Andrew: Hey, thanks for doing this. I’ve been spending time getting to know your company a little bit. And to be honest, I still don’t fully understand it.
Justin: That’s a problem.
Andrew: Yeah. I understand what you guys do and I understand the clients you go after, but I’m looking at, for example, an old version of your site. I see that you weren’t on the site even though my team says that you’re the founder of Conversion Fanatics. I see Manish Punjabi and I see Neetu Punjabi as CMO, but I don’t think you’re on there.
Justin: You went to the Wayback Machine?
Andrew: Yeah.
Justin: What happened was is the brand when it originally started, it was started–Manish actually had sponsored a tradeshow and he didn’t have a brand to back it up. So, he created Conversion Fanatics. It just didn’t do anything. So, when we partnered up, we went with the Conversion Fanatics brand.
Andrew: I see. Okay. It became a brand new company that took on that old brand.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: And your clients are bigger, more established companies. I think I saw $3 million to $100 million in revenue?
Justin: Yeah, roughly. We worked all the way up to $200 million. But we find we work kind of in the sweet spot of about $50 million.
Andrew: Are there any on your site that I can look at?
Justin: As far as companies?
Andrew: Yeah.
Justin: We try to keep a lot of them confidential as far as the nature of the company. We keep it kind of anonymous when we use case studies, but we have loads of case studies.
Andrew: I think I saw the case studies on your homepage of somewhere, but you’re not listing the names of the companies, are you?
Justin: We’re not listing the names of the companies but we show specific results that we’ve gotten for companies and industries.
Andrew: Are these multi-level marketing companies?
Justin: No.
Andrew: The reason I got multi-level marketing was–again, I’m just hunting because I don’t know your business and we don’t have friends in common–I saw that from 2007 to 2009 you were a partner in Magnetic Sponsoring. I did a search for that. That brought up Mike Dillard and a bunch of YouTube videos. And in those YouTube videos for Mike Dillard’s program, there was a lot of multi-level marketing mentions and I just wasn’t sure what the connection was there.
Justin: Yeah. I was behind the scenes of that company. We’re in information publishing company that taught people in network marketing how to basically internet market.
Andrew: Okay. So, these are the kinds of people who might do Herbalife or Amway but maybe different brands.
Justin: Yeah. So, we were a generic solution for no matter what company. I sold that in 2009 back to Mike and our other business partner.
Andrew: I see. And that’s the business that you told our producer hit $8 million in sales?
Justin: Yeah. We were just shy of $10 million when I left.
Andrew: Mike’s another one I wanted to have on here but I didn’t understand his business well enough to do a solid interview with him.
Justin: Nobody does.
Andrew: Really?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: I’m glad to see that. I was worried about my research ability when I had to tell him I didn’t know enough.
Justin: No. He lives in town.
Andrew: San Francisco?
Justin: Oh, you’re in San Fran? I thought you were here in Austin.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: I thought you were here too.
Andrew: No. But April is who did the pre-interview with you.
Justin: Oh, that’s why. It threw me off a little bit.
Andrew: Okay. So then what kind of clients do you work with?
Justin: Software as a service, ecommerce, basically B2C if they have a viable product and are already getting results and B2B if they’ve already got traffic established.
Andrew: And what you’re doing for them is increasing their conversions on their landing page?
Justin: Yeah. We are crazy split testers. Basically we’re a split testing and optimization service.
Andrew: I see. Okay. Why don’t we just leave everything we’ve talked about up until now in the interview? Is that cool with you?
Justin: That’s fine with me.
Andrew: All right. I should introduce you, though, to the audience. You are Justin Christianson. You are the cofounder of Conversion Fanatics. We now know the origins of the business, but we’ll find out a little bit more about it. What’s one sentence that you would use to describe Conversion Fanatics? Usually I would ask that before the interview started, but since we’re leaving the pre-interview riff in, I might as well.
