How Can You Manipulate The Media To Promote Your Self-Interest? – with Ryan Holiday

If you catch no other part of this interview, make sure you hear today’s guest confess to vandalizing billboards. If you want publicity, you’ll see why that story is important to you.

Ryan Holiday admits that he manipulated the media for clients like Tucker Max, Robert Greene, and American Appareal. He breaks down his process for deception in this interview and in his new book, Trust Me, I’m Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator.

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Ryan Holiday, Media Strategist

Ryan Holiday is media strategist for notorious clients like Tucker Max, Timothy Ferriss, and Dov Charney.

 

Raw transcript

Mixergy's audio transcription is done by Speechpad

Andrew: Coming up in this interview, watch how vandalism helped this guy

build a major brand. If you’re not doing anything like this yourself, you

should at least understand how your competitors might be using it to build

their names. Also, listen to the tricky thing that today’s guest says he

does after someone writes about one of his clients and you’ll hear me urge

you to do something similar in this interview. Get ready. All that and so

much more coming up.

Three messages before we get started. First, do you need web design work?

Go to launchtower.com. It’s run by Alex Champagne, who has helped me with a

lot of last minute projects at Mixergy. Now he’s running a design company

at launchtower.com. Second, do you need a lawyer who actually understands

the startup world that you live in? Go to walkercorporatelaw.com. I’ve

known Scott Edward Walker for years so tell him you’re a friend of mine

when you go to walkercorporatelaw.com. Finally, what are the big challenges

that you have as a founder? Go to mixergypremium.com and take courses by

proven entrepreneurs who want to help you get through your toughest

challenges. mixergypremium.com. Let’s get started.

Hey there, freedom fighters. My name is Andrew Warner. I’m the founder of

Mixergy.com, home of the ambitious upstart. How can you manipulate the

media to promote your self-interest? Ryan Holiday says he did it for

clients like Max Tucker, Robert Green and American Apparel. He breaks down

his process for deception in a new book called “Trust Me, I’m Lying:

Confessions of a Media Manipulator”. Great book. Ryan, welcome.

Ryan: Thanks for having me. I’m a big fan of the show.

Andrew: You and I started before we recorded. We talked about this myth

that the average person who is listening to us might have. What is that

myth?

Ryan: I think the myth started with Web 2.0, which is essentially the idea

that if you do great stuff, people will hear about it, that the web is this

big meritocracy and what it’s looking for is finding good things and

showing them to people and it will be embraced by the horde and they’ll

love you. I’ve discovered in my work that it’s fundamentally not the case.

We live in an attention economy. There are so many things fighting for

people’s attention at any given moment, that the chances of your stuff

breaking through are just that: it’s a random chance. If you’re an

entrepreneur, author or writer you’ve invested way too much to leave your

success up to chance. What I do for clients is figure out how to guarantee

attention for their work because they deserve it.

Andrew: Actually, I even see it here in my interviews if I do an interview

on how to sell, an interview on how to market, if I do an interview on any

of that stuff, real hardcore developers, guys who run great businesses will

often email me and say, ‘I’m just going to focus on my business. This stuff

is just online marketing. It’s scummy. It’s not us.’ You see it often in

hacker news if you’re in the tech industry at all. Good point: if you build

it and nobody knows about it, what’s the point? No one’s going to try it.

People aren’t going to embrace it and it won’t grow. True?

Ryan: Sometimes, if you build it they’ll come. But sometimes they won’t

and is that a chance that you want to take? I don’t think so. Especially

when you’re playing with your own money or you’re playing with other

people’s money. It’s just risky business.

Andrew: You’re not one to wait for things to happen to you. You make things

happen for yourself, including that time about the vandalism. What did you

do and then how does this play into what we’re about to talk about in this

interview?

Ryan: One of the authors I’ve worked for is the number one New York Times’

bestselling author, Tucker Max. He’s a very controversial figure, to say

the least. What we realized is, look, we had adapted his book into a movie

and what we thought was, obviously, we’re going to do all the traditional

marketing things for a movie. We’re going to do a big ad campaign, we’re

going to do previews, we’re going to do all that. But, what if this movie

was one of those movies that everyone was talking about because it was so

controversial? It was adult and risky and profane and all the things that

had spread him from being a random writer on the internet into a household

name. We thought, “How can we guarantee that this conversation happens?” It

was probably going to happen, but we wanted to make sure that it happened.

What we decided was we were going to create that controversy, and that’s

exactly what we did. I mean, it was denounced in the editorial in

Washington Post . . .

Andrew: Well, let’s get into it. One night, dark, you drive out there, you

see his poster and you do what to it?

Ryan: So, what we did was we bought billboards all over the city of Los

Angeles, Chicago, New York, and we wanted to start a campaign where other

people were vandalizing those billboards. So instead of leaving that to

chance like we’re saying, I went out there, my assistant, my girlfriend,

and myself, we went out there, we put these profane stickers on the front

of the posters. It’s essentially accusing him of being a rapist, but in a

very funny way. As funny as that can be. And then we took photos of that

and through an anonymous email I sent it as a tip to a bunch of very big

local blogs, and of course they ran it because who would do this to

themselves, right? It’s sort of incomprehensible, but that’s exactly what

had happened. They ran the story, and a week later, we had a group of

feminists in New York City organized an enormous campaign to vandalize the

things all over Manhattan, and it was covered by the Village Voice, and it

sort of started a nationwide campaign to vandalize those billboards.

Andrew: But you did it with your girlfriend. Tucker was there too, he was

also vandalizing . . .

Ryan: No, no, no, Tucker was out doing something else.

Andrew: Right. OK. This is your job to promote. I see these on a blog

called Curbed. The ad said something like, I guess the movie was called I

Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. It was a sticker put on that says, I hope

they serve rape axe in hell, which I didn’t understand what it was until

that blog explained it. Apparently it’s something that you put in you to

prevent rape. It’s pretty nasty, and it was right there. And that was your

sticker, you went to Kinko’s and you bought it.

Ryan: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Andrew: OK. There’s another one and, Little Italy will not tolerate your

bigotry, go fuck yourself, va fan culo [SP]. You created that sticker and

you put it on your own billboard.

Ryan: No, no, no, just the first one was me, and then the rest was all

real.

Andrew: Oh, that’s what somebody else did?

Ryan: Yeah, of course. That’s what happened.

Andrew: Oh, I thought that one was so fake. What person who’s into

vandalism would use the phrase, va fan culo. I thought that’s just . . .

All right.

Ryan: I don’t know. Not a very original person, but I think that’s sort of

the whole idea, is that you can sort of create this faux outrage that

becomes real outrage. Because people are upset about things and they look

for ways to express themselves. But if you can nudge them in the right

direction, you can harness that energy around your product or idea.

Andrew: OK. And part of your nudging is you would go to gay and lesbian

groups and you’d say, not as Ryan Holliday, you’d say, look, this stuff is

going on, this movie is going on out there, somebody needs to do something.

And you would push them to protest. Yeah. Right. Like they actually don’t

like him And they really do hate him and his work, so the idea was like,

OK. How can we, they’re probably not going to like it anyway, so how can we

turn that negative into a positive. How can we turn them into almost anti-

evangelists for the work. In the sense that, I think Robert Green says this

in the 48 Laws of Power, is as long as they spell your name right, it

doesn’t matter, and so that’s what we’re thinking. The alternative is them

not talking about it, and they definitely weren’t going to go see the

movie, so what if we use them to sort of create a media firestorm that

generates attention and is eventually seen by people who do find it funny,

who do think it’s interesting.

Andrew: And dude, you don’t have to apologize for any of this here. I want

to learn this stuff. I want you to be as opened and comfortable as

possible. So . . .

Ryan: Oh, I’m not apologizing.

Andrew: Good. Good. And what you did was something that you called trade

up the chain. You went to a local blog, is Curbed LA considered a local, it

is, of course, a local blog?

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, it’s national network, but it writes about individual

cities. So in that case, we go to someone like Curbed, we give them this

little story that to them is more than a little story because it’s about a

national figure doing a local thing. So it’s sort of the perfect, ideal

thing for them.

Andrew: And when you say you go to them, talk about how you do it. How do

you get Curbed to be aware of what you did and you took a photo of from

inside your car and you made it look like someone was driving by and saw

this.

Ryan: Right, so what I like to do is I went to see what the site tends to

generate on their own. And it turns out in this case they like sources from

tipsters. They like things that look like real news. These are bloggers,

but at the end of the day, they want to be cutting-edge real journalists,

so how can I give them something that makes them feel like they got that,

when really they’re not doing any work. And so sending them this anonymous

tip which is what I did. I sent an anonymous tip from a fake email address.

