How The Founder Of Crispin Cider Uses Niches To Take On The Beverage Giants

Within 18 months of launching his soda company, Nutrisoda, Joe Heron sold it to PepsiAmericas. He did it by offering something that ordinary sodas don’t have: health benefits. Now he’s back with a new beverage company, Crispin Cider. And he’s taking on the giants in the beer industry by offering something outside their specialty: hard cider that you drink over ice.

Even though I usually interview internet entrepreneurs on Mixergy, I wanted to introduce you to Joe’s story because I think we can learn a lot from it. And yes, even though finding the right niche played a major role, the headline on this post does oversimplify his process. Listen to the full interview to get details of how he did it.

Joe Heron is the founder of The Crispin Cider Company, which is dedicated to the development and marketing of superior pure hard apple cider refreshment. In 2003, Joe, who was previously the Senior Vice President of Novartis Medical Nutrition, and his wife, Lesley Heron, founded NutriSoda, which was sold to PepsiAmericas the second largest Pepsi bottler in the world.

 

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Full Interview Transcript

Andrew: Hey everyone. It’s Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy dot com, home of the ambitious upstart. And as you know, I usually talk to internet entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses. But a Mixergy fan sent me an email and linked me over to a video of this entrepreneur and he said, “You’ve got to meet him.” Justin Petticoat is the guy who introduced us and he said, “Joe Heron is the guy that you need to talk to. You need to have him on here. He’s not an internet entrepreneur but his story is so electrifying and the way that he delivers it is just motivating.” And Joe, I’ve got you on here because I saw that news report with you and I said, “I’ve got to go and build an even bigger business.” That’s how much you got me all fired up. So let me introduce you to the audience then we’ll take them through your story so they can get the same kind of energy from you. You now run Crispin Cyder Company and we’ll talk about what that is. And before that, you launched a soda company, Nutri Soda. In a world where I thought we had all the sodas that we can use, you come out there, you launch a new company and you sold it to Pepsi Co. Am I right?

Interviewee: To Pepsi Americas, yes.

Andrew: Okay.

Interviewee: So…what would you like to know about Nutri Soda?

Andrew: How about we do just a quick – so people understand what you’re doing now, before we go back in history – just a quick understanding of what Crispin Cider Company is?

Interviewee: Sure. Why don’t I just give you a little bit of background about me first? I’m South African, living in Minneapolis. I’ve lived here for nine years and everyone went left and we went right and it’s minus 20 degrees Celsius today. So a lot different to where I grew up. I started my career in advertising and then joined Bristol Myers who were my client and was started on a journey across the world with my family. I’m married with two children. And went to live in the UK for five years and during that time I joined a Swiss pharmaceutical company called Novartis and we lived in Sweden for 18 months and were then transferred to the US, to Minneapolis, to run their medical nutrition business. And I’m giving you the information as to how we kind of started Nutri Soda because I was running a medical nutrition company which essentially was nutritional intervention for sick people. So taking nutrients and helping people get well, get better. And my wife came up with an idea about an immune drink for people who fly a lot. So we’re, “Wow. That’s a really cool idea.” And because of the business I was in I thought, “There’s an opportunity to make something that really works as opposed to adding pixie dust and just putting enough nutrients in it to almost make a claim but not quite.” So we came up with this idea of a nutrient enhanced soda. It started off with an immune drink for people who fly a lot. We never saw one airline and turned into this drink that moms really liked and kids really liked because it was cool and hip and it was in an 8 ounce can and Red Bull had launched and created a space in the soda business where you could charge a buck ninety-nine a can. So you could actually pay and cover the cost of the nutrients making a reasonable margin. And I think, if you’re going to want a lesson, I think there needs to be an inherent level of stupidity in every entrepreneur because the cleverer you are, the more analysis you do and the less r

isk you take. And entrepreneurs manage opportunity. They don’t manage risk. And going into the soda business, on the surface, is kind of done. But if you can find an available space, then why not? And the available space at that time was health and wellness was a big trend. {INAUDIBLE] was a trend. And Red Bull had created a pricing model. And Vitamin Water had started to talk about vitamin-enhanced waters. And so the soda space, which was a little more frivolous, a little more fun, was available and vacant for a health and wellness type of product. And then that transferred into wellness benefits from your skin to your health.

Andrew: All right. I want to dig into every bit of this though. I want to know the whole story, how you got into it. And first of all, let me thank the people who are watching us live who told me that the audio wasn’t coming in clearly. And thanks to them I was able to figure it out. So Cover Cash, Tevi 2009, Will Lamb, thank you guys all for helping me with the audio as we we’re doing this live they’re coming in and helping me out. So, thanks guys. All right. So you had no history in the soda business. You had history in pharmaceuticals but they’re essentially two different worlds, aren’t’ they?

Andrew: [05:00] … you had history in, in pharmaceuticals. But they’re essentially two different worlds. Aren’t they?

Interviewee: [05:07] But the companies used to.

Andrew: [05:08] Completely different. Even if you’re going to add one to the other. It’s. It’s almost easier to add soda to pharmaceuticals considering your background than to, than to create a soda company that happens to have nutritional benefits.

Interviewee: [05:22] I’m making sodas taste good is really, really important. OK? So when you’re looking at this whole concept, you’re absolutely right because. People drink because they are thirsty. And that’s fundamental. And. And if you, you know, had all the interests in the beverage business. And I was. I’ve become more interested in it, and so it. Being at a, you know, a voracious reader. I wasn’t as much a, a beverage virgin as I, I thought I was. I was.

Andrew: [05:51] I see. So you were reading about it. And that gave you enough of a background for yourself to start.

Interviewee: [05:56] Exactly. So, you know. You start, I mean. The jerk. I always call the start of the business the break in the clouds. Because they. They tend to happen more random than people expect. The planning of new businesses is much more random than. Oh. I’m going to sit at my desk. And suddenly I’m going to start a soda business. You know, the. You know. We. We kind of had the idea. And I started looking at it. And obviously coming through my background. I had, you know, a pretty substantial strategic training. So, you know. When we came in, what I didn’t realize was that distribution was as difficult. That’s. That. That’s the heart in beverages. It’s. It’s all about distribution. Making products is difficult. But it’s not as hard as getting distribution.

Andrew: [06:43] OK. So, let’s go through the, the story in detail here of how you did this. How you went from an idea to a product to sale to, to Pepsi. So.

Interviewee: [06:52] OK.

Andrew: [06:53] You had this idea. Did you go and just start to formulate it by yourself? Did you go back to? I think you said you were working at. I think I. I think I saw that you were working at Novartis at the time. Did you go back to Novartis and ask them for help?

Interviewee: [07:04] No. It was. That’s not this place. It’s not their interests. They don’t. They’re. They’re up, not in.

Andrew: [07:10] So, what are you do? Do you go to your kitchen and start whipping up soda? I wouldn’t even no where to begin.