Justin: We are a results-driven customer-centric optimization company to help advertisers get more out of their advertising.
Andrew: Okay. And I should do this. This is what I usually do before the interview starts, but why not? Let’s just go into it exactly as I usually would. Joe needs this in order to align the audio and video. I always do this twice just in case for Joe. Also, the audience will get to see, have the camera pick up on my skin tone by moving the fingers close to the camera.
And at the top of the interview, I like to say who my sponsors will be later on and the first one is–you know what? I’ll just show a little bit of this–HostGator and I’ll tell you more about HostGator. The second is Toptal. If you need a developer, go to Toptal.com/Mixergy.
So, what kind of revenues are you guys doing now?
Justin: We’re in the low seven figures.
Andrew: How long did it take you guys to hit the first million in sales?
Justin: A year and a half.
Andrew: A year and a half? And this is in consulting?
Justin: In services.
Andrew: Consulting services. So, do you include the ad buys in your revenues?
Justin: No.
Andrew: You don’t?
Justin: No.
Andrew: Wow. Okay. Out of that the only expenses are any software that you need, office expense and people?
Justin: Pretty much.
Andrew: Wow. Impressive.
Justin: Yeah. Well, actually, it will be approaching–it’s forecasted through the end of the year, but we’ll be in very low seven figures.
Andrew: You know the other thing about you, Justin, that made me wonder is I’m looking at your Skype photo and it’s just you in this sloppy shirt with a face that hadn’t been shaved. It’s not like you and me now where it’s intentionally unshaved. It’s just like you woke up and you took a photo and you look like you’re 12 years old in that photo and I didn’t know who I was going to face here.
Justin: Well, that was actually taken probably–I’m looking at it right now–it was taken in ’09.
Andrew: Okay. I guess you don’t use Skype every day.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: But your camera is unreal. The camera and the lighting and the setup–why are you on camera so much that you need a professional setup?
Justin: I do quite a bit of videos.
Andrew: For what?
Justin: Just content videos. We push out a lot of content. I think we’ve put out close to 75 content pieces on our blog so far this year.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: I do some videos, kind of mix it in there. I’m talking about different topics around conversion optimization. So, the first few that I did weren’t very professional, so I went and bought a lighting kit and a backdrop and it just works out.
Andrew: It has a huge impact. Even someone like me who walks into a conversation really skeptical, I was really moved by that. So, as a guy with professional lighting and professional attitude about video, how do you feel this interview is going so far?
Justin: I think it’s good.
Andrew: It is one of my more unprofessional introductions.
Justin: Sometimes you’ve got to show the realism behind it, I guess.
Andrew: So, what’s the deal with you and Mike Dillard? I want to get into how you built up this consulting company that’s generating so much revenue fast. But let’s just talk a little bit about what you were doing before. You and Mike Dillard were doing what?
Justin: Publishing information. So, we had training products on lead generation, on traffic generation, on recruiting, all sorts. I think we had seven or eight different products in our product line, including some masterminds and some things on top of it.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: We built it up. He decided to expand. He started it back in about 2005. I was the number one affiliate for the product at the time and he decided to expand. We moved to Austin and expanded it, brought on me and my other business partner and we grew it I think 480 percent the first full year that we were all partners.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: And then we grew it again another 120 percent.
Andrew: What was top line revenue by the time you left?
Justin: Just over $9 million.
Andrew: Over $9 million?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: This was all selling information products and masterminds and that kind of thing to people who are in multi-level marketing business to help them grow their down lines and bring in more revenue?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Interesting. And what worked for you guys for bringing people in?
Justin: Various things. We were a majority affiliate-driven at the time. So, we had kind of a replicable system. So, we allowed people to promote and then our courses promoted the system and then they signed up for free and they could promote it to help generate leads for their business. I would say probably 80 percent of our traffic came from affiliates.
