How to outsource your tax headaches

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I know so many founders who have had tax compliance issues that drove them crazy.

Well, today’s guest has a solution for that. We’ll talk about that and the other insanely companies he’s built.

Scott McFarlane is the founder Avalara, tax compliance software.

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Scott McFarlane

Scott McFarlane

Avalara

Scott McFarlane is the founder Avalara, tax compliance software.

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Full Interview Transcript

Andrew: Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of Mixergy, where I interview entrepreneurs about how they built their businesses for an audience of entrepreneurs. Many of you out there are selling things online. Many most. Alright. It turns out, in some cases you have to pay sales tax.

Well, I had a buddy of mine bust really basically have to deal with the headaches of this. I want to keep it clean here. It’s really frustrating situation. I saw him in my office trying to figure out how can you just deal with the sales tax issue? I would have told them, you know what, just don’t deal with it for a little bit.

He instead was looking all over for solutions. It turns out there’s a solution. It’s today’s guest. He’s the one who created a solution. It’s Scott McFarlane. He is the founder of Avalara. If you’re selling things online, you just connect in with them. They deal with the sales tax issues. It’s their headaches, not yours.

And that’s just a small part of their business. They actually are all about tax compliance does not seem like a fun industry. It’s not God love and let it be Scott’s headache and let it be. Scott’s not fun. And he’s smiling. He’s always so happy. I’ve seen every photo of him. The guy looks like he’s good.

Maybe he’s partially good because he’s the guy who also created the lifecycle bikes that we’ve seen for years. And he created another company that he sold to another company early on in his career. And, and, and Dan, Dan, Dan, we’re going to find out all about that here in this interview and learn how a guy who’s built several successful companies has done it and what we can take away from it.

We can do it. Thanks to a host state or my sponsor. If you need a website hosted, I’m going to tell you later why you should go to hostgator.com/mixergy. First, Scott. What’s the revenue that you guys are pulling in with Avalara

Scott: you know, I mean, uh, uh, we’ve been really fortunate, you know, I’ve been at this for 17 years. We built a company from zero and, you know, we’re, uh, we’re, we’re, we’ve passed, uh, a half a billion dollars and we’re on our way to a billion dollars.

Andrew: half a half, a billion dollars in wait in, in revenue to you, or in taxes that you pay in

Scott: No in revenue and revenue dos in revenue does yeah. annually.

Andrew: You’re doing half a billion dollars in annual revenue.

Scott: We are. We are,

Andrew: Good Lord. You know what?

Scott: the company public in 2018 on the New York stock exchange. So it’s been quite a ride

Andrew: And it’s all fully public.

Scott: All fully public.

Andrew: All right. I want to get into the good stuff of how you got to here, but let me know. I looked at life cycle. I went back to their website from the early years. I see in the early years here, it says lifecycle was known as life fitness, and it was created by a guy named Dr. Kean, Dimmitt, demic.

I confronted you with this in the beginning of the interview, you said, well, let me tell you, there’s a great story there. I said, you know what? As long as you don’t feel confronted, let me ask you in the interview. What’s the deal there? How is it that you’re the creator, but I don’t see it online.

Scott: And so, so the way that it took place, you know, I went to school in, in, in California school called Claremont McKenna college, my roommate, and I, you know, we were always looking for the next big thing. Everybody else is trying to figure how they’re going to get into management, you know, management school and business school.

And we’re like, nah, screw that. Let’s, let’s go out. And actually let’s create a business. While we were in our dorm rooms in college, we came across this idea to create of all things. Jog-a-thon so a jog-a-thon, you know, that’s where you go, you’re running around and people sponsor you and, and we, and, and, and our athletic department wanted us to do it.

So we, we created, so we did the jog-a-thon, we raised a bunch of money and we came across this idea that said, if we became a distributor of weight equipment, we could actually double. Because they get a 50% discount. So they, we can double our buying power maybe by becoming a distributor. And so it was really is cool.

So instead of $60,000, we raised, we got $120,000 worth of fitness equipment for our athletic program. And, and in doing So we became these distributors and then people started calling us because this was right in the day. Of when fitness was really changing, I’m old enough to be around when people were like, ah, shit, I’m not, you know, I’m not, uh, I’m not going to do a fitness, you know, mean, I mean, meat and potatoes and smoking.

I mean and drinking. That’s what everybody was into, you know, they really weren’t into it. And, and, and, but we persevered and we started selling things to Nautilus, fitness centers, to racquetball clubs, and, and we became one of the biggest distributors, you know, in the, in the sort of Southern California area, we had all of our football, you know, all of our football team members, our track team members, you know, we had all the athletes

Andrew: turn this thing into this jog-a-thon thing into a business.

Scott: into a business.

Andrew: you got to you and your, your buddy got to keep the profits from this business.

Scott: Yeah, we did. We started this out and we, and we, and we rented out a safe way shopping. Um, I mean a Safeway store and we had all of our equipment in it. We had our offices back there, you know, we would Revere running a business while we were going to school and playing football, you know, and, and track and the like, and

Andrew: Where are we?

Scott: with all of our friends, that was great.

And then one day, this dude. Yeah. I mean, the doctor that you, you know, you mentioned, he walks into our office and says, Hey, I got this idea called, you know, life cycle. I don’t even know if he had caught a name for it? It took to be honest with you. I don’t remember. And, and, um, he said, this is it’s great.

You know, it, it revolutionizes the way people do, um, you know, fitness around riding a bike because before it was just those Schwinn bikes that, you know, I don’t know if anybody remembers what they were, but they were just awful. And.

Andrew: Schwinn bikes attached to some kind of a trainer so that they

Scott: Yeah, no, no, it was, you were just on your own, you know, you were just in a gym and it was, it was, it looked like. I mean, it was McCain. I mean, it looked like a, it wasn’t electronic at all. And the life, life cycle was the first one that actually gave you a display screen of how you were performing. And, and so it said, Okay.

you’re halfway up the hill and it did that.

And we said, oh yeah, this is great. Well, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll take it on. So He gave up. All of the, uh, distribution rights for, you know, uh, the world. And he said, you know, have at it, you guys, you know, I’m turning it over to you all

Andrew: all he did was he created it. He said, I don’t want to be the guy marketing it and getting excited about renting out a Safeway shop. I don’t need that. Agita. You take it on

Scott: You take it on, you know, it’s all, it’s all, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s all on your own. I’m going to, you know, you pay me some, you know, some money and it’s all yours. And so we took it and we, you know, we, we, we started designing the outside package the way you see it. And we started selling it and I it’s, this is the way I talk about a business in general.