I sent the same fake tip to two different blogs who both independently

picked it up. And from there, those sites are read from people all over the

country, from reporters or whatever, and shortly thereafter got picked up

by the Village Voice, and what I realized very early on was, where do

reporters get the news? They get the news from blogs. It’s not like

reporters are out there pounding the pavement, looking for news or

overhearing gossip. They read blogs, and so I found a very clear link

between small blogs and medium sized blogs to big blogs, and then, the

national press.

Andrew: And that’s trading up the chain. Start with the small, move on,

and you say, focus on the local first, ’cause that’s easier to get, then

you go to legacy. So once you have the local guy writing about you, you go

to Legacy. Legacy means, like Forbes magazine, and I notice this too,

Forbes Magazine, Ink Magazine, to some extent, the Wall Street Journal,

maybe they’re not a good example. What they have is bloggers that are just

out there to create crap content in some cases, I’m not speaking

necessarily of those. And the blogger gets to work for free in exchange for

having his name on that website so that he can post to being a blogger for

that website, and what that site gets is a ton of content and the more

content you get, the more traffic you get, and so it’s an interesting trade

for them, the way you manipulate the situation is by doing what with this

Legacy Media’s blog?

Ryan: Yeah. So you realize those people have something you want, and you

have something that they want. And so what you want is access to that

prestigious name, like getting something, you get something from a local

blog that only has so much sort of relevance or significance, but now

Forbes Magazine is writing about it. Or a site affiliated with CBS News or

something like that? Now all of the sudden you’ve got a real story. So what

I do is I try to get those local things on the radar of these other people.

So I email them if I have a personal relationship with them. Or maybe I

send an anonymous tip, or I make that local thing so popular, maybe it

blows up on Reddit or Stumbleupon or something like that, and they see it,

and they’re going to want to popularize something they think is small and

contained. So the local news is a great example because stories by local

affiliates often get picked up by other affiliates all over the country if

there’s some sort of larger angle. So it’s like, you know you get something

picked up in Austin, Texas, the next thing you know, that same story is

running in Houston. And now you’re sort of, another step above it in the

chain.

Andrew: OK. So now see how the chain works. Go simple, show it to the

bigger, go on, go on, go on until you end up on TV which is what happened

to Tucker.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: One of the thing you said in the book is, you need to create a

strong story, and I wrote a note to myself to come back and ask you this,

because that’s not so easy to figure out that hey, we’re going to vandalize

our own posters, and then we’re going to come up with an angle for the

local press, so it’s not easy. And some of the other things you do in the

book, or you talk about how you did in the book, it’s a significant part of

this process. How do we come up with these kinds of tactics with this kind

of creativity?

Ryan: Well, first, I’d say it’s actually a lot less intimidating than you

might think. So today if you wanted to be in the New York Times, or

thinking about the New York Times, like the print newspaper, they can only

run so many stories a day. So if they write about you, that means they’re

excluding someone else. So in a way they’re doing you a favor by writing

about you. Blogs have an infinite amount of space, and every time they run

a new article that’s sort of more money in their pocket. And so the way I

look at it is you’re helping them fill that black hole, that infinite

amount of content that they can fill. So you think about it from their

perspective. It’s much more of a seller’s market than a buyer’s market, the

way . . .

Andrew: Because they’re hungry to buy, but they’re not going to buy

anything. A lot of people in my audience and I email bloggers and say, hey

you should write about this, and we get no response. You do something

that’s clever, this cleverness, I’d like to see a breakdown of how you come

up with these story angles, of how you come up with this way of making

something that’s ordinary interesting.

Ryan: Well, I think the word angle that you use is very important, because

a lot of people think, OK, do an article about Andrew at Mixergy, and

that’s what they think, like that’s how they would picture . . .

Andrew: Right. They would email me and say things like if they want to be

featured on Mixergy , Andrew I just created this new iPhone app, you should

do an interview with me because I created it. Boom, and no one cares.

Ryan: Right. And what they don’t give you is an angle. They think, cover my

start-up. They don’t think, here’s a specific thing about my start-up that

can be news. You look for it, like a handle, to grab onto, and pick up the

whole thing.

Andrew: So, how do you find that handle?

Ryan: What I do is I sit there and I break down the works. So a book for

instance is a comprehensive hole made up of many parts. Each chapter is

usually about a specific thing. Maybe it’s a story about one person, and

then a story about some community and then a story about some event. And

then what I like to do is I break that down and I go, OK so we have Chapter

One. Who is Chapter One going to be interesting to? What kind of audience

could this particular thing be tailored to, and that’s going to always be

easier than just doing the whole. So let’s say I’m doing a book for Robert

Green. Like I did Robert Green’s book with 50 Cent. So that book has

multiple audiences. There’s the hip hop audience, there’s the self-help

audience, there’s the entrepreneur audience. And once you identify who you

want to be writing about you, then you think about it from their

perspective. What is it that they’re going to find attractive about this

thing. What is going to catch their eye, and then you only give them that

thing, because . . .

Andrew: But how do you come up with that thing. I mean, how do you, what

do you find that’s gonna catch their eye?

Ryan: I mean, what it’s really about is thinking about it from their

perspective. So what kind of stories do they write. What are things that

they’ve covered in the past. So, let’s say, Forbes, for example, loves to

write about successful people in hip hop. Well how can you take something

in your book and make what you have, which is about an unrelated thing,

into something that works for them. So, or when we’re doing something about

entrepreneurs, how do we break this down into sort of an inspirational

entrepreneur slide show that we can put on slide share, or something like

that. It’s not really about making anything up, so much as it’s about

rearranging it in a digestible form. But at the end of the day, these

bloggers need angles. They need, think about it from a headlines

perspective. What is going to make a fascinating headline that’s going to

get clicks, because that’s ultimately what they’re after. So if you’re just

saying, Robert Green has a new book out, that’s not very interesting unless

. . . [??]

Andrew: The angle still eludes me, the way to do it. But maybe the way I

can learn it, is by talking about some of the other angles that you’ve

worked in the past. Basically, you’re a creative storyteller that’s using

the world to write your story. So let’s see how, some of the stories that

you’ve told. And I like to just take this using one of the outlines that

you use in the book, which is you break down the tactics that you use and

others can use to manipulate the media. And tactic number one, you say, is

bloggers are poor. Help pay their bills, and you can’t just send them cash,

because that would be outrageous. That would get you in trouble. So, you

would do what at American Apparel to pay bloggers?

Ryan: So you think about it from the perspective that they are both a

writer and a business person, which is not usually how it works for the

media. Usually there’s a big separation between church and state. But you,

you’re both the host and the owner of the show. So, let’s say I really

wanted to get on your show. I’m not saying this is possible, because you

probably have way too many ethics, but what if I started out as a sponsor?

And I started emailing you, and we struck up a friendship and I started

telling you my story. You can use a business angle to open up a

conversation. So with fashion bloggers, one of the really good ways is to

start sending the clothes.

Now you have a conversation. They’re going to email you and say, hey this

doesn’t fit me, I really love that last thing you sent me, and now when you

have a new product to release, you shoot them an email and you say, this is

something new, would you write about it. And if it works, then it works,

and you essentially opened up many channels that give you access to the

media. And I think the other big thing to always remember, though, is many

bloggers are paid by the page, actually [??] or whatever. When you see how

many page views that the story did, that’s how much that blogger got paid.

And so, when you think about giving them a story, you realize that you’re,

in a way, giving them money, because if your story does heavy traffic, they

got directly paid from that. And that’s a conflict of interest that will

work to your advantage.

Andrew: All right. I get giving them clothes. I’ve actually seen bloggers

sit down and talk about the wines that they get because they were going to

review wines and it’s not just the stuff. The stuff matters to them. You

know. If they’re into wine . . . Sorry?

Ryan: It’s the status though, that I think really matters.

Andrew: Yes. Right. They want to talk about it with their friends about

how they’re so important that they’re getting these wine bottles, that

they’re so important that if they’re evaluating clothes I imagine, I don’t

have friends who are doing that, that they’re getting clothes. The other

thing that you said, you brought up a good point. I don’t take, I’m way

sold out on ads, and ads aren’t a big source of revenue here. But I have to

admit, as you say, that my sponsors, if they introduce me to someone,

because they become good friends of mine . . .

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: [??]. I pay more attention to it. Because I get to know them, I

lean on them sometimes and ask them for introductions to guests. It’s a

problem. I don’t think it’s a problem for me, but it’s a potential problem

. . .

Ryan: And, I think . . .

Andrew: I watch it.