Andrew: Break that down for me. It seems like a much more sophisticated operation than most and I don’t fully get it. Let’s say I’m a user online who’s clicking around looking for ways to bring in revenue. You guys would get me how to be an affiliate and what would you do that was different from others?
Justin: So, we would sell you on a lead generation, just a normal, ethical bribe. Ours at the time, we’re talking ’07, ’08. So, it was a seven-day video series.
Andrew: Okay. You’d teach me to do what?
Justin: This was a seven-day boot camp, so a recruiting boot camp, so online boot camp. It would just teach you the art of–it led you down the path of attraction marketing, that you didn’t need to chase leads, bug your family and friends and then you would just push them.
Andrew: I see. I wouldn’t just be some random guy online looking to make money. I would somehow be connected to multi-level marketing when I came into your funnel.
Justin: Yeah, typically.
Andrew: Got it. Okay. And so anyone in multi-level marketing hates having to ask their friends and family and people who are just getting to know them to join their down line because it’s a turn off for relationships. So, you’re saying or your ethical bribe, as you said it, is saying, “We’ll teach you how to get people without having to do all of those needy requests.”
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Okay. So, I would come in. I would sign up. How do I become an affiliate of yours and help drive more people to you?
Justin: So, once you purchase the product, say you bought out front end product, which is a $37 book, you would be–chapter 10 basically in the book was all about the system to help you generate leads. We talked about a funded proposal where you advertise something to offset advertising costs to generate leads. We already built the system for them. So, then they would automatically become an affiliate.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: And create your account. You create your links. And then you’d go through the training process of using your links and promoting your links.
Andrew: To bring in now more people to your business.
Justin: Uh-huh.
Andrew: Okay. What about all these YouTube videos that I saw pop up? Even people who are saying, “Don’t sign up for Magnetic Sponsoring,” that was the company, they’re essentially promoting it, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: How did they all learn to create these videos that seemingly are anti-Magnetic Sponsoring but in reality are very pro-it and actually lead to an affiliate link.
Justin: Well, that was back in the time where everybody was getting high rankings on SEO for essentially negative terms. So, you say, “Don’t buy this,” or, “So-and-so sucks,” or such and such review. That’s back when it was kind of a free for all.
Andrew: So, were you guys teaching them to do it? Were you saying, “Here are your links. Here’s how you can promote these links and make money every time someone follows these links and signs up for one of our courses that teaches them how to grow their multi-level marketing business. By the way, one thing that works really well is saying you hate the product.”
Justin: Actually, we never taught the people to tell their people that they hate us to get us kind of the click bait of yesteryear. We just gave them real world examples of how to promote it.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: Back then, articles were extremely popular and very high traffic.
Andrew: You just showed them what other people did and they took it from there. They got an understanding of what would work.
Justin: Just kind of like what affiliate programs have now, where they give you the affiliate swipes. We gave them all of those various tools that they could use to leverage.
Andrew: I think there are a few people are saying, “Don’t sign up because one thing you’re going to have to do with Magnetic Sponsoring is support Mike Dillard. We like Mike Dillard, but we should be supporting ourselves, not this program.” So, what does that mean? Do you know what they’re referring to?
Justin: I’m not really sure, actually, what they’re referring to there. It could have been we did have some things at some times where people thought that since we were generating so many leads that we were pushing them in our own MLM and they were doing all the effort. But we were very, very strict about they were their leads. Yes, we marketed to them to sell them our products, but they got the commissions for it.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: But we also kept it in line that we didn’t promote an outside opportunity, that you get to keep your own company. So, we’re not going to steal away your leads. So, maybe they’re referring to that.
Andrew: They’re growing their lead base within your system. Your system helps promote your product to their leads, but they get a share of all the sales that come in.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: That’s how it worked.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: So, you’re a marketing guy. We’re about 14 minutes into this interview. Anyone who listens to a marketing guy who’s in my audience is really looking for some kind of incredible marketing idea that you’ve used before that would just blow their mind. Do you have anything like that?