Right.

Andrew: Your camera, by the way, just drop down. You did the coolest thing camera wasn’t working on the computer. You said, I know a guy comes in, brings a brand new camera can exit it to the system within like two minutes.

Scott: to get this. I got to get that right. I gotta get that right.

Andrew: so sorry you were saying that you took it over and.

Scott: Yeah. So, you know, so we took this, we took this on and this isn’t a time when I think, I mean, this is really when I look back on my career, I mean, this was really the start of who I am around business. Right? Because this is the thing that we were doing with life fitness was not selling a computerized bike, right.

For fitness. What we were doing is taking on status quo of people, not wanting. To exercise and to make exercise important. And so that, I mean, my, my partner, um, and I mean really was responsible for doing it as much as anybody, you know, he’s in The fitness hall of fame because he and a couple of other people are accredited with aerobic fitness and making it a big deal.

And, and I mean, when we were selling it, status quo was, Hey, I don’t want to do it. I don’t need to do this. It’s not in our pitch was, Hey, listen, if you get on this. And if you ride a three days a week, and if you rise it for 20 minutes every day, you’re gonna live longer. Our first year of lifecycle, we sold nine bikes.

We could only find nine people in the world that wanted to live longer. I mean, I mean, it was just really hard because you know, people weren’t out doing what it is today. Um, and so taking on status quo, it’s a bad ass competitor and you’ve got to change things. I’ll give you one quick story. When we, when we bought out the doctor, we had to pay a little bit of money and we had to have marketing dollars and everything.

So I went to my dad and I said, Hey dad, you know, we need $35,000. Would you invest, you know, in, in life, life cycle. Cause it was light cycle first and that’d be gone, came life fitness because we went beyond a computerized bike and we added a rowing machine. We added, you know, uh, uh, uh, you know, a StairMaster, a stair stepper, and, and that’s how it became like fitness.

But back then it was lifecycle. Would you invest in lifecycle? He said, son, I’m not investing in it. I mean, nobody wants to work out. It’s just not going to happen. And my dad was an entrepreneur and he had a whole bunch of hotels.

Andrew: What type of hotels, by the way,

Scott: what’s that,

Andrew: what type of hotels? I, well, you know what? Sorry, I’ll come back to your dad. Cause he’s fascinating.

Scott: we can get to that in a second,

Andrew: Yes. I keep interrupting. I’m

Scott: hotels.

Dad, I’m telling you we could put fitness centers and hotels and, and people will come and he’s like, son, nobody’s going to come to a hotel and workout. I mean, it’s just not going to happen. I’m not in investing in the company. Um, and so that’s what we were up against this norm. I mean, if you can’t sell your own father in, in, in, in doing it, I mean, it’s a hard sale, but we PR I mean, we persevered and I left after about four years of doing it.

And my roommate Augie ne. I mean was just unbelievable. And he is really the person who made, you know, lifecycle life fitness, what it is today. I mean, I was a bit player in the beginning and all I went, we, you know, we jointly did it with jointly. Got it going. It was fun, but he took it and he made it. He made it what it is today.

So I can’t take credit. I can’t take any credit for that, but it was a great ride and it was a great lesson.

Andrew: He ended up selling it to Bally fitness, the company that had all those studios everywhere, the G the early

Scott: valley fit as many sold at the Brunswick. Um, and so, you know, it’s, it’s right up there with all the household names.

Andrew: And then apparently he created quest software, the company that he sold to Dell.

Scott: You know, he was involved in with quest. He was involved with quest. They wasn’t, he wasn’t the founder of it. Um, there, there are other people, but he was involved. He was involved with it and it did get sell sold. And, and I mean, he’s just amazing. He he’s unfortunately, today as ALS, um, it’s one of the ironies of, of, of the whole, of the whole thing, but, uh, he’s doing Okay.

Andrew: Because he raised money for ALS over the years. Is that what you mean?

Scott: Yeah, no, well, he, he has ALS and, and, and, um, uh, Lou Gehrig’s disease and it’s amazing. Cause he started a foundation called Augie’s quest and, and he’s, um, you know, raised 60 to a hundred million dollars, some ridiculous amount to, to solve that, you know, uh, uh, insidious disease.

Andrew: I see it. I’m looking them up by the way, as we’re talking, that’s where I’m coming up with all this. There’s a documentary about him called Augie. I, yeah, the man seems amazing.

Scott: He is amazing. He is amazing.

Andrew: Sorry, I interrupt. I hate that. I interrupted you earlier, but it was only because I got so excited about you brought up your dad and I, and I was so fascinated by him.

You said you grew up watching him build this, this hotel company. What kind of hotels? What were you watching?

Scott: So, you know, he started out with one hotel and then he started, uh, you know, the w with, with, uh, uh, the Stouffer family started Stouffer hotels, and then it became Clarion hotel. I mean all told, I think there were 500 hotels when it was all said and done that he was, you know, that they either owned or managed, um, around the, around the country, you know, 35,000 employees, you know, he took the company public.

So I just watched that, you know, I mean, I was just at his, at his foot And I worked in the company after I left lifecycle, I went to go work with my dad for, you know, 10, 10, 10, 10, or 12 years, something like that.

Andrew: And your vision for yourself was you like the business you want to continue? You want it to run it one day? Is that right?

Scott: I did. I, you know, I, I grew up watching this thing in Arizona, so I loved everything about it. You know, I mean, I went to architectural school for a while. I mean, I just want to immerse myself in, you know, and, and, and doing it. And I love the concept of it was a unique company. I mean, they had a unique spin on it was, it was fresh, lively.

I mean, you had a great culture and I wanted to run it. I mean, I definitely wanted to run it. My dad was training me to, you know, to, to run it until he came to me and said, son, I got some good news and I got some bad news. The good news for me is I’ve sold the company. The bad news is they don’t want you around here anymore.

Andrew: Wow really. Okay. Because you’re the owners of the FA the past founder’s dad. Uh, you should be son, that kind of thing. Got it.

Scott: exactly, exactly. They wanted to bring in their own crew And you know, it was a foreign, it was a foreign based company, you,

know, dental company. So I was, I was, I was out of a job and it was devastating.

Andrew: wow. And so what did you end up doing now?

Scott: You know, I thought, you know, I thought that I was gonna just follow in his footsteps and start my own hotel business and start doing that. But it takes out, it takes, you know, it, I found out over time that, you know, it takes a whole lot of money to be able to. Uh, build a hotel and get it financed. And you know, and when you, when you have the backing of a big company, all these things, you know, seem easy, but when you’re on your own, it wasn’t quite as easy.

