Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters coming at you from a beautiful new home in Austin, Texas, Clate. Last time you and I talked, that was in San Francisco where I was for a decade. I’m now here in Austin, Texas, where it look out beautiful. This is over my shoulder.
I should be in my office. I can’t
Clate: Awesome. Good for you, Andrew.
Andrew: I heard your co-founder Scott Martineau. And I should introduce you. First Clate mask is the second time he’s an entrepreneur was here. The second time. He is the founder of a company, formerly known as infusion soft, currently known as ki they’re the company that revolutionized their, my mind, email marketing by saying, you know what?
You don’t have to have one list where everyone gets the same thing. We’re going to have a list with tags. And then you could decide what happens to people based on tags. If they bought tag them as customers. So they don’t get an email telling them that there’s a discount on the purchase, which is an awful thing to send to someone.
Anyway, he did that. Change the name from infusion soft to keep, I want to find out about it because frankly I’m a little confused about it. And most recently he created it. Coauthored a book called conquer the chaos, how to grow successful, small business without going crazy. I’m here to talk to him about the growth stage.
Last time we talked about how he started the company. I feel like it as a customer of his, it has been a little confusing for me and I, I don’t understand what’s going on internally at the company as they’ve grown. And I also am curious, like what’s working, what’s not, how do you go from a small business to what I feel is a huge company right now, without going crazy yourself and how do you get to that level?
And we can do it all. Thanks to two sponsors. I’ll just rush through this and say first sponsor. If you’re hiring developers, go to lemon.io/mixergy. The second I want you to consider investing in art later on, I’ll tell you about masterworks, but first click. Here’s what I was getting at your co-founders Scott, Scott Martineau also moved from the city to the country.
What’s his experience like.
Clate: Yeah, he’s loving it too. He’s just like you, I think COVID helped him see that he could work. He could be anywhere and be a major contributor to keep. And so that’s what he does. I just fact, I just got off a call with him a few minutes ago, looking at some cool new stuff that we’re about to introduce to customers.
So he’s doing his thing and having a blast, but, uh, is, you know, seven or 800 miles away. So.
Andrew: I’ve got acres here. The other day, we had horses and ponies here for my kids birthday party. We got a, uh, anyway, it’s it’s been pretty awesome. Have you gone remote now because of COVID
Clate: Yeah, the company is mostly remote. Um, what we do is on Wednesdays, we come in so that we can connect, collaborate, have a, you know, a little bit better experience, but not, not everybody is here local. So, you know, obviously people who live out of state are not coming into the office on Wednesdays, but, but generally, um, we connect on Wednesdays and then everybody’s virtual.
Almost everybody is remote. Uh, the other days of the week.
Andrew: what’s your revenue right now?
Clate: Yeah. We’re about a hundred million.
Andrew: a hundred million.
Clate: Yep. We are.
Andrew: And you took on some private equity. Um, I’m assuming you sold some part of your stake in the business so that you have a little bit of money taken off the table. Am I right about that?
Clate: Yeah, we did that each time we raised capital along the way. That was several years ago though was the last time we raised capital and now we operate.
Andrew: So as a customer, I’m a little confused. I want to know how you got to this state, how you went from small businesses to large business, but I’m confused as a company called officially keep, and Infusionsoft is a software I have. What’s the deal what’s going on there.
Clate: Yeah. Um, the short answer is the company is keep and the product you have is our max product. Uh, that was formerly called infusion soft. So they, we, we used to be called infusion soft. I’ll explain to you that, that it’s a little, I know it is a little confusing and for a lot of people it’s like, wait, what?
I thought it was infused. It’s it’s keep your, you have keep, and you have the max version of it. So let me explain, um, we grew the business, uh, to about 7 million before we took on outside capital. And then we had a vision to grow and be the leaders in, in marketing automation for small business. And we knew that we needed capital to do that.
So we raised capital. Um, by the way that distinction is important, because a lot of people think that we raise capital from the very beginning. We didn’t, we did just like our customers do, and we operated a profitable bootstrapped business. But when we realized that we needed to grow faster in order to achieve our goals and, and, uh, the way it is in technology, you’ve got to move.
You gotta move quickly. So we raised capital and we grew the business. And then we got to a point where we recognized Infusionsoft is, was indeed the leaders in marketing automation, but it was a little bit more sophisticated than many small businesses needed. And we could see that. And we got asked over and over and over, can you just come out with a light version of your software?
We need a light version, you know, isn’t there an infusion soft light. And we S we, we started to work on that a few years ago, and it was really challenging. Um, and it was challenging to have our flagship product and infusion soft and trying to create a light. So I brought in some people who had great experience building easy to use software for small businesses, but unfortunately their views of what a light version should be, uh, were very different than mine and my co-founder’s views and the investors that we had brought on board, uh, believed that those, those outside folks we had brought in were probably right.
And we as co-founders were probably not right. And so we went through a period where for about three years, the flagship product of Infusionsoft that, you know, and, and have used was really not being focused on instead, this light version was being focused on, but it was being focused on, in a way. Really was not aligned with what we do to help our customers grow by automating their follow-up.
And so we went through a really tough three-year period there. And, and then a couple of years ago, I got the reigns back just before COVID hit and, and, uh, then we worked our way through COVID and we’ve started to, we started to make progress. And what we did is we took that light version, which I’m very grateful to those outside leaders for, because they helped us create an easy mobile first way for our customers to do their CRM.
And we brought the marketing automation into it. So what they did is they, they created a simple CRM. We knew and know that the secret sauce is not just the simple CRM. The secret sauce is the automated follow-up and that’s what grows small businesses. We’ve spent the last year plus creating what needed to be as a light version of infusion soft.
Now, then the name, what happened
Andrew: before we get into the name, I’m still confused. So I’m hearing you say your customers were confused by how powerful infusion soft was and how many features. And I, I totally get that. I have found that it’s, that it’s complicated. And in past interviews, guests have said, it’s called confusion soft. I get it.
It has the features, but it also has a lot of
them. So you said we’re going to go simpler. You brought people in, they had an idea for what to do. You disagreed your investors, thought they were right. You then finally decided, you know what, maybe they are right. Let’s launch it. Is that what you launched and is now called keep?
And the higher level of it is what I have. And then there’s. I still don’t understand, actually, to be honest with you.
Clate: yeah. Let me off I’ll finish. And I hope you’ll understand afterward
Clate: what they created was a very simple CRM. And we called it. Keep what Infusionsoft was, was very powerful sales and marketing automation. The two were very separate under that prior leadership team. When I got the reigns back, I said, okay, we’re going to take that simple CRM.
