Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. For sure. Audience of entrepreneurs. One of my past guests, Ryan Hoover, it was Ryan Hoover who introduced us. Right. Dylan
Andrew: frequent. As soon as he says, Andrew, do you want to meet someone?
I basically have to look for a way to say yes, because this guy comes across such interesting people. If he ever see someone who’s especially interesting, I got to meet the person. So he emails me and he says, Andrew, I think you’ll want to interview the founder of mine bloom. So I look into what is mine, bloom.
And then I look into how, how quickly can I be a customer of mine, bloom? here’s what it is. It’s, I’m actually just going to read the second half of the, uh, description it’s at home clinician prescribed psychedelic therapies. I wouldn’t have thought Dylan, that this is a thing. Or did I, it’s a thing that I would care about, but somehow it’s gotten into conversations here around dinner, or how people over for drinks and they’re doing psychedelics and it’s become more common.
There’s one, couple where the husband is so freaking straight laced. I couldn’t believe that he’d feel comfortable even talking about it. He was guiding his wife through a psychedelic, I guess it’s called a journey. My right.
Dylan: Can we call it journey, session, experience.
Andrew: She came out of a feeling so great. It helped them then conceive and it helped her become happier as a person. So this is what, this is the type of thing that’s now going on, that people are talking about. It’s not just happening on podcast somewhere. It’s not just happening on TV or in a news article.
It’s it’s happening if you bring it up in conversations. So I tried to help someone else have a similar experience. So fricking pain in the butt. How do you even go buy this stuff? Why do you have to know a guy who knows a guy? Why do you have to count on them? Writing on the baggy, what the prescription is and what the amount is and all that, but that’s what you have to do.
And then you have to read a book to understand how to do this, or find someone who’s done it before. Who’s willing to guide you for a few hours a day. Anyway, in walks, Dylan buying and into my life. He created mine bloom, and the whole thing is just like change the whole experience. Apparently what happens is you go to mind Bloom’s website if you’re in what?
Dylan: Uh, we’re currently in about 14 states reaching half the us population.
Andrew: Okay. So. If you’re in a state that it’s available, you go onto their website, you chat with the person, you get the medicine, you take it with someone, a friend of yours with you, you know what to expect you then have somebody in mind with them to talk to afterwards. It’s just amazing how you’ve packaged this thing.
That seemed like such a taboo topic for so long. And so I wanted to find out about mind bloom, how we built it up, how big the business is. And since this is not his first time, uh, in, in the role of an entrepreneur, I wanted to find out a little bit about the two previous companies that he created. And frankly, either one of those could be whole solid killer interviews on their own.
Uh, the first is called voter’s friend. It was one of the top voting and election platforms for local politics and was acquired by democracy. Um, and then mighty the second one. How do you describe what be.
Dylan: Hmm, uh, mighty is helping plaintiffs get a better deal from the justice system, uh, by building the platform, connecting all of the players, lawyers, doctors, finance companies in the $250 billion personal injury world. So you can think of that as like car accidents, construction accidents, and medical accidents, which a lot of people don’t know is, uh, absolutely massive and completely broken.
Andrew: You’re saying a quarter trillion dollars is passing hands every year or needs to pass ends every year.
Dylan: Yeah. There’s a reason when you turn on the TV, you’re likely to see a Geico state farm or Allstate commercial, how these are liability insurers, the ones who are paying out those $250 billion of settlements. Uh, it’s just an absolutely massive space and completely archaic, totally broken. Um, and when somebody is helping to bring technology and liquidity and transparency to that space and, and really help everybody in it get better outcomes.
Andrew: Okay. All right. This interview is not sponsored and we’ll talk maybe why it’s not sponsored. I actually, I wasn’t sure if my sponsors were okay with us talking about psychedelics instead, I’ll talk later about my other podcast. It’s called bit clout jam. It’s another thing I got super excited about big cloud.
I created the first podcast since Mixergy, um, on that. And I’ll talk about why I’m I’m into that. Dylan. Where’s the revenue in mind, bloom, like how much have you guys produced?
Dylan: Yeah. So we launched fully virtual, uh, psychedelic therapy a little over a year ago. It’s July, 2021 right now. Uh, and have since grown into, uh, one of the largest providers of legal psychedelic therapy in the world. Um, so we’re currently doing eight figures of bookings treating thousands of patients, uh, by the end of the year, we’ll be doing about a hundred thousand psychedelic therapy sessions per year
Andrew: But you’re doing over 10 million already
Dylan: and bookings. Yeah.
Andrew: therapy. Now, when I was on the website, I saw that this is prescribed for depression and anxiety, but I don’t know that I ha I don’t, I’m definitely not depressed. I don’t have anxiety. I just want to have one of these life changing experiences, like, like my friend with her happiness.
And then suddenly she has, she gave birth to a baby. I don’t know that I want to give birth to a baby, but I want to have that kind of transformation. Can I do that?
Dylan: Uh, so you could do that if you flew to Peru. Um, um, yeah, so, so mind bloom is a medical platform. Uh, so we support a network of affiliated psychiatric clinicians and psychedelic guides, essentially mental health and wellbeing coaches who are helping people with indications of anxiety or depressed. That said one thing that might surprise you is a lot of people think that they don’t have anxiety or depression.
Usually anxiety is the one people think that they don’t have a, and when they take an anxiety, screener, such as the GAD seven generalized anxiety disorder, seven a assessment, they find that they have mild to sometimes moderate anxiety. And, and I’m one of those cases. Like, I, I don’t feel stressed. I don’t feel anxious.
I love my work, but I work, you know, 80 to a hundred hours a week. I’m addicted to it. Like I was addicted to video games when I was a kid. And, uh, if you aren’t sleeping well, if you’re tired, irritable often, um, and you know, have sometimes have issues in your relationships or your mood. That’s not healthy and not normal.
Uh, so in mind, bloom, we actually find that our partner clinicians are screening people out for having too severe of symptoms for our at home treatment protocol, then not severe enough. Um, but if you’re just looking to expand your mind and explore your psyche, that’s something that we philosophically are big believers in.
Um, but the medical system is not yet ready for psychotherapy to be completely elective.
Andrew: Do you think you will be at a place where mind bloom does that? Where people say, I just want to expand my mind. I want to have this experience that changes me for the better.
Dylan: Yeah, I think there’s a massive transition right now in all of healthcare, going from old medicine to new meds. All medicine is reactive disease oriented, treat the symptom. Uh, let’s wait until you have diabetes to figure out how to get you insulin or clean up your diet. Uh, and the new medicine is proactive.
