You know, music from hip hop–music that he wrote–and it’s one of many sites that he built. I invited him here because I want to find out how he did it.
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Hey there freedom fighters, my name is Andrew Warner, I’m the founder of mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart. Have you ever heard of a profitable business that sells beats? Beats, you know, the stuff that’s like the music in hip hop. Well we’re about to discover how big a business can get when it sells beats. Jamie Lewis is the founder of Champ Entertainment, and his sites include Beats365, which lets you download unlimited music that he wrote for . . . you know what, this is the worst intro, I’m going to do it again without just reading it, I’m going to say this. [??] . . .
Jamie: Yeah [??]
Andrew: This is awful, and I’m watching you the whole time too, which means I’m getting in my head. Here is the intro. Jamie Lewis apparently built a very profitable business selling beats, you know, music from hip hop, music that he wrote, and it’s one of many sites that he built. I invited him here because I want to find out how he did it, and because partially I was too lazy to just read jamielewis.com, where apparently he talks all about that. Jamie, welcome to Mixergy.
Jamie: Thank you very much. It’s good to be here.
Andrew: So, I see the kinds of money that we’re going to be talking about in this interview, because you did a pre-interview with our producer, and because we did our research here. But I’m looking over your shoulder, and I’m saying to myself, this is where the guy who makes millions of dollars lives? I don’t see luxury. I just see a regular home. What’s up with that?
Jamie: Well, a lot of people think that this is my living room, it’s actually a renovated bedroom turned into a studio. It’s not the office, it’s a studio, and a lot of my musical peers, I guess you’d call them, you know, music producers, they tell me, they say, what on earth, you do all of your music in there, and you know, with these tools, and it’s kind of like a . . . I would say to them, it’s not the, you know, million dollar mixing boards and, you know, all of this, you know, technology that makes this good sounding stuff, it’s knowing how to use the stuff that you already have, you know. I was doing . . .
Andrew: Are you saying you’re basically doing this whole business out of a house, in a T-shirt with a collar that’s just a little bit ripped, it doesn’t seem like the million dollar enterprise that we’re about to be doing an interview about.
Jamie: Well, look at Mark Zuckerberg, look at what they wear in there, you know, and we’re supposed to be investing all of our money in there. That’s another, you know, subject altogether. Can I say things like that on here?
Andrew: You can say whatever you want, you can curse.
Jamie: All right, let’s do this.
Andrew: Oh, you know what, let’s not even tease this. Let’s just get right down to it.
Jamie: All right.
Andrew: How much revenue did you make just from selling beats?
Jamie: How much gross revenue?
Jamie: Just from selling beats, maybe upwards of nine hundred thousand.
Andrew: Oh, nine hundred thousand from selling the music itself. And where did this . . .
Jamie: From selling the music itself, but it’s a combination of not only the beats, but I also did relaxing music.
Jamie: Which I know sounds funny, but that was the process that I went through when I was first starting to sell my stuff online, was okay, my stuff without lyrics, instrumentals sells. When I put lyrics on it, those markets that are buying the instrumentals, they can’t use stuff with lyrics on them, and that goes for stock music, relaxing music, and hip hop music . . .
Andrew: Okay, now . . .
Jamie: . . . which are all in instrumental industries.
Jamie: So once I saw that my instrumentals were like, you know, in demand, I was like, well, what other types of instrumental music can I do. And so . . .
Andrew: I see. So we’re talking about gross $900,000 selling music that you yourself created. Where is the millions? I’m looking here at my notes and I see millions a few times, where does the big money come from then?
Jamie: Well I got over 20 sites since 2004 and between 2004 and 2007 I’d say, I did about 20 sites that are all in the music industry. The beats itself, like Beats365, the gross revenue from 2004 till now it’s upwards of about 9000.
Jamie: That’s before affiliates. And as you know I have to give a lot of the money to affiliates, but then after that, those net profits, then you have a list where you’re able to, you know… There’s a lot more potential for monetization.
Andrew: So break it down for me.
Jamie: With your customers that are already your fans who are in to what you, it’s the same thing as any record label, they’re going to continue to buy stuff from you, I have people like that… There’s all sorts of different potentials to work with people, like for instance a customer will purchase my beats and do his own school with my material and so therefore he purchased a license from me, so there’s… It’s a little bit more… I’m probably always understating too…
Andrew: What you’re saying is you get 900$ in revenue but you’re also collected the customer information so you can sell them your other products? Right?
Jamie: Yeah, I mean it’s just the same thing as any other, you know it’s like, the revenue so far like in since 2004 all of it together music lessons, drum lessons, guitar lessons, that was huge in guitar lessons just because, not… Because I’m a better drummer than a guitarist, but the guitar lessons niche is gigantic and that’s why I made more money from that. So it’s upwards of ten million dollars, eleven million dollars by now. I know it’s documented nine million something up until 2012 and of course 2013 just start off. So yeah…
Andrew: Alright, so sorry to interrupt, but I’m looking over your shoulder then, this is just a… This isn’t the best stuff you bought. How’s your lifestyle been improved because of all this money? We don’t need to be hung up on money, I’m going to get to the story, but I got to ask.
Jamie: Yeah, it hasn’t, it’s more money, more problems. Because what happened was in 2009 I started to teach the stuff, and then things entirely changed, because you feel a really deep obligation to the people who are purchasing, you know… The online business teaching it, it’s much different than putting up your music for sale for five years.
Andrew: You’re saying, teaching people how to build businesses like yours, has a lot of responsibility. So in addition to selling beats and selling courses on how to play music like the guitar, how to play instruments. You’re now also teaching people how to build their own businesses, and that’s the part that feels like it’s a lot of responsibility.
Jamie: It’s doesn’t feel like it’s a lot of responsibility, it is a lot of responsibility. Especially like in our situation with the economy and everything, people are just downright desperate, you know, for you know… it’s a… It’s like the type of thing where I’m on doing classes, and they end up, you know, two dollars a class, and you know I’m on there for two/three hours teaching people, you know, how to build a business and usually the theme usually revolves around what they’re already doing, and you know if they do pottery, then they build a business in pottery. Do you see what I’m saying? So it’s pretty easy to do it but at the same time people will… you know, the two dollars it’s still really important to people.
In music you wouldn’t see that. People would purchase your CD and, I can sell package of beats for 30$ and it’s like a thousand of my beats, and then people are like, oh that’s freaking awesome, and I never have any contact with them other than them email me and thanking me. But with online business it’s like someone will sign up for two dollars and, one, two, three, four, all of these different challenges that you’re confronted with, you know.
Andrew: I see, right. They’re a little more skeptical.
Jamie: It’s totally different, and what it does, it consumes, it consumes what you do, and so right now I have a really awesome product down on the market now it’s called Mega Music Maker. So I make beats with it, I upload those demos to YouTube, they get 10.000 views and all these positive comments. And the most positive comment is liked 20 times, so I know it’s freaking awesome. The thing is I don’t have a… I could blow that product up right now, but do I have the time to do that? You had time to bring it to that level where I brought Sonic Producer, for instance.
Andrew: I’m going to come back to this teaching other people how to build businesses online, and frankly, I’m going to be a little skeptical about this. Maybe not.
Andrew: I’m going to be skeptical about it when we talk about that, too. And I know you’re willing to answer the tough questions, so we’ll get into that. I also want to come back and ask you about so much. Let’s see how you even got here. You started off by working at something called Elias [SP]. What is Elias?
Jamie: Elias was like the Rolls Royce of the music houses that create music for commercials on TV, like the Budweiser frogs. Super bowl commercials. In Manhattan – Manhattan is the nerve-city, for people that don’t know – in New York City, around 21st Street in Chelsea, around that area, Fifth Avenue and 21st Street. All they are right there – well, there’s a lot more – there’s tons of advertising agencies. And then, all of the music houses are in that area, too, because they do the tapes; they shuttle tapes back and forth. If you want to go to Manhattan as a music producer, the one thing I saw when I moved back down to Manhattan after spending 2 years in Connecticut – the first thing you do as a producer, right, you don’t know anyone. The first thing you try to do is get a job. Try to get a job producing music, ’cause that’s what you love to do.
I started to scour the Yellow Pages, and everything like that. I got into – what was the first thing I did – I found out about all these places. I was, like, oh, the music houses – these are the places I need to get a job at. So I started sending my reel everywhere. A couple of them called me back and were, like, your reel is awesome, because my reel was kind of unique. It had, like, Claymation movies and stuff on it. And so a couple of people were, like, that’s really unique. I went into a couple of the smaller ones and met with them, and they were, like, all right, man, we’ll call you when something comes up. You can work freelance for us. I was, like, ehhh…[makes negative sound to express reaction]
When you go to all these studios, you see all these hipster-type people, New York-style-type people working, like, five people, like, one person in the studio. I’m, like, how do I get into a studio like that? My stuff is really good, I’m really fast. So I’m, like, how do I get in there? And they went through the same thing I went through – there’s a long line. So, one of the places I sent a reel to is one of the top places, and that’s Elias Arts. I started working for this smaller place, freelance. I did a couple of spots, and I won one of them. ‘Cause that’s how it goes, you get a demo fee, and then you might win it. So I won one of the spots, and it was two grand. And I was doing what I love to do. Not exactly what I love to do, but producing music was pretty cool.