Ryan: . . . in some cases, it’s actually not a problem, it’s actually

cool. What we did was, we went to a lot of these fashion bloggers really

early on in the development of that medium and we said, “Look, we’re a big

company, we have the resources of a big company. What can we do to help

you? What do you need?” And, so, we’re helping them, but we’re not asking

for anything in return. We’re just opening up channels of communication

that are then valuable. A lot of companies will send out products and say,

“If you want this, you have to write about it.” Now, I’ve never thought

that way because I think that when you demand something, that’s all that

you get. What I like to do is sort of build up almost a karmic debt, so to

speak. You send them products for a year and a half. Now, when you have

something that might be of interest, like you said, they’re going to be

more receptive and open to that idea. And, is it a bribe? I don’t know. I

just know that it works.

Andrew: You also say you got to invest early in the blogger, and you’ve

invested in other people and, I’ve got to say, when I read that, see I want

to be open with myself so that I could just keep improving here. There are

a lot of things that you point out in the book, like . . . when newspapers

don’t have subscription customers, there is an incentive to just keep

promoting crap headlines and crap stories because there’s, nobody’s

returning with revenue on a regular basis. You have to just keep hooking

them back in so that you can get revenue from ads, and I thought, we’re

doing that right because we’re not leaning on traffic to come in every day

and be manipulated. We’ve got subscribers who are keeping us going, and the

thing about subscribers is if you shovel crap at them, they’re going to

cancel their subscriptions; they’re going to walk away. So . . .

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: We have an incentive to do quality, so there’s something else that

you said that I’ve got to, that I’ve noted.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: We have an incentive to do quality, but there’s something else

that you said that I noticed, which is, you’ve got to invest in bloggers

early. You kind of did that with me. I looked back before this interview to

see, when did Ryan first email me? It was years ago, and you gave me great

people. You gave me Robert Green [SP], who I admire. You introduced me to

Tucker Max [SP] who sent me a bunch of traffic. It worked. Now, as soon as

you sent me that email, you saw how quickly I responded to you.

Ryan: I mean, here’s the way: a lot of times, people ask me, “How can I

find these influential bloggers? How do I know who they are in my space?”

My answer is always, “You don’t find them. You know who they are because

you care about this thing.” I’ve been watching your show this entire time.

It’s not like I put you down on a calendar, and I have a thing to send you

links. What happens is, when you add value to people, and you build real

connections, those connections are available to you if you ever need them.

So, the reality is, if you had the backing of a major media company behind

you, you probably wouldn’t need anyone to help you. You wouldn’t need

access to guests because, honestly, you’d be turning down guests. You’d be

calling up celebrity publicists and say, “Hey, do you want to come on my

show, whatever.” It’s sort of like, this is the system and so, you’ve got

to figure out who the important people are, and you’ve got to contribute

and add value because they’re not just going to magically write about you

because you want them to.

Andrew: And I do see that a lot where the people who are especially good

at this, over years, they just funnel me stuff. You know, I don’t need

stuff. What I do need, though, is they funnel me introductions, and that’s

hugely helpful. Next tactic, you say, “Tell them what they want to hear.”

And in that section, you say, “You got to tell bloggers, you got to tell

reporters what they want to hear.” And in that section, you talk about how

you got Gawker to write about American Apparel around Halloween. Can you

talk about what you did there, because there’s another example of how you

write the stories that go beyond individual blogs?

Ryan: Yes, so we had these photos that we couldn’t run for copyright

reasons. Essentially, we had done these Halloween costumes with the

American Apparel clothes that we couldn’t run because they were public

figures, like a Lady Gaga costume, let’s say, right? And, we’re not going

to pay Lady Gaga to be able to run that costume. So, I’m sitting there

talking to the photographer, and they’re like, “Look, we got to throw these

away. That really sucks.” So, what I thought was, OK, so these are the sort

of rejected, you-can’t-see material. This is like the stuff left on the

cutting room floor. Well, so, if I went to a blogger and I said, “Look,

here’s some stuff that wasn’t good enough to make our website,” they’re

obviously not going to run that. But, what if I pretended to be someone

that stole them from American Apparel, or I pretended to be an employee who

“found” them and was giving them away without permission? Now, it’s not

just a bunch of photos, which are good for content, it’s sort of this

exclusive news angle. I know that Gawker loves to run controversial stories

about American Apparel. Instead of trying to pitch them another way, which

is a fun, lighthearted story, I turned a fun, lighthearted story into a

newsy, exclusive sort of taboo story. It worked really well. From their

perspective, it worked really well, too, because it did almost 100,000 page

views. It’s sort of both laws, right? Because you tell them what they want

to hear and then you’re also giving them an enormous gift in the sense that

they got paid from that so they’re not very likely to go, “Hmm. What are

the chances of these being real?” because you don’t stare a gift horse in

the mouth.

Andrew: I think I’m looking at this post right here. This is on Jezebel.

“Exclusive: American Apparel’s Rejected Halloween Costume Ideas”. That’s

you? You got them to do that?

Ryan: Yes.

Andrew: Here are a few things I’m noticing about you. You won’t send things

directly. You’ll pretend to be someone else sending a tip. Stolen seems to

be a good one. Here’s something I stole that was on my hard drive that I

discovered on someone else’s computer, on their USB stick. That’s the kind

of stuff you want?

Ryan: Right. I mean, think about that iPhone leak that Gizmodo had. What if

they said, ‘Apple gave us an early copy of the iPhone’? Obviously, that

would be interesting and it would do traffic. But the fact that it was

stolen or found and there was a police investigation and Apple was mad

about it. All of a sudden, it becomes a story about the story and that

gives other people angles to write about it. That generates a lot more

attention and a lot more interest. If you think about it from the reader’s

perspective, now it’s more than just brand content or news about a brand,

it’s sort of behind the scenes and it’s exclusive and it’s cool. I like to

jam those angles onto what I’m doing whenever possible.

Andrew: You also find that if you can get one blogger to say something,

it’s a lot easier to quote that blogger. So if you get them to get the

facts a little bit off, you can them quote him?

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Can you talk about what you might say to Tucker before an interview

to get him to feed stuff into Wikipedia or how you use Wikipedia to

manipulate what people say about your guys?

Ryan: The dirty secret is that everyone uses Wikipedia as their general

fact-checking thing at this point in time. So if you control Wikipedia, now

all of a sudden, you control the facts themselves as far as the media or

even the general public is concerned. It’s not that you can put outright

untrue things on Wikipedia. But you can certainly lie by omission or lie by

inclusion. You can present a distorted picture of things by what facts you

choose to put there or what facts you choose to remove. Let’s say Tucker

wants people to know how many books he’s sold. Well, book scan access is

expensive and a lot of journalists don’t have it. So that’s not going to be

included on Wikipedia because it’s just not. So in an interview, I’ll say,

‘Tucker, I need you to drop in the interview how many copies of your books

are currently in print or currently have sold.’ Then he’ll say that and

I’ll take the link to that article and now all of a sudden, I can insert

that into Wikipedia. Now the fact that he’s sold 2,000,000 books, let’s

say, is going to be repeated on all subsequent interviews or reports about

him because this fact is not only out there, but it’s been verified by

Wikipedia. Of course, this is actually true in this case, but there’s a

gray area there that you can certainly exploit.

Andrew: Here’s what people exploit, and this is something I notice as an

interviewer in the startup space: anyone could be called a founder. If

you’re an early hire, you’re like a founder of the business. If you’re a

later hire who then created a new department within the business or a new

website within a business, you’re a founder of that site or maybe even a

founder within this business and all you have to do is just say, ‘I’m a

founder of that business’ or ‘I’m a founder within this business’ anywhere

and people just want to run out with the founder title.

Ryan: If you say it enough times it becomes true, right? The reality is

with these blogs, and this is what I mean when I say tell them what they

want to hear, who’s going to have time to call up the staff at mint.com and

verify whether this person was actually considered a founder? The reality

is that when blogs are pushing out 10 or 12 posts a day, they don’t have

time to do that. So they’re going to say it enough times that it

effectively becomes true.

Andrew: Yes. Because then the next person will do research and see it in

there and quote it and so on. Actually, I’ve had other founders, because I

have an audience of founders, I’ve had people tell me about their business

and then say, ‘Oh yeah, and I also founded this other company’. Well, they

don’t say, ‘I’ve founded this company’. They say, ‘I was a founder of’. The

actual founder will be in the other room and he’ll say, ‘What the fuck?

Wait. I was there. I hired you. I hired you later on and then I fired you.’

They’ll email me and I’ll say, ‘Do you want me to make this public?’ Except

for one case where I won’t mention it, except for one case, every founder

said, ‘No, it’s not worth it.’ because if you do say, you become this

jealous, egomaniacal fighter who nobody wants to be.

Ryan: Right. Who has time for these subtle shadings of the truth? Who has

time to sort through them all? There’s so much. Let’s say he gets it

corrected here. That doesn’t immediately correct it on the million other

sites that it’s since been repeated on.

Andrew: It doesn’t matter to anyone as much as it matters to the guy who’s

spreading this lie who needs that to give speeches as the founder and maybe

to raise money. Myspace has, or it did when they were doing well,

50,000,000,000 founders. Everybody was a founder at Myspace.