It’s fatality oriented. It’s about helping people live their healthiest fullest life before they get sick. So that’s, let’s get you on a great diet and exercise so that you feel awesome and don’t get diabetes. Uh, a lot of areas of healthcare, including mental health care are still going through that transition.
And so right now, um, you know, psychedelic medicine is an example of something that is not yet elective, uh, and you don’t see providers prescribing it unless people have a medical indication. Um, but the eventual end state of all the medicine is going to be personalized. It’s going to be patient or client centric versus sort of the paternal health care system that we’ve had in the past, where you go to a doctor and they tell you everything, and you’re not in control of your care.
And it’s going to be really proactive and helping to provide low risk solutions and treatments that help you become healthy and psychedelics are undoubtedly. One of those, when you look at the clinical research and the client stories,
Andrew: All right. This is a basic question, but I don’t understand the answer to it. What is a psychedelic? What happens when I’m on a psychedelic?
Dylan: so psychedelic technically means mind manifesting. And so there are some discussions about what qualifies as a psychedelic versus a psychoactive, um, but anything that helps create these open expansive qualities of mind that help people achieve neuroplasticity and new insights, generally it’d be qualified as a psychedelic.
Andrew: Give me an exam.
Dylan: so one example would be the classical examples are classical psychedelics are LSD and psilocybin mushrooms. Uh, other ones that are, um, commonly discussed now or Iowa. Which is a brew made of, um, uh, essentially a vine in, uh, in, uh, a branch or vine or like a brute that combines DMT and then MAOI, um, and then the psychedelic that our partner clinician’s prescribing mind bloom is ketamine.
So that’s a dissociative anesthetic when done at low, uh, sub anesthetic doses. So like one fifth to one 20th of what, uh, children get in the hospital every day in the U S today, uh, it has these profound psychedelic effects and creates this neuroplastic state in the mind where people are more readily able to make healthier and new neural pathways and connections, which will show up as new behavior and emotional
Andrew: What’s the experience when I take it, what do I see? What happens? What do I experience?
Dylan: Ooh, this is that the question about describing the indescribable experience?
Andrew: Hi, is that what it is? An indescribable experience?
Dylan: Uh, can be quite yeah. Ineffable. And if football is a hallmark of psychedelic experiences, um, and oftentimes we tell clients, and this is sort of common advice to be careful about trying to describe your experience, because it can be hard to put into words. It can cheapen it. And for some people they don’t really understand it and can look sort of, um, confused and that can diminish it, but I can still describe it for you.
Andrew: Yeah, go for it.
Dylan: Yeah. Um, I think there are, there are, uh, three buckets to put up. A ketamine therapy experience. And assuming it’s a, you know, a moderate therapeutic dose that gets someone into a deep therapeutic state, uh, one or the emotional effects. And so for a lot of people, uh, they will experience this heightened, emotional state.
Uh, it could feel pleasant and euphoric. It could feel warm and, and enveloping. Um, but for a lot of people who have a ruminative thought disorder, like anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, uh, social anxiety disorder, eating disorders, uh, they can get into this emotional state that they haven’t felt in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years.
Um, and so right off the bat, they’re able to now engage with, uh, things that are going on in their life or changes. They want make an a in a healthy way than they were in previous. The second bucket are the cognitive effects. Um, so for people they can often have, um, this profound sense of insight that can come up.
It can be, uh, or memories that come up. It can be, um, new sort of, uh, you know, viewpoints or perspectives. Um, and it can simultaneously feel, uh, because of what’s called transient hypofrontality or essentially the dimming of the prefrontal cortex. Uh, like somebody is simultaneously a little slow with processing power, but incredibly creative.
So it can sort of temporarily damp in linear thinking and massively widened lateral thinking or creativity. Um, and oftentimes a lot of those insights, especially when done in a therapeutic context where intentions are sad and people are guided and they’re integrating and journey on the experience afterwards, a lot of those insights are very personal for people.
Oftentimes people come in with changes they want to make in their life and discover that those changes were not the right changes. And there’s a much deeper root cause or deeper thing that they should be working on or fixing. Uh, and then the third bucket is sort of the persistent neuroplastic effects.
So their neuroimaging studies seem to indicate that there’s this three to 14 day window after academy therapy experience where people’s brains are literally primed to make new connections more easily. It’s called synaptogenesis like new Synopsys or connections between neurons. Um, as a result of, uh, this thing called brain derived neurotropic factor becoming, um, um, sort of secreted in the brain, this protein.
Um, and so as a result, people are happy about this creative feeling and stay in this uplifted emotional state. Uh, but they’re literally more able to create new connections. And so for a lot of people that can show up as, um, sort of this intense motivation and ability to create new habits and behaviors and to break out of old broken habits and behaviors that are unhealthy.
Dylan: And there’s and there’s visuals and there’s out-of-body experiences. Um, but those are the more ineffable ones. So that’s how I would sort of bucket the three without going into the, uh, sort of hallmark psychedelic effect.
Andrew: I feel like a part from the fact that this is a therapy. It also seems to fulfill the same kind of the same benefit that people used to go to seminars, hoping to get that they’re more likely to get here. This sense of, I need to be a different person. I don’t know what’s going to do it. I heard Tony Robbins is going to do it for me.
I’ll go to a weekend seminar and you come back kind of beefed up, but not really. I feel like that’s what this is. You know what the hardest part with talking to Dylan is I can’t read your face. You’re so like calm and I can’t tell it, am I on the right track with you? Am I going off track? Uh, you’re very comfortable with yourself, but then it means that I can see like where I pushed a button.
It makes you discomfort uncomfortable. All right.
Dylan: Well, I could, I would, I would love to jam on the parallels between, um, you know, call it transformational programs like Tony Robbins I’ve been to for the, just watching Tony is worth. The price of admission is, uh, uh, you know, uh, in a positive way, a freak of a human being, uh, and, but a lot of parallels between transformational programs and, um, you know, transformational medicines like psychedelics.
Um, one is it does create this activation energy to create changes in your life. When people go to Iowasca ceremonies, they often feel, you know, fired up and ready for the first time in a long time, sometimes you know, their whole life to make these big changes. And oftentimes that can actually be a dangerous thing, right?