So, then, I got a call. While I was working freelance, I was working in a music store, and I got a call on the cell phone from Elias, and he says, “Come down for an interview.” So, I was, like, cool. I go down for an interview, and they’re, like, we’ll call you and let you know. Then they call me for another interview, this is two months later, three months later, or something, I go in for the second interview, and it was more to the point. They were, like, can you get this done? We need someone that can…it was, like, wow! Okay, now I’m stepped up. After that second interview, they call me up right before New Year’s, and you could tell why, it’s the start of the New Year. And they were, like, we’d like to give you $30,000 a year. When they said that, I was, like, “Yes! That’s awesome!”
Andrew: $30,000 a year is basically a month’s rent on a shared apartment.
Jamie: Yeah. I mean, look, I was the hardest worker. I’ll be honest with you, before I moved to New York, my ex left me because I was working too hard on music. I was nasty at playing drums, at producing beats, and very fast, too, and when I got into Sam Ash, and I was working in the music store, that’s when my chops with the keyboard, with the Triton or Motif, really got enhanced, because, when that’s all you do, all day, for a year…
Andrew: In the stores selling, but also playing the instruments yourself. And learning them, and getting better and better.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah. It was in Times Square, so there was nothing but tourists. Of all different types of people, I mean, anybody you could imagine – it was Times Square, you can imagine. A lot of them were just window-shopping. The energy that you’d exert in that store was…I was working with guys who were just straight-up hustlers, I mean, it was ridiculous. And I have a story…
Andrew: Forgive me. I want to make sure to get this. There’s so much in my notes that I want to get in here, so let me just…
Jamie: No, that’s the end of the story.
Andrew: No, you get the job and then . . .
Andrew: . . . you get fired.
Jamie: Yeah, I go in there, I start working and it was, the environment was amazing. I mean it was, you know, there’s a pool table when you walk in. I mean it was that type, it was an amazing studio. And so, I’m in this little room, doing the dub room, I’m doing these dubs, which was, the advertising agency would send in the real and then, you digitize it. And that was my job. So, it’s like the entry level thing. There was no heat in this room, so we were wearing our jackets, this was in January.
And then, you know, maybe a week into that, they gave me this guy, who was training me and he was the biggest ball buster and he was a younger than me and it was just odd and you know, it wasn’t like, working at any other place I’d worked at. It was very [??] and you know, hard core you know, militant you know. And at lunch you know, everyone would, you know, mess with me and stuff. And there weren’t many people in there but, you know, it was a lot of contradictory stuff you know, just seeing if I could handle pressure and just making this, you know, creating this you know, this fake pressure, so that they’d see if I’d crack, you know, all that stuff.
So then yeah, after a month, I messed up or something and then they fired me and immediately, as they fired me, I went to the other music house, that was across the street and that music house told me that, I was fired because of a bid they got, that they were awarded. So, that was kind of like, a bitter sweet you know, ending to that. But I started working for that company . . .
Jamie: . . . and at the same time, since I had gotten fired from [??], I gave up on, ever looking for a job again. Because it was like, “If I can’t land my perfect job, I’m not made out for that.” So I was like . . .
Andrew: Even as you were going across the street to, and to get a job with them?
Jamie: . . . they’re freelance, they never. . .
Andrew: Oh I see, so you said, “I’m going to go freelance. I’m done with this ladder, the corporate ladder of the music industry is just as bad as the corporate ladder anywhere else, I’m done.”
Jamie: Yeah, yeah. It was, it was just impossible. I mean I was you know, and while I was there I mean, my personal life went down the drain. I mean, I was there until like, 22:00 at night. But I was doing good work and I would have been a great composer working for them but, I’m glad I didn’t because the minute I quit there, I started composing music and I out it up online, on a site, that said, “Buy It Now.”
Andrew: And this was your own site?
Jamie: Yeah and then I mean, and you know, then from there, I created, “How to play drums”, because I went to drum school, studied a=with kind of [??] and all these you know, famous drummers. You got Jim Chapin, all these really hard core . . .
Andrew: Let me just slow it down just a little bit. The first site that you built was bestbeatsonline.com, is that right?
Andrew: And the model there was 50 bucks per beat that you created. How did that work out for you?
Jamie: Not good because you know, I’d looked at, that was what my competition was doing. . .
Jamie: . . . and that didn’t work.
Andrew: They were selling individual beats for 50 bucks a pop and you said, “Hey mine are just as good as them, as theirs. I could beat them and see.” Do you think it wasn’t working for them too, that they were also just putting it out there, on hopes that somebody would buy it but, it wasn’t really a business model?
Jamie: No, I mean, I think it was working for them because they had a lot of other stuff going on. Like for instance, they’d sell beats for like $10,000.
Andrew: I see.
Jamie: You know I mean, I wasn’t doing that. I mean, when someone would offer me money like that, I’d say, “No” because then, it wouldn’t be in my portfolio.
Andrew: It was exclusively theirs, you’re giving your beat to them, they could do whatever they want with it, you’re no longer connected to it and you couldn’t do that.
Jamie: Yeah, exclusive. I mean, I did a couple of exclusives and then I regretted it because it was like, “Oh man, that beat was great for my portfolio.” You know and when people come to your site and they want to see what you’ve done, imagine not being able to say, you’ve achieved something. I mean, I had beats that had like, 100,000 plays on sound click you know, beats that were you know, they’d become famous you know, because everyone was licensing them. You know, there’s like 10,000 you know, independent music you know, rappers and R&B vocalists, they licensed my stuff and now, my stuff was all over the place, you know?
Andrew: So, they take your beat and they put it in their music and they sing over it and they include it. And that’s basically it, right? And then, you can start listening to music and hear your beat, that you created in the background of it or even in the foreground.
Jamie: You know what the secret was, it was actually, the model was actually business to business, when you think about it . . .
Jamie: . . . they weren’t consumers that you know, my fans, they were more, they were in business for themselves, and it wasn’t like, they were looking to be entertained or listen to music. You know, it was more like, people you know, very serious people needed you know, music to perform it. And so they’d come to me to provide that music. It was actually like business to business.
Andrew: Let’s see how you built up the business. First version of Chorus doesn’t work because you’re just getting started. $50 per beat doesn’t work and it was hard to do an affiliate program, which meant that you couldn’t get customers, right? So then you went and you got an eBook on ad words.
Jamie: Yes. I bought like, you know, can I mention names?
Jamie: Google cash by Chris Carpenter was the first one I read. And that was, like, when I read that ad words existed, I was like ‘That’s it.’ I knew it right there. I was like that’s …
Andrew: That’s going to work out for me.
Jamie: I’m going to make this work. I mean, when I learned that you can make a commission from promoting affiliate products, you can imagine what I did. And I wasn’t good at it at first. But, you know, at that same time, the environment, you know, to advertise in Google was much easier than it is now. So I had that paradox. You know, I mean, it was like you could just direct link just an ad to anything.
Andrew: What kind of products? You’re buying ads on Google and then you’re running an affiliate program so you can make a commission every time someone took an action like bought or turned into a lead like giving you their contact information. What kind of products were you selling?
Jamie: I had success selling what I had already sold.
Andrew: What do you mean?
Jamie: I had experience selling musical instruments. That campaign is going to be good.
Andrew: OK. So there were musical instruments that you can sell on commission. [??] program and then you would buy ads in Google to sell them.
Jamie: Yes. Like for instance, the campaign was the store. And then the ad group were the departments. And then inside the ad groups the keywords are the different instruments. You see what I’m saying?
That’s why you do good if you go into something that you’ve already have experience at. I used to sell vacuum cleaners like Kirby’s and Rainbows.
Andrew: Door to door.
Jamie: So I did very good with that campaign.
Andrew: What’s a product that you failed with?
Jamie: Something I didn’t know about.
Andrew: Like for example?
Jamie: Like for instance fitness. The first time I ever tried to do a fitness website, I even did it with a partner that she’s great at fitness. I actually had two partners, two instructors I did this site with because I don’t know about fitness. I don’t know how to do it. So I did the marketing, they did the content and I didn’t know what I was talking about on the front of the page. It was deeper than that. I didn’t know how to connect with the market.
So what I did was I made it just for women, you know? I mean, why would I do something like that and then why would I advertise using the keywords 6- pack abs or something.
Andrew: Let’s see, 6-pack abs aimed at women for a product that’s built for men.
Jamie: It’s like a record label, it’s like if Dr. Dre is going to do a country album. The people who buy country music won’t buy it from Dr. Dre. He’s a hip hop, gangster guy, you know? He wouldn’t know about that market, you see what I’m saying?
Andrew: At what point did you switch from selling other people’s products to selling your own products through ad words and through affiliate programs?
Jamie: Well, at first it was just a soap. It was like best pizza online. Read the book, try doing, you know, selling random stuff. Because in the beginning I didn’t know that secret of stick to what you know how to do. And then Beats365. Then [??] using other methods. I’m getting tired of getting frustrated with ad words and making sales with everything from forums to classified ads to just experimenting. And then doing my first how to make Beats website. And then, because how to make beads website was released that I’d done before I knew how to create an actual bead maker, which is a different market than how to make beads.
Andrew: Bead software that makes the beads for people.
Jamie: Yes. That’s what all my fans were asking me for. They were like all right, now is the time that you make a bead maker.
Andrew: Because they were tired of buying your stuff? I’m tired of making them myself?
Jamie: [??] myself.