Justin: I’ve got one little trick that works extremely well if you have multiple products. It’s to get people coming back to buy more stuff sooner. So, say you’ve got ten product SKUs in your store. You get somebody to buy your product. Immediately after they purchase, you basically send them a welcome email or a welcome phone call saying, “Thanks for your purchase. Here’s a ten percent off or a $30 off coupon code you can use in the next 30 days or 14 days or whatever it might be to come back and purchase from us again.”
So, you put an expiration on it and then, “Here, you may also like these other products,” and then recommend products to them that they might find of benefit.
Andrew: Do it in the email, not on the webpage after they buy?
Justin: Right. So, after they’ve gone through even the one-click upsell path or anything like that, it’s after that.
Andrew: I see.
Justin: So, it’s like, “Hey, your product has been ordered. Here’s your download access. By the way, here’s the discount coupon to use for future purchases,” and you have 15 days or 30 days or whatever you’ve set it as depending on the product.
Andrew: And how do most people do it? They just have the one-click upsell after the purchase.
Justin: You can still do that. But then if you have additional products, say, this worked extremely well in supplements, for example, so, you bought one supplement. You might have bought several in the upsell path. We’ve used it in luxury leather goods too, coming back and say, “Here’s your discount coupon. Use it. Come back.”
Andrew: I see. Let’s understand how you build this consulting company. You were out doing the business that we talked about. It was called Magnetic Sponsoring, right?
Justin: Uh-huh.
Andrew: And you sold your business back to Mike, your part of the business to Mike?
Justin: Uh-huh.
Andrew: You started a consulting company. It was you and your partner. Who was your partner?
Justin: When I originally started, it was just me.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: We’re really only a couple years old as Conversion Fanatics. So, Manish and I both had separate consulting practices basically doing the same thing.
Andrew: So, let’s get into your part before we get into the merger of the two. What was your original vision for the consulting company?
Justin: Basically what I have now.
Andrew: You just wanted to focus on nothing but conversions.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: At the time, I was focusing on conversion and implementation. So, a lot of people were struggling with the technology side of it, which is a big strong suit of mine, setting up sales funnel, shopping carts, programming all of that. I’m not a programmer, but I can get all of those pieces to talk together, auto-responders and split testing–people know they should split test, but they don’t, for some reason.
Andrew: And you were going to do the split testing for them, not advise them on how to do it, but actually set them up with software. What software did you use when you got started?
Justin: I’ve used all of them. But our go to platform even then and now is Optimizely.
Andrew: Optimizely. I remember when Dan first started that company, he emailed me about being here on Mixergy and I didn’t know how big the business was. I said fine because he had gotten pretty far and I knew him, and then it just freaking took off and it got huge. Now everyone seems to be using Optimizely.
Justin: Yeah. It’s good. We’re working up the ranks in their partnership program now and working on certification and all of that stuff.
Andrew: I had no idea they were even on that path, certification and everything.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: So, how did you get your very first customer?
Justin: Referral.
Andrew: From?
Justin: I went out into my warm network and just asked, said, “Hey, here’s what I’m doing.” I got up to about nine clients. It was just basically me and a couple of outsourced designers.
Andrew: What did you charge for the service?
Justin: At the time, it was $5,000 a month.
Andrew: Okay. And you were really specific on what you did. If they needed brand new web pages, you weren’t going to do it. In fact, I think you used the phrase with our pre-interviewer here at Mixergy “productized service.”
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: So, how specific were you and what were they going to get for the $5,000?
Justin: Well, when I first did it, it was kind of open ended. I came out of the marketing, direct response world where you send an email and you make money, whereas this, it was very much personal one on one. I didn’t know anything about starting an agency. I just knew I could provide this service and alleviate the pain. So, we had some scope creep in there where I was doing a lot more stuff–
Andrew: Like?
Justin: Database migration and customer migration over the different platforms was one of them.