You know, it wasn’t quite as easy as, as I thought. And so, you know, we gradually, I mean, we did some projects, we graduated some things, but then a friend of mine came and said, Hey, I’m in the, you know, I’ve got a startup company in Seattle and we’re doing software and, you know, we need somebody that, you know, sort of with your entrepreneurial.

Just startup skills and, you know, would you like to join the company? And I, and I joined that company and I haven’t looked back in the software space since then. So that was probably 1992.

Um, You know, we had this idea that we were going to automate for managed healthcare, um, uh, metal, metal health, right?

So it was really in the, it was in the, uh, it was in the, um, Uh, uh, medical space and that we were going to solve that problem. And, and my, my now partner my event, I mean, my partner was in that company as well. My first job was to fire. Um, he’s the owner’s son. And so my first job in this company was to fire the owner’s son.

Um, and, and we actually set because I’m like, well, why do we need to fire him? He said, Well,

you know, we we’ve been working on this solution. It’s a proprietary messaging solution and we’re using Novell and he keeps looking at this thing called Microsoft and. He’s playing with the internet. We just can’t have him doing that stuff.

I mean, he’s got to focus on What we need him to do. And, and so they fired him because, you know, he was just way out in front of everything. And, but they did, we didn’t really exactly fire. And we said, Hey, Why don’t you go start your own company. Obviously you’ve got some ideas about this. So we gave him a closet.

I mean, I mean, I mean a closet, a real closet, and that was his office and, and, and w you know, he could use our, you know, public space and he said, you know, and I think Microsoft NT, and I think the internet has legs. I’m going to create the first commercial version. Have a DNS and DHCP server for Microsoft and T because Microsoft did not work on the internet until Jared and his thing.

I mean, his idea came along and made it commercially viable. And so he had this idea and he put out the companies, this, this thing, and they, they suck. They said, they’re going to sell a hundred of these in one year, and then they put it out. They got a little bit of press back in the day, they sold a hundred in their first day.

And, and, um, it became, you know, a ubiquitous solution for, you know, if you’re going to be on the internet unit, you needed a DNS and DHCP server, you know, for Microsoft. And it just went crazy. It was, uh, an idea that was short-lived over time because obviously Microsoft was going to build it into its operating system and it wasn’t really it’s.

So we needed a second act and, and, and, and anyways, that’s, uh, I mean, that’s how we got going,

Andrew: What was your involvement in that business?

Scott: so the, the PR the fathers came to me and said, Hey, mean, uh, now that we’ve fired Jared, and he’s got this great idea, he has no idea how to run it. Scott, would you leave? You know, the medical company. And would you go with Jared and help him run the company?

I’m like, hell yes, I would. And, and so I became the president of the company. Jared was a CEO and we, you know, we, we grew the business with one other partner and then sold it, the checkpoint software out of Israel,

Andrew: The company I interviewed their founder. He’s I think Israel’s first billionaire or this a cybersecurity

company.

Scott: I worked for Gill. I worked for Gill.

Andrew: you know, he sat and he wouldn’t, he, you moved a lot in this interview. He sat down and moved so much. I was worried he was going to fall over. I asked him about it. He said my whole life had been like this was he like that?

When you saw him,

Scott: Oh, yeah, he is. He was the greatest, I mean, really. I mean, I just had so much fun. I mean, that was one of the greatest gigs of my entire,

my

Andrew: did you love about it?

Scott: Well, I mean, just so much one, it, it just followed everything that I’d been involved in. Right. We started lifecycle. it?

really is brand new. You know, Jared with, with, Uh,

uh, you know, meta info and DNS and DHCP was brand new, you know, going out there and Gil and checkpoint.

I mean it, when we joined it in 1997, I mean, it was just newly public in the, in the firewall. Hadn’t really made. I mean, it was important, but it wasn’t the w the way it is today. So security was this new it brand new area that was going to be big. And so I got, I mean, I got to be on a ground level, you know, working with them.

You know, Gil Schwedt and Jerry younger man, you know, two great mentors of mine about how you, you know, how you, you know, start up a company and how you grow it and how you take it public and you know, how you make it global. And I think that, that’s the one thing that I learned more than anything else.

When you think about a company coming out of. I mean the day it opens its doors, it’s a global company because there is no business in Israel. I mean, limited, Right.

I mean, it’s a small country. So, you, when we start a company here in the United States, we’re saying, well, let’s go tackle the United States and it’s the biggest market.

And so we get pigeonholed into thinking United States, rest of the world. I mean, and I just think that that’s, uh, uh, in today’s world, just a FA a failed sort of, you know, vision because everything is global today.

Andrew: So, what did you learn about going global from him? I remember one of the things he told me was as soon as they started the company, he was told to go to California and not come back until he had at least a million dollars in sales that he had to go and prove himself there. But you seem to have learned a bigger lesson about how to grow in and out.

Scott: So they wanted to go. I mean, so when, when you, when you, when we joined the, but you, they would say, let’s go have a leadership meeting. Let’s go, let’s go have a leadership meeting. And we think, well, let’s go to the leadership meeting. Let’s go to San Francisco or let’s go to Austin or let’s go to Washington DC there.

I was blown away because they said, Okay.

this leadership meeting is going to be in Prague. And the next one is in Barcelona. Next one’s in Washington, DC. The next one’s in San Francisco, the world. They viewed the world as the world, as opposed to okay. Mean, you know, we’re just gonna, w you know, we’re gonna focus on 1, 1, 1 part of one part of the world.

They

were

global

Andrew: setting up offices all over the world too, and leaders all over the world. Got it. So you’re saying the difference is between saying we’re going to make ourselves available to anyone who wants to come to us, to our website and buy versus we’re going to establish people all over the world.

God, I think that’s what you’re saying.

Scott: And it’s pre, and this was pre internet as a, as a, as a global marketplace. Right? I mean, so, so, you know, they were still selling in country, but their view was just entirely global. I mean, it’s just, it’s, it was amazing, Right.

To watch a company out of Tel-Aviv, you know, grow to, you know, to, to what it has.

And, and, you know, it was really fun being, it was really fun being involved in it. I mean truly, and it really set me up for what we’re doing today. I mean, I’m forever grateful for that, for that opportunity,

Andrew: All right. I want to find out about that. That’s. You, but before we go into that, tell me about, um, that did change your life at all for this company to have been sold. Did you have enough equity that you, I don’t know that you’d made it in some way.