Andrew: I want to make them myself, I should say. So what happened is you switched at some point from selling beads individually to doing a membership site where people could get all the beads that you make all at once. How did you make that switch? How did you know that that was the right way to sell it?
Jamie: Because it was like, obviously I don’t have the time, money or patience to get 500 clicks so that they’d purchase a $50 beat. I need a conversion after 20 clicks. That’s something that goes in… when you start… when you open your AdWords account and you’re paying for that, you want the conversion. You want to connect with who you’re trying to expose your, for lack of a better word, your product to. You want to make a connection between your market. If that connection isn’t there, they’re not going to buy it.
It was like, those people who were typing in beats, they want a good deal. It had nothing to do with… my quality was just as good as the ones that were doing it for $50 a beat. Because I had market tests. I put my beats up in marketplaces and leader boards, like Sound Click [SP]. Those are great marketing tests, because they were harsh.
If you put up something that, I might like it, but it wasn’t ridiculous, it doesn’t go to number one. Some of those beats that went to number one, we checked the heat maps, and sure enough, those are the ones that were getting… I know my stuff. They know they were good quality. They were reaching number one in the competitive marketplaces, in leader boards, where people would play each beat.
It was not about that. It was more like, “I’m spending the money and I don’t want to spend, I don’t want to risk, not making a profit. If I’m going to spend $1 on clicks, I want a conversion from that dollar. How do I get that conversion?” We not only brought the price down from, I think it was, $50 in the beginning… We not only brought the price down, but we then made huge value…
Andrew: Give even more. So you reduced the price and gave a lot more.
Jamie: We gave all of them.
Andrew: What about this, Jamie? That, because of the way that you price it, and I saw the video on the home page of Beats365.com… I love that video. I actually bookmarked it, because I love it so much. You show your iTunes and you say, “Look at all these beats, hundreds of them, that you’re going to get when you’re a member.” Can I become a member and go download all hundreds and say, “Forget it. I’m gone?”
Jamie: Can you download all the hundred beats, and then say, “Forget it, you’re gone?”
Andrew: Yeah, and then not pay you a second month’s fee?
Jamie: There isn’t recurring billing. It’s just the one-time fee.
Andrew: I totally misunderstood that. So, it’s a one-time fee…
Jamie: Yeah, that’s why people love me, man, because I don’t really do it for the… I mean, I don’t need money.
Andrew: But, back then you did need money. You were saying that this is so effective that…
Jamie: Yeah, it made some money. Yeah. That’s the way it is, man. There’s constant population. I don’t know why people try to raise their prices, to be honest with you. I don’t know why people spend a lot of money on anything.
Andrew: That wasn’t a tough decision for you, to say, “This is all fantastic stuff, it’s worth it, each one of them, $35 at least, if not hundreds of dollars, and I’m going to give it all at once?”
Jamie: That way of thinking, that’s why people have problems.
Andrew: I see.
Jamie: You’ve got to kill your competition.
Andrew: I see. When you go to that price…
Jamie: I was all over it for two years, if you typed in hip hop beats. How awesome of a keyword is that? All you saw all over the place was me. It wasn’t only me, but it was my affiliates, or it was somebody who used my beat. Then they blew up. Then, the licenses, you have to put my name there.
Jamie: So if you type in Nebula [SP] beats or something, I never used Jamie Lewis back then, because I thought my name was corny, but you type in Nebula [SP] beats, or Beats365, you can do creditbeats360… You’ll see thousands. There are different things you can search for and you’ll see a lot of that aftermath.
Jamie. I do have to change… I know you like the video, but I need to change that, because I don’t think it’s converting.
Andrew: I like how simple it is. I also like how you say, “You know it.”
Jamie: I thought so, too. I thought it was doing well. Why haven’t I done this yet? A lot of the time when you build a site, you’re thinking to yourself, “Do people understand how awesome of a deal this is?” [??]
Andrew: [??] For me, I thought it was membership, I assumed it was recurring. Let me see if I can continue with this. Now, you’ve got your product. It’s incredibly low priced, a lot of value. You’re trying to figure out how to market it. Did you turn to affiliates first?
Jamie: They found it. They found me. At first, I was like, “I don’t want to share my money.” That’s the way Clickbank worked. I only signed up to Clickbank, because I needed a very affordable solution that…
Andrew: A shopping cart.
Jamie: Yeah. I don’t know why I didn’t just use PayPal in the beginning. It was like that ignorance of I didn’t even know what PayPal was. It was my own ignorance, why I went to Clickbank, because it was like, “Oh, it’s only $50?” So, I signed up with Clickbank, and then I was just thinking I’m going to send my AdWords traffic up. I’m going to be successful and all this. When I was doing 100, 200 dollars a day with the AdWords, sending traffic there, I was thinking to myself, Okay, now I’m going to move on. Now I’m going to do the next thing.
So what I saw was all these sales started coming in, and they weren’t from me, they were from affiliates, and it said 4 dollars or something because it was at 70 percent. That was the default back then. So, I was thinking, no, they’re not just leaving you just four dollars. So, I killed the percentage, I brought it down to 20 percent. I thought, I’m worth much more than that. And then the sales stopped, they stopped promoting it. So I thought, I wonder what would have happened since I had 20 gravity, and there’s other people with 2000 or 400 gravity. Thank God I put it together, because I put it back to 70, and the affiliates kept happening to the point that it was 40 sales or something, at that 4 to 7 dollar mark. So it turned into a 300 dollar-a-day thing, instead of 100 dollars.
Andrew: I see. So, making more sales, less per sale, but overall it was a good amount of revenue.
Andrew: The reason, by the way, that you got into affiliates, you’re saying, is because Clickbank is made for affiliates. As soon as you start using them, they essentially start promoting you to affiliates and allow them to sell and collect a commission.
Jamie: Yeah. It used to be a lot better. If you put something up on Clickbank in 2005, they really take to it. Now, there are so many products. It’s the same thing as YouTube. Now there are so many videos. You remember when we used to put something up on YouTube, when it first came out, and you got a whole bunch of views.
Jamie: Now, you have to have an awesome video, you have to get some traffic to it, your headlines and tags need to match, everything needs to be succinct within, it helps to have an event that you do something with. So, it’s the same thing.
Andrew: You tried a bunch of other things, you said, like message boards. Did any of those things work at all?
Jamie: That’s tricky. The message board thing really worked as an affiliate, and doing joint ventures with people. I’ve recruited a lot of affiliates with, for instance, the website I talk about the movie that I did, “Ewel” [sp]. It was the place I would go to take a lunch-break, so to speak. I was always in the studio, not like when you’re working and you have friends to have lunch with. So, I would go there and say, hey, I have this new product out. Then all of them would start to promote my product, it was a done deal.
Andrew: I see, you’d go to lunch with people on a website, on the website, is what you’re saying.
Andrew: That’s actually pretty cool.
Jamie: Yeah, reach out. I had this funny case study that I did. I just want to talk about it before I forget.
Andrew: What’s the case study?
Jamie: The case study was selling an Obama eBook, an anti-Obama eBook, on republicanoperative.com, which is a forum that I used to troll and argue.
Andrew: So, you’re not even necessarily political, you just wanted to sell something and you realized these people would be open to an anti-Obama product?
Jamie: It was just a case study. I am political, actually. I have some friends in that forum, actually. It was just a case study I did in a class. After 2009, I started teaching it and that’s when I became really awesome at marketing. You are in class with 100 marketers, and you wouldn’t believe some of these niches. They’re crazy. How to get rid of poison ivy, and stuff. I asked, ‘Why are you into that?’ Because that’s what he does for a living, he specializes in poison ivy.
Andrew: So he’s selling . . .
Jamie: He sells a poison ivy removal guide.
Andrew: A guide, to removing poison ivy.
Jamie: He’s in my class, and he’s asking, how do I get more traffic. So, I’ve done 200 webinars now, so now, I know what I’m doing to the point where it’s pretty polished. I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but where I’m getting at with this is in the beginning, I was more of a free range affiliate with some of my own websites, that were obviously niches, you know the ones that were good, were niches that, the ones that would sell, were niches that I knew a lot about. And then after 2009, I started teaching stuff, consumed with you know, I’m obligated. I mean, it’s so much stuff and in the course of one day, I’ve got like, you know, 20 students that really rely on me or are stuck or something.
So, I don’t have a heck of a lot of time, to work on my own stuff anymore, my time, is working on theirs.
Andrew: I’m sorry, I want to break this all down. I promise we’re going to get into that but, I want to make sure that I get everything in here. Including, you created Sonic Producer . . .
Andrew: . . . right and then, what is Sonic Producer and what did you sell it for?
Jamie: Sonic Producer was my first beat machine, which was the answer to all my fans and clients saying you know, “Hey, when are you going to put out a beat machine?”
Andrew: Software that does it?
Jamie: Yeah, so . . .
Andrew: But, you’re not a coder. How did you do that?
Jamie: . . . so I took, you know, I drew out what I wanted it to look like, add pads on the corner and you know, I drew a sketch of it. This time I actually did it myself, like I designed the interface myself, with Photoshop. Like, it was entirely like, my own creation and then the sounds, like I have like, musical instruments. So you know, like I’ll play the drums, I’ll like record the drums, different snares and stuff like that . . .
Jamie: . . . also like, you know, I’ll take you know, sounds that you know, are in my beats or something, you know, like which we call combos, which is like a kick drum and then, a synth on top of it. So, when you hit the pad, it would be like boom, it’s like already done . . .