Your people are often advised and we advise people to hold off for at least a few weeks before quitting your job or divorcing your spouse. You want to make sure things set in before you just, uh, you know, run out and get a tattoo. This is freedom across your chest or something. Um, and Tony Robbins and some of the other transformational programs, uh, I think Tony like equips people with frameworks and blueprints and programs, things in a lot of ways, a master applied psychiatrist or psychologist at least, um, um, that people can actually implement in their life.
Uh, and when doing therapeutic psychedelics, especially with a therapist or a train guide and facilitator a lot will come up for people about what changes, how to make the changes, uh, and you know, people can be supported in their integrations. What’s called practice to actually integrate those experiences into their life and make changes and right.
One area where psychedelics, I think have a leg up on some of those things is exactly what you just harken to, which is people get really fired up and motivational seminars. They might learn a lot, but where’s the follow-through to help people actually take action in their life. Um, we know that behavioral change is hard, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the gold standard for a lot of behavioral change programs like insomnia or weight loss, uh, have, you know, famously low adherence rates to get people to do them.
Andrew: And so what about with psychedelics? And I want to get to the business side of this business. Um, but what about with psychedelics? Does it have ongoing benefits?
Dylan: Well, I think that’s where psychedelics are particularly special is because it’s creating this neuroplastic state where the brains more able to actually create new connections and pathways. Um, people come out of it actually making behavioral changes and like breaking these habits. And that’s why you hear people say, these things changed my life a lot more frequently than I think are at a called a higher success rate.
Then maybe you hear with things like Tony Robbins, where people say it was incredible program, but then I went back to everything I was doing. And I think that’s some of the issues with talk therapy that you see as well.
Andrew: Dylan, I feel like this psychedelics are now having a moment they’re about to, about to break through what led you to say? I think I see a business here. Was there a law that changed? Was there some other acceptance? Was there something else? What was it?
Dylan: Hmm, there, there are a couple driving factors. Um, so after being in my last company for five or six years, um, and it, you know, really getting into orbit, uh, I wanted to step away and specifically do something in mental health care. Uh, I wanted to do something mental health care for two reasons. One is I just grew up in a family.
It was annihilated by mental illness, which I’ve now come to learn
Andrew: What do you mean? What
Dylan: of people. Uh, my mother’s severely, mentally ill. Uh, so growing up, uh, she had schizophrenia addiction, uh, and we were like a working class family trying to figure it out and try to get her help, but we were completely
Andrew: how did her schizophrenia express itself?
Dylan: She’s, I mean, she’s psychotic. So, you know, today she’s one of the half a million homeless people in the us, um, who, you know, thinks that she, you know, is, uh, it’s very sad and tragic and
Andrew: And then how did you experience it? Was there a memory that you hold onto that is emblematic of what you went to.
Dylan: Hm. Uh, so we had a really turbulent home. I was raised by, uh, essentially a single father and a half sister who also has her own, um, you know, mental health care issues. And, um, we, it was, you know, like there’s like having a very, very horrifying, scary, violent person in the house at all times. Um, so I, I, I took like an approach of just completely shutting her.
And I just got like laser focused on school and sports and getting out. Uh, and my, and my sister got Lamar wrapped up into it, which I think had some second order consequences. Um, when I was about 16, we, it was, it became too much and we had to get her out of the house. And that was sort of the end of that,
Andrew: Okay. And so you felt I have to do something in, in mental health care, right?
Dylan: No, it was, it was two things. It was one that I’ve been interested in the mind and mental health care for a long time. Um, you know, had a profound effect on me. And I got really lucky that I was able to, um, you know, deal with that home situation. Like I did. I had a very happy childhood with a very loving father.
Uh, but too, as I started learning more about it, just because of my intellectual curiosity, I started seeing that, and this was a massive, massive problem. And, you know, essentially it’s the number one public health care crisis pre COVID and COVID-19 exacerbated it. Um, as I built these other companies over the past 10 years, psychedelic medicine has been utterly transformational for me.
And, you know, helped me early on come to see that from, you know, growing up with, uh, very mentally ill and violent mother. I had built up a lot of shells and how I related to others in the world. And, um, and DMA, for instance, like, you know, 12 plus years ago completely transformed my life and set me off on this path
Andrew: One session of MDN, M D N a right.
Dylan: uh, I mean, catalyze the journey.
So I think, I think it’s actually an issue. A lot of people go in these experiences thinking they’re going to take them like they are a traditional medication, or you’re going to like take it, it’s going to create this change. Um, but it’s more of a catalyst for change to help people, you know, get into a state where they can work on themselves, understand what to work on themselves and create the conditions for making these changes.
So for me, it fundamentally helped transform how I relate to others in the way. Like, I didn’t like people, I didn’t like people. I met them, um, and was, you know, had a very negative and pessimistic outlook on humanity and others.
Andrew: This is even after mighty or before mighty
Dylan: there’s like 13 years ago. So this was, yeah, this was a lot. This was long before mighty.
Andrew: long before it got it. So you’re taking these that you’re taking MTMA, you’re taking what else and you’re seeing your life change.
Dylan: Yeah. I’ve wanted to see broader acceptance and access for psychedelic therapies to help people heal, grow, transform, and become better people for themselves and others. My entire adult life.
Andrew: Okay. So then you go into voters friend, you then go into mighty. These are, these are much more PR not practical. They’re a little bit more mainstream. I think a VC 10 years ago would have seen both opportunities and understood it that
Dylan: I would say local local politics in like 2012 is not very mainstream. A lot of people said, ah, that’s not a business. I don’t vote. I don’t believe in voting. I think our political system is broken. Uh, I would say it was potentially even like five years ahead of its time. If we get started that.
Andrew: model for?
Dylan: Oh, that’s, that’s the best question.
I, we, we start, we started the company in like the social local mobile, um, you know, craze when everybody was launching a consumer app and we would figure out revenue later. Uh, and we had a couple of big issues. We, we create these incredible mass traps to acquire local political candidates and voters, um, things I’m really, I’m actually really proud of.
And we built this really great product. So like, one thing we would do is, um, you know, we built this system of scrapers with this offshore team, um, in China that would scrape every single local board of election website so that we could figure out first who was on people’s ballots, which nobody had ever done before.
So if you wanted to see who is on your ballot, it was impossible at the time. Like you would get outdated information. Uh, you have a lot of gaps in. And so that allowed us to create the first platform that had, if you entered your zip code, every single candidate that you could potentially vote for, then we pre-populated that, uh, with data that we scraped and then send it out to a BPO team of about 10 people I had in India, who would take all that information, Parsi clean it, put it into our content management system.