Interviewee: [07:14] But, you know. It’s funny, I mean. I think. I think that serendipity is another under-rated quality in terms of entrepreneurs. You get. You get lucky. And, you know. Minneapolis is a, is a great place to start a business. The six steps of separation in errity in Minneapolis is probably about two or three. So, once you start networking and discussing things, you know. You will start to build your knowledge base. And. And I found a fabulous partner down in Louisville, Kentucky called Pro Liquid Tech, a group developed by formulation. So what I would do is I would get these page, what I could paper formulations. So I’m going to make these small products. And then a new drink and a, a mantel alert. This drink is a fresh drink. And an energy drink. Those are the first, the first four ideas. Now, I.

Andrew: [08:05] OK. And did you say? Did? Was the word that you used paper? Paper formulations? So you would sit. And you sat down.

Interviewee: [08:10] Paper formulations. Yeah.

Andrew: [08:11] What? What is that?

Interviewee: [08:13] Paper formulation is I would go through the functional nutrients that I knew would solve, would have some solutions for, for, for symptomatic and behavior, like stress, or energy or and. And once you know those things, you can put them down. And a. I’m particularly interested in the meaning of acids as, as a functional nutrient. And one in particular, called L-Arginine, which has tremendous qualities from immune boosting to wound healing to, you know, facilitating insulin rest activity in diabetes. It. It’s just a. So I knew that type of stuff. But I didn’t know how to make it taste good. And by the way it’s a. One nutrient that I’ve totally in love with tastes like crap. I. It’s just the worst tasting thing ever.

Andrew: [09:04] Which one is it?

Interviewee: [09:06] It’s bitter. It’s really, really difficult to not. In a place where I said we’ve got to put three grams of, of Arginine in this soda and. And my partners are going. You’re nuts. This will never work. And, of course, so yes. The other funny story. So we had this immune drink. When are you going to another immune drink? You’re always going to have Vitamin C.Well, Vitamin C and Argnine, which is a proven block of protein, oxidises dead cow, literally. So what are, what are one of the products that came in. And you open the can. And it literally smelled of dead cow. So a dead cow soda and, you know. So you have to go through those things. I knew the flavor houses would help me on formulating. And this is a pretty important lesson for anybody that’s interested in a beverage business. Or any kind of business. And …

The transcript for minute 5 till minute 10 is BELOW this line.

Andrew: [05:00] … you had history in, in pharmaceuticals. But they’re essentially two different worlds. Aren’t they?

Interviewee: [05:07] But the companies used to.

Andrew: [05:08] Completely different. Even if you’re going to add one to the other. It’s. It’s almost easier to add soda to pharmaceuticals considering your background than to, than to create a soda company that happens to have nutritional benefits.

Interviewee: [05:22] I’m making sodas taste good is really, really important. OK? So when you’re looking at this whole concept, you’re absolutely right because. People drink because they are thirsty. And that’s fundamental. And. And if you, you know, had all the interests in the beverage business. And I was. I’ve become more interested in it, and so it. Being at a, you know, a voracious reader. I wasn’t as much a, a beverage virgin as I, I thought I was. I was.

Andrew: [05:51] I see. So you were reading about it. And that gave you enough of a background for yourself to start.

Interviewee: [05:56] Exactly. So, you know. You start, I mean. The jerk. I always call the start of the business the break in the clouds. Because they. They tend to happen more random than people expect. The planning of new businesses is much more random than. Oh. I’m going to sit at my desk. And suddenly I’m going to start a soda business. You know, the. You know. We. We kind of had the idea. And I started looking at it. And obviously coming through my background. I had, you know, a pretty substantial strategic training. So, you know. When we came in, what I didn’t realize was that distribution was as difficult. That’s. That. That’s the heart in beverages. It’s. It’s all about distribution. Making products is difficult. But it’s not as hard as getting distribution.

Andrew: [06:43] OK. So, let’s go through the, the story in detail here of how you did this. How you went from an idea to a product to sale to, to Pepsi. So.

Interviewee: [06:52] OK.

Andrew: [06:53] You had this idea. Did you go and just start to formulate it by yourself? Did you go back to? I think you said you were working at. I think I. I think I saw that you were working at Novartis at the time. Did you go back to Novartis and ask them for help?

Interviewee: [07:04] No. It was. That’s not this place. It’s not their interests. They don’t. They’re. They’re up, not in.

Andrew: [07:10] So, what are you do? Do you go to your kitchen and start whipping up soda? I wouldn’t even no where to begin.

Interviewee: [07:14] But, you know. It’s funny, I mean. I think. I think that serendipity is another under-rated quality in terms of entrepreneurs. You get. You get lucky. And, you know. Minneapolis is a, is a great place to start a business. The six steps of separation in errity in Minneapolis is probably about two or three. So, once you start networking and discussing things, you know. You will start to build your knowledge base. And. And I found a fabulous partner down in Louisville, Kentucky called Pro Liquid Tech, a group developed by formulation. So what I would do is I would get these page, what I could paper formulations. So I’m going to make these small products. And then a new drink and a, a mantel alert. This drink is a fresh drink. And an energy drink. Those are the first, the first four ideas. Now, I.

Andrew: [08:05] OK. And did you say? Did? Was the word that you used paper? Paper formulations? So you would sit. And you sat down.

Interviewee: [08:10] Paper formulations. Yeah.

Andrew: [08:11] What? What is that?

Interviewee: [08:13] Paper formulation is I would go through the functional nutrients that I knew would solve, would have some solutions for, for, for symptomatic and behavior, like stress, or energy or and. And once you know those things, you can put them down. And a. I’m particularly interested in the meaning of acids as, as a functional nutrient. And one in particular, called L-Arginine, which has tremendous qualities from immune boosting to wound healing to, you know, facilitating insulin rest activity in diabetes. It. It’s just a. So I knew that type of stuff. But I didn’t know how to make it taste good. And by the way it’s a. One nutrient that I’ve totally in love with tastes like crap. I. It’s just the worst tasting thing ever.

Andrew: [09:04] Which one is it?

Interviewee: [09:06] It’s bitter. It’s really, really difficult to not. In a place where I said we’ve got to put three grams of, of Arginine in this soda and. And my partners are going. You’re nuts. This will never work. And, of course, so yes. The other funny story. So we had this immune drink. When are you going to another immune drink? You’re always going to have Vitamin C.Well, Vitamin C and Argnine, which is a proven block of protein, oxidises dead cow, literally. So what are, what are one of the products that came in. And you open the can. And it literally smelled of dead cow. So a dead cow soda and, you know. So you have to go through those things. I knew the flavor houses would help me on formulating. And this is a pretty important lesson for anybody that’s interested in a beverage business. Or any kind of business. And …”

The transcript for minute 10 till minute 15 is BELOW this line.