That’s got a beautiful, modern experience with mobile first, but we’re going to put the, the secret sauce of infusion soft into that simple experience in a, in a light way. In other words, we’re going to make, keep infusion soft light. Maybe that helps you kind of put it together a little better. So why did, why did the company get called keep?
Well, we knew that most people would start with our product on the light version, and then they would grow up to the powerful, the powerful infusion soft version. So if most people start on the light version, it made sense to give that a light name infusion soft was a very powerful. That is different than what we created with the simple solution.
And as you said, it’s confusing. Infusionsoft is very confusing to people who need the simple solution. And so we own that. We created a product that was for more sophisticated marketers called infusion soft. And yet you’re going to call it confusion soft. If you need a simple light version. We created a light version.
Um, initially it was not the light version that the market was asking for. It was simple CRM, but now it is the light version of sales and marketing automation. And so what we have today is we have our key product. Um, we have a pro a pro version, and then we have a, um, our max edition, which is formerly known as infusion soft, but we call the company keep because the spirit of infusion soft and the spirit of what we do has always been about the, about entrepreneurs and helping them to keep going, keep serving, keep growing.
You’ve heard me share the story of, of, uh, that, that keep going story. And that’s why we call the company. Keep.
Andrew: What do you share that story again? Like fundamental to my understanding of how you got here. The one you’re talking about, the one with you and your wife at home.
Clate: Yep. Yeah. So we love empowering entrepreneurs. That’s the. Um, and let me, let me clean up that last part, just so you’re perfectly clear. The former leadership that caused that caused a very different type of strategy. That’s gone. I’m back at the helm. Now I have the, the control of the company to create the sales and marketing automation software that entrepreneurs need.
And that’s what we’ve been doing. And, and I’ll share with you after we tell the story, I’ll talk about some of the things that we’re doing, that, that made us the pioneer in the industry and are again, are co are enabling us to lead by delivering the automation that that entrepreneurs need. So the spirit of entrepreneurship is what drives this company.
We had a little three-year detour there. It was pretty tough to be totally blunt, but that’s a conversation for another. And that spirit of entrepreneurship is what we love to empower and ignite. And the reason we love it so much is we’ve lived it. We understand it. It’s where we, it’s, how we were born. We didn’t go raise a bunch of venture capital from the beginning.
Our days were very challenging. Um, the first three years of the business were a total struggle and my partners and I, at times during that period of time, wanted to quit wanting to be done, but we had personal guarantees and couldn’t, and we were very overwhelmed by the struggles of trying to make the business work.
Um, the turning point for me personally was when we started to use our. To automate the follow-up with our prospects and customers. And there’s a whole story about that, but, but I had gotten to a point about a year and a half to about it was about 18 to 20 months into the business. When we started to use the automation that we had created a very early version of what we have today, but we started to use that and I saw the magic of following up automatically with prospects and converting them.
And so I became very convicted and convinced that this was going to be successful, but unfortunately, a year and a half of, of struggling, like crazy, it’ll keep the lights on in the business had caused credit card debt to rack up. It had caused a lot of business debt. And so as our business started to have some success, it wasn’t yet translating into take home, pay and succeed.
Um, financially for my family. So the scenario was, we were about two years into the business, maybe a little longer than two years. Um, you’ve got to understand the context. I had four, four kids Sharifa, and I had four kids at the time. I had been to college for eight years. Uh, we had a mountain of student debt and, uh, we were taking home, uh, just a couple of thousand dollars a month when, when things were good and short, and we were really living off credit cards and we’d gotten to a point where there was really nothing left.
We couldn’t get more credit. Our credit was shot because of all the business debt that, you know, you know, how it goes. And yet I knew that what we had on our hands. In, in terms of our product, that it was, it was game changing and I was seeing the benefits and I would tell Shariece all the time she would, she would say, Hey, this is not working.
You’ve got to do something different. And I would say, hun, it is getting better. I’m telling you, it’s getting better. We’re, you know, we’re making sales, our customers are using the software and you’re growing. I can see it.
Andrew: Meanwhile though she was not able to get food. Right. From what I remember, you had to look outside your family, outside your immediate family to get food. What was it? Her family was bringing food in
Clate: Mike, my parents would do a Costco run and bring things to us sometimes. And yeah, it was, it was bad. And I truly was delusional. Most, most entrepreneurs, um, have a certain, uh, stage in certain times where they, they, they have to block out the reality in order to create what they’re doing, because any sane person would say, you’re crazy.
You can’t do that. And so you, you actually do get that. Delusional. And every, every creator has times where they have to do that. And it’s very hard to live with that person during those times, especially if that person is the breadwinner and there are four kids. And so my wife had every reason to say, this is not working.
You have to go get a real job. And she’d been saying that for several months. And I had been able to convince her each time that the business is getting better. Just hang in there, hang in there. Well, she finally, one night, you know, we were, we had a very intense conversation. There were tears on both sides.
Um, and I, cause I knew it was going to work and yet I couldn’t help her see it. And truthfully, she had no reason to see it. And so I just said, She said, you have to promise me, you will go look for a job tomorrow. When you go to the office, look for a job. And I had, I recognized that this was not going to end any other way.
And I said, okay, I’ll look for a job when I go tomorrow. Well, the next day I got to the office and as happens to all of us as entrepreneurs, the work envelops us, I was, you know, I got into my thing and before I knew it, it was six o’clock and time to go home. And I got in my car and I, I kinda was panic struck.
I was like, oh shoot, I have not done what I said I would do in looking for a job. And I felt bad about that. And I was worried about what Shariece would say, and I, the whole 20 minute drive home, I was just like, crap. I don’t know what I’m going to say. And I, and I was worried, I was worried about, cause it was so intense and so hard at home and had been for a long time.
We were about two and a half years into the business at this point. And so I walked into the house that day and I walked into the room where she was and she turned around and she said, Did you look for a job today? And I, shit, I shook my head and I said, no, and I kind of braced for what was coming. And she walked over to me and she just gave me a huge hug and she held onto me really tight.
And, and then for a long time, and I tried to let go a couple of times and she held on and then I realized she was shaking. She was crying. And I was like, not knowing what was going on. You know, I was, I was worried I had all these emotions, but I, but at some point I realized that she actually wanted to be hugged.