So that from day one, if you logged in, you would get like an 80% complete view of all this candidate data. And then the third step is to get candidates, to sign up and actually claim those profiles. Um, so what we realized was that, um, people who run for politics are generally, uh, pretty, uh, what’s the word mega maniacal they’re very into themselves.
That’s why they’re running for political candidacy, especially at the local level, it would probably, especially on all levels. And so we realized that there was, uh, the most likely the only person Googling a local politician was that local politician.
Dylan: So we ran search ads aimed at you as a local politician that you would see when you Googled yourself.
Um, and then built a platform such that when you came on, you would see, uh, usually your entire candidates pro program and profile all the way built out because we had built it out and that would motivate you to sign up and claim yours and make sure that you can upload a nice picture. Cause your opponent had a picture.
Andrew: Got it. So you’re saying we’re going to help voters understand who they can, who’s going to be on their ballot. And then by first scraping data, then by having them communicate on the platform, you know, update their profile and create this almost public square or virtual debate so that we could really understand that was the vision for it.
Dylan: Yeah, we’re going to help make you an informed voter in 10 minutes, because you’re going to enter your zip code. And you’re going to see all of this information about all your candidates, fill out who you’re going to vote for a sample ballot, get election reminders, connect with the candidates and for local candidates, we’re going to give you the first platform.
That’s not just yard signs. And like you said, local town halls to actually connect with real engaged voters in your area. They’re actually going to drive your results. We did it all the way up to the state level and the national level, but the local level is where we’re facing the, you know, local political candidates had no other platform for,
Andrew: I’m on, I’m on the site from 2013. I could see that one sentence become an informed voter in 10 minutes, just like you
Dylan: now that
Andrew: Okay. So that maybe was more of a quixotic vision, but still I can understand how that makes sense. We’re looking at a social network for voters that includes the people that they care about locally and maybe a place where they could vent.
And I get it mighty is much more of a, maybe we can say that’s more of a, of an investible business. The thing that I’m wondering is did you say I’m going to focus on more, more like more bankable ideas first, and then later in life, I’ll come back in circles, circle back onto this issue that I have. Mental health.
Dylan: so I went to.
Dylan: I went to Wharton undergrad, and I graduated in 2010. And at the time everybody I knew was going to investment banking. I entered investment banking like 2008, right. About the time of the financial crash, which was definitely a blessing, not a curse because I already didn’t know if I wanted to go into banking and that made it really clear to me.
Um, and then from there I started kicking around in technology. Um, I just spent one year working in entertainment in LA before that. Um, and so all of the companies I’ve had have just been sort of opportunity meeting. No meaning at the right time. So I had met my co-founder voter’s friend. He had just started the platform.
It was an issue that I had already faced myself and thought here’s an opportunity to leverage their net, to democratize access for both candidates and politicians. Um, similarly I met my co-founder at mighty and he had sold a, uh, online education platform that was venture backed and then had started a litigation finance company that he’d been running for a couple of years.
Um, and I was just fascinated with the asset class and how, uh, you have this incredible financial instrument that a lot of people don’t know about. That’s really nascent, uh, that some of the people in the space or, um, you know, had charging really high rates because there’s just so much inefficiency in the space.
And as I started working with him, we started seeing just how deep the rabbit hole wins in this $250 billion personal injury world. And so we partnered up to try to build a better space there.
Andrew: So there were companies that were offering loans. If I got hit by a car and maybe I had a dash cam that showed that it was not my fault and I was going to win, my insurance company was going to drag their heels. There were companies I could go to and get upfront payments so that I can go to my doctor and pay them and pay for lawyer.
Is that right?
Dylan: Yeah, the way to think about it is if I rear-end, you let’s say you have a hundred thousand dollar lawsuit on that day, police reports filed, you have a a hundred thousand dollars case. Well, you’re going to actually going to start giving away pieces of that case to a lot of people. So you’re going to call up a personal injury attorney and give away 35% of your case for them to see the case through.
And it goes to the court that person’s actually gonna give it away to somebody else. And they’re going to split that. Uh, you’re going to go see a chiropractor, an MRI center, maybe an orthopedic surgeon. And they’re going to treat you for free for now with a lien against the case, with the mock-up. And you’re gonna give away pieces of the case for the medical treatment.
Um, and then. Historically you’d have a monopsony or like one buyer of the claim that’s Geico state, farm or Allstate. And so you’re just hoping and waiting for them to settle with your lawyer, you know, being, being your advocate. Um, but these companies came along and realized, wow, let’s allow people to sell pieces of those cases so they can both get liquidity to pay for living expenses and also make better decisions about their cases.
Um, so, and those companies then started doing the same thing for the lawyers, for the doctors and medical providers. Um, and then there, you know, companies that finance the finance areas too, like, like mighty, um, so mighty is building the sort of connected platform, uh, that provides software and tracking and servicing and financing to all of those parties and sort of becoming the software enabled platform and marketplace for that.
Andrew: To keep track of what they’re owed and whether they’re, whether it’s time to collect.
Andrew: All right. So then coming back now to mind bloom, the opportunity you saw was what you, I could see that you had a personal connection to it, but how did you know this was the time to build it?
Dylan: Yeah, I, I guess I want you to say your mental health care, uh, was exploring a few different things in telemedicine. Um, unfortunately I have some, some close friends from college who have built a big direct to consumer telemedicine platforms like hymns and candid that do like online men’s, um, um, health care and Invisalign.
Uh, and I saw that similarly to how the internet was increasing access to, you know, uh, information for voting elections or finance and software. Like we did a mighty, uh, that there was an opportunity to use technology to increase access to mental health care treats. Uh, I just kept coming back to the thing that I thought where like the future is already here.
It’s just not evenly distributed with psychedelic medicines. The thing that changed my life, uh, the thing where I just saw the trend lines with the clinical research, the clinical trials, you know, uh, sort of influential thought leaders like Michael Paulin and Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan talking about it.
Uh, and then just thought it could potentially be time. Um, Right around the time I started talking to people about how I thought psychedelics were the future, but we’re probably a few years too early because the MD clinical trials are gonna take a few more years. Uh, and I was at lunch with my personalized medicine physician, uh, Dr.
Andrew in New York who helps me do the, you know, top to bottom biohacking thing and helped me optimize my health. Um, and he blew my mind when he told me that there was this cottage industry of ketamine clinics who were helping people get these transformational outcomes. And he’s seen transformational outcomes for his clients with ketamine in his private practice.