Interviewee: [10:00] … A lot of big guys who will always help you. And the way that they work is they, in exchange for the formulation which you sell as your product, they have exclusive rights to supply you with the, the ingredients, and the flavor, the keys and all of that.

Andrew: [10:15] I see, so.

Interviewee: [10:16] So that. That.

Andrew: [10:17] In the beverage industry, you’re saying that there’s something called the flavor house. You go to them. They help you formulate the flavor. But they then have to be your exclusive supplier to that flavor. So they’ve. They have an interest in doing this. How did you even know that these guys existed? If I were to start a beverage business, I’d have no clue that there was a beverage house.

Interviewee: [10:36] I. I knew. I knew from Meyers. And I knew because I. In my original job at Bristol and Meyers, I was in the personal care division, which had a, a big deodorant business in South Africa. And deodorant. The way that it’s used in Africa is very different to the US. US is all about functionality. Don’t perspire. No. No wetness, to summarize what it is. In South Africa, which is less affluent. The. The. The mass population use it as a, as a cologne, as a, as, as a status symbol. I smell good, I, which means, you know, I’m a person of a certain level of sophistication.

Andrew: [11:15] Alright. Let me see if I understand this. You’re saying that there was. Where was it in the world that people perspire? And they love the smell of it?

Interviewee: [11:23] No. I’m not saying that at all. What I’m saying is in the. I was in the deodorant business. And I’m just in, applying the context of deodorant. Deodorants in the US is about not perspiring, not being wet. In South Africa, which is a less affluent background, people use it as a cologne. And so I was involved with developing quite heavily scented deodorants with these fragrance houses. Well, also, by the way, the flavor houses.

So the same molecular chemistry that’s used in fragrance is, is used in food. And so I knew about the, about these guys and how they worked. But I found a small guy in Louisville called Pro Liquid Tech. And Dave Diffo, who is now a very good friend of mine. He said, Joe. You got to get the big guys in it, do this for you. Cause you’ve got a great idea. But no one will do it better than us. No one will make these ingredients taste better. And also no one will give you more support. If you’re looking at the start up as an isolated business, most people that are probably watching now know it. And the more. The more support you get from partners and friends and family, the better. So, Dave developed a formula from my paper formula and made them taste terrific. So that’s how you get a product. And. And they.

Andrew: [12:50] OK. So you knew about the flavor houses. They helped you create your product.

Interviewee: [12:54] Right.

Andrew: [12:55] You insisted on having nutrients in there that were going to make your soda taste like a, like, or smell at least like a dead cow? Rotting cow?

Interviewee: [13:02] Yeah.

Andrew: [13:03] But you worked it out with them. They. They helped you include just enough of the nutrients that you needed so you could feel proud of the product. And.

Interviewee: [13:10] Exactly.

Andrew: [13:11] Also make it taste good enough that people will actually drink it without vomiting, put a smile on their face.

Interviewee: [13:15] And they never stop. Yeah. It. It tasted like tangerine and lime. That was the flavor in it, and so. And masking nutrients is very much. So you have a better product, you will tend to mask it with a little bit of framework. So lime, and tangerine, and citrus flavors work that way. And I.

Andrew: [13:32] OK. And if you’re watching this live, let me know what the audio sounding like now. If. Is it coming in clearly? Are you? Are you able to follow what we’re saying? Any feedback that you could give me would be helpful. OK. Alright. So. Now you got the product. In fact, before we get to the product. Did you write a business plan for this? Before you started out?

Interviewee: [13:52] Of course. Everyone writes a business plan. Cause it makes them feel really busy and useful and, and all of that. When the business plan, the five-year business plan changes every five minutes. So, yes. I think you have to write out a business plan. I think you have to understand the context of where it’s going to go and what it’s going to be. You obviously need a business plan to raise money. And.

Andrew: [14:16] How in depth was your business plan? Was it the kind of thing we see when we look at business plan books? With an executive summary? An analysis of the competition? Analysis of the opportunities? The, the five year projections of income, et cetera. It was?

Interviewee: [14:28] Yeah. Yeah. You have to do that. And then you. You would do. Yeah. An ROY. An internal, you know, rate of return. All of those things need to be, be out there. I think they’re all bullshit, but you have to do them. And you have to have some level of direction. And some level of, of, of the guardrails of what your business is going to be. Not least of which is how much margin you’re going to make relative to each product that you sell. What’s it going to cost you to make it? …

The transcript for minute 15 till minute 20 is BELOW this line.

Interviewee: How much, what’s the price going to be, and what do you use with that gross margin, you know, everyone, that, those are the important parameters. Whether the numbers are accurate is moved.

Andrew: I see, so the exactness of the numbers, that’s the bullshit part, but you, it seems like you’re saying, you are helped by the process because it helped you understand where you are going and it helped you really get a sense of where your profit margins were, or what your business is about, or going to be about, am I understanding it right?

Interviewee: Absolutely

Andrew: Ok

Interviewee: That’s, if you don’t understand that, you’re going to sell a product at a loss.

Andrew: And did you raise money?

Interviewee: We did.

Andrew: How much?

Interviewee: We raised about two million bucks in the end

Andrew: Two million?

Interviewee: Yeah.

Andrew: From who?

Interviewee: You know, we raised it from friends and family and angel investors, this is a very good city for angel investment. It’s a city that has a strong entrepreneurial flair, you know from Evado, through Tonka Toys, to Aussie Shampoo, to “3 M and retirement” 6:09, so there are, there’s a, you know I wouldn’t say that raising capitol, you have to withstand the concentric circle so the intensity grew, so Minneapolis has the old money that’s born out of, you know, the car mill, General Motors kind of families and that side, and you have a lot of medical device and people with wealth who have invested started medical device companies, and then, so we, we, we, we were very connected, and we were fortunate enough to have a strong connection in the Jewish community, who were boursed in the beverage business, so the Phillips family who started Belvedere vodka, and Dean Phillips was one of our early investors, and coordinators, and so that network started there.

Andrew: See, the South African Jewish community is pretty tight from what I can see. You go into synagogue, you see that they’re connected with each other, talk business unapologetically, and there’s a closeness that happens, true?

Interviewee: Well, one, I’m not Jewish, so I don’t really know that South African Jewish community other than my friends, but the Minneapolis Jewish community is certainly similar to that, it’s very tight knit, and very collegial, very entrepreneurial, and, and, that was a huge benefit for us, the lesson is this, it’s you’ll get into one network, you know, you are trying to raise money across a million places and that’s very hard. You’ll spend all your time spending, raising money, and there’s the silent product, and you’ll only make money selling boxes. The more boxes you sell, the more money you make. So, yeah, we were, honestly I think a lot of successful startups are just plain lucky. They have a great idea, at a great time, and then they, they get, they get the breaks that you need. We got a lot of breaks, we got a lot of breaks through geography. It’s all about, I don’t know if anybody’s read Marcum Ladmiral’s books. His most famous is “The Tipping Point” and then “Collaborating Outlines”, it’s a lot of success is circumstantial, and

Andrew: Do you really feel that? I mean, as a guy that has worked so hard, do you feel that it was circumstantial, more than hard work?