Jamie: . . . you know, use a combo and a snare and a combo snare etc. So then, with the design, with only sounds, then I went to a coder and I hired somebody, his name’s Basili [SP], he still works with me on my . . .
Andrew: How’d you find him?
Jamie: I think it was through ScriptLance, before he became a freelancer. So, I was like, “Here’s how I want it to work”, I made him like, a little video you know? That’s how you do it. You have those elements designed and then you’re, well in this case, it was content, that is actually in the machine. And he said, it was an I Phone app or something, it will be like, you know, your graphics, how you want those graphics to work and then, you have to hire, if you don’t know how to do it yourself, hire a coder. So, you know, I hired this coder and that he, watched my video, he was like, “Okay” and so, he put it together. It’s actually like in the beginning, I hired someone for like three months or four months and he wasted my time, that’s when I got Basili, and he finished it.
Jamie: And, like a music maker, he did the entire thing and I had, this time, I didn’t design it myself, I had a professional designer, design the interface . . .
Andrew: Okay and you knew it was going to sell because you had this list of people who, you might have only earned four bucks when they bought your beats package but, you knew that they were interested in beats and you knew that they wanted to make their own?
Jamie: Oh, it was crazy. I actually tested it, when it first came out. I actually tested it like, like in this micro niche way. Like, I had like, this little Lite Version, which was like a free trial, kind of. . .
Jamie: . . . and a frequency. It didn’t come with any tutorials or anything like that, it was like $1, and I sent ad words traffic out. You know, it was just a test, I figured I’d lose money but, at that frequency at the dollar, I was able to like, change stuff and see what you know, the presentation. That was my first experience doing that, like, doing split testing . . .
Andrew: I see. Just figure out, how to change the landing page and how to express what the product does, in a way that will, then sell to your audience at a bigger price.
Jamie: Yeah, it’s like, you know, when you create something really cool, and it’s like, you out it up, a lot of the time you get questions in your email, you know, potential clients and they’ll say to you, you know, “Hey, so you know, which you know”, like things that you remember, how you assumed it was recurring billing? It’s like that, it’s like, the best, one of the best things to do, is look at what people are saying about it, asking you and you say, “Uh, I got to make that more clear”, and then they wouldn’t ask. So, if you make enough stuff clear, on your page, so that you’re not getting questions anymore, and they understand it, you know? And they don’t feel the need to be like, “Hey, is there a money back guarantee?” You know, you have to add that stuff, so that people you know, they understand it. [??] it’s going to sell so, it’s like, I always looked at it like, make the product so awesome, I could make a video of me using it and then it’ll sell itself.
You’ll notice those pages don’t really have much to them you know, they’re just like, “Hey, this is what it is” and then, make it more affordable in your competition and then, put enough information on that page, so that people don’t feel the need to, you know, ask you a question, because if they feel the need to send a question, and be like is their money back guaranteed, it’s like they’re not going to buy it, like they’re going to forget about it.
Andrew: By the time you (?)… And how did they get… How do they ask you? How do you get those issues that they have, I’m looking at the site and I don’t see where I can contact you, but admittedly I’m looking very quickly right now.
Jamie: Well that’s another thing, is you don’t want to put contact like first thing, you know? Because the most important thing is explaining what it is.
Jamie: Like you know usually contact is at the bottom or on the right side of the navigation, you know? That’s like the usual way people should do it because you put contact first, everyone’s going to contact you and not look at what it is.
Andrew: But is it through the contact page that they got questions to you?
Andrew: All right.
Jamie: Or, with AWeber, or you know, your auto responder service you can do a survey. You know where you opt in, so above there you can have all sorts of questions and have dial, you know like have drop-downs, like multiple choice, like which one do you… fits you. I used to do surveys like that a lot, like market research, find out what people are looking for and design something for them. So those are the other products that I would sell either in my members area, or as a follow up in my newsletter, or a broadcast, you know? I mean there’s… It’s just endless.
Andrew: So you sold Sonic Producer for how much?
Andrew: Oh, 180.000.
Andrew: Then I asked you early what you bought that was fun. Didn’t you buy something with that revenue? With that… That’s not revenue…
Jamie: Yeah, I bought my house. Right after that, you know? So I mean it was like… I mean you know my Beemer, that 645, was a lemon, It was a lemon though. I mean it was gorgeous and no one knew it was a lemon, but you know, but oh it was bad. I’ll never do that again, never mention the BMW or whatever.
Andrew: Who did you sell it to?
Jamie: That BMW, I traded that in for my Mercedes. You know, the black…
Andrew: No, I mean the Sonic Producer. How did you find a buyer for it?
Jamie: Flippa, I think.
Jamie: Yeah, I use eBay and Flippa. Sometimes it sells on Flippa sometimes it sells on eBay at first, you know? But you do them like one at the time, like I think I’ve put Sonic Producer on eBay first and someone bought it on eBay, and it turned out to be someone who… It was like for 200.000 or some, it wasn’t for 180.000, because I brought down the price after I got so frustrated with this fella. So he purchased it for 200.000 and he ended up not knowing anything about online business, and right away as soon as he told me, you know he says thank you I look forward to doing this transaction with you and you know, I bought it for my son, because I want him to run a business. And I said oh no this is going to be a problem, you know?
The guy is not an expert in this, so sure enough he came back he sent me an email and it had all of these things, you know? Ten different things, and they were you know, his concerns were all not necessary, it was like why is this on ClickBank? And you know, stuff like that, like… to answer his questions it would be like I’m training this guy, you know? So like, we both decided, I was like I think, you know, I’d be better off re- listing it. So I re-listed on Flippa and it sold to, what was his name? Dave I think, this guy named Dave. And Dave took it to ridiculous levels I wish I never sold it to tell you the truth, you know? I mean like he blew it up. And then he sold it later on, again. And I should say, I guess after he sold it, he rubbed it in my face. Then he says you know, well I made my money back and then some…
Andrew: Aah, that’s painful.
Jamie: I mean you see those videos man, the thing rocks. I mean it’s… Then I always talk about how they (?) bass drums loud enough, those tritons and motifs don’t… I don’t know why.
Andrew: You then created other sites as we were saying earlier, including, where’s the one on violin. What’s the name of it? Ah Violin Master Pro. How does something… What is Violin Master Pro?
Jamie: Violin Master Pro is a collection of videos done by my father who is like this world renowned violinist, and…
Andrew: Eric Lewis.
Jamie: Yeah, it’s good content, the only problem is, is that is at on ClickBank. And there is a lot of, nowadays there’s a lot of people who are just, I mean me and my father are not happy about the representation of it. There are a lot of biz op type people promoting it, and of course they say in the title “scam” or something like that. My father doesn’t want to see that stuff. He was an ambassador to the USSR. He doesn’t need that type of [??] He’s been with the Manhattan String Quartet for 40 years or something.
Andrew: And that’s the way that a lot of affiliates promote stuff. They know that people are interested in buying, but they’re wondering if it’s a scam or not, and they will type in the name of the product that they’re looking for and “scam,” and then they’ll end up on a page that is an affiliate’s page.
Jamie: Yeah, I don’t understand why they’re doing that. It’s not their fault. They’re doing that because the people who type in the word and then “scam” buy it, so I’m like, “Why?”
Andrew: Because they end up saying it’s not a scam in the end. I used to do that when I interviewed guests to see if they were scamming. I wanted to see who was pissed, and it used to turn up things that were interesting, people who were really complaining and saying, “Hey, I was scammed by this guest.” I could bring it up in the interview or not even have the guest on. But eventually what I found was there were a lot of affiliates who were building websites like this, who said, “Is Tim Sikes [SP] a scam?” And then I would read the article, and it would basically say, “I thought it was a scam, too, but he’s not a scammer, and I love what happened to my life. It’s all changed, and if you click here, you can go and buy for yourself, and we can talk about how our lives have changed together.” And then people, I guess, click on that and buy. So I see that wasn’t a huge business for you, and you’re still running that, right?
Jamie: No, I mean, that’s pretty good. That’s pretty good. I mean, I incorporated Beats365 [SP]. That was just way too serious, but with [??] Champ Entertainment business, DBA, and it’s a very good product. I mean, it’s Eric Lewis, my father. He’s a professor of music, so how much is it, $30?
Andrew: Let’s take a look. Here, that’s him. Can I play it in the background, or are you guys going to sue me?
Jamie: No, it’s cool. It’s like $30 for lessons with Eric Lewis.
Andrew: 27 bucks.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, so it’s pretty good. It’s not making as much as it used to.
Andrew: How much money did it make overall?
Jamie: I don’t know, maybe like 50,000 a year or something like that . . .
Andrew: All right.
Jamie: . . . or like 40, 000 [sounds like].
Andrew: Now, you’ve got a staff op [sounds like] to do this, and a lot of your staff is virtual. And you have some issues with virtual staff, including you hired this one girl, and do you know the story I’m talking about? The one with the hash oil?
Jamie: Oh, the blow up the kitchen? Yeah.
Andrew: What was this woman supposed to do, and then what happened when she blew up the kitchen?