Uh, and I was blown away like as somebody who has their finger to the pulse of the psychedelic therapy movement and research, I had no idea that ketamine was something that was being prescribed today in the U S and getting people these awesome results.
Andrew: Okay. Okay.
Dylan: So I became academy patient myself was just as transformational as a lot of other psychedelic therapeutics that I’ve used over the past decade plus, and I saw clear as day that if we could make treatment more approachable, And educate people about it through, uh, consumer brands, uh, make it more affordable.
Uh, because historically it’s been like 800 to $1,200 a session. It’s come down a little over the last couple of years since I started mine bloom. Uh, but that’s still is way more than my family could have paid as we were going through my mother’s mental health care journey, uh, and make it more available to people through telemedicine, uh, that we could, you know, dramatically affect a lot of people’s lives.
Um, so started the company about two years ago, spent the first year recruiting the clinical and operational and legal team and getting in place, you know, the clinical framework to treat people. Um, and you know, about a year ago we launched our fully remote platform and have since gone on to help thousands of people, uh, get clinical outcomes that far exceed what you see with, you know, Lexapro and Prozac and talk therapy and some of the traditional mental healthcare treatment.
Aren’t really working for enough people right now.
Andrew: When you say you wanted to set up the clinical framework, what does that mean?
Dylan: Oh, the hardest thing I’ve ever done as an entrepreneur was recruit a medical director to who’s a leader in psychiatry and psychotherapy. It was, uh, Dr. Casey palace, uh, who was also a, in addition to a baller, a psychiatrist and private practice, uh, you know, an OJI in the psychedelic research space who has been a huge part of the MTMA clinical trials with maps for phase two and phase three.
And, uh, it was part of the early, uh, hallmark psilocybin for cancer, anxiety study and early ketamine for depression studies. Um, so the first, I think the first suicide, we really raised a couple million financing from friends and prior investors and went to work sort of building this framework out. Um, so it started with the legal framework.
Can we do this legally? Um, you know, what are the regulatory risks where the compliance risks, what are the liability risks? Uh, and then it was going to work to recruit the, you know, the clinical team, including this medical director who would be helping to build the protocols, um, you know, put their licensed reputation on the line to, you know, take the work that they’ve done and, you know, further in the world through the platform that we’d be building, um, then recruiting a clinical advisory team of people to help inform all those clinical protocols, uh, an operations team to build out our pilot facility, which allowed us to test at home treatments.
Um, and then building the. The, you know, the team to help build the early technology to allow our providers that we’re recruiting to treat through the platform, providing therapeutic content and programs. Uh, there’s a, there’s a lot of steps here. It’s not just like recruit a therapist and connect them with the patient, you know, through an app, which can be super valuable, like increase liquidity and access to those treatments, um, or some day one of second line therapy.
And so it’s building out everything from legal to clinical, to programs, to protocols, to content for the first time.
Andrew: Was it originally going to be an in-person clinic?
Dylan: Uh, the
Andrew: to be that.
Dylan: yeah, the vision from day one was to build out home therapy. Uh, so Ramadan has envisioned the company. Uh, Trump had signed legislation that was going to create a whole new paradigm and framework for at home prescribing of controlled substances. Um, and so at that moment, I knew that was gonna be a matter of, um, when, not yet.
People will be able to prescribe this remotely. So we started with a pilot facility to test remote treatment. We know that a lot of psychiatrists were doing remote treatments. We’d seen some studies around in clinical studies. Now it comes around remote treatments. Uh, but our clinical team wants to make sure first that it was safe.
The patients want to do it. The prescribers were comfortable with it, and that people would get as good or better clinical outcomes from just in-person treatment. So we launched that power facility for like 60 K in 60 days in Manhattan, uh, and you know, treated several hundred clients with a hybrid in-person remote model.
And then when COVID happened, we just had the opportunity to accelerate our fully digital timeline by, you know, a year or two.
Andrew: Uh, that’s what I was reading. I assumed that it was going to be in person, uh, throughout, you know, you said something that sounded baller. What was that thing? You have a personalized medical, what a person who just makes sure that your, your biohacking is done right.
Dylan: Uh, yeah. Uh, so I think the future of medicine is largely going to be personalized, right? It’s not going to be okay, you have this issue. We’ll just give you this drug, come back and tell us if it works or not for you, uh, it’ll be diving into your biomarkers. So your, your blood, your hormones, your, your, your, essentially your brainwaves and neuro-transmitters, uh, and seeing how, what your health looks like and a way that we can personalize what we do for
Andrew: And so you have somebody who does that with you on a personal one-on-one basis.
Dylan: Yeah, Dr. Andrew Kibera in New York is incredible, highly recommend to any
Andrew: what has he done with you?
Dylan: Uh, what has, so we’ve done everything from, you know, full blood panels, uh, hormone panels, um, food intolerance panels. So I have like optimized my diet significantly based on, uh, inflammatory biomarkers or flammatory responses.
I have to certain foods with change over time. Um, uh, he has some great frameworks where he looks at people from like a physical, a mental cognitive, psychological, like, like buckets and lenses and figure it out. It’s figures out like where people need to optimize in order to, uh, you know, achieve the level of vitality and fulfillment and their life that they need.
Andrew: All right. Uh, I’m going to do an ad for my second podcast. You know, about this thing, big cloud.
Dylan: Yeah, of
Andrew: What do you know about bit
Dylan: fellow fellow crypto enthusiast.
Andrew: You are?
Dylan: yeah, yeah.
Andrew: So, you know what, I, I don’t usually care about this stuff because it’s always like in the future, not enough today. Um, but I checked it out and the social net, it’s a social network where everyone has a coin.
Right. And so I thought that’s kind of interesting, but I don’t really care about the social network. I kind of liked the idea of coin, but what does it, what does it matter if I’m, if I’m buying Elon Musk’s coin or Chamath, Palihapitiya his coin, and then he becomes a member, what’s the cool cares. And then I started to see software that’s built for this platform and I realized, oh, now I care because in some cases, if you own someone’s coin, first of all, you can buy and sell it.
But if you own their coin, you could have access to, uh, The community that they run to educational videos that they have to, God knows what the limits are just out there. And so I went in and I started buying people’s coins, and then I got access to stuff because I had their coin. And then in some cases, the coin goes up so you could sell it and make a profit.