Interviewee: You don’t get success from not working hard, I think that’s a given. I think that’s just, you have to work very, very hard at what you do, but your circumstances play their role in, in your success and the speed of your success. So, I think being in Minneapolis was a circumstance that was unusual. I mean, sometimes I, especially like this morning, I’m wondering how on earth did I ever get from South Africa to Minneapolis. But so those circumstances played, played to my advantage. It’s a big consumer goods culture, from Target, to Best Buy, to Super Value, the big retail chains, through very strong, branded consumer goods. The brands that were developed, like General Mills, you know, like Evedo, like Tonka Trucks,

Andrew: Let me push a little harder, or deeper into what I’ve understood so far. So, you raised money through these connections

Interviewee: Yes

Andrew: How did you convince them that you, that they should bank on you, that you’re the guy to run a new________company when you haven’t had the background in the space?

Interviewee: You know, it’s probably the, that’s an excellent question because I think that angel investors invest in two things, they invest in the idea, you know, that’s what you invest

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Interviewee: Because I think Angel investors invest in two things. They invest the idea, that’s what you invent. And they invest in the execution. And the execution is who’s staring the business. So I think I have a good [creative] vision about what products are and how they should be packaged. You and I had an earlier discussion; I’m very interested in space versus place. So a vacant market space is space that’s available for exploitation through innovation. So nutrient enhanced sodas or hard apple cider that you drink over ice or those kinds of things. So once you’ve got that idea, I only talk about execution. How are we going to make it real? I think people have a way of seeing, that idea is good but the focus on making it real and executing very, very solidly is what people invest in me for. So that’s how, you persuade them on idea, person and the return. Who’s going to buy it? So if you’re in the business of starting businesses that sell then you need to know who’s going to buy it. Who is in your business end? You know, Coca-Cola, Pepsi are particularly acquisitive in terms of new beverages

Andrew: So you built this business with the idea that you were going to sell it? To Coke? To Pepsi? To one of the majors?

Interviewee: That was the idea on Nutra-Soda, for sure.

Andrew: Okay. Actually let’s go back to what we talked about last night in our conversation about this in preparation. It sounds to me like, what you do is you look for an opportunity to build something that the majors couldn’t get into because they don’t have the R&D, they don’t have the time. You’re building with the idea that you’re eventually going to sell to them. To outsource almost, their R&D and their risk-taking?

Interviewee: That was certainly part of the concept of Nutra-Soda. I’m not so sure that’s the smartest idea by the way, to have. I think the difference with people who build companies to sell and people build companies to do well are quite different. So I think that we were fortunate on Nutra-Soda but Crispin is being built differently. Crispin learned a lot from Nutra-Soda in terms of find vacant space execute well, get your distributors the tools they need, focus on selling boxes. But I would say that the opportunity in space, other than the clearly flip opportunities is also less competitive. Your Budweiser doesn’t have a cider. That makes it a lot easier for me to play because they not going to come crush me with a huge price differential.

Andrew: I see.

Interviewee: Do you see what I mean? So there’s two parts to the thing. Yes, and I’m using Anheuser-Busch [and beer] as an example because I’m not in their space and we’ve gone out and the content is proven. You’ve got a certain level of sales. You know, they’ve researched it and seen cider is a growing category. It’s growing faster than craft beer even. Let’s have a conversation. And my wife says no. I don’t want to have a conversation.

Andrew: They don’t want to have a conversation about buying you?

Interviewee: No. I’m laughing. My wife and I have a joke. She says please don’t sell this business because then you’re going to start another one and I don’t want to go through it again.

Andrew: Right. And how many hours are you working now, on this new business?

Interviewee: You know it’s

Andrew: [indecipherable] on her

Interviewee: You ask the right questions. I actually used to work a lot harder at [Novartis] than I worked in start-ups. Start-ups are inherently at bit easier because you don’t have a million meetings, you don’t have a million emails and you don’t have a million conference calls. You’re really focused on just doing what has to be done. The biggest issue is the dreaming. Your job just never stops. And you know it. You dream about Mixergy. And so, feeling rested and getting a balanced life is not an option. It’s not about the work. It’s about being consumed. That every time I drink something, every time I’m in a restaurant, every time I look at a book or something, a magazine, I’m just thinking about Crispin all day long. And that’s the big issue. But the work is much more balanced than in major corporations where everyone has the power to say no

The transcript for minute 25 till minute 30 is BELOW this line.

Interviewee: … but very people have the power to say yes.

Andrew: I see. I know what you mean. You really just never let it go. In the middle of the night you wake up almost doing your job and then you realize, “No. I’m asleep.” But your body, your mind thinks that it’s doing a job. Or you wake up with worries or you wake up with, “What am I going to do tomorrow? How am I going to invent the future the next day?”

Interviewee: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that takes a particular character. It takes a particular character to lose the safety net where, you know, if this fails you’ve gone. And so the risk-reward…you know, a lot of people, and I’ve had a lot of friends who have said, “I’m going to start a business.” But guess what? They wanted their old salary, their old benefits, their old…

Andrew: You know what though? You waited, if I’m reading your background right, you waited a while before you took that plunge. You had the safety and it wasn’t until later in life that you became an entrepreneur, no?

Interviewee: Yeah, I mean I was…we started Nutri Soda probably 2003. Eighteenth of April…May 2003, something like that. So yeah. I was pretty old. If you look at the data most businesses are started by, and this excludes cyber-entrepreneurs which are much, much younger and are always skewed younger than that, but if you look at fast moving consumer goods and typical consumer goods, people start between their late thirties and mid forties. That’s kind of the age; 35 to 45 is the most fertile time and I think that’s a function of a couple of things. One, you might have saved up enough money to be able to cover the year or so that it takes to actually get it off the ground. Because it’s going to take a year, from idea to putting a product on the shelf is going to take you a year. It might be two months less or two months more but it’s going to take you a year. And so…then you’ve also got the experience to evaluate what opportunity is. What does opportunity…What is a real opportunity? Because I do do talks to students and people at business school about entrepreneurs. It’s an interesting question. So you ask a group of about 40, 50 kids and you say, “So who wants to start their own business?” And everyone puts both hands up in the air. “I want to do it! Okay. Why do you want to start your own business? I want to be my own boss.” Well, that’s bollacks there. You always work for someone because you’re going to have a boss so discount those people. And ideas are like t-shirts. Everyone has t-shirts. Real business ideas are very hard to make. They take a lot of sacrifices. They involve not only hard work but sacrificing all the things that you get from a big company. Like a job, like medical benefits, like a car. Those don’t happen.