Ryan: Yep. Or a founding employee or whatever. Those sort of differences,

slight differences in word choice, make an enormous difference, especially

somewhere on Wikipedia. ‘Was a founder’ or ‘was an early employee of’ is a

huge difference but if you’re a reporter and you’re going to write

something, which one is more interesting to you? You’re obviously going to

go with the more ambitious take.

Andrew: You know what, though? I’m not here to be upset at the world. I’m

here to understand how the world works and then use it. Frankly, if anyone

out there is listening and they were a founder of, or were a founder member

or whatever it is, use the word games. You might as well, right? Don’t you

think?

Ryan: Basically, that’s the whole point. If you’re going to be playing by

some notion of honesty that no one else is playing by, you’re going to get

passed up very quickly. If you’re sort of saying, ‘Oh, I abstain from these

tricks or rules’, that’s fine. But the consequences are that you’re going

to be quickly outpaced by this arms race that’s going alongside you where

everyone is exaggerating, distorting and sensationalizing everything. All

of a sudden, the truth becomes very boring compared to this unreality that

gets created in the media. That’s sort of what I talk about in the book:

how do you play that game?

Andrew: You do talk about that a lot. Actually, you know what? I want to

take it back. I’m not sure that this is the way that people need to be. I

will say, at the very least, you need to be aware that this is the way the

world is working and if, for some reason, you’re not getting what you’re

looking for, maybe understand that this is an option for you or this is an

option that your competitors are using and you need to be aware of it. You

got sick of this stuff. You looked at yourself one day and you said, ‘I

don’t think I can live like this.’

Ryan: Obviously, it would be better if it worked a different way. I wish

that it way. When I talk to my clients, the first thing I say is to always

do the legitimate things first because it’s much better to get positive

press than it is to get negative press. Let’s say you can’t get positive

press. Then here’s the game that you have to play.

Andrew: By the way, did you really get sick of it? Here’s my take on this:

you said, ‘I got this system that works. If I go out and tell the world to

manipulate because manipulation works, I’m going to kill my credibility.

But if I say I’ve found the light, I am Paul who fell of the horse and

discovered God and Jesus, then you can say everything they used to do and

get all the credit and all the awe and teach people exactly how to do it

without any of the flack that comes from doing that.’

Ryan: Here’s the thing: If I wanted to keep doing these things, I probably

wouldn’t write a book with my own name on it that gave them all away.

Obviously, I think the proof is in the pudding there. If I wasn’t tired of

these things, I wouldn’t give away the secrets that make me a lot of money.

I’m doing it because I’ve seen the consequences and I don’t like systems

where everything is out in the open except for the public. That’s very much

what I’ve found on the internet. All the bloggers know. You talk to people

and they know this is how it works. Everyone knows this stuff. Then when it

comes to what they sell the public, it’s fundamentally different and that

never sat well with me. What I’m thinking is, “All right. I’ll pull back

the curtain and if people are cool with it, they’re cool with it. If

they’re not, they’re not.”

Andrew: I’ll skip around a little bit. The next tactic I think we should

talk about, tactic number six in the book, make it all about the headline.

I’ve got to tell you, the best guys who pitch me, they’re not necessarily

evil. This is a good one I think everyone should be using. They pitch me

the headline. Not a paragraph, and then another paragraph and then a link

to some other nonsense about them. They say, “Andrew, here’s the headline:

‘How I Lost A Million Dollars with My First Startup Because I didn’t

Understand Publicity.” Boom! I go, “Fuck no. Yes. Of course I want you on

here.”

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Now, I understand it.

Ryan: You don’t necessarily use their headline, but it catches your

attention. I almost think when I’m pitching people, the subject line is my

headline. So, what kind of headline am I going to put there that’s going to

make them stand up and take notice? Then whether they use that as a hint or

it frames what they ultimately write, that’s good obviously, but it’s about

getting their attention.

Ultimately, when you’re pitching the media, you have two audiences. You

have the general public, and then you have the reporters who are a filter

for the general public. Yeah, it’s very important that you always think. At

the end of the day, this thing has to be reduced down to a headline. If you

can show clearly in advance that that’s possible with your story, you’ve

already reduced a very large barrier of entry.

One of my favorite examples of this is Amazon. One of their policies is, if

you want to launch a new product or service inside of Amazon, you have to

write the press release first. Then, your supervisor or the department head

approves that thing after he’s seen how this thing is going to be

communicated and sold to the public.

Which is so different than how most entrepreneurs, artists, writers,

authors think about the world, which is they think their job is to make the

product and then their role in it is done after that. They hand in the

manuscript, and then someone else takes it from there. Well, that’s really

hard if you’ve handed them something that can’t be turned back into a

headline. So, I like to think about that headline first, and then I reverse

engineer from there.

Andrew: I’m going to come to tactic seven in a moment, because I think you

used this on me, and I loved it.

Ryan: All right, let’s see.

Andrew: Before we go into that, let’s just tell people who you are. I

meant to say this before. How the hell did you learn all this stuff? You’re

not a guy who is trained in PR. You’re not a guy with this kind of

background.

Ryan: No.

Andrew: How’d you learn this?

Ryan: Yeah. I’m completely self-taught. This was a system that I saw as an

outsider, and I thought, “How can I break it down and learn as much about

it as possible?” Basically, I saw myself as a grad student.

I said, “What professor can I attach myself to, who will let me use the

tools in his laboratory to experiment and learn?” First I did that with

Tucker, then I did it with a couple other authors, and then I did it at

American Apparel.

Andrew: What did Tucker teach you when you went to him for your MBA in PR,

in “bad assery”?

Ryan: Tucker showed me that bad publicity can be just as effective, if not

more effective, than good publicity. Sometimes, people are so close-minded

about something that they won’t give you a fair shot, and you’ve got to go

around those barriers if you want to get what you (?).

Andrew: How did he show you to do that?

Ryan: Tucker was the one who showed me how to send fake emails to people.

Tucker had been doing it long before I met him or he met me, and that was

something we sort of perfected together.

Andrew: So, what do you do? You just set up a fake account somewhere on

Gmail or Yahoo, and you use that to send out your messages to people?

Ryan: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: What did he teach you? Do you remember the first fake email he

showed you that he did, and what happened because of it?

Ryan: I don’t remember who it was for, but I remember his fake name was

something ridiculous. I think it was Brody Tanner, was the fake name, which

is such a ridiculous fake name. I know that it worked, and so I’ve since

made hundreds if not thousands of these accounts, or shown other people how

to do it.

I think one of the best tricks I learned for this is, because if you just

sat down and you wanted to make up a fake name, it would be preposterously

fake. You would make up this name that no one would think is real. What you

do is you take the first name from one of your friends, and then the last

name from one of your friends, and you just combine them. Then you have a

very realistic fake name. So, that’s how it works.

Andrew: I see. Here it is. I think number seven, “Kill them with page view

kindness.” After Tucker was on Mixergy, he tweeted out to me. I got more

clicks from that one Tweet where he said, he cursed somehow, but he said,

“This isn’t about girls or drinking, but it’s about the business.” Or

something like that. It was a really well-done Tweet. It got me a lot of

hits, a lot of hits, from a freaking Tweet.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Did you Tweet that? Did you write that?

Ryan: I didn’t write it, but that’s sort of something that I tell all my

clients. Okay. If someone gives you publicity, how do you turn one story on

a site into multiple stories on that site? You prove that writing about you

is good for them, either in terms of credibility, attention, or traffic, or

money, right? So, let’s say you get a story on TechCrunch. Well, if your

start-up has 20,000 Twitter followers, why are you not sending that story

to them to get another 20,000 views on the story?

Andrew: It won’t be 20,000. So tell me how to do it. For the average

person, they’ll do that tweet and no one will click. Their mother and their

friend will click and they’ll get two more clicks at TechCrunch. You would

do it differently. Let me give you a specific example and tell me what you

would do. Two weeks ago I was on Jason Calacanis’ program. Basically, I

went on to give an opinion. He read the news, I gave opinions. We went back

and forth a bit. I thought, ‘Hey, you know what? I did a good job.’ Then I

thought, ‘You know what? I should post it on my site.’ But I said, ‘What

the hell is the connection to my site? How do I do it? Do I just say, hey,

this is it?’ No. Ryan Holiday would find some angle that would piss people

off and make them have to go over to Jason’s site to see what it was that

irritated them to get them interested. What would you do? How would you

find an angle to make it interesting on my site so that then people would

go to his site and he’d be proud to have me back on?