And other cases goes down, which kind of stinks. But if I was going to pay for access anyway, it’s great. Anyway, the whole thing just was mesmerizing. And I wanted to understand it from a, from basics, from the ABCs and the best way. And, and I wanted to find my way in it to see where can I actually participate in this?
That just goes beyond being a viewer. I want to actually do something here. And so I said, I’m going to do what it’s worked for me before. I’m going to create a podcast. And so I did. And because through mixer, do you have access to incredible people? I started to interview some of the top people who are in this space.
And so the podcast is out right now. Anyone who’s curious about this, I think this is going to Dillon. The thing that excites me about it is I think it’s going to turn people from consumers to investors. Ryan’s an investor in your company, right? In mind, bloom, right there. Look at how, because it’s an investor.
He, he pushes me to understand your business. He puts his reputation on the line for your business, right. He’s probably helping you identify other, other influencers that might be a part of it. Maybe opportunities for how to promote it. Am I right about that?
Dylan: Brian’s the man.
Andrew: He’s a phenomenal guy. I don’t know how you got him, but he’s great that way, but that’s the difference between having him be an investor versus just being.
A customer, if it was a customer’s yours, you might tell five or six people, maybe give you some feedback and move on. But as an investor, everything changes. I feel like a bit cloud is doing the same thing. It’s making everyone an investor in the people and, and in the products that they use. So they have an incentive to help it grow because if it grows their coined value, their investment in, it goes up.
All right. A lot of this is just seems a little bit out there and truthfully it is, boys’ it exciting. And I think it’s, it’s a sign of the future. I created a podcast for it. All you have to do is go to your podcast app, the same one you’re listening to me on and go look for bit clout jam, because it’s about big cloud and I’m jamming with the people who are, um, we’re building it up to understand and to just talk through where this could go, go check it out.
And your favorite part cast app? Um, well, are you gonna say.
Dylan: I just, I just think you, you just hit on what probably the, I think one of the most exciting parts of, you know, blockchain enabling technologies are, which is, uh, what, how, how the token economy, reconfigures incentives to cut out the middleman prime, you know, historically, which were necessary, right? Like we needed, um, ad platforms in order to give like content and media out there.
Um, but allows people to directly become a part of a more aligned incentive, which creates a higher quality platform.
Andrew: Right now, I want to be a customer of yours. I want to try this out. The thing is though, I don’t, I don’t just want to try it out. If I feel like mind bloom is the future. And I feel like you’re onto something, dude. I feel this is amazing. I would love to have some upside in knowing that I’ve found it. And I’m sure that you’d like to make it available to your customers, but it’s a pain in the ass to do that.
Right. You can’t just start making these arrangements to everyone. The beauty of Bitcoin. It automatically does it, so it automatically creates a coin for everyone on the platform. There’s software makers right now, who instead of getting paid, they say, just hold our coin, just be an investor. And then you get the software as an upside.
So I like how it democratizes that or it makes it more evenly distributed.
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, my understanding is it’s also the platform, right? So there’s like no limit to what people can build on top of it. And it’s like the underlying
Andrew: You know what, truthfully, I find in many ways when I do SAS interviews, they’re very interesting, but it also feels like the past, it feels like you could do a really good business in creating SAS, but you’re probably not going to be 37 signals, you know, bootstrapping your way to this phenomenal greatness and a lot of the, the past.
Have already been, been walked on. What you’re doing with psychedelics feels like it’s brand new territory. It reminds me a lot of talking to John Flor of, um, I forget what that ticket scalping thing was, where everyone thought tickets gambling was illegal. He did the research. He realized it wasn’t a Nazi geek.
It was one of the predecessors that eBay bought StubHub. I think so. Yes. Right.
Dylan: John John flora craft, right?
Andrew: Uh, is that his last name? No.
Dylan: Is it craft ventures? Right.
Andrew: Oh a craft ventures. I don’t know. I truthfully, I lost track of him. He was someone who was a hard guest to get. And in many ways, a little bit scary. I think he thought, what the hell am I doing?
Telling Andrew all this stuff. This was before podcasting was a thing. Um, he made me make all these promises to my goal. This is dude, this is just a podcast. He was intense as hell. So I said, I’m done once we’re done. I’m moving on from him. I think he’s brilliant. And I keep referring to him, but I need to move on.
Um, but anyway, he was onto something and it was exciting. What you’re doing is exciting. What’s going on in crypto in many ways is also exciting too. And it’s broken enough to be interesting, but has enough potential to be worth dealing with the broken parts. And so the way that you found it is the surroundings that you’re in.
You realize this made sense. You said I’m going to go and explore this. You created it. Um, locally, you tested it a little bit remotely. And then how did you get, how did you get clients? How did you get people to come into the clinic and experiment with.
Dylan: Hmm. So, so initially it was just word of mouth. Um, I think one of the things that was really interesting is, um, early on, I had the hypothesis that there was just a lot of pent up latent demand for psychedelic medicine. So people are hearing surround sound from NPR and Dr. Phil and rolling stone and, uh, Michael Paul and Tim Ferris, uh, and their only option is to fly to Peru and do an eye WASC, a ceremony, or to, as you point out earlier, um, you know, find some underground facilitator, try to procure psychedelics, you know, illegally and do it on the.
Those are not great options, not, not very accessible, very expensive, very risky, um, risky both legally and also risky like psychologically, especially for people who have serious mental health issues to, to grapple with. Um, uh, so early on any of that, there just be a lot of Leightons and pens up demand that if we made this available to people, people would hear about it, they would learn about, um, so early on, it was just a lot of word of mouth.
Um, after that is really the first company to launch publicly providing a consumer brand for psychedelic therapy, or at least I think the first one like doing it in a very notable way. There are a lot of individual providers who were already doing this with pave the trail. Um, we just started getting a lot of press.
So a lot of inbound press from Forbes, rolling stone wall street journal, New York times, uh, Vogue, New York magazine. Um, a lot of podcasts that I think propelled a lot of word of
Andrew: asking you, or it seems like you’re also going after press, right. That I’ve seen press releases go out. You’re you’re drumming. Bye you are, but in the beginning it wasn’t that it was just letting people know. And there’s enough pent up demand that if you said this was available, word of mouth would get around and get you to first class.
Dylan: Yeah. I mean, that was when we were really focused on making sure that the product was really high quality. People are getting phenomenal clinical outcomes on their depression and anxiety. Um, and that, you know, there were no adverse events. Um, so across like thousands of patients now only had a few like moderately mild to moderately adverse events.