Andrew: And you sacrifice it for what? Why? You personally.

Interviewee: You go on black! Black…18 black. You put your number on, you say, “It’s going to land. And I reckon it’s going to land because I’ve got inside information, which is this: people are much more predisposed to being healthy. They’re looking for a refreshing drink but they’ll really choose a refreshing Nutri Soda over a refreshing Coca Cola with a lot of high fructose corn syrup.” So that’s the inside bit. That’s what you place on. You know something that no one else does and you’re going to go out and make the bet.

Andrew: I see. Okay. And for me too –

Interviewee: But that doesn’t mean you’re not going to land on 17 red.

Andrew: Yes, you’re right. It could end up landing on 17 red. For me too, it’s the unlimited upside that I know if I were going to go work at a job I could pretty much see where my life was going to be ten years from now. But if I go out there and start a company as an entrepreneur, it’s unlimited. There are no fences. It’s as far as I’m willing to keep going and as far as I can see.

Interviewee: For me it’s a little different. I think I’m a creative person in an extremely untalented body. So I can’t play a guitar. I can’t paint and I can’t…I just really am not…and I think that my gift is I can see the space. Like Wayne Gretsky. And it’s become a cliché and a horrible cliché, Gretsky would watch where the puck…would skate to where the puck was going as opposed to where it was now. I think because I’ve spent so much time…

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Interviewee: I think because I’ve spent so much time being interested in thinking about business and ideas that this is my creative expression. This is what I do. This is – this makes me happy. I really get happy. With running an almost $400 million business with 700 employees including a factory, and I literally loathed that job to distraction. And I hated it, it didn’t make me happy so my creative expression comes from doing this. My adrenaline comes through: I’m sitting in a bar on Wednesday night, I sit down and I order my own drink. Because, you know, that’s what you do. And the guy two seats down is drinking Crispen, and oh there you go – the other guy sat next to me and ordered a Crispen. The bartender says “I didn’t set it up, it happened actually”. So that’s an incredibly fulfilling model. You actually make something that people like, that you don’t even know who they are. There’s a significant fulfillment And a lot – I don’t know how many people are watching, or whatever. But I’d tell everybody, every entrepreneur out there. If you’re doing it for money, you’re going to get creamed, you never make any money. If you’re doing it because it makes it happy, you got a real shot.

Andrew: Why, why does it work that way? By the way, I don’t know if we introduced, I asked you in the beginning what Crispen Cyder was and I don’t know if we explained it. It’s hard apple cider that you drink on ice. True?

Interviewee: Correct.

Andrew: Ok, we’ll get into. Sorry.

Interviewee: Yeah, go on.

Andrew: Why is it that people who are out there to make money as entrepreneurs are the one who are going to fail, you would think if that they set financial goals for themselves and they drove every day to get to that, to those goals. Then they’d make it. That’s what that’s what you’d think it’s all about, isn’t it? To be clear about where you’re going and work hard to get there. And if the dollar amount is what you’re aiming for then you’ve got a very clear target to wake up and charge towards. Why? Why do you think that doesn’t work?

Interviewee: Well, I think pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered. I really do.

Andrew: What do you mean by that?

Interviewee: I think that people who have got money as their overall ambition are going to make different decisions, make different sacrifices which typically can be the antithesis to what it takes to succeed. And so, you know, being greedy – I’ll give you an example. So, we sold NutriSoda for what for us was quite a lot of money, what for some was not enough money. But, you know, we..

Andrew: How much?

Interviewee: I’m not going to tell you.

Andrew: Can you give me a ballpark, just , I don’t need the exact number.

Interviewee: Double figure millions.

Andrew: Double figure millions. So you’ve got two million in investment, we’re talking about 10 to 20 million in sales.

Interviewee: Correct. In two years.

Andrew: In two years?

Interviewee: In 18 months.

Andrew: In 18 months, but you told us earlier that it was 12 months from idea to launch.

Interviewee: Ok, 12 months to go. 18 months to sell. And that’s – it’s totally fortunate, totally lucky, totally blessed. It’s just not, not realistic. I would never…

Andrew: Let me see if I understand this correctly. So it’s 18 plus 12 months?

Interviewee: Yes.

Andrew: Ok. Alright, let me go deeper. I seem to have lost my camera, there, it’s back. Let’s go back to the beginning just so I get a clearer understanding. One of the reasons that I kill a lot of the motivational talks and motivational air of my interviews, is that I get so curious about the details that I don’t give us an opportunity to talk about how great life can be and, you know, get into the motivation stuff that you hear in locker rooms before football games, but I am what I am, and I got to get into the details here. So, we got into how you came up with formulation for the product, we got into details about how you raised money for it, what I didn’t get to ask you about though is where did you go for customers first?

Interviewee: Ok, so…this is how. There’s a step that you missed because once you have a formulation you have to find somebody to make it.

Andrew: Ok

Interviewee: Ok, and so we found a cold packer through our partners. And we got a cold packer in Wisconsin and we moved the Cold packing responsibilities to Minnesota, so we brought all the products to make it and the way that it works in any consumer goods product you’ll never get any distribution until you have a product. People will want to taste it, look at the packaging, look at everything so we got all of that together. And then we had to find distribution, so the era of retailing in the US has changed pretty dramatically in the last 15 years. The biggest change is Walmart gets increasingly powerful and then a whole subset of retailers invented ways to ..

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Interviewee: …to compete with Wal-Mart. And typically there were two parts to that. One is a big one called Target which democratizes design and makes it cool and hip to go and shop for clothes and some food in a supermarket. That’s one part. The other part is a whole slew of independent grocers who realize that they’ll never compete in price and they have to compete on service delivery. But that service delivery proposition is inherently great products. The cool shit that you’ll never find in a Wal-Mart. So gourmet sodas, gourmet sauces, gourmet food, great fresh produce, all of that. So that business is serviced in particular by a distribution channel called the gourmet distributors, like an independent distributor. K-Hee is a big one in Chicago. The Natural Food Channel have a distributor called UNFI and then on the east coast, they have a lot of these guys. That was our distribution model. We went after those guys before we went to the bottling system and before we went to beverage distributors and got in. And got on the shelf of these cool hip grocers. And that’s how we started selling.

Andrew: Did you know them before you started the company, well enough that you could bank on them? No. You just knew that you could create a product that they’ll probably like.

Interviewee: Exactly.

Andrew: But you knew of them before?

Interviewee: Actually, truthfully, no.