Scott: you know? Um, it, it was, it was, uh, it was a subs. I mean, it was a substantial, it was a substantial sum. I mean, you know, And, and it was, it’s just really interesting. I mean, I learned, I learned, you know, I learned a lot about, about, you know, how you help, you know, help yourself when you get into those kinds of situations, because I made all the bloody mistakes that you could possibly make.

I mean, really seriously. I mean, um, you know, the company, you know, as soon as Israeli company, um, you know, Wars going on, you know, um, and, and people are shooting missiles over there and you’re like, holy crap. I mean, is my equity that I just, you know, sold my company for going to be real. I mean, you know, it’s, this company is doing unbelievable.

Is it all real, you know, Microsoft comes out and says, they’re going to win security. And the stock drops, you know, you know, uh, Yeah.

75% and I’m like, oh Jesus, I think I just need to sell a bunch to make sure my kids can go to college. And, you know, so, you know, I got out, you know, I got, I mean, I took the conservative route and then the stock rallied and it was, you know, one of the darlings of all, I mean, of all, uh, um, You know, software and, you know, Gil became the first billionaire and he’s on the Forbes list.

And because he believed right. I mean, he fundamentally believed in it and was willing to go through the good and the bad times. And, and I did, and I, I th I chickened out early on and, um, I mean, it was a really valuable lesson and, and thankfully I got a second bite at the apple, you know, with, with apple, with Avalara.

So you’re, you know, a lot smarter and why. You know, having gone, gone, gone through the whole programs, but, but it was, it was an interesting.

Andrew: All right. Avalara. The idea came to who, from where.

Scott: So I’m, I’m a checkpoint and I’m thinking that, you know, it’s about time for me to, you know, move on to do something else and, and figure out what we’re going to do again, although I just loved it and, but it was just, it was just time to go on it. My partner, um, you know, uh, Jared, the guy, we fired the guy, we did all this stuff with.

I mean, he was like, he was like, Billy, you know, the billion, all the jokes that you tell. I mean, Billy was like knocking on my door. Hey, Scott, come out and play, come out and play because he’d left checkpoint, he’d left the company. He was on his own and he wanted to go do something else. And he was always constantly saying, let’s go do something.

Come on, Scott, come on. Let’s

go out.

Andrew: course, the guy who came up with the internet idea back when no one else believed in the internet is going to keep coming up with new ideas. All right. So he’s coming to you. What’s give me an example of one of his past ideas that you didn’t pursue together.

Scott: You know, I mean, uh, I, I listed that would be hard to, that would be hard to, that would be hard to do. I mean, we’ve got, I mean, you know, he’s got just tons of ideas about, you know, all, all sorts. I mean, just all sorts of things really. And, and, and he’s always saying, Hey, we should go do this, or we should go do that.

And, you know, early on, you know, cause I have always said, cause I’d always get asked the question, like what’s the next big thing.

Andrew: Okay.

Scott: You know, and, and, and I mean, I don’t think you think two seconds about what the next big thing is because I got to solve the problems I got in front of me, but so I went the chair and I’m like, what’s the next big thing?

And this was back in the day. And he’s like, you know, you know, everybody’s talking about, you know, uh, you know, the automation, I mean, driving automation and you know, all those kinds of things, but he’s like, you know, I think cryptocurrency, you mean,

he

said, I think that, oh, this was a long time

ago.

Andrew: Bitcoin.

Scott: Yeah, well, just,

just, just right at that.

Right. You know, right. Said, I just think, you know, that this is going to be a revolution and, you know, we should invest in it early on because it’s going to be like a railroad company. You know, you always hear those people that had the stock certificates, you know, they show up, you know, in some trunk and, and, and like you said, that’s what it is.

We’re just going to invest in it. And so he’s created a business. And, and, and early on, you know, so that’s the kind of thing

that, you know, that

Andrew: that he created? I didn’t see that. What’s the cryptocurrency business you created.

Scott: Well, I mean, we, we, we, I mean, we had lots of ideas around it and we just had a general, a

Andrew: Oh, got it. It wasn’t that he created anything. He was just, he wanted to come up with a business idea for

Scott: We we created, you know, we, we created some, some products and then we were helping a bunch of people because we were pretty, we had, you know, a partner, those pretty expert in the whole area.

And so, you know, we would Do projects for them. We would get paid in cryptocurrency and, um, you know, it, it was really, it was just, it was a fun, it was just fun. It was fun to do,

Andrew: Do you actually now have like the equivalent of those old stock certificates somewhere where like you’ve got a Bitcoin USB thumb drive or something.

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Some someplace somewhere, you know, we, we, yeah. Someplace, somewhere, Jared has it all, all, all, all

Andrew: Way to go, Jerry, this is Jared vote.

Scott: Yeah, it is vote. Jared vote.

Andrew: Jared vote. Okay. So he had the idea for this. Am I right?

Scott: So, so Jared came to me and he said, Scott, I met this guy and we live on a place called Baber Jilin outside of Seattle. And he goes, I met this person and he came up to me and he said, I got this idea and it’s sales tax automation. And he listened to Rory, Rory Rawlings was the guy. And he, you know, this is a lot, like, you can see a pattern here.

This is a lot like the doctor.

Andrew: Okay.

Scott: And the life cycle, it says, I got this idea. I don’t know what to do with it. Um, you guys, you know, how would you help? Would you help me? And we said, Yeah. sure. We’ll help you. And he said, but you got to talk to Scott. And Jared went off to London and you know, for the holidays and I meet with him over the, you know, over Thanksgiving and, and, uh, Roy tells me a thing and I’m like, oh my God, this is an unbelievable idea.

Unbelievable. We can take this and make it huge.

Andrew: What did, what was the idea? What was the kernel of the idea that

Scott: so the kernel of the idea is this, I mean, here it looks at its basic level sales tax is the last thing to be automated in the magic moment of commerce. I mean, when you say buy, you know, you know, you do fraud, you know, you do, you know, payment processing fraud, you do freight, you do all these things.

And huge businesses have been built around all of the magic moment of commerce. The only thing that had never been solved, what, what, in this magic moment was the man getting paid, you know, the government getting its due. And, and so Rory had this idea that you could use. What we now call the cloud. What we now call SAS to build out an engine that would calculate store the information to the calculation, and then do the reporting and remittance back to the state.

Essentially what it is. And so think about this sales tax was, was thought of 5,000 years ago by the objections our company was, our country was founded on a sales tax dispute, and nobody had solved this problem because it was a technical problem. It was a technical problem, not a sales tax problem. It had to be automated in the moment because sales tax is transactional, unlike payroll or something like that, that can happen in batch sales tax has to happen.