Jamie: She was supposed to put websites together for people. Like, when someone buys my online business stuff, sometimes they want me to build them a custom website with their own domain name and their own graphics, unique everything [sounds like], and I stopped doing it because there’s no profit margin at all. I mean, honestly, I’m thinking to myself why am I building it? I should be building my own sites. I’m like the frustrated creator. I want to build more stuff for myself, but it’s like I’m building stuff for other people now. I guess it’s like the natural evolution, but that’s what she was supposed to be doing. I mean, the hard thing is that I guess didn’t have an NDA with her or something like that, and she learned way too much about what we were doing and then went into it for herself. That’s the hard thing, is when you have people who work for you, and they see what you’re doing and how to do it, then they start doing it for themselves.
Andrew: [??] Jeremy Weiss said that she took your list, you told him.
Andrew: She took your customer list.
Jamie: It was more like that she started to talk to them and invite them to her LinkedIn and then sell them more products herself.
Andrew: I see.
Jamie: So it was like they’d already spent money with me. I mean, that’s terrible for a million different reasons because she doesn’t know what she’s doing. I was the one who was telling her, “This is the domain name. This is what it needs to look like. This is the graphics. This is how the PPC campaign will operate. These are the pages that each ad group sends traffic to, etc.” I mean, she was working for me. She’s not supposed to be running the brains behind an operation like that, and then in my name. You see what I’m saying?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, suddenly she’s the . . .
Jamie: So like the typical, “I’m going to just steal his clients,” that type of thing.
Andrew: So, what happened with the hash oil?
Jamie: That’s when I think she went downhill I guess. She had a, you know, she was cooking hash or, I don’t even know how to do that but, she was cooking hash and it exploded and she was in the hospital for like, two weeks. When she got out of the hospital, that’s when everything went down. Before that incident, she was like, really good. I mean, the clients really like her and she was fast and that’s really all that. You know, I mean, all I need in someone who works for me, is to really make sure that, they are fast and they keep a dialogue open with the client, they notify the client, they’re not afraid to send emails to client. Like, you know, that’s all I look for, is like they do good work and so that’s what she was providing. And after that man, she just decided to.
Andrew: So, what do you do, when you hire a virtual people? Because that’s the way you prefer to work. How do you keep them copying your customer list and moving on?
Jamie: Well, they don’t have access but, I mean . . .
Andrew: So, you just don’t give them access to it?
Jamie: . . . No, to be honest with you, there are other terrible things that could happen. I mean, you could have like, you know, I don’t know. Never really had that, I’ve just had a lot of incompetence and [flakedom], you know. You know, I’ve seen a lot of incompetent people, that I’ve hired but you know, you hire someone else, you know.
Jamie: But yeah, you do have to try to, you have to try to really you know, audition, training, fully train someone, make sure they can remember, what they learned because you don’t want a client to come back to you and say, “How come I’ve had three different representatives.” You know, because remember that girl. We had to immediately find someone else and everyone said to me, “Why is she gone?”
Jamie: You know, so it’s like, and they would, clients do not like a new person working you know? I mean it’s something like, you know, like that’s an example of why I would get, you know, why I wouldn’t try to rectify something, you know? Like, it’s when it’s just ridiculous like that. I mean, it was like, blew up her kitchen, with you know, like, “What is that?”
Andrew: [laughs] I don’t mean to be laughing, that’s just a.
Jamie: No, the team now, is great. We’ve got Addison and Greg and . . .
Andrew: Is it still all virtual?
Jamie: . . .Yeah, I mean. Addison’s, you know, Greg’s in Oklahoma and so he is a . . .
Andrew: That’s the guy who used to work for you all the time?
Jamie: Part time out there, no, Greg’s, yeah, he’s still working for me and he’s like . . .
Andrew: And something happened with this wife. Can you talk about that?
Jamie: . . . no, I don’t think that’s his wife.
Andrew: No? All of a sudden, his wife gives him a hard time and he just leaves the house and now, he leaves the office 5:00 p.m. every day and starts to take weekends off.
Jamie: Oh, you’re right, yeah, oh my god, yeah. But no, she’s cool though, she’s cool.
Jamie: Came out here, they came out here and you know, we had barbeque.
Andrew: As long as I’m getting into the personal stuff, you said earlier, that you had a girlfriend who left you and I kind of brushed past it because I wanted to get to the business stuff and I still do, but, got to say, actually, do you feel comfortable saying on camera, who she went with?
Jamie: Yeah, a guitarist from the band.
Andrew: Your band?
Andrew: It’s your buddy, she goes off with?
Andrew: And this is before you had all the success. How were you feeling, at that point, about yourself, when she does this?
Jamie: That, I was with her, since I was 16 and so, I was like 23 or so. So how long is that? Seven years or something, right?
Andrew: Yeah and formative years too, for . . .
Jamie: We just had our baby, we just had our baby. It was like a year old and like, so she’s freaking out you know and I wasn’t, I mean, I’d take responsibility now, I mean, I should have put my music making on hold and been there, you know. If I wasn’t bringing in money and doing music all day, we can’t do that, you know. I’ll tell any young person that right now, like, “If you have a child, you have to, not do that”, you know. I mean, what I was doing, paid off in the end. I mean, some people go to war, when [inaudible 00:04:29] they got a baby. So, I guess I wasn’t that bad but, you know, I do regret like, you know, letting this you know, he was a guitarist in the band and he was upstairs, helping her with the baby, I should’ve known. You know, so it’s going to happen you know? So like, that’s why I went into the relationship stuff, I write a book you know, on . . .
Jamie: . . . Yeah, how to get your girl back and not to let that happen and.
Andrew: What’s the name of the book?
Jamie: It was, “Don’t Break Up.”
Andrew: “Don’t Break Up.” But now, you’re very mature about it and you’re self-analytical, and you’re aware of the situation. Back then you did something that was shocking. I don’t want to say it. I’d like for you to say it if you feel comfortable saying what you, did you end up doing this? This website?
Andrew: I think I can say it, you’re cool…
Jamie: Yeah, say it.
Andrew: I can say it. Good. Did you build a revenge website on your girlfriend, I looked it up to try to see it, and I couldn’t find this thing. But did you…
Jamie: Yeah, of course, man. It was a parody though and it didn’t have her in it.
Andrew: What did you do? Is this afteryoubreakup.com
Jamie: Yeah, that was my new girlfriend.
Jamie: Yeah, that’s fine. I’ll say it again…
Andrew: So what was this parody that you did? Because I think your lawyer didn’t want you to do it. Your lawyer didn’t think it was as funny as were making it out to be.
Jamie: He’s a… Yeah dude, the lawyer, lawyers are idiots, man, I’m sorry but I’m just… I’ve learned all I need to know, you know? I’ve dealt with lawyers for five years, you know? Five years and, or longer.
Andrew: So what was the parody then?
Jamie: It was fine. It was the thing that, you know, he was like don’t make money with it. He was like, you can, you can… But it was just a parody and it was like… I mean it did have an e-book written by someone I joint ventured with. But, that video on get your ex back, no, getbackatyourexnow.com. That video had my real… My wife that I’m married to now, in it. And so is like she kills me, so it was like a female against male video, you know. It was, you know obviously I don’t want to do a video about me, you know? That would be awful. It always has to be the girl killing the guy.
Andrew: So togetbackatyourex.com is the site?
Andrew: Getbackatyourexnow , I’m going into the archives right now to see it, because the other site that I brought up afteryoubreakup.com was an e- book that you were selling or actually collection of CD’s.
Jamie: Which one?
Andrew: Afteryoubreakup.com was a site where you were selling relationship audio.
Jamie: Yeah, that one never really did anything. Like the relationship stuff didn’t do a heck of a lot of stuff, like don’t break up did but it doesn’t do anything anymore like the music stuff does. Relationship stuff I’m not too good with it, not to good, I’ve tried because I thought, I think I know a lot, I’ve had actual experience, like I went thru…
Andrew: Sorry this is the site, I finally found it, I’m going to hit pause there. It’s actually, someone, who’s choking the guy on your photo, that’s just stock photography?
Jamie: Yeah, Let me look at it. Let me see.
Andrew: I don’t even know how… here…here’s how to show it to you, I am going to send it to you via Skype chat, it’s just from archive (?) …
Jamie: (?)… Alright.
Andrew: So you build all these different websites, how do you keep from wasting a lot of money on them?
Jamie: Stock photography.
Andrew: That was what? Stock photography. So I see. This is revenge tactics. Let’s see…
Jamie: Yeah this is an AdSense. This turned into just an AdSense site, but we didn’t do much with this. I mean it was like you wrote this e-book and then Chris was like I think that you’ll get in trouble because someone will buy it and hurt their ex and you’ll be blamed for it. It was like that.
Andrew: The very top of the site actually has a disclaimer, I think.
Jamie: Yeah, he told me to put that on there.
Andrew: Okay, so here’s the thing, I’ve got more sites here that I can possible list for you, and without driving the audience nuts. What I’m curious about is how do you know whether a site’s going to succeed or not before you invest a lot of money into it or a lot of time creating CD’s for something like, what was it? Afteryoubreakup.com
Jamie: The first thing you need to remember is to only do stuff that you know a lot about. Now some people don’t know a lot about stuff. Right? So worse some people might know a lot about something but it’s not marketable. So it just has to be marketable and you’re expert in it. As you see get your ex back, that niche is marketable but I didn’t know enough about it to rip success like how I did with the music stuff. With the music stuff…
Andrew: Did you do anything to test it out before you created an e-book, or did you just say hey you know what I’m going to write whatever I can and if it sells great if it doesn’t who cares I’ve wasted some time writing that book.