Andrew: You didn’t even know of them? You just knew that there was potential…

Interviewee: …lucky and just me talking to people through my networks, through my allies. We got one food and… We got one wine and spirits distributor. They were our first distributor. They were like the anti distributor. They were like they had so many products a friend of ours got us in and it didn’t work. But as you learn those things you learn your options and we got in. And then the other big distinction is as Wal-Mart, Target, Walgreen’s, Costco have got more powerful, you can go direct. But to go direct, if anybody’s listening and wants to know, you can’t call Target. As much as you think you can, and ask for an appointment to see the beverage guy. You’ll never get through. You’ll never know if you’re talking to the right guy because they change a lot. You never know…so you need a broker. So in the US, getting as a small company, your system of access model is built on three stools. You, the retailer – it’s actually three stools excluding you. The broker, the retailer and the distributor who puts it on his truck and gets it there. And so you have to manage all of that. And that we learned and hopefully I’m helping somebody that’s online now. That’s extremely important to know because ideas and products without access are PowerPoint presentations. They’re nothing. So the whole…and so with Crispin I thought I knew something. I knew a bit. I knew enough that I knew I had to go into the beer distribution system, okay? So we’re in the beer distribution system here and we sell to guys who are selling Miller, Guinness. Those type of products. And we spend 80% of all of our resources on that.

Andrew: In talking to them and getting them to take your stuff out?

Interviewee: Every day. Every single day. That is…and I would say for any consumer goods model, your access model is your most critical, critical obstacle. The idea, no matter how brilliant it is, if it doesn’t get on a shelf it’s just an idea.

Andrew: Did you know that before you got into the beverage industry?

Interviewee: I didn’t know that until enough when I got into Nutri Soda so I’m hoping to alleviate some pain for some guy or girl with a great idea that if they don’t know that, it’s really, really hard. So spend a lot of time finding out how you get to market. What’s the best…?

Andrew: Yeah, I would think you’d spend more time thinking about the product. A little less, but also a lot of time thinking about the packaging and the customer. But the distribution just wouldn’t occur to me. And I remember reading the book by the guys who started the Brooklyn Brewery who ran into the same problem. They had no clue. Did you read that book? Do you know their story?

Interviewee: I don’t but I love Brooklyn brewed beer. It’s just great. I think it’s terrific. Great beer and certainly inspirational to me.

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Interviewee: It’s just great. I think it’s terrific. Great beer, and certainly inspirational to me. So, and . . .

Andrew: So, you got to the Gourmet distributors. They’re the ones who took you into the store and they’re the ones who essentially sold your products to the people who would end, who would end up giving you access to the consumer?

Interviewee: Okay, remember I told you about circumstance?

Andrew: Yes.

Interviewee: I live in Minneapolis. My first customer was Targets. And so circumstantially Target is, is an incredibly credit retailer. They’re the ones that are looking for mass market ideas that are cooler, newer and ____. So Target was my first customer and we could deliver to Target. And so the next time I went to a distributor or to a customer, I said, “we’re in Target”. They went, “wow, okay, we’ll give you a go”.

Andrew: So how did you get into Target?

Interviewee: Well, okay, That’s, that’s, that’s broke up old time.

Andrew: And he just . . . why did he, why was he so good to you? What was it about your relationship with him?

Interviewee: Uh, I don’t know, my childhood, I don’t know . . . [overlapping conversation] . . .

Andrew: Okay. All right. Listen to me. I get down into all the details.

Interviewee: You know, he liked the product. He knew his buyer well enough that the buyer would give me a shot. And I’ll tell you another thing about Target. Target’s, you got to be cool. You got to be hip, but there’s one thing that counts for Target, you got to deliver. It’s very difficult to deliver. Walmart is the same. They’re not going to be screwing around for the small cruel idea that can’t fix in their system. So that’s where a broker can really help you in turns of your distribution. How’s it’s going to go, how you’re going to get it there, how are you going to get it to them. Uh, and . . .

Andrew: To make sure you can, you can keep supplying them.

Interviewee: It’s not only that. It’s not about being out of stock. It’s literally . . . it’s unique bar codes on shippers, on out of packs, and,you know, it’s a complexity that . . . and Target will train you. You go in spend two days with them. They’ll train you how to do that.

Andrew: What am I suppose to make of this. Of all my notes here. I see luck coming up over and over in our conversation in my notes. What am I, what is the person listening to us right now who is hungry to achieve something in the world, what are we suppose to make of, of just luck? How do we, we can’t make our own luck. Does that mean we should just work hard and hope that things work out?

Interviewee: I think, I think, I think you make your own luck. I mean that . . .

Andrew: So how do we make our own luck?

Interviewee: By working hard. I mean it sounds stupid and it sounds dumb. And so everyone is wanting, it’s all about . . . if you, if you’re going to start a business and you’re going to, you’re going to risk everything you own, and you have to have this, this idea that has a better shot than most to be successful. You’re betting on 18 black because you know and the need, you know something. And we had the discussion about market space versus market place.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Interviewee: Market space is available and relative uncontested space. Market place is doing another flavored water, another functional water, another energy drink, another flavor ____, whatever. Which ask so many people. How do you cut through and make through? That’s not luck. That’s, that’s being, that’s being smart, and that’s, that’s, that’s thinking strategically about opportunity, okay. Just blind luck, it’s not the same thing as luck, okay. They’re not the same thing. And activity is not the same thing as productivity.

So spending a huge amount of time on the packaging and . . . which is all important, critical, it still might not be as productive as really working hard on finding your space, exploring the space well, being ____, getting it in there first before everyone else came in. So you might be changing packaging.

I mean we went through three integrations of neutral ____ packaging in the first year. One didn’t make it. One made it. And then we did the third one which changed everything. But, we were fast and we kept doing it.

Andrew: What do you change based on? I know on line we changed based on data as it comes in from users, and we can do A B testing and instantly know which design works better than, than the other. How do you in the off line world know that?

Interviewee: Well it’s, it’s about being aware and listening ____. And so, and that sounds, and that sounds obvious, but if you, I mean, we’re, we’re, we’re about . . . so we’ve had ____ on the market . . .

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Interviewee: ….and we’re about to refresh it now. And it’s become a little bit more masculine, a little less wine like. These are just things that we do because we know we’re talking to…we do a lot of demos, a lot of tastings so we’re listening all the time. We’re talking to people all the time. The data points are less… I mean, unless you’re big and you’re General Mills or Kellogg’s or Nestle and you can go out and spend a lot of money on market research, ours is in-market research. It’s on the ground research. It’s talking to people research.

Andrew: When you say talking to people, do you mean going into stores and talking to them or are you bringing them in for focus groups?