I was holding onto her. And then, um, I started crying and I said, you know, she, she let go. And I said, what, you know what, what’s ha what what’s going on? And she said, um, Just keep going. Everything’s going to be okay. God knows what’s happening. Just keep going. And I was like, who are you with the death of my wife?
I was like, what, what happened? And, and she said, I just, I just know everything’s gonna be okay. And, and I, you know, I, I’m so grateful for her faith and her commitment. Cause in that moment, like I, I felt a surge of energy. I’ve never felt in my life. I felt it’s, it’s hard to describe unless you’ve been an entrepreneur at odds with your spouse over the business where you’re pulling apart from each other.
And I knew that was happening. I could feel it. She could feel it neither. Was was really calling it out, you know, with extreme clarity, but we both knew what was happening. And so for her to say that and just say, keep going, it meant everything. And so when it came time to change the name of the company, I was not sure we should, but I agreed that there was a difference in product and a different, in a difference in approach.
And I also agreed that most customers would get this simplified product. And I agreed that it needed to stand for something simpler and easier and con you know, infusion soft didn’t didn’t fit that. And certainly confusion soft didn’t fit that. And so I was like, no, let’s, let’s, let’s name it something simple.
And let’s be, let’s speak to the spirit of entrepreneurship, which is to keep going the perseverance, the grit, the tenacity I’ve experienced it. Every successful entrepreneur has experienced it. Every struggling entrepreneur needs it. And that’s what we stand for.
Andrew: The way that you got from zero to profitability was using your own software, following up with people in a systemized way, which is what infusion soft was all about. Being almost like your best, the best version of the customers you wanted and the best experience you wanted for them. What I’m curious is how do you go from once you get that to where you are today?
I’m curious about like, it seems like what Infusionsoft did well was create software, hire a sales team, which your competitors didn’t have there. Wasn’t someone to talk to you. Also, we talked last time you had an upfront payment. So that, that way you could fund the, not just the sales team, but what wasn’t known very well at the time was the success, the customer success portion of your, of your team, right?
Someone who’s going to get on a phone and make sure that the software is used. Well, what was the next step? What, where, where do you hit a limit when you hit that? When you w with that system, and then what’s the next step that you took to grow? Let’s start with the limit. How do you know that you’ve hit a limit with where you were.
Clate: Yeah. We started to hit a limit. Um, when we got to right around 20 million, um, you know, we had about, oh, probably 150 employees at the time. And we started to kind of hit a ceiling where our systems were, you know, we were, we were struggling with our systems. We were struggling with some of the process and the people,
you know, they were
Andrew: Can you give me a specific example? I’ve heard a lot that at certain milestones things just break. It’s almost like you’re creating a whole new company, but what does it mean? That things break couldn’t customers still get the service that they want because you have people because the software works.
Can you give me an example of something that breaks that will help me understand what you mean?
Clate: Yeah. Sometimes it’s just, um, you know, it can be as simple as your, your phone system or your billing system, or, you know, your, your, the number of transactions you have start to bog down in the time it takes to do each thing worked when you had a certain number of customers or a certain number of employees, but now there’s more things you have to do and it takes longer.
And if you don’t have the right systems to do that, then you you’re, you spend so much time manually doing that, that you, you, you can’t keep up with it. So let me, let me translate it to something that people can probably understand better. If, if you don’t have a CRM system or. An email marketing system to have one-off conversations with each customer and to track those conversations.
Um, you can do that. If you’ve got 8, 10, 20 customers, maybe you can keep that, keep track of that in Google sheets, you can keep track of it in your phone.
Andrew: right. You’ve got a salesperson or a founder needs to keep track of. That works with the phone or the phone app that comes with your phone or the spreadsheet that you built when you got started. Okay.
Clate: That’s right then. But then as you’re numb, now you start to get some more leads and customers and you need to communicate with them. You just can’t do it one off. And so things start slipping through the cracks your, your, your customer management system is breaking down and the G suite of tools and your phone no longer.
Are sufficient. You, you, you need something else. And so that’s an example of where you have to start being more efficient in your communications. You have to be become more efficient in your tracking, because if you don’t, you just can’t keep up with it. And this is
Andrew: at, at 20 million, so solopreneurs have that problem and then they have to start hiring people to do more because they can’t do it. They get better software, but once you have 20 million in sales, Each salesperson can handle the leads that come through. Can’t you just say let’s hire more salespeople and we’ll continue with our system.
Andrew: So then where does it break down?
Clate: You can do that. But then what happens is you get to a certain point where now there’s more process that needs to be followed. When you have that many people, there are checks and balances that need to be done. Accounting has to check on this. And, and, and so just like that solo preneur, who now has more things they have to do manually because there are more customers, the same things happen happens when you have more employees there, there’s more manual process that needs to be done.
You’ve got to check with accounting on this. You’ve got to go take care of, you know, connect with marketing on that. You’ve got to go work with your customer success team on that. And so your, your systems that you had that helped you get to a certain point, start to become too inefficient and too manual.
And they break down just like it happened when you were a solo preneur. It’s because of the, it’s the math of relationships. So if you think of. Um, and in an employee to a customer and prospect, the way I described the same thing happens when you have employee to. And the math isn’t you just added one, it becomes multiplication.
Now you’ve multiplied. So each time you add a person there’s a little bit of overhead that is created for each other person in the company that gets added and the company can’t scale up in the same level of profitability. So when you say, well, let’s just add another person. Well, that person you’re adding is slightly less efficient and slightly less profitable because there are more people if you’re using the same systems.
And so you have to scale up and it happens. Very predictably. As you go through certain stages, I’ve talked about this many times and I’ve, I’ve lived through those stages. And sometimes no matter how predictable it is, you get stuck because you’re having to make changes to your SIS, your, your systems.
Sometimes you have to make changes to your people because you have people who work really well in a smaller business, but they don’t work as well. Collaborative collaboratively, cross-functionally communicatively. There’s a different set of skills that are sometimes needed. So sometimes you have to make system changes.
Sometimes you have to make people changes. Sometimes you have to make process changes to make it more efficient. And that’s what happens. It’s you can’t just throw more bodies at it. It becomes, you know, that’s kind of a cursed way to say it, but, but you can’t just throw more people at it because you’re, you’re becoming less efficient.
And the people that you’re throwing at it are less, less efficient, less profitable. And the business starts to lose money because you’re adding inefficient resources.
Andrew: And so that happened to you. What did you do at that point? When it, you know what, let me take a moment and talk about my first sponsor. And then I’d like to hear, how did, how did you respond to it at first and then how did it evolve? But I should tell you, my first sponsor is a company called masterworks.