Jamie: Everything from domain names to actual those surveys that I was mentioning, to (?) sales page, all the market research type of stuff, heck I use to put 10 domain names on rotation. Equal rotation in adverts and see which one got the highest…
Andrew: Click rate.
Jamie: They all went to the same page, but they had different display URLS.
Andrew: And this is just to see which you are, eventually build your business on?
Jamie: Which one they like the most. And the dirty ones to get your ex back, or I tried doing a pickup artist website, right, and that never really worked out too good, except my partner, he was able to get it going using like classified ads and stuff. But the more adult names were clicked on the most, so it was pretty funny.
Andrew: But then do you do any of this testing before you build the product, before you write the book, before you write the software or buy the software, or does it happen afterwards?
Jamie: Well, 2006, 2007, I did projects for all the wrong reasons. I mean, someone would say, “I have this great idea.” “Yeah, right, sure,” and we’d do it. This one guy I knew, he was like, “I’m a drill instructor. I have a book on how to survive boot camp.” So we did this project together, and it was actually pretty profitable. The thing that freaked me out, though, was that all these Marines were getting mad, so I was like, “I’m not into this. I want to sell this to someone who’s in the armed forces, someone who knows what he’s doing, so he can better represent it.” We sold that website for like maybe 15,000 bucks or something.
Andrew: Why would the Marines [??]
Jamie: That’s an example. Sometimes I’d build a website with a joint venture partner, and it wasn’t that it wasn’t profitable. It was just that I didn’t like running it, like I didn’t like the clients. We had this one that I did with a joint venture partner that was in Chinese herbs, so I was like the record label, and they were like the content, like they were the artist. So again and again I’d do this. It was similar to like if you did a CD and it sold like crazy, but you didn’t like what it did for your company, you didn’t like the type of response it got from your fans, or like from the people who were purchasing it. And the Chinese herbal thing freaked me out because there were some really sad people buying that for chest enhancement for males, and so there were guys who were e-mailing us, and they were crying, and they’re like, ‘I’m going under the knife tomorrow.’ I was like, ‘I don’t want to be in this. I didn’t know this was about that.’
Andrew: You mean going under the knife to add breasts?
Jamie: Yeah, my joint venture partner, he was like an expert in it, so he was talking about how to do different exercises and stuff. It was supposed to be about exercise. These people were much more serious than just exercise. They were like ready to get surgery or something, so when I found that out, I was like, ‘I don’t want to be in this market.’ So if I could go back in time, I would’ve just milked that music thing, and then the online business thing is cool, too, because I was like AdWords certified and everything, so, I mean [??]
Andrew: What was the most profitable product that you created?
Jamie: Well, Sonic Producer was the biggest musical one, and then IM With Jamie is my biggest business one.
Andrew: What’s that, IMWithJamie.com?
Jamie: So like coaching my classes that I do every Tuesday and Thursday.
Jamie: So, I mean, that’s the one I’m most known for in how to learn Internet marketing, is IM With Jamie. Sonic Producer is probably my biggest musical one. I don’t know, maybe that or [??] 65 might be the bigger of the two, just over time. What I mean by that is Sonic Producer is the biggest in the smallest amount of time.
Andrew: What I mean is, how do we get to millions of dollars in revenue when all of the beats together are generating 900,000 in revenue, for example?
Jamie: Well, what do you mean?
Andrew: Where do the millions come in?
Jamie: [??] you’ve got Sonic Producer, you’ve got IM With Jamie, you’ve got all of the other, How to Play Drums.
Andrew: You’re saying all of them together? There’s no one that does more than a million dollars, but all of them together [??]?
Jamie: Yeah, and also you’ve to remember I had sell websites like almost upwards of $500,000, I think, on Flip alone. At one point, we even sold our AdWords campaigns through a product. That was one of the things I did before I taught Internet marketing, was we got into that niche and sold our actual AdWords campaigns, and that product was fire. I mean, it was like the type of thing where people would just plug it in, and the AdWords campaigns were still working. That was while you could still direct link, so that one blew up. That was like maybe a million dollars, two millions dollars or something on its own.
Andrew: How about this one, Jeremy Weiss, our producer, asked you, “What’s the one question that I didn’t ask you?” You basically said to him, “You didn’t ask me what it was like being paid your first million.” Then you told him, “It was scary. I got a million dollars all at once in my bank account within a week.”
Andrew: How did you do that? What was it that got you a million dollars in your bank account within a week?
Jamie: That was when we launched Digibizpro. Digibizpro, to this day, it’s our software that we probably worked the hardest on, because…
Jamie: Yeah. It’s like a step up from, I’d say our competition is for instance, Optimize Press, or like any of the… not even Optimize, Word Press. That’s our competition. It’s a step up from that, where it’s more business orientated. It’s more like…
Andrew: A content management system that you created?
Jamie: Yeah. There’s PLR included in there. There’s a lot of different stuff included in it, but the ability to edit the site is really, really freakin’ good. Then, of course, we host everything. It’s not easy to run that business though, because it costs us a lot of money to run it. For instance…
Andrew: You are hosting people’s sites?
Jamie: Yeah, but not only that, but it’s like we have people who work with the students too, for instance, if they need something done. A lot of the time, it’s like dull. A lot of it is the service, as well. It starts off automatically, where you have a template. You put in your information. You design what you want the template to look like. Then, after that, the people that work for me will help you customize it. Also, you know, we run our domains through enom. So, we fight with profit margin with domains. You know how that goes, because…
Andrew: Yeah, because if you’re buying a domain from someone you have to pay for it.
Jamie: [??] Yeah. Merchant accounts have reserves, they have fees. So, there’s not as much profit margin as you’d think nowadays.
Andrew: How did you get to $1 million within a week, from a selling that then?
Jamie: Maybe 10,000 customers or something.
Andrew: How did you get 10,000 customers?
Jamie: It was a launch that was… all the people who promoted me, I didn’t even know them yet. It was my introduction to everyone else in the industry. They didn’t know who I was. They were like, “Oh, that’s the guy who does the music websites.” I was working with this guy, who was essentially my affiliate manager, he told me we were going to do this launch. I was like, “What’s a launch?” It was like that.
He goes out and he recruited all these guys in the Internet marketing industry. They started sending traffic at me. That’s why I was a little scared. I was like, “What the hell?” I’d never been introduced to a launch before. I’d never seen that amount of money come in that fast. It was like, “Oh, my God,” you know?
At the end of the day, it ended up being successful. To give you an example, this is like we’re getting a little technical and internal, but we still own that same merchant account that we launched with. It’s still, every year, very good.
Andrew: But, I’m on the site, and I don’t see anything on there now. Then when I go to Warrior Forums, to see what people are saying…
Andrew: Before I get to Warrior Forums, people said about it, and you know what they said, because I see that you responded on there a few years ago, but before I get to that, why don’t I see anything on the site right now?
Jamie: Because, we only sell the Digibizpro through our other products, like for hosting. For instance, if we had it for sale on that page, then it would be… there would be no sense to do that.
Andrew: Why not?
Jamie: Because, you know, they can buy it through the other sites.
Andrew: Okay. So, here’s what people said…
Jamie: Why? Do you think I should open it…
Andrew: No. I have no idea.
Jamie: Oh. Well, I mean, I just figured that… No. I mean, yeah, you have a point there. We could open it up, I guess. But, yeah when we come…
Andrew: There are many reasons not to. I’ll tell you why. For example, when we did Bradford and Reed [SP], we did online greeting cards, we never changed the home page from, I think, year two of the site, because I didn’t want people coming to the home page and figuring out how we built our business, what our funnel even looked like. I wanted them to come to the home page and see something that just looked very non-threatening, not worth copying, and if they did copy it because they heard that we were doing well ,they would copy it and realize, ah this stinks it’s not working for me maybe Andrew’s lying about his success. Meanwhile success just wasn’t anywhere on the homepage. So and I also didn’t want people to know,because there are reasons not to, but, so I’m not pushing you…
Jamie: Well like I don’t like having products like that aren’t getting traffic like I don’t like sales. A lot of the time when I do a sales video, it’s because distributors are like, where’s your sales video or something.
Andrew: They want it.
Jamie: Yeah like I mean I do such weird avant-garde like types of things and what I’m saying, and maybe some of them really work. It’s like distributed like the affiliates they don’t like trust you, you know what I’m saying. I have never had a flop; I hardly had a flop ever some of them are more disappointing. When I remembered I manufactured wealth in a box, I spent a ton of money on that. And that was disappointing, because it was like I spent money on this thing.
Andrew: So here’s what one member said. This is a member who only posted one thing obviously used a fake name just to get his idea out there. He goes,” Hey I also purchased the Digi Biz Pro System last October 2009. This was version one. I purchased the deluxe ten package product for 997 dollars. The reason I purchased this product was so I can earn money while I tried to learn other internet marketing systems like ad words adsense etc.” So this person paid 997 dollars.” Jamie and his staff promised that they would set up the sites, write content, purchase the domain names, get affiliates, get traffic, and so on. In other words, the system was turnkey, ready to use.