You know, when you’re on the phone, when you’re at an E you know, on a website, you know, e-commerce. Whether you’re checking out, you know, on a POS it has to be time and people won’t wait around For it. So it required broadband internet to come along and with broadband internet, we could calculate sales tax in real time behind the scenes and, and hand you the, the correct amount or hand the, uh, uh, accounting packages, the correct amount.

Um, and, and people would pay it and move on

Andrew: For whom, because this is 2004 where the idea originated, I think right. Amazon was not collecting sales tax nationwide back then.

Scott: No, but all businesses had to Andrew see all businesses, weather? weather, weather might, whether Amazon collects it or not. I mean, you’re responsible for it. You go to jail. If you don’t collect sales

Andrew: But who did you, but, but if Amazon didn’t see the need to do it, Shopify stores didn’t exist, but all those local merchants, they certainly didn’t see the need. Who did you see and say they are going to need us. It was bigger customers. Who are they?

Scott: So look at everybody has to pay. If you had a physical presence in a state, you ma you had to collect sales tax. So, I mean, any company that you went in and bought groceries from, or hardware, or you bought shoes or whatever you had to pay sales

Andrew: But only if you’re right, if you’re selling locally, your system, your register handles it for

you, but who did you imagine your first customers would be for

Scott: So, so the biggest customers, you know, if you’re a Walmart, you have customers in all 50 states. I mean, you know, so if you’re selling, you know, in multiple states, you, you had physical and had physical presence, you had to collect.

Andrew: And this was when they were selling online or selling in stores

Scott: in stores

Andrew: in stores And how were

Scott: salespeople or with salespeople, they would, they would do it manually. They would do this all manually. So all accounting packages, I mean.

uh, deal with sales tax manually. So, you know, you put in your own rates, you know, you put in all of this stuff that you have to do, and you’re typing that all in manually.

And then when you create an invoice, it.

tells the accounting package how to, to calculate the sales tax.

Andrew: Got it. Uh, but for, for Walmart, there was no invoice. It was just a register. Someone put that number into the register and that wasn’t an issue that they said, I wish somebody would create software in the cloud that would solve for us.

Scott: But if you had Salesforce, if you had a Salesforce, that was, it mean going out and selling, like if you’re selling anything right. Software, you know, you went out there, you, you know, you send an invoice to that company to pay sale. You had to pay sales tax, right? So their businesses all over are paying sales

Andrew: And then how were they doing it when they were selling, uh, on their own, where they quit looking it up in a book somewhere.

Scott: No, they were doing it all. They were looking it up in their book, entering it into their accounting package. And then, and then the accounting package took that information and, and, uh, and created the right invoice with the right rate, with the right tax.

Andrew: And this is kind of like exercising where you said your dad doesn’t believe that hotels need, uh, need a workout room. Other people don’t believe in it. We sell only nine of these, but I know the world is going to eventually realize that this is good for them. And it’s the right thing to do. And they’re going to do it.

Scott: I mean, but think about this, Right.

I mean, think about it in a digital world, the concept of calculating sales tax manually, and then, and then the government coming like they do in Robin hood, you know, with the, you know, the sheriff of Nottingham comes and knocks on your door and says, pay me, my money is absurd in a digital world.

It’s all going to be automated.

Andrew: Of course, I just, th I, I think I had this vision back then, when you started that the internet companies were going to win the war against sales tax collected outside of the city that they were in that Amazon’s ploy was to say, we are located in Seattle. This is where we pay taxes. Congratulations to all the people who live outside of here.

You don’t pay taxes because it’s not a responsibility. I thought they were going to win that argument. And it seems like you’re saying even if they would have won that argument, there are a lot of other businesses that were in a different situation and weren’t going to win it. And probably Amazon was going to lose that.

And you are right on all counts. Am I, am I guessing

Scott: I think that that’s a look at all businesses have this problem. So there was a big thing beyond Amazon, Amazon stuck it out as long as they could, but it’s a losing battle. It’s just unfair, right?

I mean, it’s unfair to brick and mortar stores, cooler heads. We’re going to prevail. I mean, everybody was going to be on a level playing at a level playing field.

And, and so we did see that and we, and we believe that technology would actually compensate. You know, this is because they wouldn’t have, I mean, they don’t have liability, you know, they don’t, you know, they have to spend all that extra time to do it, all this stuff, this meaningless, it doesn’t help their business.

Andrew: Yeah, no, no

Scott: we would

take that.

Andrew: the accountant will freak you out. My accountant said you, if you’re, if you have to pay sales tax and you’re not paying it, like you said, it’s jail. This is not a small thing. Like I forgot. Okay. I’m with you on it. You like the idea, what was the next step that you took in order to get it off the ground?

To get it out of say Rory’s daughter’s bedroom into Jared’s garage. What was that next evolution?

Scott: So, so what we did is we rallied the re rallied the troops because of our experience with checkpoint and selling the company. I mean, we had, I had a built in group of people that were like loyal followers to the, you know, to the cause. So we knocked on their door and said, Hey, come back. We got this great idea.

And, and so we’re like, but we can’t pay you, so you have to work for free for the first year. Um, and so everybody’s like, Okay.

I’m in. Um, and, and, and, and that’s really what we did. So we got an office, we, we took Rory’s idea. We started the, build it out, you know, um, you know, Rory was really amazing, cause he’s like a 10 X developer, you know, those kinds of people that can, you know, see something and then make it happen and we could get it out there.

And, and, and we created something that. I mean, I, I think, I think it was really unique and the way I talk about it now is, you know, everybody talks about minimally viable products, right? You just got to get it out into the market. And, and I think we did a good job of being a, uh, a, a, a minimally viable product.

But I’ve coined this phrase afterwards that it’s not enough to be minimally viable. You have to be emotionally viable. And so when we talk to businesses about easing their burden on sales tax, they’re like, damn, I’m in, I mean, you know, they were rooting for us to, to

succeed

Andrew: still painful

Scott: it because it was so painful.

Andrew: Can, can you give me an example of a business that was that excited that they would have been willing to be one of your first customers before everything was just right.

Scott: You know, w the way, I mean, we all answered that question is, is what we were skeptical. Like you, like, you were a little bit, you know, when Rory came to us. And so we said, Okay.

you know, Jared, and I said, we’ll give you the money, but we want to Dole it out. And we want to, you know, we want to research this a little bit more.