Are you familiar with them plates? Totally fine. If you’re not, I’d love to introduce you to them. If.
Clate: I’m not
Andrew: Okay. So here’s what they realize. If you look around, you see a lot of wealthy people buy art. And the reason is that art would stands the test of time. Right? If you think back software doesn’t, if you think of the first windows operating system, it might’ve been great.
Or windows 3.0 might have been the big 1 95 was revolutionary. They’re all gone, right.
Companies that were on, uh, the Dow Jones, industrial average, when it started, many of them disappeared. Kodak is definitely not with the company that it was a long time ago. But if you think about artists, van Gogh, Picasso, and others, they still hold up.
They’re even more valuable today than they were before, which is why wealthy people do it. The problem is that I, and people in my audience and who knows, maybe you actually could buy it with multiple pieces of art, but most of us can’t. And so masterworks that. How do we securitize this to allow more people to do it.
And instead of buying one, maybe they diversify and buy multiple pieces of art. And the reason they did this is because if you look at it, it’s not just an emotional thing. Outpaced the S and P 500 contemporary our prices, uh, for total return from 1995 to 2020, by 164% during inflation contemporary art has price appreciation of 23%.
On average, whenever inflation is 3% or above. So, uh, so there’s reasons. What they did was they said, we’re going to hire people. They’re going to buy works of art. We’re going to securitize it. And then we’re going to sell shares of it. And that’s what masterworks is about. I urge anyone who’s listening to me.
Who’s considering investing in this to first of all, not just go and jump in, but to have a conversation with masterworks, if you go to masterworks.art/mixergy, they will schedule a call for you with someone on their team. You don’t even have to buy. You don’t have to invest. You just have a conversation with them.
See if it’s a good fit. If it is, they’ll tell you what to do next. If it’s not, we’ll say goodbye. And, um, I should say since this is an investment that you should see important regulation D email@example.com slash CD. But when you’re ready to start, if you’re curious, go to masterworks.art/mixergy master works.art, art slash Mixergy. All
Clate: cool. That’s really
Andrew: it amazing.
Clate: what they’re doing. Yeah, it’s
Andrew: of that. Um,
Clate: and art always appreciate, and most people can’t buy shares of that art. So that’s, that’s really cool.
Andrew: I’ve asked the founder to come on here and do an interview. He’s not ready to talk about how he built the company. He just wants to talk about art. And I said, well, that’s not really, that’s not really what my focus is. Um, so then what, what’s the first thing that you did? You’re running a fusion soft.
You’re starting to hit have all these things break down. What did you do to, to try to fix it?
Clate: Yeah. You know, ironically, I remember one of the first problems was we had to get a new phone system. This was years ago, and now there’s so many better solutions, but I remember just how expensive it was. It was like, oh my gosh, just unreal. Um, I remember that was one of the first things that, that we, you know, we hit obviously, um, facilities is another thing that people bump into and it’s very obvious when you’re like, oh, well, we’ve got to, we now have more people.
So remember I described each time you add more people, you have a little bit more overhead. Well, yeah. Now you’ve got. More space and what you used to be able to spend a thousand bucks a month on for your space. Now you’ve got to get something that’s 5,000 bucks a month. And so you have, you know, everything, the costs start to go up as you add people.
And same thing happens with phone system. And I remember very, very clearly when we hit that with our CRM system, we had always used infusion soft. Our product is for businesses that grow to, um, from one to a hundred employees, we were well past that. We were about 150 and we were feeling the pain of it.
And we had a choice. We could either change our strategic focus as a company and as begin to serve bigger businesses so that we could use our software. Or we could stay true to our, uh, our, our core of helping small businesses grow and recognize that we needed to use something different. That was a really hard, painful decision that took about a year for me to finally come around to, because I didn’t want to do it, but I started to see the challenges of what was happening.
Andrew: saying you, you outgrew your own software, just like you outgrow the office space that you have, you outgrew your own software and you had to swallow hard and then say, okay, we are not going to be using Infusionsoft to manage our customer database anymore. And we’re switching to Salesforce.
Clate: exactly. That was a painful, hard decision, but that’s, that’s exactly what we had to do. And, you know, I recognized eventually.
Clate: Software companies who do something for small businesses or medium size businesses, and they become big. They have to use something else. Um, you know, Intuit’s not running their finance and accounting on QuickBooks.
And, and, you know, I got to the point where I just had to swallow hard and say, okay, we need to do that. But it was painful. And I will tell you that most of our customers, uh, who are spared from having to go to a much more expensive, much more, uh, complex system. I I’ve had customers who went to Salesforce and came back and said, people who call this confusion soft, have no idea.
And I said, yes, I know, I understand. It’s, it’s a perspective. And if you have. If you haven’t, uh, the need for it, then it’s going to look really confusing. But when you go to a much larger system, you realize, oh my gosh, that’s tough. And you now are in the place of calling Salesforce confusion, SOPs. So, um, we, we experienced some of that same thing and we, you know, we S we, uh, bit the bullet and had to spend, it’s just very expensive too.
That’s the other thing is you spend so much more money. You have to hire people for it, a team of people to run it, you know, it’s just, uh, there’s a lot to it. So anyway, that was
Andrew: did you do that wasn’t working as far as transition when you had to transition what failed, what broke as you were trying to fix it?
Clate: oh, gosh. Um, so much of the automation that we did, you know, th there’s just, um, keep is an amazing automation platform. Um, people sometimes don’t realize, or they take it for granted. They don’t, they, or maybe they’re just not using all the capabilities of it. But we couldn’t automate in the same ways. Um, and we couldn’t do it quickly.
And, you know, it’s, it’s, uh, you know, keep whether you’re using the max edition that you have, or, you know, whatever addition using you, you have automation capabilities that you can do very quickly designed for small businesses to automate, to automate the follow-up. And that’s just, it was just much, much harder.
We had to get other tools to plug into it, uh, that were very expensive. And, um, so it’s, you know, it’s just, it’s just the, the challenge of software. And I hear my customers say a lot of, a lot of the similar things, but without, uh, an extra zero or two added at the end, so that, that makes extra painful.
Andrew: Okay. What about for growth for finding new customers? I love how in your book you say people who say that word of mouth is how they’re going to get new customers are basically saying we have no way to get new customers. What it, what happens to L what did you do to allow yourselves to grow beyond where you were?
What new marketing channels did you open up? What new techniques worked?