Anyway, I received the occasional email from Digipress updating me, Digibiz updating me on the progress of my website from October 2009 to January 2010. Each e-mail also stated that I would be making money very soon. Then I received an email about the release of digibiz pro version two and I said what? You haven’t even completed version one yet! So version two comes out and software’s now pick and choose as which niche you would like to promote” Anyways, keeps going and then he ends with,” Haven’t heard anything since Digi Biz Pro since April 2010 e-mails contained promotions from other products telling me that the company’s main office moved.”
Jamie: Yeah, see what that sounds like to me is like a competitor pretending to be a customer, is what it sounds like. It was a hundred dollars for a site that we built for them. It’s not automatic yet. We didn’t create version two. So when we first launched we had to build websites for people and we built every one of them. There was also a refund. There’s also money back guarantees. So some of the sites that we built for people ,people refunded.
Andrew: See, Alara said, “I assumed that it was Digi Biz Pro One, but I removed it from my computer and then the refund was made so I can’t be positive.” Anyway, this person got a refund.
Jamie: That first person, remember how it was almost like we put out version two, and we gave it to all the version one clients for free. And that person did not like that we gave it to him for free.
Andrew: The person didn’t like that he got it for free.
Jamie: That’s why I tell you the industry consumes you because it’s almost like. I met a few of my clients who I talked with all the time. We have two classes a week, and all my clients are on my Facebook for, you know. So it’s like people who have actually bought it, bought my stuff in online business niche really dig it, but a lot of the people who are not really familiar with me, they have their so many other crap products out there and stuff that it kind of, they look at it, they look at the numbers there looks like the other one I’m out of here.
Andrew: It is a very tough space to figure out who’s a scammer, who’s just preying on our needs to do well in life ,and to pay the bills and to get out of a job or whatever our issue. Is there are scammers who prey on that and charges a thousand bucks and just disappear. Then I know that there are people who are really generally trying to do something. Who are trying to help, who are trying to help in actually getting results. Let me ask you this, how do I know that you’re one of the good guys? Am I just capitalizing on your past success and getting me to pay hundreds of dollars for stuff?
Jamie: Yeah, I got a formula. I guess the formula is whoever is in the space should have done a real multiple online businesses, before teaching it. That weren’t online business themselves. Someone who is like, I’ll teach you about how to run an online business. Okay what have you done? What’s your resume?
“Oh, I have this online business site. Oh, this business site”. Where is your real online business?
Andrew: Meaning they sell how to succeed with online businesses and that’s the only success that they’re pointing to.
Jamie: Yes. Like are you like ad words certified? Where are your accomplishments? Like, what have you done? Where’s your bio, where is your resume?
A lot of guys have like one of them, you know, like for six months of something and after the six months “Oh, I cracked the code. I’m going to go and teach the stuff”. That’s kind of faulty. Those people run into troubles, like their reputation.
And second thing is your price point. When you got people who’ve only done an online business or never did at all. Just went into it and that’s all they’ve ever done and then they charge $20,000 for coaching. I charge $30 for coaching. You see what I’m saying?
Andrew: Is it you that is doing the coaching or is this part of a group with multiple people?
Jamie: No. It’s just me. It’s a class with multiple clients but it’s me. Well, I have two other people who help me out but that’s the thing. And then I don’t do coaching, you know. I do that class and that’s it.
Andrew Warner: You don’t do one on one coaching?
Jamie: I do one on one coaching with people that are in the class like on Facebook or you know. I let everyone know in the classes that if you need help with WordPress or something like that I’m not your guy. Obviously I’m not going to spend an hour. I don’t have the time to do that, to show someone Word when they can be learning about how to use WordPress from WordPress, you know, from wordpress.com.
So I’m not that type of guy. I’m just the type of guy who’d be like “This is, you know, run your ad words account. Send it at these pages for 24 hours, pause it. Run another campaign”, you know, stuff like that. What [??] are you in? The client will say to me like I’m in dog training or something. I’d say “What do you know about dog training?” “I don’t know anything about it”. I’d be like “That’s the wrong niche for you. You’re fake”.
You see, it’s like that. So that’s like the second thing. It’s that price point thing. It’s like they have a big problem with that $20,000 per coaching if the person sucks. Like, there are some cats like, I can mention names, right?
Andrew: Mention names?
Jamie: There are some cats that have gotten like a bad rep, you know, like Frank Kern, right? Now that dude, some people say he’s like a predator or something like that. That dude is not a predator. He used to call me on my phone. He never asked me for money. I never even knew he was like a guru or something. He used to call me and he’d be like when I had sites on eBay. And he’d say, “I’m interested in buying your site”.
I used to talk to him for like an hour and he was always like very careful and very concerned about customers, like about clients and stuff. I never knew that. And then he ended up promoting one of my guitar sites, this huge guitar [??]. And he was a super affiliate for the guitar site.
Andrew: So how do we know if you can really teach this stuff or if you’re just trying to capitalize on how big this market is and how much money people are willing to pay to turn their lives around?
Jamie: There isn’t as much money as you think in it because the profit margins aren’t as big as when they…
Andrew: Aren’t you making more money from teaching this stuff than you did from selling beads and everything else?
Jamie: More gross revenue.
Andrew: But then you split it out more with affiliates.
Jamie: I can tell you one thing. The Sonic producer thing, you know. $500,000 profit in a year, right? From one website. That performance, that example does not exist in this market. Does not exist. I do not make $500,000 profit from one website. I mean, $180,000 is included in that in 12 months. You see what I’m saying?
I mean, up or down, it was net. So gross was even beyond that.
Andrew: And the half a million dollars was because you sold it for $180,000 and you also generated some profits from it while you owned it from selling to your current customers.
Jamie: Yes. Like for instance, I can give you an example. Like for [??], right? That’s something that’s been going on for two years or something. So it’s way beyond seven figures and paychecks. But it’s been going two years. And then there are all the expenses once I get that net profit. See, there’s all these expenses that are curved from having to run the multiple auto-responder accounts and dedicated servers and servers for hosting all the websites that go to webinar account, all of that. There’s lot more expenses in time that’s taken than I would with that I’d be up against rather than just running something like Sony Producer or auto pilot stuff so it’s a…
Andrew: Why not do it why not run more of these easier sites.
Jamie: I’m a little conflicted because it’s like I would like to become number one in the online business thing and just wipe out everyone else right because I don’t think anyone else can really do it. I mean I won’t mention names but a couple of people who were really bit I’ve shown them some of my stuff and they don’t even believe it.
Andrew: What is your process? You said you have a process.
Jamie: Like this is an example this is great. The one I showed someone was Fiftytozero right.
Andrew: What’s Fiftytozero?
Jamie: It’s a football coaching website that I did with a football coach first day $2,000. So I was at this event and I showed someone a guru the phone and I don’t know I know nothing about this guru like if he’s real. I mean I would assume he’s legit to the point where he has business experience, and his price points are not ridiculous, and people aren’t upset with him he’s probably doing a good job for society. But he couldn’t believe that all of these invoices were flooding in. I was like look click bank click bank click bank and it was coming from 50 to 0 on the receipt.
Andrew: So what’s the process that you’ve taught this entrepreneur to build Fiftytozero. Can you sum it up in a few steps so that we can understand here?
Jamie: Oh to build Fiftytozero?
Andrew: No to build any I thought you were saying sorry I could have misunderstood I thought you were saying part of the process…
Jamie: What I was saying is that he wouldn’t even believe it. So that’s really important because if people who are teaching this stuff believe that the only niche that will work is teaching online business I am Biz Opp then we have a problem.
Andrew: I see so you are saying that he shouldn’t have been surprised that something was…
Jamie: [SS] won’t make shit with Biz Opp it’s too competitive they won’t make shit with that. You have to go into something that’s what I teach all my people is you have to go into what you are already doing. Like I had a guy online who was working all that hard on weight loss Biz Opp because he thought that’s where the money was and that’s what one of these guru’s told him two dollars, three dollars a click the guy is drowning, And I said what do you do, and he says I was a judge. I was like why don’t you do a freaking I said well what do you specialize what I didn’t know a lot about law but he was like I used to do divorces.
Andrew: So why don’t you do a how to do a divorce book and put it on Kindle, man, and so I sent him in the right direction and that’s something he can make money with and then [? 00:02:57] because it will on auto pilot once it blows up. So it’s like that’s where a lot of my time nowadays besides Fiftytozero that was like last year and that was a success. It was a success because the guy I did it with is awesome The football coach is just amazing and the niche was like high and I didn’t know it was so high.
Andrew: What was the website called what’s the URL?
Jamie: Check it out fiftytozero.com.
Andrew: The word fifty or is it the number 50.
Jamie: Yeah it’s all like words.
Andrew: I see yeah it’s all words fiftytozero there’s it all ends up [SS] plays instantly.
Jamie: That music in the video is like a metal song that I did.
Andrew: That’s yours?
Andrew: I see.
Jamie: Yeah and then my kid is one of the football players.
Andrew: And it’s $49 to get this?
Andrew: And it’s through Click Bank so he’s using your process. All right where can people find out what your process is? Is it it’s not IM with Jamie is it?
Jamie: Check out Jamielewis.com.
Andrew: There’s Lewis.com there’s a new site there’s not much on there yet because you just launched it.
Jamie: No there is a lot of stuff on there.
Andrew: There is? Okay.