And so we would go out to businesses and we would say, Hey, we want to talk to you about sales tax and we’ll be talking to the owner and they’re like, oh, not really a problem. Not, not really. I mean, it’s, we got it. And then we say, well, could we ask your controller? And so the controller would come in and the, and the, and the, and the controller would go.

Oh, my God, this is the hardest thing on earth. And so there was this disconnect between, you know, the business owner and the people actually having to do the work. And we’re like, Okay.

I mean, we’re onto it. And we just heard this story time and time

again.

Andrew: of a business that, what did they do then? That was it. Bed had a controller that was into this.

Scott: So, I mean, one of the first companies that we did, um, uh, they were, uh, uh, an online purveyor and they had, they set out gift baskets. And so they sent out gift baskets and it’s famous and it’s, it’s huge, you know, they, they sell it all over the place and you go online and you buy, Hey, I want this one, but in a gift basket, Everything is taxed differently

Cheese is taxed differently than a jar that’s taxed different than this. And so it was a nightmare, right.

I mean, everything, every light cut, every amount in that, in that, um, basket had to be, you know, had to be taxed differently and, and, and we were able to solve that problem for them.

Andrew: Got it. All right. I see that. All right. So now you have the

Scott: I mean, think about it. Think about another one. Cause people don’t really talk about this one. You’re going to buy a. You know, back in the day, if you have physical presence, you, you, um, you have tax right. A sports team, a sports team has 50 as 50 different players And they all live in different states. So now

you, of course, because physical presence, your, your, your, your employees are living in different places.

And so when you go online to buy a hat or a Jersey or a shirt, Because they have nexus in all 50 states, they have to know all the different, different rules. And in the United States, there’s 12 over 12,000 taxing jurisdictions in the United States, 12,000. I mean, think about that. A company that’s selling all over the United States has to know 12,000 different taxing their rates.

Andrew: Okay. I’m now seeing why there’s so much excitement for it. I wonder who the first customer is, but before I get into that and then figure out what the first version looked like. Let me just say my first sponsor and my only sponsor for this episode is hosting. Scott. If I always like in these HostGator ads to ask if you were starting today, let’s say maybe even as a teenager, what idea would you have that if I gave you a HostGator website, you would start launching on, on that site.

Do you have an idea that’s rattling around your head or direction that you’d go in?

Scott: Wow. I mean, there there’s, um, There are, there are so many, there’s so many ideas that you can come up with. And, and, and I don’t have one that I would say, you know, if I were going to do it, you know, right now, um, I I’m invested in some really unique, unbelievable, you know, areas. I think Like uh, how, I mean, one is one is how do you preserve fruit longer?

Andrew: Uh, yes.

Scott: know, so you can get strawberries 90 days, you know, later in the cycle. And, and, and,

and

I mean,

Andrew: preserve it longer?

Scott: there there’s, there’s ways of you can, you know, using, you know, special packing methods and, and, and,

uh,

Andrew: seen. Plant-based packaging seems like, or like a, a film around the fruit that’s plant-based is that the direction they’re going in?

Scott: No. I mean, that’s what I think this is more containerized, right? So when they’re shipping it.

out of south America, you know, and out of China or to China, or, you know, all the different places that the, that the way that they ship them, you know, will actually preserve, you know, the fruit longer. So, I mean, there’s just fantastic ideas, but what I like about these kinds of ideas, if you’re going to have an idea.

Have an idea that impacts the world, right? I mean that really, if you’re going to go to all the trouble of doing a startup and you do something mean have an idea that really you can really make a huge difference. That’s what I tell everybody, because the amount of work that you have to do for a big idea and a small idea, just about the same.

Andrew: All right, listen up everyone. Whether you’re, whether you’ve got your idea now, or you’re about to be hit with, HostGator’s got you covered. They’ll host your website, right? They’ll do it inexpensively. And dependably, they’ve been doing it for me for years and I highly recommend them. I saved a lot of money by switching over to HostGator and the site works great.

All you have to do, if you want to get started is not just go to hostgator.com, but if you use my URL. You’re going to get their absolute lowest price. And I know because Scott, I said that in a past episode and some of my audience found it like two or 3 cents cheaper a month, somewhere else, I emailed HostGator.

They said, all right, well drop your price too. So here it is hostgator.com/mixergy two or 3 cents cheaper than any other location. If you sign up using my URL, hostgator.com/mixergy. All right. What did, what did that first version look like? What were you able to. Okay.

Scott: You, you know, we were able to do basic calculations, mean basic calculations and tie them into your accounting system. So, I mean, our, we can’t go to market. On our own. We have to go to market with the people who create invoices. So your accounting packages, your, your webs, I mean, your, uh, your, your e-commerce sites, your POS sites.

So we had to go to, to market, and we did this with Microsoft called Microsoft great Plains. That was our, that was our first entree into the marketplace.

Andrew: Okay. And what did the, so the software did that ha how many customers did you launch with.

Scott: Um, so we, we had this, uh, we had a consultant that was helping us do this whole thing and coming up with our idea because we were one of the first SAS companies, you know, we didn’t even, it wasn’t a SAS, wasn’t even a world. It was a recurring revenue model. And, and we wanted to be a little bit Different And in our world accountants and people who?

are doing accounting packages was where we were. And so they suggested Scott, you’ve got to go to this, this Microsoft show called convergence and it’s in Orlando. And it’s where all the people who are using Microsoft great Plains come together for one, you know, one, Uh event.

Damn, we’re in, let’s go. And, and we said, well, how are we going to be different? Because we want it to be different by design. I mean, really, we wanted to be the way the norm, the way the norm was happening. We were different because it was a SAS recurring revenue model. We were different because we were using the internet as a cloud-based solution.

We were different because, um, Uh you know, we, I mean, we thought we thought of ourselves as, you know, sort of counterculture to the whole. Accounting world. And so we’re, so with all that in mind, the consultant came back and said, look it, you can do a Zen desk. I mean, a Zen zone where people can get massages at your trade show booth.

Cause we had a booth and you can do it there. And I’m like, ah, I don’t think that’s really right. He said, but you know, had Mr. Margarita come over to my kid’s birthday party and I’m like, Larry. I mean you’re only 40. I mean, I mean, your kids can’t be old enough to have Mr. Margarita come by and he’s like, oh no, no, it was a, it was a Virgin Mar margarita, but he came with a Tiki hut. And so I’m like we are in, so we took Mr.

Margarita and invited him to the Orlando convention center and, and, and we had a Tiki hut and we started handing out Margarita’s to all the people who came into the trade show.

Andrew: Alcohol.