Ryan: What’s the most interesting moment in that entire interview and how

do you distill that into the Tweet? It’s not ‘Hey, check out this long-ass

interview with me and some other guy you don’t care about’, which is kind

of how most people indirectly phrase things. It’s going to be “See me tell

Jason Calacanis this thing” and then all of a sudden, there’s a very clear

reason for me as a reader to click that thing. Or, better, a very clear

reason for me to retweet that thing. If you’re not doing that, you’re

leaving so much on the table. A lot of people, they just retweet the link

from the other publication and that’s cool, but it’s never going to spread

as well as coming up with something that will do well on that particular

system.

Andrew: It’s not something specific, but you’re putting a few thoughts in

my head of what I could have done.

Ryan: That’s the thing. I think people think I’m this magician and I have

these rules that work in every situation. That’s never what it is. What it

is, is looking at the thing and breaking it down and coming up with

something specific there. The book is about general strategies based on the

economics that are true in all cases on the internet. I can’t tell you how

to promote your specific startup unless I know intimately what you do and

how your space works. Someone who tells you that they can, I think, is a

charlatan because there’s too many variables at play that have to be nailed

down first. Who are you? Who do you know? What have you done? What is the

traditional coverage of this space like? Once you have those down, it’s

actually really easy to come up with what to do. But if it’s general, it’s

probably not going to work because it’s not going to be that interesting.

Andrew: See, I’d like a set of solutions that just work.

Ryan: I think we all would, right?

Andrew: But I would like something, like, here are 50 things that have

worked for Ryan and other people like him. One would be, what was it that

you said earlier about “I stole this. It’s not my information, I stole it

off someone’s hard drive.” That would be one. Another would be Alexis

Ohanian was on here. I interviewed him in front of a big audience in

Washington DC. He comes in wearing the jersey of the local sports team.

Boom. People freaking love him. Who the hell gives a rat’s ass about the

sports team? But he knows if he wears the jersey, people like him. Stuff

like that.

Ryan: What I’ve done is I’ve really looked at a lot of the studies and the

anecdotal evidence of what spreads and what gets attention on the internet.

There’s this really fascinating study of the New York Times, articles that

make the most popular list on the New York Times. What these academics

found is that the number one predictor of something spreading is valence,

so the extremeness of the emotion that it generates in the user.

It happens that the number one high-valence emotion is anger. Does this

thing make you angry? That makes a lot of sense if you think about it

because let’s say you read an article and your reaction was “OK. Good

article.” Are you going to tweet about that? Are you going to spread that?

No. So in some ways, satisfaction is not a very viral emotion. Anger is a

very viral emotion because you want everyone to know how angry you are

about this thing. In doing that, you’re spreading the content.

Another great example is sadness. It’s a very un-viral emotion because who

wants to send something to their friends that’s going to make them sad? But

making them laugh, making them say, “Aw”,”Cute” or “I love it’, that’s very

viral. ”

Andrew: Did you see the one I did? I took away the anger. Earlier on, I

said in the interview ‘People should be able to do this’. Then that would

have gotten people angry. That would have maybe pissed people off a little

bit, enough to talk about it. But instead, I took it back. The reason that

I took it back is the same reason a lot of people take stuff back. I can

think of someone like this. Let me develop this out because I want to hear

your feedback on this.

The smart thing for someone to do who says ‘I don’t have enough money to

create both an iPhone app and an Android app so I have to focus on iPhone

because that’s where there’s more revenue. The smart thing to say is, “I

just don’t have the money to do it right now. I’m just a one man shop.”

The aggressive thing to do is to get anger, that gets people to talk and to

spread and to say, “Screw Android. Android absolutely stinks. No one’s ever

going to buy Android. Google screwed up by not partnering with Apple. I’m

only focusing on Apple.” Now, you got people angry.

Ryan: Right. Now you have a polarizing issue that can be talked about

outside of just the product. Now I can talk about your product in terms of

a news story. And that is very valuable.

Andrew: Right. Now there’s a new story of a developer who doesn’t want to

care about Google, who doesn’t care about Google. You tie in any Google

issues back to this developer potentially. Here’s the thing. You lose

integrity. What about this idea that you want to go home and feel ‘Hey, you

know what? What I stand for I’m going to be proud that ten years from now

people hear that I stood for it first. What I stand for is something that I

really care about.’

Ryan: Well, actually, I’ll give you a great example of someone’s who’s done

that. Marco who runs Instapaper. He doesn’t. He designs his apps only for

Apple and he doesn’t do it for Android.

Andrew: Yeah. He recently had somebody else do it, but that’s been his

position for years.

Ryan: He’s not shoving that in anyone’s face but he is taking his stand

very firmly. He’s saying this is why I’m doing it. I believe in this. And

what happened? He didn’t necessarily piss off the Android people.

Andrew: Yes, he did.

Ryan: …but he loves them for it. He’s not being an asshole about it is

what I’m saying. Like he could get attention by being an asshole but

instead he’s just sort of he’s pandering to a crowd that loves him for that

stance and that’s very beneficial to him. And in your case you’re stepping

back and not embracing this sort of [??] anger aspect but you’re doing that

because you have a group of core subscribers who you don’t want to let

down. Let’s say everything on Mixergy was public and all you wanted was

[??] YouTube account. You’re damn well going to do that.

Andrew: But you then would have this thing that they weren’t proud of

anymore.

What do you say to somebody who says ‘Look, Robert Scobell does things only

that he believes in. He’s not trying to piss people off. Seth Godin has

built a long reputation where people would go to Kickstart and within hours

sending him tens of thousands of dollars without even seeing the product

because they believe that he’s an authentic person whose content is true

to what he really believes.

Ryan: Right. Here’s the thing. They’re playing a long game that transcends

the internet and I very much respect them for that. But other people don’t

have the luxury of doing that. Other people need to get attention and

traffic tomorrow. And what I’m sort of telling you is, like, okay, what is

the game that business insiders play? How are they doing it? And if you

want to get coverage on business insiders, here’s what you got to have to

do. I don’t necessarily recommend that that’s the best thing for you to do

or that it’s going to make you feel proud of yourself everyday. But if

business insiders’ coverage is important to you and your business, for many

people it is, this is a game you got to play.

Andrew: I’ve got to tell you. It depends, I think, on the stage in your

career because when I started out, my brother and I were seriously thinking

about how I can sell one of my kidneys on eBay and I would have absolutely

sold my foot just for anyone to pay attention to my stuff. And I think

there are times when you really have to be super-aggressive and then

there’s time when you have the luxury to sit back and say No, that’s just

beneath me.

Ryan: Look, when you’re an established figure, it’s about maintaining and

protecting your name. When you’re not, it’s about building your name at

whatever the cost. And they don’t have the luxury of doing some of the

things that people who have a name and also they have a lot less to loose

because what are you going to loose? You’re nobody. So, this is what you

got to do to get attention? Well, that’s what you got to do.

Andrew: Also, in Tactic #7, you talk about in that chapter sending emails

from fake accounts to the reporter who wrote about your guy so that it

feels like audience loves this guy. You got to report on him. Did I

understand that right?

Ryan: Or hates him. What matters is when they write about you, the last

thing you want is that story to show up with zero comments and zero

traffic. Like, you’re not getting directly paid by spreading that article

but you do benefit from it. So you want to send a very clear message that

you’re a good person to write about and when they write about you, it

benefits them. Always appeal to self-interest, right? When they write about

you, gets them traffic, attention, comments and all the things a journalist

craves.

Andrew: Hey, what’s your email address? Can people in the audience email

you? Do you feel comfortable giving out an email address?

Ryan: Yes. It’s ryanholiday@gmail.com

Andrew: Ryanholiday@gmail.com, guys.

Ryan: …holiday@gmail.com.

Andrew: Ryanholiday@gmail.com, guys. If you don’t have a fake email

address, create one now and send Ryan an email from it.

Ryan: (?)

Andrew: Let’s get the ball rolling with Ryan getting a fake email saying,

“Thank you for being on Mixergy.” We’re not done yet with this interview.

By the way, who wrote this book with you?

Ryan: Nobody. It’s just me.

Andrew: You writing it from scratch chapter by chapter?

Ryan: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: How do you…

Ryan: This is what I do. I mean, I was Robert Greene’s research assistant

for almost the last five years. I’ve worked with a bunch of authors. I know

how to edit books, this is what I do. For me, it was like, this is my job,

this is sort of my occupation. Writing about it was not as difficult for me

as I think it would be for most people. I actually pursued this in sort of

a very nontraditional way. I wrote the book in advance. I didn’t do a book

proposal. I sat down and wrote the book from scratch, and then I went out

and sold it.

Andrew: You got how much for the book?

Ryan: Let’s just say a large six-figure advance.

Andrew: You told me in the email, it’s online. Why aren’t you saying how

much it is?

Ryan: You’re not supposed to disclose what your advance is. It’s not just

a taboo, but contractually you’re not supposed to say it publicly.