Um, you know, less than 5% of people have any side effects whatsoever compared to I think most people on SSRI. Um, and once we saw that our clinical outcomes were, you know, uh, order of magnitude better than SSRI, um, So like the average SSRI, like Lexapro or Prozac has a clinically effective response, 40 to 47% of people.
They take six to eight weeks to work. 30 to 40% of people are totally treatment resistant. They’ll try 10 antidepressants this year. They terrible side effects. Once we saw that we were getting, you know, 80 to 90% of people, a clinically effective response without the side effects. Uh, that was when we said, okay, it’s time to bring this to as many people who could benefit from this as possible, as quickly as possible to try to transform and ultimately save some lives.
Andrew: What was it a side effect that people had?
Dylan: Um, the most common side effects. So ketamine can cause nausea. Uh, our, our, our partner clinicians will often prescribe an anti-nausea medication. Uh, but some people don’t take it or it doesn’t work for them. Um, some people can feel groggy the next day. Uh, it’s a little rare. Most people feel a little uplifted and energized, but sometimes people can take a couple of days to get back to baseline.
Um, and those, those have been the
Andrew: What’s the harshest one, the one that made you a little scared.
Dylan: Uh, there was one client who fainted, but not most likely not from ketamine, but from the anti-nausea medicine. So it sort of went to, um, it was his idea that you can, uh, prepare for as many adverse outcomes as possible. But the things like in any business that are going to trip you up are the things that you don’t prepare for.
Uh, we, this massive, uh, packet of clinical protocols that our clinical advisory team reviews and signs every quarter, uh, that we have multiple people on our team doing case reviews, making sure our clinicians are following them. Uh, we have, uh, you know, short and long-term, uh, both like patients and company risk mitigation strategy that we build against.
And the first like moderate, you know, um, adverse event was something that wasn’t even on our radar, which is a super rare, likely reaction to the anti-nausea medicine.
Andrew: So why, so few states do states have restrictions again?
Dylan: Uh, right now, we’re just, no. So this, there are a handful of states that do have a restriction on the prescribing of controlled substances online. Um, I’m sure they’ll be getting through that because it’s very archaic. Um, um, but we’re just continuing to expand geographies. So we’re focused on, you know, the largest states at first, where we can help as many people as possible.
Uh, but by the end of this year, we’ll be in 30 states, 30 states reaching 70 to 75% of Americans. And they’re also expanding our indications from anxiety, depression, to other mood disorders and mental health issues, like substance use disorder, OCD, PTSD.
Andrew: you’re here in California, right,
Dylan: Oh yeah.
Andrew: Texas too.
Andrew: Okay. Um, what
Dylan: I’m, I’m from, I’m from California and I live in Texas, so I could not let
Andrew: we’re in Texas?
Uh, I just moved down to Austin. Um, six months ago, after 10 years in Manhattan.
Andrew: We’re going there. I’ve been in San Francisco now for over, over a decade, I guess, or about a decade.
Dylan: Come on down. I’ll take you to get your first pair of cowboy boots.
Andrew: you think I can rock cowboy boots?
Dylan: That’s what I said when I got down here and everyone’s, everyone’s like, you can definitely do it. Um, apparently the, uh, order of operations is cowboy boots in the first six months, cowboy hat, six months later. And then you had the BOLO tie after that and then you’re, and then you’re a Texan.
Andrew: do that. I can’t do that. I, uh, I may be cowboy boots. They seem like they make a lot of sense, but I can’t believe how many of my friends were there that I thought that it was. I don’t know. I, I guess I kind of worried that they all left already and moved on to another place, but I’m glad that they’re there.
I I’m really looking forward to it. We’ve got just a few more weeks here and then kids. Thanks. No, the best part about Mixergy is the people that I get to meet. I was introduced to phenomenal schools over there for nominal people over there were. So we got our kids into school and we’re moving as soon as school opens up.
All right. So that means I could try mine bloom over there. Why is it that it’s not just one session? Why do I need to sign up for subscriber?
Dylan: So it’s our subscription subscription so much as a succession program. Uh, there are a couple of reasons. One is that the clinical research that exists today indicates the successions is the ideal number of sessions, um, too, is that. We talked a little bit about how it’s creating this neuroplastic state, that’s going to help drive emotional and behavioral changes.
Um, it takes a little while for people to learn how to sort of undergo the experience. Um, so, you know, everybody at mind, bloom starts off with a really low titration dose, usually will disappointing for people, especially cause they’ve built it up and, you know, maybe were quite nervous going in. Uh, and then the clinician works with them to find their ideal dose.
Uh, in addition with psychedelic experiences, I think ketamine, especially, uh, there’s like, uh, something like meditation, there’s like a skill level to getting a lot out of it. So a lot of people go in and they need to learn how to navigate the therapeutic experience. Um, and. As a result, the sessions ended up compounding on each other.
Um, and so by the end, people have, you know, had at least a few, you know, really high quality therapeutic sessions. Uh, they’ve explored with their psychiatric clinician and guide, um, you know, different areas that they’ve wanted to work on and have usually come to some insights and have a plan of what they’re going to do moving forward to make changes in their life.
Um, so I would just think of it more like a treatment program. It’s like, why don’t you just take, you know, uh, one aspirin after you sprain your wrist? Like, it takes more than that.
Andrew: Do you think MTMA is going to be available through mind bloom at some point soon?
Dylan: Sure hope so. Uh, the way I think about it as our raison d’etre is to transform lives that go on to transform the world by radically increasing access to treatment, by making more approachable, affordable, and available, and building a product that helps people get better outcomes and have better experiences.
Um, so we don’t yet know what the requirements are going to look like for MTMA the risk evaluation and mitigation strategies in order to, uh, administer and distribute it. Um, but once we know that, you know, if there’s a way for Minden to increase access and help people get more out of that, you know, completely change my life.
Everyone here is a huge believer in every single person of the nearly a hundred now, uh, at mind bloom, uh, is, uh, you know, is just as passionate about psychedelic medicine as I am. And we think that envy may just as much, if not more than ketamine has the opportunity to totally transform the world.
Andrew: That’s another one that I’m hearing people talk about constantly as like the thing that changes their lives, they doing it. I don’t know where the hell they’re getting. So COVID hit, my wife said we need to get this thing. I started messaging people who told me stories about it. And number one, I thought that they would all be like, here.