Scott: I think it’s illegal, to be honest with you.

Um, I think

Andrew: it anyway.

Scott: we did it anyways

Andrew: Cut. And

by the way, I don’t know Microsoft great Plains. It’s like a pretty buttoned up accounting software. Am I right?

Scott: Yeah, I mean, it was started in North Dakota by a guy named Doug Burgum and it was sold to Microsoft and, and so, um, but anyways it, yeah, it’s, uh,

Andrew: Yeah, this does not seem like the kind of crowd that is expecting a margarita maker with alcohol. Got it. And so of course you were making a splash there.

Scott: So we walk in and I mean, we’re the luckiest company on earth because when we went to the trade show, somebody had dropped out of a booth. They said, Hey, we don’t want the booth. And they said, Hey, w Avalara, would you like the booth? Cause we’re back in the north 40, you know, in the, in the thing and this door, this one that we got.

Was the first booth that you came to when you walked in the trade show. And so the first booth you’d come in to watch trade show a Tiki hut. We had a talking parrot, robotic parrot mean you walked into this thing with the, with margaritas, everybody’s in orange and it’s the first booth he walked into the line was out the, was out the convention center.

Um, we called, you know, then we took everybody’s name down and I would. You know, then back cause I was, you know, doing the, on the phone at the time and then. Um, I’d say, Hey, this is Scott McFarlane. I’m from Avalara. You know, you came by our booth. We’d like to talk to you love about sales tax. And they’re like, have a, what?

I mean, who, who are you? And we’re like, well, you came by our booth, the Tiki hut, you know? Um, oh my God, you guys are the coolest company that’s ever been. And, and so. It became our, our, our culture. I mean, we were surrounded around this concept of, Uh,

of the Tiki hut being fun. You know, Microsoft loved us because, you know, the people really dig our booth and, and, and, you know, we were, you know, helping them with their image.

And so it was really, I mean, it was really great. We didn’t sell hardly anything at all. I think we sold five customers the first year. Um, you know, as we, as we, as we did it, uh, and I think. Um, I, Yeah.

a bunch of them are still our customers today, 17 years later. And so, and so it just started growing from there.

Nobody, nobody would tell us that idea’s bad. I mean, you know, the idea is great. Go for it. You may, maybe we’re not really ready for it now. W we just kept getting enough customers, enough partners, enough people, and then we just kept raising money. And, and, uh, today it’s now it’s that, that company that we’re talking about,

Andrew: And one of the ways you mentioned partnerships a lot, one of the ways that you get customers is you partner with the software vendors that they’re already using to send out invoices like Microsoft, great Plains. People are using it to send out invoices instead of them personally, calculating the, um, the sales tax, your plugin automatically does it, uh, you didn’t have a partnership with Microsoft.

You just built an integration. Was the first partnership. Was it Sage? Was it Epicor? Who was

Scott: it? was Sage and Epicor, Sage and Epicor were the first two people that said, Okay.

we’re going to build you in as our tax module. Um, and so when somebody says they have a sales tax problem, they say, okay.

we’re going to sell you. You know, the Avalara, you know, uh, what the Avalara module they called it, you know, Epicore tax module or Sage tax module.

That’s that’s how it was. And today we have a thousand partnerships that are like that.

Andrew: How do you get a deal like that in the early days? Is it, I guess they need you, but are they, is it a big money thing? Is it about if I could, if you could give them a big percentage of your share of your sales, then they’re going to say yes.

Scott: Yeah.

we, we had this idea that, you know, if we build it, they will come. And it didn’t really, it actually actually happened that way. We, we built it and they came very, very slowly, but we were able to work with them because I mean, people started to realize the tax was a thing. Right. And our whole thing.

Look at sales tax is going to go the way payroll tax went. Right? Because payroll has been automated. People used to do it themselves in their companies. ADP comes along, Paychex comes along, you know, pay, you know, I mean, they, they, that just, that just happened. And we’re saying, look, it we’re in the early days.

Of the same kind of revolution and, and, and, and it took us a while to get, you know, the Epicor is in the stages, but I think that they were all in, in, in sync on it. And then we started sharing revenue with them. That was our model was sharing revenue with the people who created invoices. We’re doing a good job for the customers.

Everybody is going to be a winner on this program and, and, and we just kept getting, you know, getting more customers and more business and, and, uh, just fighting through it.

Andrew: Scott as we’re talking and I know we’re coming close to the end here. Everything sounds so exciting that you could see I’m getting fired up about your story. You told our producer that there was, there were times when you were so full of doubt that you would literally in tears when in this things company history, did you get to that?

And what brought you there?

Scott: You know, it’s so looking, the pressure of starting a company, you know, is, is great. And you know, it doesn’t always, I mean, it doesn’t always go the way you think it’s going to go. I mean, you know, you, you. You get going on it, you know, your cause is righteous. I mean, listen, we knew when we started this business, we knew for a fact, if we executed sales tax automation was inevitable.

And so we know what the end game is. Um, but along the way, you run into things like, okay, I don’t have enough money to make payroll tomorrow. You know? I

Andrew: didn’t

Scott: what was that?

Andrew: you literally got close to not being able to make payroll.

Scott: We did,

Andrew: You did. What was it, what was it about that period in your company’s history that made that happen? What was going on then?

Scott: You know, we, we had, uh, we had a program like today it’s just so different, right? The, the VCs, and you can go out and raise big bucks at big valuations. And the, like, we were not that fortunate. Right? I mean, so Jared and I put in our own money, you know, our parents put in money, our friends put in. You know, when it was all said and done, I think we raised $30 million for friends and family, But it’s just stressful to be, you know, to have all your friends and family invested in the company.

It’s stressful to always have to go out and get the money because, you know, we didn’t, we didn’t really want the pressure of a VC, you know, telling us what to do in the beginning. And, and then once we got into the VC world, And you started to get more money, you know, how you get almost, you get too big to fail.

And so the pressure is different, right? The pressure to

Andrew: But what was it? Was it that you weren’t growing fast enough? Was it that you were spending a lot on, uh, on, on partnerships or what led you to a place where you were even worried about being able to pay back

Scott: you know, if you look at all the, if you look at SAS companies today, most of them aren’t profitable. And so, and so the fastest growing people, the fastest growing businesses, Um, you know, struggle to, to, um, have capital. So what I mean by that is in the SAS world, you are selling. A a, a, a service, and then you are getting the money ratably over the 12, the 12 months of that, of that year.