Interviewee: Usually they’re at events. So we’re now in the beer fest, wine fest, food and wine festival thing. That’s when you’re talking to people that are probably screened a little bit. They’re interested in it. They’re typically quite educated. They’re typically very interested in the category; that’s why they’re there. So you can get good information there. And most of us, actually, if we’ve done enough work on the idea in the beginning…so for me, I’ll tell you how Crispin came about. So my really good friend, Scott, he’s English and he came over for summer and we’re having a bar-b-queue and he said, “Well, Joe, do you drink cider?” And he’s my age so we know…and Martin says, “No. I don’t drink cider. I don’t drink sweet beer. I don’t want…I like beer. I don’t want really something that’s for people who don’t really like beer and they just…and I’ve grown up in the British colonies where cider’s what you drink when you didn’t like alcohol.” Like Smirnoff Ice is today that’s what cider was then. So, no I don’t. He said, “Well in the UK we’re drinking it over ice.” I went, “Oh, okay. Very interesting.” So now I have a reason, a very good reason for someone to consider cider when they didn’t have a very good reason before. So I started to talk about that and discuss it and intuitively cider over ice worked for me. I could get it.

Andrew: Why? Why? At first it could seem like beer over ice. It seemed strange. Why did cider over ice hit you differently?

Interviewee: Well, because it’s not beer to me. It’s like alcoholic apple wine. Sparkling apple wine. And the sparkling side just sounded like they could work. Whereas beer, the context of beer over ice didn’t work. Intuitively to me it didn’t work. And it’s exploded the cider market globally.

Andrew: Cider over ice. Just the addition of ice exploded it?

Interviewee: Now, remember one thing. So the beer business has changed dramatically through what I call the serving ritual. So Guinness has a slow pour. Okay, but what is Corona? It’s weak beer that you drank with a lime. Bang! Big success. What is Blue Moon? A want tobe Belgian beer that, bang! You drank it with an orange. What is Stella? It’s an average lager that, bang! You drink it in a Belgian chalice. The serving ritual’s everything in the beer business. So suddenly I have a serving ritual of cider over ice in a cool glass and all of those things. Now I’ve got a whole ritual that I can start to get people to reconsider it. And it is refreshing. Then I had to go and look at the market and decided the market here is very sweet beer oriented. The brands are very much…they’re alternatives for people who don’t really like beer. Which was not for me. So we developed something with more sophistication in terms of flavour product. It’s dry and it’s crisp. So now I’m creating all this space in the category. It’s a different serving ritual. It’s a different flavour product. It’s a different packaging concept. It’s all moving apart. So that’s kind of how I create space.

Andrew: I see. Okay. So now instead of going head to head against the majors in the beer business you’re creating a whole other category and so you don’t have to battle them. You just have to be on your own. But from what I remember, even from elementary marketing in college, when you have a brand new product in a brand new category you have to really train the audience. You have to train people to understand it. You have to teach them what the product is. How it works with ice. That’s a lot of money and time, no?

Interviewee: Yes.

Andrew: And how do you do it now?

Interviewee: Well, we spend a lot of time and money. Do we spend as much money as Annheuiser Busch and [INAUDIBLE] spends on launching Bud Light Wheat? No. But do we spend as much time and effort going into a bar and getting people to try it? Do we do cider dinners where people associate our brand with great food and great…Yeah. We do that. We do much, much more work on an experiential marketing basis than on a mass consumer basis.

Andrew: With the idea that you’re now doing these dinners that people there will try out your drink in a new way and then they’ll take it home and introduce it to their friends at their dinners. Or if they’re out at a bar they’ll show their friends how to drink. How do you target these influentials? How do you get the right people?

Interviewee: Well, there’s the most important part is being…is what we call “on premise”. So bars, restaurants is where you go because that’s where you can illustrate that consumption moment, that serving ritual. Plus, if you choose, you’re starting to segment by choosing cool bars, cool restaurants. We’re very interested in neighbourhood restaurants in cool neighbourhoods as opposed to big expensive restaurants. I’d much rather be talking to people more like you and me where we like good food but we want it to be more novel, more creative and those things. We want to go to good bars where people really like to be and have fun. That’s our TV medium. Our TV medium’s the bar and the restaurant.

Andrew: I see. All right, let’s go back real quick to Nutri Soda. How did you connect with…I say Pepsi but it’s Pepsi USA?

Interviewee: Pepsi Americas.

Andrew: Pepsi Americas.

Interviewee: Which is the second biggest bottling group. It’s a listed company. Well, again, I go back to luck. So I live in Minneapolis. The Paulette family own the biggest individual shareholders in Pepsi Americas and run it. Well, Paulette runs it. And they were looking…if you’re a bottler in a Pepsi system and you’re a publicly traded company you’re very dependent on Pepsi Co. The products that Pepsi Co give to you to sell and they challenge that you sell. So it’s a pretty finite proposition. As Pepsi go, you go. And they were looking at how could they grow the bottling business so that it gained a little more independence from the mother ship. And this was a great test. They’d seen that it had done very well in their markets and we had developed a lot of our model here that they could take into their markets. So that’s how that happened.

Andrew: I see. And when I post this can I say $15,000,000 or so or is that…

Interviewee: Oh, don’t say any money.

Andrew: Don’t say any money? Okay. But the big money brings the headlines in which brings people to come and watch it.

Interviewee: No. Don’t…rather it’s quality not quantity.

Andrew: I’m going to say how an entrepreneur lucked into luck that led to something lucky.

Interviewee: There you go.

Andrew: We’re always modest as entrepreneurs!

Interviewee: I don’t know what people are expecting to hear from me.

Andrew: No. They’ve heard a lot here that’s going to be useful. I’m teasing because luck comes up over and over in my interviews with entrepreneurs and not a single self-improvement author has said, “Hey, you know what? Luck plays a part.” They never will acknowledge even a little bit of luck that goes into it. So I want to understand what part it really plays and I think it’s somewhere between nothing and everything. And I’m trying to figure out where exactly…

Interviewee: Andrew, grab that book: Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. I mean, he’s a populist writer and he writes popular psychology and God bless him, because he’s done extraordinarily well at simplifying some pretty complex concepts. And he’s well read and well researched so he’s I really found it interesting. He takes all of these things so he will say something like, “So they went and analyzed the most successful ice hockey players. Professional ice hockey players. Well, guess what? They’re all born in the first three months of the year.” And those that are born in January are more successful than those born in February which are more successful than March which are much more successful than the kids born in December. Why? They’re ten months more development. Ten months more physical maturity. That’s circumstance. That’s pure luck.

The transcript for minute 50 till minute 55 is BELOW this line.

Interviewee: …as Annheuiser-Busch and [INAUDIBLE] spends on launching Bud Light Wheat? No. But do we spend as much time and effort going into a bar and getting people to try it? Do we do cider dinners where people associate our brand with great food and great…Yeah. We do that. We do much, much more work on an experiential marketing basis than on a mass consumer basis.

Andrew: With the idea that you’re now doing these dinners that people there will try out your drink in a new way and then they’ll take it home and introduce it to their friends at their dinners. Or if they’re out at a bar they’ll show their friends how to drink. How do you target these influentials? How do you get the right people?