Here’s how easy it is. I told you my story. So here’s the guy I went to. No, it’s always, well, it was easier then, but not now because of this and that person broke up with that person. Now it’s a pain in the ass and now they all know what I’m looking to do. It’s I’m not hiding, but then it’s apparently it’s the thing that you, that you take with your wife when, when things, when your marriage is on the rocks or something, I said, I didn’t even realize my marriage was on the rocks.
And why do I need Shane to tell me that that’s what’s going on, but fine.
Dylan: Well, now you’re talking about new medicine versus old medicine or new mental health and wellbeing versus old mental health care. Like you want to, I mean, I’m definitely not. Um, I’m not a doctor, I’m not a clinician. I’m not a lawyer. So this is all just educational. But the time to work on yourself or your relationships is before they’re broken.
Andrew: I think that’s what it was. I had a sense that you wanted to have a conversation about something, but you wanted also to have an experience. Anyway, we finally, I forget who the hell gave it to us, but it’s like a lot of bagging. We finally get it. I don’t know what the dose is. So what I do is I’ll just take more than I’m supposed to, which kind of freaks her out.
And then I’ll, I’ll drink whiskey with it. Which that makes me think. Maybe I’m not, I don’t know if it’s helping or not, but I’m not sitting around. If we’re on date night and the kids are with someone, then I want to, I want to have a good night.
Dylan: W one, there’s a couple of resources you can check out. Uh, one’s called roll, safe.org. It’s an educational website for harm reduction for MTMA can really walk you through how to prepare for an experience, uh, what vitamins you can take before and after what you definitely shouldn’t take before and after, um, some tips for before, during and after, um, another would be Arrowhead, E R O w I D a.
And that also has a lot of information. And so that can walk you through how to have a.
Andrew: want to, I like what you’re doing in mind, bloom, where there’s a human being who just answers it for some reason. There’s certain things that I like to read up on and other things that I want to have a person talk to me about and tell me. So I liked that, but who knows what it is, but here’s the other problem?
I don’t know. Don’t know what the dose, how much am I supposed to take a quarter? This like the whole, I’m supposed to cut the pill in half, like a scientist or like a guy in, in the pharmacy. So then we do that and then I have no experience with it, but I have a great night because she’s sitting there on the couch, we’re just talking. And so then we decide, this is a great night. We’re going to do it again. But this time she’s convinced that I need to do something so that I need to feel it. So we get enough for three evenings and we basically Polish it off in one because it took a long time for anything to affect. Here’s the, here’s the bottom line.
I don’t want that. I, I don’t want to drink whiskey and then wonder whether it’s going to knock me out or feel like water. I want to know that there’s someone who cares about it. It’s an organized system. I don’t like this. Go talk to a friend and see if that, if their friend will do you a favor and then who knows what they’re sending over and how long they kept in the refrigerator.
I like w like, what you’re doing is bringing this into, into, into decent society. And I also don’t like the haves and have-nots some people have friends and other people don’t. And then I also have friends who are part of some kind of clinic, or they have a therapist who will do the whole thing with them.
No, bring it out. If everyone’s doing it, make it safe and bring it up and know if some people are doing it, make it safe and make it available to everyone. How about that?
Dylan: Uh, Sandra sound like two vectors too, right? It’s dangerous in terms of the actual pharmaceutical they are taking, right. Or the actual compound. So now more than ever, I mean like, uh, fentanyl overdoses, like things cut with, you know, this incredibly powerful opioid are through the roof. Um, and you know, no matter where your viewpoint on where that’s coming from, like it’s can literally be life-threatening to take something without knowing what’s in it.
Um, and that’s getting increasingly dangerous. Uh, and then the second vector is like psychological danger. Like this, an MD may argue is a little safer, but a lot of these psychedelic medicines it’s like nuclear power for the mind. And so it can, like, you can run an, you know, a nuclear power plant of beneficial outcomes, or you can accidentally, you know, lighten nuclear warhead in your brain.
And so having, you know, knowing what you’re doing going in, in terms of preparation, the right dosage, navigating experience, and really having a plan and knowing what you’re doing or having someone help you figure out what to do afterwards, integrate it. Um, you know, it’s, it really can be dangerous and that’ll be a hypocrite cause I got lucky, but yeah, there’s definitely risk there.
And especially for people who’ve never done these things before and are trying to do on their own, it can be particularly yeah. High risk.
Andrew: All right, you hit on something big. Again, you still own a piece of a mighty
Andrew: didn’t sell it. All right. This is impressive. Fricking Ryan Hoover is going to is going to just change the world with you on this. And I I’m jealous now, maybe I’m a little jealous that you hit on this thing. That’s so revolutionary.
And it’s just so like now one of the future. Damn impressed. All right. That’s all I got to say mine, bloom.com for anyone who wants to go check it out. Right. All right. Okay. Can’t read you. I can’t read. You have a girlfriend
Dylan: Um, my wife is our head of engineering here in mind, bloom.
Andrew: Can she read you? Can she like tell when, when Dylan’s like uncomfortable with something she said,
Dylan: so this is really interesting. Um, everyone’s gonna laugh when you hear this because I haven’t gotten this before. This is my first time turning show. Self-view off.
Andrew: Oh, so you’re not looking at yourself. You’re just looking at me.
Dylan: Yeah, I’m trying to turn it off and it’s, I find it really distracting. Yeah. Really distracting looking at myself. How’s my hair look like? Do I have a spill on my shirt? Um, so I wanted to try having self view off.
Dylan: Well, I mean, obviously I like stone faced or something, so I’ve got, I’ve got, I’ve got a double click into this and see what’s going on here.
Andrew: All right. Um, oh, thanks for playing along with me, Dylan. Thanks. Thank you. And, uh, as a follow-up to this podcast, if you still like my style after this, and you want my inquisitive style on this new thing bit cloud, really? I love it. I love this platform. I love what I did with it. I actually, for the first time I edited, I even edit out the ums.
I like to leave the awkward, awkward part of a conversation, Dylan, in Mixergy interviews. I said for that one, because it’s such an out there topic, I want to be as focused as possible. I sat down and I edited every fricking word of it myself, to make sure that the audio and the message sounds clear and it’s available right now.
Go look for bit clout jam.com. Nope. Yeah, the.com is good, but also in your podcast, big cloud jam. Dylan. Thanks so much for being here, man.
Dylan: Likewise, Andrew, this was a blast. Thanks for having me on.
Andrew: Thanks. Bye.