Jamie: Yeah there is a ton of stuff on there. There is a lot of free stuff like PPC stuff, there’s a lot of business stuff. Dude it’s just so important that people realize that it’s just entrepreneurism or it’s just building your own business being your own boss. I mean whether you have clients or you are doing something more like this where you sell a book. And the more value the more pages that you do the better it will sell, and that proof is in the Beats365 like that whole case study was just it was just amazing to me. I mean put yourself in my shoes you’re like doing music for very cheesy music.
You take all of it and you package it and you make almost a million dollars with it. It’s pretty crazy. But I’m conflicted. I think to myself, what do I want to do. Do I want to fire everyone and cancel all my hosting, and say goodbye to all my clients, all my students, and go back to what I used to do. What would i like to do. A lot of the time I think to myself, I don’t want to go back to what I used to do. Like when I think there might be a bigger mission, like the first guru who does it for free. OR does what I did with Beats365, with this. When everyone’s selling their stuff for $50 and I just give them all of it for 27 bucks or something. Because more money more problems man. I’m just…
Andrew: What kind of problems are you having?
Jamie: See, I’m just trying to simplify my life now.
Andrew: So give me an example of the kind of problem you’re having. I need to simplify my life too.
Jamie: Well, I’ve got a special needs child who is two years old. I’ve got a thirteen year old, almost fourteen and that’s a nightmare. I love him to death though. And then I’ve got a lawnmower guy, I told him two weeks ago that I’m going to do my own lawn. I bought a lawnmower and I’m going to do up until August. He says Okay, no problem. So he comes back a week later and I look out the door and he’s done the lawn. I’m like I told you I was going to do my own lawn because I’ve got high cholesterol and I’m going to get some more exercise. I’m always sitting in a chair. When you have money they don’t leave you alone. I have people who show up at my door and they’re yelling at me and stuff. They’re like how come you won’t show me how to do this? I’m like, are you a customer of mine? They’re like, no. I’m like are you a client of mine, do you know me? They’re like, no. I’m like, where’d you see me? They’re like, I saw you on this documentary or something. Do you see what I’m saying?
Andrew: Yeah, I see people like that, but then they say I want you to solve my life, then I’ll be a client of yours.
Jamie: I don’t need that, man. I bought a freaking 6,000 square foot house and luxury cars before I ever got into IM. So all of these gurus, they’re going down. Do you know what I’m saying? All of the people misunderstood what I’m about when I first got into the game. I understand, that’s fine. But now I think everybody is starting to understand.
Andrew: Is this your address? Hang on a second. I’m not going to say it in the interview. I’m not going to show it. I’m just putting it in Skype chat.
Jamie: No, that’s all right.
Andrew: What address is that?
Jamie: That’s me.
Andrew: This is so readily available online. No wonder people are coming to your house.
Jamie: Yeah, it’s the same thing as the star maps in Hollywood. Look, I’m not tooting my own horn. I’m not a star or something but, it’s the same thing. Once you’re in the mainstream and people are talking about you, how do we treat those people. Do you know what I’m saying?
Andrew: You’re smarter than that. You could have hidden this address from me. You don’t even bother.
Jamie: No man.
Andrew: You’re not worried for your life? I get worried.
Jamie: Hell no.
Jamie: No. I mean, I’ve prepared for that when I first started to see how crazy a lot of these people are. There’s degenerate gamblers who purchase my website and come to every class I do, then refund the whole thing. Then they go on the forum and say this guy is
Andrew: Do you have a gun?
Jamie: Yeah. Why?
Andrew: Because you said you’re prepared for this. It just blows my mind that all of your stuff is readily available. I was going to tell people where they can go but then I thought if I tell them what page to go to
Andrew: (?) jamielewis.com at the end of this interview.
Jamie: Yeah. I don’t hide things. When I saw that when you try to hide things, that’s when people come to your house. Do you see what I’m saying? So I don’t hide anything, I’m just like, straight up, you know, ask me the hardest, you know.
Andrew: Even your e-mail address is, I thought, well maybe he’s using a fake e-mail address online. It’s the same one that I’ve got on my notes. The same one that I just sent you something.
Jamie: Yeah, no dude, that I definitely tried my best to…
Andrew: That is time to change you’re saying.
Jamie: Well, you know, my website if you ever see that email address on my website or…
Jamie: Yeah, I mean you wouldn’t see that address either, that makes no sense.
Andrew: Do you want me to tell you where I saw that so that you know what to do with it? I’m not going to tell everyone else.
Jamie: No, that’s alright, I mean it’s like it’s…
Andrew: You just know that’s it’s out there.
Jamie: You know you can’t worry, dude, you can’t worry about stuff like..
Andrew: I worry because I don’t have a gun.
Jamie: I’m done, I’m done worrying. I mean I’ve been through the worst, so I mean, you know, that’s just the way it is, people know who I am, know where I am.
Andrew: What’s the worst? You grew up homeless?
Jamie: Did I grow up homeless?
Andrew: Did you grow up homeless? What is this that I hear? Your mom, you…
Jamie: No, no, I didn’t grow up homeless.
Andrew: I moved to Boulder Colorado with my mom and a huge community of homeless teenagers and people who were doing drugs ended up being home schooled for two months.
Jamie: Yeah, that’s not me, I wasn’t homeless. They were all squatting in my house.
Andrew: Homeless people were just squatting in your house?
Jamie: I mean they were my age. Boulder has a very big population of homeless children.
Andrew: I see, so why did they end up in your house?
Jamie: Do you know why I think it is? Yeah, I won’t get into it. It’s political.
Andrew: Why did they end up at your house?
Jamie: That’s just my personality.
Andrew: Even when you were a kid, you were just letting homeless people hang out?
Jamie: Yeah, I don’t know, it’s like the type, I tell my student’s this, my father is like a socialist, so he’s always told me to just let people, you know, he was just hanging out with the Dalai Lama the other day, at Westcon in Danbury Connecticut, you know he comes back, and we start arguing, and he’s like, are you ready to give up all your possessions?
Andrew: Do you want him to? He wants you to?
Jamie: No, we argue all the time about it. I’m like, man, you know, I’ve worked pretty hard for my possessions and I’m not even asking for any more. I’m fine with just retiring. I should go out and mow the lawn. That’s what I should do, you know what I’m saying? I should mow the lawn.
Andrew: Is your Dad a professor in music, in music education?
Andrew: I’m Googling this stuff, just to keep checking in because it just sounds so outrageous. Yeah, there it is. It’s on West Connecticut State University, there was a news story there about your Dad and, where’s the Dalai Lama, Dalai Lama will speak at a public forum to be held at 1:30 to 3:00 pm October 18th, etc.
Jamie: No, he gets outrageous, I mean, I’ve been at New York Times Manhattan String Quartet, USSR, you’ll see a lot of stuff. I mean, I went with them on every tour.
Andrew: Meanwhile, you are a Republican, who doesn’t even like Obama.
Jamie: No, I don’t like Neocons, I don’t like wars, I don’t like bigotry, I don’t like, you know a lot of overzealous religious wars, stuff like that. I’m not racists, so I don’t agree with Neocon Republicans, I don’t agree with Democrats either because they seem like they are a bunch of uninformed, they think that they’re your friends, they think that the corporate tyranny is your friend. So they’re a bunch of, you know, for lack of a better word, idiots, and that’s what I think. So idiots and assholes. That’s it.
Andrew: I could ask you questions all day, especially about your personal life, and I think it’s time for me to end this interview and tell people that if you want the business stuff, they should go to jamielewis.com, that’s the best site to go to.
Jamie: Yeah, and then they can find links to other stuff, too.
Andrew: They could just Google you and just keep doing what I’m doing endlessly finding information. Plus you write long online, it’s the jamielewis.com/biography, is going to give people, you know what toss that on your Instapaper or Kindle and read it in your spare time. It’s a fun read.
Andrew: It’s a long read.
Jamie: Yeah, and stay tuned in the site, there is definitely going to be a lot more cool stuff going up, we just started it. So do you like this interview?
Andrew: I like this interview a lot, and I like that you told me right from the start hey most people ask boring questions, so go ahead, and ask whatever you want, and I said I’m going to challenge you, and you said, sure go for it. And so the first question was about what I saw in the background and we kept going from there.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Did you like this interview?
Jamie: Yeah, I liked it. I thought it was good. I thought you weren’t hard enough, but..
Andrew: Oh really? You want me to be harder?
Andrew: You’re just opening yourself up now to the comments, and they’re going to hear this and they’re going to start saying stuff.
Jamie: Well, I don’t know, I think that’s good.
Andrew: Where should I have hit harder? I want to be a better interviewer.
Jamie: Well I don’t know the extent, remember how I kept asking, can I mention names and stuff, so I don’t know the extent. I don’t know what, you haven’t told me a lot about what you do either so you know, you could have, you should check out the webinars man, I mean there is lots.
Andrew: Alright, where is the webinar?
Jamie: You know, IMjamie the classes.
Andrew: IMjamie, I first saw video and I couldn’t play it during the interview.
Jamie: IMwithjamie, yeah.
Andrew: It’s like the letter I, the letter M, withjamie.com.
Jamie: Yeah, it’s like internet marketing with Jamie.com.
Andrew: Alright, we’ll leave it right there. We’ve given people a lot to think about, a guys in the audience…
Jamie: You can see stuff on YouTube too, at Jamielewismarketing, it’s pretty different, I’d say it’s different.
Andrew: Alright, I’m looking forward to the feedback. Thank you so much for doing this interview. Thank you all for watching, reading, listening, being a part of it. Bye guys.