a data warehouse and you query on top.

So all your BI, your visualization, all of that sits on top of your data warehouse.

Andrew: Uh, okay. All right. That makes sense. And I understand also then why you’d have such low churn. I understand why this business makes sense. And now you’re looking for more businesses like this. I’m assuming it’s B2B SAS. You want the ongoing revenue. So you could, you could start making predictions on it and something that has tremendous stickiness,

Raj: Absolutely.

Andrew: but it needs to hit a million needs to be somewhere around a million in revenue and ideally have the potential to get to 10 million

Raj: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And yes.

Andrew: and B2B. So I’m actually thinking I started using the software for podcasting transistor, It’s so good. That’s not the type of thing you’re looking for. Right? You’re not looking for these smaller businesses that are on podcasts software.

Raj: Yeah.

So, so debate if that’s B2B or not, when we of debate this internally with the team, we have tried to just boil this down to characteristics. Like, what are the characteristics of a product? What? So, because we are matching us trends to it, right? Like, so, so we, we could say that you could say that, no, what business do you have doing podcasting software?

But my question would be is the customer acquisition channel all SEO, because then I understand that right phone. So, and then you’d be like, what business do you have this? And, but, you know, it’s essentially. W we kind of build products, right? Like it’s not like this. Um, now this funnily fly data is a little bit of a departure from recruiter box and all the other products offers because here you need to get into database and server as well as there you could.

You’re, you’re kind of writing, you know, workflow software. Um, but, but Yeah.

no, we’re just, I think revenue characteristics is so crucial because each story is super unique and I’m still learning. Like, I think we’ll do two or three and then have a much, much deeper pieces. Um, but I don’t think we’re prepared to say that we’re only doing data pipeline companies or analytics companies.

We’ll do B2B SAS. Our, I want to suddenly go And do a marketplace company. Uh, that, that, that would be silly. I think of me. I think B2B SAS is any like self serve sales or sales driven software product sold to SMB or mid-market.

Andrew: And Raj, the nice thing about, uh, B2B today is you can have that recognition that you were looking for when you were getting started, that we do now know and admire, at least in our world entrepreneurs who are doing B2B businesses, right.

Raj: Yeah.

Andrew: They’re, they’re becoming more celebrities. They’re becoming more cared about in a deeper way than someone who’s just creating a.

I dunno. Uh, I keep thinking of all the people who are creating online greeting card companies when I was getting started and we were known by a bunch of people, but there wasn’t a deep meaning in there. Now there is. All right. So for people want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to find out who you are and where you are.

Raj: So email is great. You know, or, D E C H L a That’s that’s the holding company, or you can just find me on LinkedIn. If you, you know, uh, plug-in Raj shape flighted or rod shape, uh, um, recruiter box

Andrew: All right. All Raj, thanks so much for doing this interview and I want to thank the two sponsors who made this interview happen. The first, if you need a website, go to The second, when you’re ready to hire salespeople, go to Rochester. I’ll see you later today,

Raj: will do.

Who should we feature on Mixergy? Let us know who you think would make a great interviewee.