So, you know, you, you’re selling a lot and you’re getting a lot, but the faster you grow, you’re actually losing money because it takes you way more money to get customers. Then they’re,

Andrew: Ah, that’s what it is. It was spending money to get customers and the biggest expense for getting customers was what was

Scott: Sales and Mar sales, sales, sales, and marketing, and, and, uh, and the light, right? I mean, all the things, you know, that go into, you know, cost of acquisition. and so the cost of acquisition is real. It takes you like two years to pay back, you know, your cost of acquisition through the revenue that

you get. But if they

Andrew: for acquisition was what was your source of acquisition? That was costing so

much

money.

Scott: of acquisition, you

Andrew: I’m sorry,

Scott: came from salespeople, it would come from, you know, your, your marketing expenses, you know, uh, you know, the go live, you know, the go live expenses. And so let’s hypothetically, let’s just say it cost you $15,000 to get a customer. And they’re, and they’re, and they’re paying you $7,000 a year.

It takes you two years. Pay that back, but if they stay with you for 17 years, then everything after the second year is all profit. So the faster you grow, the more money. it? takes to grow and you go, you know, in the, in the, in the holes. So, um, but, but you’re building an enormous revenue stream. You’re building an enormous annuity base that recurs every single year.

That’s why the recurring revenue model works so well.

Andrew: And is that still true to this day? I think your net income is still is still negative, right?

Scott: It is, it is to

this day

Andrew: of expenses on marketing.

Scott: and sales and, and, and all, you know, just, just running, you know, just running the business. And so me in a growth period, like, you know, we just reported, we had growth of 45%, you know, last, last quarter. I mean, that kind of growth is, is expensive and, and, and you get a hall pass on it because if, as long as your churn stays really, really low, it’s just, it’s just, uh, it’s just compounding it’s compounding.

So anyways, I mean, that’s what we were able to, to, to demonstrate that’s what we were able to show. And, and we were able to raise the money that we, you know, that we’ve done today build the business.

Andrew: And now you’re a $50 million company, 15 billion, excuse me, $15 billion company. And, uh, and the stock just keeps going up from what I can see here. Let me close this out with just one. I didn’t even know how to fit this story in from your dad. There was a canoe experience.

Can we call it? I’m fascinated by your, by your dad?

He seems amazing.

Scott: He was, I mean, he was a great role model. He was a great role model for, for me. And, and, um, I think I told your producer this story and, and I think it’s one of the things that defining the signing things in my life. Um, my dad had done this a hundred mile canoe trip and he did it when he was like 18 years old with a group of people.

And, you know, I always looked up to my dad and I wanted to do whatever he did. Right. I just wanted to be like that. And, and, uh, I, so when I was, I think, 14 or 15. I mean, I convinced him to, that we wanted to do it. And so with my cousin who was the same age, you know, he dropped us off in this remote. I mean, remote, I mean, really, I can’t explain to you how remote this is.

I mean, there’s just nobody around in Canada, Northern Canada and, um, and uh, he dropped us off and he said, okay, in 10 days, we’re going to pick you up over here a hundred miles from here. Um, and, and, Uh He dropped us off by boat. Um, there was no cell phones, no phones, no people mean, you know, more bears around, you know, where we were then than humans.

And, and we did a series of lakes, you know, over this hundred miles. And so you can, uh, you know, canoe maybe, you know, 10 miles and then you’d have to carry your canoe to the next place. And there was no trails or paths. You, you know, you had to use a compass and a map and my head dropped us off. I don’t know what they were thinking.

They would go to jail today. They would go to

Andrew: If they would go to jail for just sending their kids to the grocery store by themselves, I feel.

Scott: And, and it was like, we were so scared that we double time the trip. Right. So where we were supposed to, you know, have lunch, you know, I mean, we’re, we’re supposed to, you know, be asleep at the night we had lunch. And so we were twice as fast then. And then, you know, uh, we ended up getting done with the trip way early.

And so now we had to wait five days so we could, So we canoed home,

Andrew: Wow. So what do you take away from that experience? What I take away from it is here’s a person who sees what you’re interested in and is going to put aside his personal fear to let you go do it and to make you better than most parents would even feel comfortable allowing their kids to be.

Scott: Yeah, I can’t, I really can’t. I never really had the opportunity to, because my dad’s passed away to ask him what they were thinking. Why, why did he, why did he do do that? Because to him, I think it was only natural. I mean, I don’t think he was doing anything that he thought. Was was unnatural. He thought we were ready to do it.

And that’s what I take away from it. My dad had great confidence in, in, in, in my, and you know, my upbringing in the, in the, in the, in the confidence to, you know, go out and to be.

able to solve the problems along the way. Okay.

And, and, um, I, you know, for that, I’m always grateful because, you know, I mean, you just can’t have fear run your life.

I mean, we were scared the whole time, you know, I mean, really, you know, so scared because we lost our canoe on one of the poor Taj’s and I mean, you know what I mean? We just did all the dumb things that you can do, right. But, but I think that it, you have to overcome fear. You know, you have to be looking for adventure, wherever you can find it, you know, stories and things that you can tell people and that you can, you know, relate to people with.

I think all of those things are mixed up, but my dad said one time. You know, should I go to business school? And he said, son, you don’t need to go to business school. I can teach you in 15 minutes, what you need to know for the rest of your life and business. But I can’t teach you how to do is be an interesting person.

But I can’t teach you is, is, is to have, you know, the desire to be, you know, to be better and to, you know, to, to do it. So go get a liberal arts education, go, you know, go learn, you know, go learn the classes. No go go. You’ll figure out, you know, economics. So you can talk that anybody he said, that’s the key to success is being able to relate to people and you should do everything in your power to be able to relate to them.

So I’ve been on a journey of just getting as many moments, as many, uh, you know, adventures is I, you know, as I possibly can, because along the way, you know, you learn how to relate to people.

Andrew: Man. I, I felt that from you right from the beginning. I don’t know what it was, the camera wasn’t on. I wasn’t able to see you, but I felt I I’m digging this dude. And I really appreciate you. Scott being here, the website is avalara.com and frankly, they don’t even need to be on your website. It’s just integrated into what they’re already using.

Scott: Yep. It is, it is, you know, we’re going to do, I don’t know, billions and billions and billions of billions of transactions this year. So it’s a, you know, if you need help with, uh, you know, automating a, you know, a real pain in the butt for. ya, I mean, Avalara is your Evelyn is your solution. So it’s pretty cool.

Thanks for, thanks for having me on your, I enjoy it. I enjoy this. I enjoy this.

Andrew: Thank you for being on here. Thank you everyone for listening. Bye

everyone.

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