Clate: we always, we always had a marketing mindset from the very early days. Um, and we were willing to invest and make mistakes. Uh, even in those very early days where we were taking home two or $3,000 a month, we were investing $5,000 a month on pay-per-click advertise. Um, you know, the early precursors to Google AdWords and Facebook ads.
And so we just always had that mindset of investing in marketing, and we knew that we were going to some would get wasted, but we would learn. Um, and that, that wasn’t a waste. And so, uh, always looking for new ways to attract, um, prospects, but recognizing that the game is too is not to attract a customer it’s to attract someone that you can have the conversation with and begin to open up the dialogue and automate follow-up right.
That’s that’s the name of the game, if you, if you start to,
Andrew: So then are you saying you just bought more ads?
Clate: No, we, we, we just educated more taught more. So our, our scaling from, uh, tend to, I would say 50 was very much about teaching, teaching all about.
Andrew: Oh, teaching businesses, how they could have better follow-ups because if they understand the significance of follow-up, then they’re more likely to say we want software to help us do this. Right. And then they see that Infusionsoft at the time. Now keep is the software that will help them do it.
Clate: you got
Andrew: And when you say did, do more, how did you do it. Was it through affiliate relationships? Was it through buying ads that lead to seminars or webinars or what?
Clate: Um, affiliates were really critical for us growing from one to 10 million. Um, you know, I tell people all the time, once you’ve got a product that’s working and you’ve got, you’ve got, um, a business that gets to the seven figures, which by the way, only, only about 3% of businesses out there are over a million.
So that’s a that’s rare company. But once you get to that point, affiliates and partnerships are critical. And for us, that was key to grow from one to 10.
Andrew: are people who get paid whenever they bring business to you. Every time you get a new customer, they get a share of the revenue from that customer. Okay. And so that allowed you to go from one to 10 because they are out there with their creative ideas, for how to get new customers. You’re learning from them.
They’re sharing, what’s working for each other. Got it. And you’re building your marketing often into their marketing because you become like part of the things that they offer in their sales sequence.
Clate: That’s right. And it’s not that that ever goes away. It was just that, that was the main growth engine for us during that period of time. And then, um, from 10 to 50, the most important thing was teaching. Just, just educating and, you know, I think that’s probably one of the things, and it’s not that you don’t need to educate when you’re smaller.
It’s just that we recognize that was the best way for us to, to help customers and just serve them. And, and if they bought our software great, if they didn’t, they knew that we, we had their best interests at heart and helping them grow. And we’ve, you know, we, we just pioneered that space of automated follow-up and taught like crazy.
And, um, that, that was a very fun run. I loved that period of time in the
Andrew: Was that all advertising two landing pages, two webinars, and then follow up sequences and so on.
Clate: Some, yeah, some advertising, some partners, partners, work, you know, affiliate stuff. Um, some just, you know, just, um, blogging and posting and just sharing information. And every way we could speaking you name it, just, just getting out and teaching.
Andrew: Okay. And then to go from 50 to a hundred, what was it?
Clate: Yeah. That’s where, um, product and product marketing started to become even more important and really getting customers in and using. And, and so that, you know, that that starts to the game starts to shift there in software companies when you get to that, that scale. Um, and I’d say even. Today, the product marketing becomes critical much earlier on, but just for us in our evolution, kind of the times, you know, when we were going through that stage, that was really critical.
Andrew: What do you mean by product and product marketing?
Clate: Um, helping people understand how the product delivers the benefits that they want.
Andrew: Uh, okay. What about free? I’ve noticed that you’ve never gone to free the way say MailChimp has led with free. Why not?
Clate: Um, marketing automation and sales automation is something that a lot of times people have challenges with that they don’t understand until they’ve been running their business for a bit. And so we’ve, we’ve toyed with free on a number of different occasions, but what happens is most of those customers, they don’t know what they don’t know.
And they, the, the work to try to help them understand it is better left to the market and to the real world. And then once they realize what they need and what they’re missing, um, they appreciate automation and they appreciate that what they need to do to make it successful. So we’ve always been a premium product for serious entrepreneurs, and that is the way we position.
That’s the way that we stay focused. And when we get off of that, we don’t serve our customers best. We serve our customers best when we stay focused on those customers who are serious about growing. They’re serious about. About, um, following up and improving their business and they need automation versus early stage businesses that are just getting started.
They might want automation, but they don’t need it the same way. And by the way, that three-year period of time, that where I talked about kind of those dark days, I saw that even more clearly. And so we have a light version of our product, but it still is a premium product for people who are serious about automating.
Andrew: Have you considered buying one of the smaller competitors, the, the kind of software that your customers would use before they are ready to sign up for? Keep.
Clate: Yeah, we did. We consider that in the past. We haven’t for some time. I, I think it’s an, it’s a, it’s a nice idea. It’s hard to put into practice. Um, it’s hard to actually implement it. And so we, we bought a social media company many years ago with that notion. Um, it’s just really tough to do. And so we’re, we’re staying focused on our core and serving the customers that want to automate their business, automate their follow-up.
Andrew: What do you mean boats does social media company that you bought and what was the trouble with it? I didn’t realize
Clate: Uh, it was called, it was called gross social. It was many years ago. And, um, I’ll just say it’s really hard to acquire a company and integrated
Andrew: What happened? Can you, can you give us a few details
Clate: it didn’t work. Um, the, the product didn’t work very, the product didn’t work very well to help customers grow. Um, and it was too different than what our customers were doing. You have to, if you acquire a company, you integrate it. There has to be a good strategic fit. There’s gotta be a good cultural fit.
And the, the people, you know, as a small team, there are good people, but it just, it didn’t fit into our product effectively. So it, it didn’t, it didn’t work out.
Andrew: I see the press release. This is from January, 2013 that you acquire them. Right.
Clate: Yeah. It’s about nine years ago.
Andrew: What about on the other side, I’ve seen that, um, lead pages acquired drip. I see that. Um, I see that, that there’s, that there’s a synergy between landing pages and email. Have you considered buying one of the landing page creators and making that the onboarding process?
Clate: Um, we, we did, we, we did consider that, um, we, you know, ultimately we decided to just use our product and, um, so we, we chose not to do.
Andrew: Okay, this seems like there’s something in there. So it seems like just purchasing is not culturally a good fit for you.
Clate: yeah, it’s just, what’s in, there is acquisitions are a really nice idea doing them and making them work is very expensive. It’s much more challenging. And so particularly in the world of technology, when people are trying to create something to get sold, you’re going to buy a bunch of problems. I’d rather just have my own problems and work those problems.