Andrew: What happens if you email me the number?

Ryan: I don’t know. Who’s to say that I did this?

Andrew: [laughs] Well, here’s beyond what you emailed me. My researcher,

boy, they did a good job with you actually. I got some really good stuff. I

wanted to confirm some of the things in the book, and they sent me links to

it. They sent me links to other stuff. They sent me links to the fake, to

the failed business that you had, I guess the day that it launched.

Actually, was it a failure, the business that you launched, Fail Dogs that

you sold to I Can Has Cheezburger?

Ryan: Yeah. I mean, it was a popular internet meme site. I guess, it

worked okay.

Andrew: It did okay. How much money did you get for that?

Ryan: I’m not supposed to say that either?

Andrew: I am Ben Huh’s [SP] representative here. He will allow you to say

it. How much roughly?

Ryan: I don’t know. I just talked to Ben the other day. I don’t think he

wants me to say.

Andrew: All right. $500,000 is what my researchers here say that is all

over the Internet, the estimate of how much money you got. What did you do

with the money? Whatever the money is, what did you do with it?

Ryan: I put it in the bank. Money is not the thing for me. I’ve always

done really well. I mean, I started doing well when I was like 17, 18 years

old, still in college. For me, the money has been nice, but I don’t want

anything, so I just put it in the bank actually.

Andrew: Let’s see, is there anything else? What else did I miss here about

manipulation, how to that you think we should include?

Ryan: Let’s see here. I think one of the big ones is you’ve got to be

aggressive. You’ve got to go out and find where you want to get coverage,

and you’ve got to make that happen. Again, they’re not going to come to you

until you’re a big deal.

Andrew: That’s not specific enough. How do I become a big deal? All right,

let me try this?

Ryan: Okay.

Andrew: What I’m learning having done these interviews is, people who seem

really good at stuff, there’s a lot of just try to be good and fail, try to

be good and fail, and then boom. It pops. The best example I think that I

can come up with is Andrew Mason of Groupon.

Ryan: Okay.

Andrew: I did research on him, I saw the guy try to get attention with

these weird videos. I might have even seen him in his bedroom in his

underwear sitting on his bed, just shooting video online. I looked at his

[tech run] charticle from when he launched, he was earnest going in there

and responding to every comment.

He was trying to find his voice, trying to find the way to promote his

business, but also to learn how to speak with this crazy voice that people

now see that think is just natural. It took him a while.

Ryan: Right.

Andrew: Guys like the people you represent, guys like you, do you just try

a bunch of things like, “I’m going to try to be outrageous and if it fails,

great. I’ll learn what didn’t work, and then I’ll try it again and again”?

Ryan: Absolutely. Right.

Andrew: So, tell me about some of the early failed efforts for you to get

attention in an aggressive way.

Ryan: Here’s the thing. I do stunts all the time for people and they don’t

always work. The media doesn’t always bite. Then you move on and you do

another one. For instance, for Tucker’s last book, we had this idea. You

know those services, like sponsored Tweets where you can pay celebrities to

Tweet things? So, we thought it’d be really funny. We were going to pay all

these celebrities to say these offensive things, and it’s going to get a

ton of attention. So, we did it. Most of the Tweets got rejected. We ended

up getting some coverage for it, like we got picked up on Forbes, and [In

Crushable], and a couple other blogs. It did well. I mean, it was seen

probably 500,000 times, and that’s great. My expectations for that stunt

were much bigger than what actually happened.

Then there was another one that was more of a throw-away that sort of

started out as a prank, but ended up being enormous. That was when I tried

to name a Planned Parenthood after Tucker. That all came from a joke in his

book, which was, “I’ve paid for so many abortions, they should name a

Planned Parenthood clinic after me.” And so, I thought, what if we actually

try to do that and my thinking is like of course, no one will ever allow

this. Who would allow? But Tucker got really serious at it. He thought

like, “You know what, like, I have to give a bunch of money to charity this

year anyway. What’s the harm and so we did it, when we tried and we got

pretty far in the process and then it ended up getting rejected but it got

rejected in a very public way ending up getting a lot of attention. And so

that’s story about which I thought was going to be a joke ended up being

viewed million of times and what seems all over the internet like that

picked up essentially every major media outlet that you can think of. And

so at the end of the day, it’s a point game and it’s about taking chances

and then following the ball wherever it goes. So you know that the twitter

stepped in go, so we abandoned it and moved on to something else.

Andrew: What’s another one that failed?

Ryan: Another one that failed, maybe early on when you’re just getting

started and wanted to do something powerful. I’m trying to think, here is

the dirty secret, it works a lot. There is not a lot of failures because

when you do your research and you know what these people are looking for.

They buy like a lot of the time. For American apparel like I tried to make

controversial ads that I thought everyone would talk about and nobody did.

More often than not what actually happens is something that I didn’t expect

to be controversial happens to blow up and get a lot of attention and then

I’m doing the opposite, I’m doing damage control. How do I convince this

blogs to stop writing about this thing because it’s not true and may they

don’t want to stop because it’s in their best interest to keep chattering

about it. So that’s possibly, it’s not more like I tried to do something,

it failed, a more like, I didn’t expect that this thing was going to be

controversial and it ended up being an enormous scandal.

Andrew: Here is one I like that you did. You Photoshop ads on to

screenshots of websites to get coverage for the controversial ads that

these guys supposedly ran but they never did.

Ryan: Yes, still like we never thought what if we ran anti-Christian

website, anti-Christian ads on Christian websites. Not if we ran Christian

websites on like APS websites where people get really upset. And nobody

noticed, so like just know, like, either our budgets were big enough or

they saw what we were doing and nobody cared and so what, what I did was, I

was like, let’s just Photoshop a bunch of these ads and we will put all

three of them in all the different units and then we’ll just send that

screenshot to a bunch of blogs. And then no one write about it. And that

worked like a charm. And the fact that the screenshot was fake, nobody

cared because nobody is going to investigate. How you investigate a

screenshot. [??].

Andrew: Who did you run Christians sites, Christian ads for an APS site or

whatever you did [??].

Ryan: I think it’s still running, I think we ran them on like Glenn Beck

website. And we thought that like, we were running like, you know, god

isn’t real, you’re going, like

Andrew: And this is, this is for Tucker.

Ryan: Yeah, this is for Tucker.

Andrew: OK. Like Tucker is so bad ass that he is going to even, he is going

to run ads on Glenn Beck site.

Ryan: Yeah.

Andrew: You know, do it just admire hers attitude on life like he can say

whatever he wants. There is no hesitation.

Ryan: Yeah and here is the thing. He is very authentic about it, like he is

not, obviously he does some of it to get attention but these are things

that he believes and he doesn’t care that people don’t like him because he

believes in it and I think that’s something that people can emulate. You

don’t even to want to be him and I’m not like him at all. But that is a

mean we don’t see eye-to-eye on sort of being who you are and embrace it.

Andrew: I found him to be one of the nicest guest that I interviewed. I

expected him to say all kind of our radio stuff and be outrageous sort of

push me towards. But he saw where I was going and he, he just picked up on

the viable where I was going in way that some guest don’t. Here the

confidence to say. I don’t literally talk about business but I can go there

and I can talk about business and be in that world and fully be myself and

that is a gift that I know lot of people I interviewed just can’t do. If

they are not going to be on message, forget it. It’s a pain. He cannot be

himself and I think that’s really admirable. [??] he is been my mentor for

a long time so I see, I always seen that side of him and that’s like when I

was saying that only work for people that I believe in, I think it’s

difficult for lot of people to understand like. I believe in America

Apparel [??] someone like Tucker Max but that’s who I work for because I

have seen a side to them that I think is [??] unfairly portrayed in the

media and I think, OK, how can we go to work, how can we get them, what

they deserve and that’s what I do.

Andrew: All right so what’s next for you? Now that you have revealed all

this.

Ryan: Well I hope to see where it goes right, like I hope to see that this

gets the attention that it deserves that I think it deserves and I think

it’s more than the best things that I’ve ever done and I, it’s very

interesting for me to be on the other side of the equation. Now when I work

for someone like Tucker or Robert or Doug, I tell them what I think they

should do. But at the end of the day it’s their call. Now it’s my call

because it’s my book; I get to do what I want.

Andrew: What are you going to do?

Ryan: I’ve got some good stuff planned. I’ve got some stunts coming. I

lined up a lot of the press. I think you saw the cover of the book. I think

it’s super interesting.

Andrew: Really cool cover. Who did that?

Ryan: Aaron Tyler, who’s actually the designer who did Tucker’s books. The

thinking there was, and this again goes to the angle discussion we were

having, you look at business books. There’s a big stack of business books

behind you and they all look the same. I thought, ‘I want to make a cover

that says this thing is not like those other things.’ It’s about

differentiating yourself and taking a stand. That’s what I’m thinking with

the cover.