Interviewee: Well, there’s the most important part is being…is what we call “on premise”. So bars, restaurants is where you go because that’s where you can illustrate that consumption moment, that serving ritual. Plus, if you choose, you’re starting to segment by choosing cool bars, cool restaurants. We’re very interested in neighbourhood restaurants in cool neighbourhoods as opposed to big expensive restaurants. I’d much rather be talking to people more like you and me where we like good food but we want it to be more novel, more creative and those things. We want to go to good bars where people really like to be and have fun. That’s our TV medium. Our TV medium’s the bar and the restaurant.

Andrew: I see. All right, let’s go back real quick to Nutri Soda. How did you connect with…I say Pepsi but it’s Pepsi USA?

Interviewee: Pepsi Americas.

Andrew: Pepsi Americas.

Interviewee: Which is the second biggest bottling group. It’s a listed company. Well, again, I go back to luck. So I live in Minneapolis. The Paulette family own the biggest individual shareholders in Pepsi Americas and run it. Well, Paulette runs it. And they were looking…if you’re a bottler in a Pepsi system and you’re a publicly traded company you’re very dependent on Pepsi Co. The products that Pepsi Co give to you to sell and they challenge that you sell. So it’s a pretty finite proposition. As Pepsi go, you go. And they were looking at how could they grow the bottling business so that it gained a little more independence from the mother ship. And this was a great test. They’d seen that it had done very well in their markets and we had developed a lot of our model here that they could take into their markets. So that’s how that happened.

Andrew: I see. And when I post this can I say $15,000,000 or so or is that…

Interviewee: Oh, don’t say any money.

Andrew: Don’t say any money? Okay. But the big money brings the headlines in which brings people to come and watch it.

Interviewee: No. Don’t…rather it’s quality not quantity.

Andrew: I’m going to say how an entrepreneur lucked into luck that led to something lucky.

Interviewee: There you go.

Andrew: We’re always modest as entrepreneurs!

Interviewee: I don’t know what people are expecting to hear from me.

Andrew: No. They’ve heard a lot here that’s going to be useful. I’m teasing because luck comes up over and over in my interviews with entrepreneurs and not a single self-improvement author has said, “Hey, you know what? Luck plays a part.” They never will acknowledge even a little bit of luck that goes into it. So I want to understand what part it really plays and I think it’s somewhere between nothing and everything. And I’m trying to figure out where exactly…

Interviewee: Andrew, grab that book: Outliers, by Malcolm Gladwell. I mean, he’s a populist writer and he writes popular psychology and God bless him, because he’s done extraordinarily well at simplifying some pretty complex concepts. And he’s well read and well researched so he’s I really found it interesting. He takes all of these things so he will say something like, “So they went and analyzed the most successful ice hockey players. Professional ice hockey players. Well, guess what? They’re all born in the first three months of the year.” And those that are born in January are more successful than those born in February which are more successful than March which are much more successful than the kids born in December. Why? They’re ten months more development. Ten months more physical maturity. That’s circumstance. That’s pure luck.

The transcript for minute 55 till minute 60 is BELOW this line.

Interviewee: Why? There’s ten months more development. Ten months more physical maturity, that’s circumstance, that’s

Andrew: When they’re younger. When they’re younger and they’re playing, they’re, they’re the oldest kids in their grade so that they do better which means that the coaches spend more time on them which means that they do even better, and by the time they get older they’re unstoppable compared to the kids that were younger and smaller. Which means I’m, yes

Interviewee: You’re, you’re in, you’re going to, I can see you in the NFL right now.

Andrew: No, what I’m going to do is I’m going to hold my kid back before going into kindergarten for five years, till he’s the biggest kid in kindergarten, then he’ll dominate, he’ll get all the support from your bridges

Interviewee: You’re in

Andrew: He’ll be in the NFL for me.

Interviewee: I’m sure there are going to be parent that are doing this, holding their kids back so that it, it, you know, that, I just, it is luck, but you do make your own life. There is a difference between luck and being lucky and you know, fortune favors the brave and I look solid on that point. Just, you know, be stupid but don’t do stupid things. Those, these are things that, you know South Africans they’re given to Africans, the African culture is about stories and how we describe these things and the chairman of South African breweries is a very, very interesting man and a very direct and blunt man and he said business is like a wheel barrel, you have to pick it up to move it. And I would say that’s kind of really true to the heart of what your doing that makes a deal, what we’re doing. Just pick it up. Don’t look at it, it’s like jeez I build this really great wheel barrel, what a fabulous wheel barrel, pick it up, it’s not going to move unless you pick it up.

Andrew: What, I think that’s a good place to end, but I think I’m going to push with just a little bit more here. What are you doing online, what’s your online social media basic web strategy? I know that you’ve got a new site that launched, right?

Interviewee: We, we, we have a new site, it’s, I mean for us, we probably spend more time on our web, we spend as much time on the web as we do on “sampling”. Which means that we spend almost all of our time doing those things, so we, it’s clear, I mean this is obvious, everybody should have a website, but what is less obvious is that everybody should have a website that you can change every day and update and give useful information and useful tools, and, so that’s fundamentally where business is changing is how Facebook and Twitter change your, your sales force.

Andrew: So how are you integrating this into your business?

Interviewee: We have Twitter, Twitter we use functionally to tell people about stuff we are doing. We don’t tell them anything more than, hey we’ve done samplings, we’re available here, we use it as a directional tool. Facebook we use as a, an emotional tool, it’s, and it’s about connecting with people who really like this and, and using them to say, hey we, we’ve got this event, or we had this arranged or guess what the new Chrisman Tap album is coming out and you’ve got some inside information. So it’s the, Facebook’s much more emotional, Twitter’s much more directional, and the web’s much more informational. Those are the three pillars of our web strategy.

Andrew: Ok, alright, thanks, if anyone out there, I know that a lot of people who are into social media listen to me. If anyone out there is into social media, check out their website, if you’re especially a social media consultant, check out their web site, check out their strategy, let me know what you guys think of it.

Interviewee: Let me know what you think of it.

Andrew: Yes, let Joe know. I’ll introduce you to Joe so you guys can give him some more information about what’s going on in your world, since he’s shared so much of what’s happening in his world with us. Alright, the drink you’re holding up, can we see it? I’ve been watching you drink, it must be a fun job where you get to drink all day.

Interviewee: This is, this is probably the best job I’ve ever had.

Andrew: Do you want to do a pour so we can see what it looks like? There it is.

Interviewee: Well, I’ll just show you the bottle. That’s Chrisman, it’s our brewery that’s an, it’s extra dry and this is the glass, you can see I have it over ice. It’s a tough job.

Andrew: Yeah

Interviewee: I’ve drank half of it already, and we have, I’ll show you some stuff.

Andrew: I’d love it. While he’s doing that I’m going to thank a few people including Will Lamb, who’s always so supportive, what’s that?

Interviewee: So this is a, this is our tap handle, and as you can see, so we have our concept of, and if you, it’s easy to, if someone who knows what that’s about, they can read it. If you’re walking into a bar

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