Andrew: Alright, I’ll talk about my second sponsor. And then I’d like to come back and talk to you about some of the, the, the mind work that you talked about in your book about how you have to start there or emotional capital, I think is what you call it. Second sponsor is lemon.io. What they do, Clate. Is there a Ukraine, Ukraine?
That realized, you know what, the, a lot of developers in Ukraine, a lot of the founder’s friends asked him for introductions and he said, sure, I’ll make introductions. And then he said, I’ll turn it into a business. And that’s what he grew. And he bought some ads for me before this whole Russian thing happened and they did well.
And then I said, okay, there’s no way he can buy any more ads now. And so I just kept running some ads for him for free. And when we chatted, he goes, you don’t need to give me free. Um, I’m sure you’re suffering goes. We are, but not financially. We’re actually doing better this year than we were last year. I said how he said I’ve just been talking a lot.
We’ve expanded beyond Ukraine. Now they’re developers in other countries that still are less expensive than the U S considerably less expensive, still great fit. And the fact that many of us are still talking about him and that he’s out there talking and letting people know that he is growing, has enabled him to continue to grow as business.
I don’t know if he’s ready to share his revenue numbers, but he’s definitely grown this year. He still committed to donating his money to supporting these people. So I guess it’s not donation to keep paying his people despite what’s going on. He’s not looking to make a profit right now. And. I’m committed to continuing to talk about them, especially now that he’s paying for it.
And so I should say anyone who’s listening to me. If you like lemon.io before lemon is even better. Now, they continue to grow beyond Ukraine. They still have com. They still have great developers. They still will match you with them. So if you have a side project that you haven’t had a chance to get into hire a developer from lemon, put that developer on the project, they will give you a miraculous match guarantee within 24 hours.
If you’re not happy, they will make it right by finding you a D a different developer. And frankly, if you talked to them and you realize it’s not a good fit at all, you don’t have to hire them. You don’t have to hire from them, but let lemon amaze you with their great developers, low prices, quick matching.
And if you want an even lower price than they offer everyone else go to a lemon.io/mixergy. There it is. Again, lemon.io/mixergy. Find a great developer.
Clate: I am. I love that. I can’t tell you how many times I have entrepreneurs ask me about, you know, getting a developer. And I, you know, I, I turned them on in the past. I’ve turned them on to some of the, you know, some of the sites that have a bunch of different work, fulfillment, you know,
Andrew: I know, what you’re talking about. Like the Upworks of the world, the fibers of the world, et cetera, that they do a lot at, right,
Clate: right, right.
But I like, I like hearing one that’s very focused and that has a, uh, pool of, of developers. So I will, I will refer people to lemmon.io.
Andrew: right. With a matching service. Um, I’m actually gonna hit the market clip. I’m going to show it. I’m going to share that with the founder. Alex loves hearing stuff like that. So how about the Headspace? Like what do you need to do to get your emotional capital to the place where you can run a company this big, not get tired.
Keep on innovating. Keep on caring.
Clate: Yeah, well, I’m really glad. I’m really glad you’re asking me about this because it’s one thing to write the book when you’re, uh, you know, we wrote the book 10 years ago were much smaller. The business was in a different place. Um, and I had learned a ton at that time, but now having learned over the last 10 years since writing the book and especially during those, those tough years, I had to practice that I had to practice what I preach and I, my wife would remind me frequently because it was, it was tough.
And, and this is the thing that you and I both know most peop most entrepreneurs realize this, but some. There’s never an arrival point where suddenly things are easy. There are definitely times in entrepreneurship where things are less challenging, but the nature of entrepreneurship is there are always new challenges.
And sometimes there are business threatening challenges that come back. It’s not like you just get to a point, you know, you, if you’ve heard the FedEx, founder and CEO, he’s talked about times where the business was on the brink of bankruptcy or the brink of closure. Certainly if you look at some of the challenges that major companies have been through during COVID, you don’t get to this place where suddenly, oh, everything’s easy and amazing.
That’s just not the way it is. The market changes. Um, the economy changes cut inter cust, consumer interest, change, technology change, everything changes. And so. That’s part of what’s. So dang fun about being an entrepreneur, but it also is what is what makes it absolutely necessary that we as entrepreneurs manage what’s going on in our minds and what’s
Andrew: do you, how do you do that?
Clate: So I talk about this quite a bit in the book and I’ve, I’ve lived it, I’ve lived it in the bunch of different phases of this business. Um, you’ve you you’d, first of all, recognize a fundamental truth and that some people will say this or that some people will say, oh, I’ve heard this before. I have studied this for decades.
And it is, it is absolutely true. Our thoughts become our words and our words then form our beliefs and beliefs are not just thoughts. Beliefs have emotion wrapped around them in a way that has us holding onto something. And then our actions come out of our beliefs. And then the actions are what determine our outcomes, our goals, our achievements, et cetera.
But you have to understand that how true that is. If you just hear it as a nice platitude thoughts, become words, become beliefs, becomes act, become actions, become our habits, our outcomes and habits. I, my dad told me that when I was a teenager and I rolled my eyes and was like, whatever. And, and then when I got into the business, I recognized my dad was a big, positive, positive mental attitude guy.
And he was a teacher who in the summertime would teach in order to supplement his teacher’s income. He would teach various success courses. And so he’s big into positive mental attitude. And as a teenager, You know, I was like, whatever dad, you know, I didn’t want, I didn’t want to listen to it. But when I became, and then I went to eight years of college and I thought I was so smart.
And then I started into entrepreneurship and I got my butt kicked and I was like, wow, this is really hard. All the things I learned in school don’t seem to apply. And when I was really going through tough challenges in the early stages of this business, I began to remember the things my dad talked about with positive mental attitude.
And I remember in particular, him telling me to this book called the power of positive thinking, which is one of my all-time favorites. And I, I started the, I started the very intentional work on my mind and controlling my thoughts and managing my words that can then turn into emotional beliefs. That, that then as I’ve come to recognize absolutely drive our behaviors, human beings are very rational.
We don’t take behaviors unless we believe. That the behavior is worth it to take. And so this all happens subconsciously, but if we have a, if we have a deep seated belief, that’s born out of thoughts, we have that we entertain over time. And then we rehearse those thoughts through our words and talk to them in our minds to ourselves and even worse.