Andrew: What about this. This is something I told you I noticed in the

book. I made this interview into a how-to. The cover, and maybe the

headline “Trust me, I’m Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator”, maybe

it says, “Hey, I’m going to show you how I did it”. What it doesn’t say is,

and what there’s a lot of in the book, which is the history of media. The

understanding of the psychology of the people who are covering us, who are

in this world trying to make it themselves. Why did you decide to do that

instead of just saying, “Here’s a manipulation, here’s another one” and

focus it on manipulation through the ages instead of the media through the

ages, which is, at times, where it goes?

Ryan: Right. The thing is, if this was just a how-to book, and this is my

big problem with most media books, if I’m really doing this and I’m really

making money at it, why would I show people how to do it if that’s what I

wanted to continue to do? For me, that’s not the case. I don’t want to keep

doing this. I want things to change and I want to show people how it works

so they can hopefully do something about it with me. In this case, it’s not

a how-to book because I don’t want it to just be how-to. But, I also

realize that no matter how I write it or what I say, some people are going

to use it as a how-to book. Look at a book like “Liar’s Poker”, which is

about Wall Street. Michael Lewis talks about this all the time. He says

young kids come up to him and say, “Your book’s what made me want to work

on Wall Street”. He says,”Why? That’s the opposite of the message of the

book.” So I thought if people were going to do it regardless I might as

well harness that energy and use it to get the book in people’s hands who

maybe otherwise wouldn’t consider some of the more philosophical ideas in

it.

Andrew: What you’re saying is, “I’ve got a message on how the world should

work and what you guys don’t see about why it does work so poorly right

now. I need you to hear it but you’re not going to hear it if I tell you

that. There are tons of books written on topics like this and nobody buys

them. Instead, what I’m going to do is, I’m going to give it a great cover,

I’m going to give it an angle, I’m going to show you all the stuff I

shouldn’t be telling you, and also in the process, tell you about the

things I need you to know.”

Ryan: Yeah. You’ve got to meet people where they are. No one wants to hear

a condescending book of media criticism. They do want to hear a book how to

solve a problem that they all have. If, in that book, I can give them some

awareness of the consequences and I can show them a light they weren’t

ready to see otherwise, then I think the ends justify the means.

Andrew: I have to tell you, I really like the book. I went into it saying,

“I’ve got to read this book because I’m about to interview Ryan. But it’s

my spare time so I’ll save it for the office. Instead, I’ll read the fun

stuff.” And I just kept reading and reading it. Partially because you sent

it to me in a way that I could read it on my Kindle, which meant that I got

it on my Kindle device, on my iPad, it’s really well-done. I like the book

a lot. I’m surprised that you didn’t have a ghost writer. I noticed a lot

of the people I’ve interviewed actually have ghost writers.

Ryan: That means a lot to me, honestly, to hear that from you. I really

tried to write a book that I was proud of and I did it outside the system

because I was going to publish it regardless and it just happened that I

got lucky and I got accepted by traditional publishing. But I’m really

proud of it and happy. I don’t know that I would ever use a ghost writer. I

mean, I’ve gotten offers to ghost write books and I sort of thought, “Why

would I do that? I’ll write my own book” so that’s what I did.

Andrew: Let me say something to the audience about it if they want to go

further and what they could do, then I’ll come back and ask you an

important question, to me, that will hopefully show people how you work.

Here’s the thing, guys. If you like this interview and maybe want to go a

step further, we’ve got tons of courses at mixergypremium.com and there’s

one that I recommend for anyone who’s listened to this interview

especially. It’s PR for Startups, with Stella Fayman [SP] of FeeFighters,

where she breaks down how they got, at FeeFighters, into Business Week and

tons of other publications. What she shows you is how she finds the

reporters, how in fact she hires somebody on oDesk on the cheap to put

together a list of reporters for her. How she approaches them, how she

takes it step by step from idea to being in the media, and they did it over

and over again. Actually, speaking of Groupon, who I mentioned earlier,

they ended up buying FeeFighters. So, this business has a happy ending, in

addition to all the media that they got along the way.

If you’re a Mixergy Premium member, go to mixergypremium.com and look for

that Fee Fighters Stella course right now, called PR for Start-ups. If

you’re not, what are you waiting for? Thousands of people have joined. I

guarantee 100% that you will enjoy this. In fact, if you watch it and you

do enjoy it, and you say, “Screw Andrew, I’m still going to take advantage.

I want my money back.” Of course I’ll give you your money back. This is a

long-term relationship and I need to do right by you, and I’ll go out of my

way to do right by you. Go to mixergypremium.com. Not encouraging you to

lie to me and hurt my feelings and tell me that you didn’t like it, but I’m

telling you that you will like it. If you go to mixergypremium.com right

now and sign up, you’ll see for yourself.

All right, Ryan, you know what this interview is about. If you had to put a

headline on it, what headline would you put on it that would get all these

ideas the attention they deserve? Tough, huh?

Ryan: Yeah. It is, it is. Here’s the thing. It’s not like instant

inspiration. It’s, I think a lot of iteration and testing and looking at

words and research. I think it’d probably be something like, “How to Get

Attention for Anything…

Andrew: “How to Lie Your Way to Attention”? I like the lie and

manipulating part.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think that’s good. Let’s say it’s, “How to Lie

to Get Attention for Anything:”, although that might be a little wordy.

“Free Press Tips for Start-ups, Authors, and Artists”. I like lists. I

think lists are effective. They’re inclusive and they imply that this works

for many people. I like the use of a colon. It takes the book title there,

so I like that.

Andrew: Do you like the word manipulator or liar anywhere in the

headliner?

Ryan: It’s a long word that doesn’t necessarily…

Andrew: “How to Lie Your Way to Tons of Press”, “How to Lie Your Way to

More Press Than (?)”.

Ryan: There you go.

Andrew: You like stuff like that?

Ryan: Yeah, of course. Of course. You know who’s the master at this? Tim

Ferriss. Tim Ferriss is the headline generating machine. If you look, his

headlines are always fantastic. His book titles are always fantastic. He

does what very few people who are good at that follow up with, which is

when you read this stuff, you’re always pleasantly surprised at how good it

is. That’s very different than, I read the headline and now I feel tricked.

Andrew: Did you do work for him?

Ryan: Yeah. (?)

Andrew: Sorry. I was loading up a site and it took some bandwidth away.

You did work? What kind of work did you do for him?

Ryan: Yeah. Tim, I think, independently figured out a lot of the things

that I figured out early on. He and I sat down and we said, “Okay. Your

strategy for this thing is you want to meet every single blogger that you

can, and you want to get them to write about you when your book comes out.

Who should you talk to? Who are the influencers in your space?”

That’s a list that I broke down for him. Then, Tim went out and fucking hit

the road, and he met all those people. I remember meeting him. Tucker and I

met him, and we were sitting there talking. We were like, “You know what?

We’re going to help this guy out. When his book comes out, we’re going to

write about him.” We kind of thought we’d be the only one, and then the day

his book come out, 60 huge blogs all write about it on the same day. You’re

like, “That’s Tim.” Tim was out there working every single person

independently, and the day his book came out you couldn’t escape it. Now,

he’s a huge name.

Andrew: Are you still available? Can people hire you to do work for them?

Ryan: Yeah, of course. I actually have a marketing firm that sort of

specializes in these things, with people who sort of have been with me the

whole time. I’ve trained them in the same tactics, while I’ve sort of

focused on the bigger picture relationships and strategies.

Andrew: All right, man. I’m glad that you and I got to meet.

Ryan: Yeah, this is really cool.

Andrew: The book was a fun read. Congratulations on it. I’m looking

forward to see what you end up doing to promote your own book.

Ryan: All right. Well, look out. I think it’s going to make some noise.

Andrew: Where do we hear about it? Do we just watch it unfold in the

media?

Ryan: That’s the thing. If you had to go to a specific place, I wouldn’t

be doing my job. The idea is that I should be hitting you from a bunch of

angles, and it’s going to be everywhere. You’re going to say, “Who is this

guy? Where did he come from?”

That’s the idea, because that’s a very surprising viral emotion. Let’s say

you read ten blogs, and I get picked up on five of those blogs, now all of

a sudden in terms of your media diet, I’m everywhere. But really, I’m only

on five blogs. That’s a tactic that works very, very well.

Andrew: The book is “Trust Me, I’m Lying: Confessions of a Media

Manipulator”, Ryan Holiday.

Ryan: Spell the name right. If I’m going to be controversial, you’ve got

to say the name right or it won’t work.

Andrew: Ryan Holiday, you lying, manipulating son of a bitch. How dare you

manipulate us for all these years. I’m looking forward to be manipulated

even further. I want to see what you end up doing with this launch.