When we begin to talk to them to others, if those thoughts are toxic thoughts, we will have negative beliefs that we S that we have a bunch of emotion around and our behaviors will not lead us to the goals that we think that we are going to achieve. It will never happen. It only happens if we reverse that and we change our thoughts and we are the thinker of our thoughts and anybody who tells you otherwise is full of crap.
Thoughts do enter our minds, but we decide what stays there and how we think about them. And then we accentuate those thoughts with words. And so if we begin to speak you, I can listen to. Uh, a couple, I can listen to an entrepreneur. I can listen to an employee and I can tell what’s going to happen in their lives, by what they’re saying.
And you can too, most of us just don’t stop and
Andrew: do you control your thoughts? I wrote down that that’s one of the phrases that you use. I get that there, that there are a lot of thoughts in that, what we think about and then I like your next step is what we talk about then becomes who we are. But how do you control your thoughts? How do you personally clay, do it.
Clate: yeah. So you notice when a thought comes into your mind, notice is the keyword, you know,
Andrew: coming in? Okay.
Clate: We noticed that a thought comes in that may not be a powerful thought and we all have them thousands of times a day, but you notice it and you say, okay, I see that. And you call it out. You understand what that is? And you don’t allow it to just stay in your mind if that’s not a useful thought, as my coach says, if it’s not useful to you, then you turn it around.
You change it. You, you, you reshape that thought a lot of times, here’s a simple example. Um, I walked past my wife and she looks at what I’m wearing and kind of raises an eyebrow very easy for me to be like, I see all criticizing what I wear. And as soon as I have that thought, and especially if I start to give words to it, that’s not going to be a positive experience for me and my wife.
And so when I have that thought, I have a choice. I can either say, try to just push it aside. I can say, um, why did you look at me that way? Or I can say, just give her the benefit of the doubt and say, oh, she probably was wondering, you know, why I was wearing red again, two days in a row. No big deal. But I tell myself that.
So it, it, it actually
Andrew: actively tell yourself. So she comes in and this happens with my wife before we go see friends. I think she gets nervous sometimes. And so she might say, I don’t think that it looks good on you. Shouldn’t wear a go. Well, it’s too late. We’re about to go in and see them. And in my head, I think she’s being critical.
What you’re saying is I like this smile recognition. You’re saying, don’t just say I shouldn’t be thinking that replace the thought or. With what with, she cares about what I look like something. So it’s not enough to say stop thinking that it’s not useful. I have to find a way in to replace the thought.
Clate: yes, if you can. And that’s exactly it. If you just try to push the thought out of your mind, that can work a certain number of times, but eventually you’ve got no more place to store those things they’re actually there. So you have to change the thought and the thought that the, the, the most successful change is to do a complete 180 and say something like, oh, she loves what I’m wearing.
Well, most of the time, our rational minds won’t let us do a complete 180. So you just have to modify it a little bit. And if you just modify it slightly to say, oh, she cares about what I’m wearing or, oh, um, it might be that she just thinks I’m wearing red, you know, red two days in a row, or, oh, I saw she raises her eyebrow, but she’s probably just having a hard time.
Or there’s a hundred ways, a thousand ways you can change a thought. And so you just get good at changing the thought a little bit. So it’s not a conquering thought and that’s the mat. That’s the
trick that literally
Andrew: this to the next step. Like, so imagine that I, I have a thought I can sell to those customers. They’re too big. They’re outside of my customer base or the people that I’m used to. Right. So first recognize it. Instead of pretending that you don’t have those limiting beliefs, I get that second change it.
Say they’re not there. They could be our customers, or they may not recognize what smaller businesses like us have to offer. Right. So you recognize it in the moment, change it in the moment. Do then do something Clate that allows you to reinforce it afterwards, or do you just change it in the moment and that’s it.
Clate: no, you, you absolutely. You, you turn it into a positive thing and it can, in the example of my wife’s case, it can turn into a calm conversation that gets to the heart of what we were talking about. And both of us feel great afterwards, but if I react to it and I say, why are you always criticizing what I wear?
Well, we’re going to have a crappy night, you know, that’s, that’s not going to go well. So,
Andrew: so conversation,
what if it’s not, what if it’s a, what if it’s a thought that relates more directly to business that you’ve had on your own? you replace it as soon as it happens, right?
With one that’s more useful. Do you have any exercise Clate that you go through to reinforce it? Or do you just say I’ve replaced it?
We can move on.
Clate: Depends on what it is. If it’s, if it’s something that needs to be built on positively, then, then I reinforce it. I dig in deeper or work on building that if it’s something that just needs to be put to rest so that it doesn’t cause problems, then you know, it’s, it’s okay. You’ll, you’ll notice by your emotional state after you go through it.
If you, and this is, this might my coach and I, we call this a turnaround. Um, and the, and the fourth, the specific formula is notice the thought, is it useful? Are you sure? Is it true? Are you sure? It’s true. Can you change it slightly so that it becomes useful? That’s it? It’s a term. It’s a thought turnaround.
And when you. Good at it. And you do it very, very quickly and I’m not, I’m not perfect at it. I do stuff all the time where I’m like, oh, I got, I got activated over that thing. I got worked up when I didn’t need to. I could have managed that thought in a different way, but by the way, this is all on the negative side.
The positive side is what you’re getting at, where you build it, you build it and you grow it and you reinforce it. And guess how you do that with your words, that’s how you do it. You speak it over and over and you speak it to different things. So after this conversation, I’m going to talk to a bunch of people in the company about, uh, a conversation I had with a long time customer and the great discussion we had about the confusion he had about the brand change and about.
And I’m going to talk about it in positive ways, and I’m going to share all the great things about that. And it’s going to take on a life of its own because
Andrew: it’s not changing it in your own head. It’s talking it through with other people saying it out loud is what allows you to really change the thought and allows it to then be more useful. So if you, for example said, I can’t sell to enterprise at one point, I can only sell to SMBs like me. You would, first of all, recognize it, then change it.
And then you start to talk about it to your team and say, here’s why I think we could sell to enterprise, talk to enterprise clients and say, here’s why I think we could sell to you. Let’s have a conversation that we can understand. So it’s, am I understanding it right? Clate. Okay.
Clate: Let’s, let’s put, let’s put that business thought through the turnaround formula. We can’t sell to enterprises. Okay. Let me notice that first. I noticed, um, I’m seeing that, that, um, is that a useful thought for us? It, it, it might be that we really choose, we don’t want to sell to enterprises.