Congratulations on the book.

Ryan: Well, thank you very much for having me.

Andrew: All right, cool. Thank you all for watching.

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  • Irina

    Ryan Holiday is in my every RSS feed these past few days (Tim Ferriss, Rise To The Top, etc) :) But then yes – the book launch..

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    Yeah.

    So how did I do compared to them?

  • Bhargav Patel

    Gold. Pure gold. perhaps go into more details for premium? 

    Ryan, Pre-ordered this book. I wanted to learn your philosophies ;) 

  • http://twitter.com/RyanHoliday Ryan Holiday

    You were the best

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    What? You’re using your real name?

    Thanks for doing this Ryan!

  • Steven Stringer

    This site reached a new low.

    Guys like Ryan are the reason we can’t trust the news. And now Mixergy allowing him to show he did it so his methods could spread across the internet?

  • Beth Kuhn

    I was waiting for someone to say something about this.

    WTF? Now Mixergy is showing people how to manipulate blogs just so they could promote their startups?

  • Be Real

    Good writers don’t have to scam people to get noticed.

    I’m just saying.

  • http://www.coull.com/ Mcole

    Hey Andrew.  I’ve listened to around three or so of these Ryan Holiday interviews (interestingly they’ve been distinctive enough they haven’t gotten tiring when I usually don’t make it through a single one).  Two thoughts:
      * You come off as a bit aggressive at times during the interview.
     
      * You deliver a lot of additional new value from your personal insights on the subject.

    Overall, your version of an interview with him delivers a lot of new value and feels entirely original even if he covering similar subjects and stories.

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    How do I come across as aggressive?

    Which personal references were helpful?

  • http://twitter.com/RyanHoliday Ryan Holiday

    I agree. But I didn’t scam people to get noticed. I ran an experiment–that journalists will print anything an “expert” tells them–to prove a point. THEN I happened to write about it. 

  • Irina

    Hi Andrew – I liked the post at Tim’s blog – but then I always love the copy on his posts. Also, Ryan’s type of advice suits the blog well. Out of all the videos I’m your fan always for a couple of reasons:
    – your interviews are longer then most and thus more profound – and I come here for useful info vs just listening something on background.
    – you are very humble about yourself or mixergy.com and instead focus on the guest & your audience – really love that. There are too many hosts that tend to shift a lot of attention to themselves, constantly mentioning how they help the guest to promote him, etc.
    – you are not afraid to contradict the guest in a polite and non-awkward way. When speaking on such a controversial topic, your interview really stands out from others.

    Regarding Mcole mentioning you as being a bit agressive in this interview – I got a bit of that when you were talking about revenue numbers as well :) Nonetheless, I think you are doing a great job.

  • Lester Rodriquez

    Any idiot knows outrage + controversy attracts eyeballs, but if this is the kind of hollow philosophy Mixergy teaches, it probably practices it too. Weak. 

  • Frank Aaron

    I take issue with these tactics-deception, vandalism and a total lack of respect for people are never good business or tactics for the long-term. I think Andrew should reexamine his own sense of morality. He has a platform to use business to positively influence others. I wish he wouldn’t shy away from it at times. 

  • BeReal

    Does Ryan even remember what he said in this interview?

    From his comment below: “I didn’t scam people to get noticed. I ran an experiment–that journalists will print anything an “expert” tells them–to prove a point.”

    1 time might be an experiment, but this interview is full of examples of how he manipulated bloggers and reporters to promote his clients.

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    A lecture on being real by someone who won’t even use a real name here?

    You have nothing to be afraid of. You know I like good criticism.

  • http://www.coull.com/ Mcole

    Sorry for not clarifying a bit more.  The part that ‘felt’ aggressive (not towards the interviewee, but aggressively trying to steer the conversation) was your questions towards the vandalism part.  There was something slightly unnatural about how quickly you pushed for it during the conversation that felt aggressive.  I think you might have cut him slightly off from his thought to get it steered in the first ‘big moment’ to catch viewer interest.

    Obviously, the asking for revenue numbers was aggressive but that part is likely unavoidable if you want to get an answer.

    Mostly the interview didn’t feel aggressive.  However, it definitely slightly tainted the first part emotionally, but it didn’t detract from the interview overall.

    I really loved when you talked about your own experiences with getting traffic, talking with advertisers, and how you originally met with Ryan Holiday.  It was a organic way to provide unique insights in a way that was supportive to the interview and the person you’re interviewing.

  • http://bradmills.tumblr.com Brad Mills

    It’s always better for me to see the video than read the article, thumbs up!

  • http://www.coull.com/ Mcole

    Would you rather live in a bubble?  Most of the principles can be used fine without being unethical, it’s just going to be a little tougher and require more work (I.E. more content  to make up for less virality).  However, the fact the system is exploited so easily with consistency is important to know about.  At least for me the book popped the bubble on the entire system, exposing the wizard of Oz .  

    A great example of how absurd the news has become is this article about Ryan Holiday lying:

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/source-lied-york-times-holiday-forbes-185831470.html

    It’s a perfect example of the meta cycle which is ruining our ability to get legitimate news. 

    1) New York Times runs a lazy article taking Ryan Holiday’s quote (note: he uses his name so he’s obviously fishing to be discovered) about a unrelated subject.
    2) NYT release a correction about the article (Odd they discover this issue after the fact, I wonder if they perchance received an email telling them about it)
    3) Another news site finds it juicy and writes about the entire situation.
    4) Other news sites will want to weight on this story.

    Ryan may do extremely unethical things, but he is incredibly honest about exact who he contacted, what he did, and that there is this huge ‘security’ flaw in the news. Just being aware of how stupidly circuitous the news cycle really operates, is an absolutely critical insight that should be life changing in how you consume your content. 

  • Anonymous

    Andrew, just wanted to share that I came to know you and became a
    Premium Member on Mixergy because of your talk on Jason Calacanis. Cheers to that talk!

  • http://videorascal.com/explainervideo/ Andrew Page

    Andrew, your interviewing skills have come a long way since the beginning. I love tough questions and the back and forth. Great stuff! 

  • http://twitter.com/RyanHoliday Ryan Holiday

    I would also make the point that these machinations are happening right now, being done by people with a lot more at stake than a book. Part II of my book is an examination of what this system means and why it needs to be improved and changed. But I can’t make that case convincingly until you read Book 1: which has to prove that any of this actually occurs. 

  • Scott Brooks

    I have an eye catching, media manipulating headline for you guys…
    “Is Ryan Holiday Tony Robbin’s illegitimate child?  Ryan’s ever-impressive chin says YES!”  ;-)  Happy Friday!

  • http://www.mobileapptycoon.com/ Thomas @ Mobile App Tycoon

    Awesome interview!  Between this and Derek Halpern’s latest post on Social Triggers – definitely learning a lot from Ryan today :)

    Thomas

  • http://twitter.com/RyanHoliday Ryan Holiday

    I would click that headline

  • http://www.twoeyesopen.ca/wp Mike Taylor

    Andrew, did you forget to plug Mixergy Premium this time? Or perhaps I missed it.
    Great interview as always.

  • Martin S.

    Took me five minutes to figure out what the hell an “APS site” is.

  • Irina

    The site didn’t reach a new low – Andrew simply provided a different point of view, come on. I personally love to hear from people with whom I don’t agree entirely.

    Unless this comment is coming from Ryan with a fake name – you know, to get some debate going on.. :) then.. whatever.

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    To be honest, that’s something I’ve been struggling with as an interviewer.

    I feel like I need to start with a short story that will best show what this guest is about, so push to get there quickly. And it seems to feel too forced.

    I’ve noticed interviews that I admire go for that quick hook too, but they’re much more subtle about it. I need to improve.

  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    Thanks. That’s my goal. I don’t want the interviews to be about me.

  • http://twitter.com/sirjonathan Jonathan Wold

    This was very good. Very busy day and it was worth taking the time to watch it all. Given me a lot of food for thought and won over a first time listener to become a premium member!

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  • http://mixergy.com Andrew Warner

    Thanks!

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  • Todd Ruel

    Ryan, I totally agree with your philosophy about needing to develop a good story hook in order to sell your story to bloggers or whoever you’re pitching to.  To me, that’s just good storytelling.  So few people seem to good at doing it, and it sounds like you’re very good at it.

    However, I also heard the words “deceive,” “lie,” “manipulate,” etc. a lot during the interview.  Your defense seems to be that everyone else is already doing it.  Not a really strong counterargument in my book.  

    For me, I think your strategies to promote products are really good.  But I think your tactics are pretty lousy.  The tabloid, sensationalist approach is a race to the bottom.  Look what it’s done to American journalism in the last 30 years.

    There’s more than one way to run and promote a business or a product.  I hope most people don’t choose the sensationalist approach.

    —Todd Ruel

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