And so it’d be useful to say, you know what, we’ve architected like, this is, this is. I’m in a T there’s a posit that like, I don’t want to sell to large, you know, fortune 500 company companies. So if ice had the thought, we can’t sell to fortune 500 companies, that would be a useful thought for keep, because that’s not what we want to do now for you.
You might say, that’s not useful. I really want to get a fortune 500 account. So then you’d say, is it useful? And you’d say, no, it’s not useful for me to have that thought because that’s not what I want. So, um, is it true? Okay. Yeah, it’s true. And by the way, our mind almost always screams back. Yes, it’s true.
That’s why I thought it, you idiot. It’s, you know, that’s usually what our mind says. And, and you have to say no, no, no, no. Wait, is it really true? Is it really true that we can’t sell to fortune 500? Um, and then your mind backs off a little bit and says, well, I, I think so we don’t have any fortune 500 contacts or accounts.
Um, I think so. Cause it takes a six month sales cycle in order to do it. And I can’t put the time into that. I think so. And so then you start to get a little rational and then you say, okay. Um, if, if, if I really believe that’s true, but it’s not useful. Is there something I could change in that thought to make it a little less true?
I’m not going to just turn it around immediately as a hundred percent, a 180 degree and say, oh, I can sell to fortune 500 hallelujah. Now we’re going to hit all of our goals. No. Okay, well, what would need to happen for us to do that? Or you’d say, you know what, today we’re not great at it, but by this time I think we could be there.
Or you might say, um, I don’t have the skill to do that, but I know that if we got this person to come work with us, we could, you know, you just start loosening up the rigid held belief that you have, or this rigid thought that it’s limiting and you begin to put modification around it, loosen it up and get it to a place where you can turn it.
And that’s the work of thought. I mean, that’s doing the work on our thoughts and it’s what, it’s what ultimately, what I just described is what either causes entrepreneurs to succeed or fail, believe it or not. That is it. It is exactly what I just described repeated over and over and over again.
Andrew: All right. I’m excited to hear that you’re still doing this work. I’m curious about, um, who your coach is. Is there someone who’s online that we can find out about?
Clate: Uh, he’s amazing. And, uh, yes, his name’s Steve Hardison. I’ve worked with them for 12 years. Um, he, he is known as the ultimate coach and he is the master of what I just described. He is, he he’s incredible. He’s not for everybody, uh, because he’s very expensive. Um, but he’s worth it for the people who are playing a very high stakes game and don’t want to lose themselves in the process, which is why I went to him initially.
And 12 years later, I’ve worked on myself in all kinds of ways that I could never begin to express the gratitude sufficient gratitude for.
Andrew: I see it right now.
Clate: So Steve Hardison, the ultimate. Yeah. And he’s not, he’s a very interesting guy at any given time. He has eight clients and only eight clients, two per day, Monday through Thursday.
Um, I spent you spend two hours with him per week. Um, it is an intense experience for a year. You commit to a full year, you prepay for a full year. Uh, he does business like nobody I’ve ever known. He’s not trying to get more customers. He’s not trying to, um, for years he would not, he would not allow a book to be written, but gratefully just, uh, last year, someone insisted that it be done about three years ago and it got published last year.
And now you can go. There’s a, there’s a Facebook group. If you’re interested on, if you’re interested in really digging into what I just described. And becoming your best self from the inside out. Um, it’s, it’s a pretty cool Facebook group that that’s out there and, and, uh, you know, he, he, he jumps in there all the time and comments, but he’s not, he’s not a guy that, uh, is easy to just go sign up and start working
Andrew: he didn’t even write the book, I think is it is Amy Hardison?
Clate: Amy’s his wife and, and, um, Allen Allen road, Allen initially was the one that convinced him to write it. He told me over and over he’s he’s coached. He, he is coached to some of the best coaches out there. And, um, forever people have been saying, you should write a book. He said, I promise you, I will never write a book.
And, and then a few years ago people started saying, let me write your book. And he said, no, I don’t want to do that. He finally relented for a bunch of different reasons. And, and Allen Allen did all the research and pulled everything together. But then Amy and Amy was to be the editor, but she ended up being the actual coauthor with that one.
Andrew: Hmm. I never heard of them before. I’m glad I asked that question. All right.
Clate: He’s amazing.
Andrew: if anyone wants to follow up, first of all, they can go and get the ultimate coach. That’s the name of the book and then your book, which is called conquer the chaos. I’ve got it here in Kendall. I had all these notes. I spend time.
One of the things that I appreciate about your book was you said, if I have to read a book, I want to do it in one sitting. And I I’m paraphrasing. I always felt like that’s cheating. You can’t possibly get enough. And truthfully clean. That is the way that I get the most out of books. I sat down right here in the living room.
And I just read your book in an hour and a half. Cause I speed read. I do it a different way than you describe in your book. You talk about your speed reading process. Um, but that’s the way that I get the most out of it. And then after all that work, I got nothing that I used in this interview. Maybe like two or 3% of this conversation was that, but I’m okay with it.
I, I, I told myself a few years ago, I’m never reading a book just so that I could be prepared for an interview. I’m going to read the book because I like it and want to read it. And I want to know the topic. And if not, it doesn’t matter. Even if the guest is there, we’re going to talk about something else.
And so that’s why I read the book.
Clate: Well, thanks for reading it. Um, you know, we talked about, uh, I broke it into the, um, mindset strategies and systems strategies. We talked a little bit here about the mindset, but to me, it’s, it’s critical for entrepreneurs. If you don’t get the mindset, right. You’ll take yourself out eventually. So when your question of how do you, how do you do it?
You know, how do you stay on top of it through the ups and downs sticks and thin the relationship challenges, the health challenges, the world changes, all that stuff. It is the mindset strategies that I talk about in there. And then the system strategies it’s organizing following up, automating, which obviously is right that right down main street of what we do at keep.
Andrew: Yeah, I need to have, those could have been a topic on its own. And I thought that’s where I would end up with in the practical part of the conversation. But instead it was mindset. I’m glad it was all right. The website is Keith K E a p.com. I want to thank two sponsors who made this interview happen. The first, if you’re hiring developers, go check out lemmon.io/mixergy.
And the second, if you’re curious about what it’s like to invest in art, along with other people go to masterworks.art/mixergy. I don’t know if I’m supposed to read the disclaimer, I’m going to do it anyway. It’s masked. Go check out important regulation, a firstname.lastname@example.org slash CD Clate. Stick with me for a moment, but everyone else.
Thank you. Bye everyone.