Andrew: What’s an example of customer migration that you did for someone?
Justin: A client at the time was on one CRM shopping cart platform and they basically cut them off. So, they had to move over to another platform. We had basically two weeks to do it.
Andrew: I see. You felt you had to do it because this is a client of yours. The rest of your business can’t be done unless he’s moving his customers over, is that right?
Justin: Yeah. He just didn’t have anybody at the time to really spearhead it. So, I worked with their developers and stuff and actually pushed it. I worked around the clock pretty much for two weeks to get it done.
Andrew: What would you do now if a client came to you with this problem?
Justin: Just say we’ve got to re-advise the proposal and re-propose.
Andrew: And actually do it? Would you still do the migration today?
Justin: Not until we talked about it first and agreed on the terms of it.
Andrew: I see.
Justin: And asked for more money.
Andrew: I see. But you would still do it even though it’s outside the scope of your business.
Justin: Yeah. We do have developers and stuff. We do things on occasion that are a little bit outside of conversions and basic traffic. But it’s usually just to make our jobs easier for the optimization side.
Andrew: I see. So, I hear from a lot of consulting interviewees and course leaders here at Mixergy that you should not allow yourself to do more than what you say you’re doing. You have to stay focused on one topic. But in reality, my hunch is that a lot of them are actually doing a few things that are outside the scope. Is that a good thing or are they making a mistake?
Justin: It’s kind of a double-edged sword. It can be good. It just really depends on the case by case nature. I’m going to do everything I can to get the improvement that I need to get to justify paying us to do what we’re supposed to do. So, if there’s something out of it–once in a while we’ll switch products or add a different product line in for a client and we’ll just kind of let it ride juts because they’re a) a great client or b) it just needs to be done.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: So, to keep the relationship–I’m all about the relationships. I don’t like to burn bridges. I just try to do the best by the client. But I think maybe it could be bad depending on the size. We say on a weekly basis that it’s out of the scope. So, we need to discuss it. Maybe we’ll tack on a few extra hours of work or something on top of that.
Andrew: I see. All right. I should tell everyone at this point why I’m holding up this doll. This is the HostGator–look, HostGator.com–gator. The reason I’ve got this here is they are my sponsor and a few weeks ago, I thought, “You know what? Let’s spice up the commercial.” I got myself a gator hat from Amazon for like $15. I wore it. It looked absolutely ridiculous on me.
I sent a photo of myself to the guy over at HostGator who bought the ads. I said, “Look, I spiced up your ads.” He goes, “Haha… but that’s not really our mascot at all. It doesn’t even have the same color. It doesn’t look right.” He had a good sense of humor about it. A few days later, I opened up my mail and I got this. I got some other paraphernalia from HostGator. I love that company because they have such a good sense of humor, because their gator mascot actually does make their company more memorable. I know now if I’m looking for a hosting company, the gator is what I need to think about. Have you ever used them?
Justin: Yeah. I still do. Our site is hosted on them.
Andrew: It’s amazing how many people I interview who say, “My company is hosted on HostGator.”
Justin: I drive down the freeway here, it’s got the big banners, “Come work for HostGator.” So, I see the gator almost every day.
Andrew: So, one of their new offerings is managed WordPress hosting. This is like the next level up for WordPress hosting. It means that they’re going to make sure that your site runs fast. With WordPress, that’s such a big issue. It means that they’re going to make sure that it’s secure. You guys, if you’ve been watching Mixergy for a few years, you know that there was a time when Mixergy got hacked and we were full of all kinds of Viagra ads and stuff like that and Cialis.
They’re going to make sure that it scales. They’re going to have 24/7, 365 days a year support for you, all at a price that’s, from what I’ve seen and I’ve researched this, it’s like a tenth of the cost of other managed WordPress solutions. Never mind WordPress VIP, I don’t know what they charge. That’s hugely expensive. HostGator is coming in really low price, all of the customer service that you expect from them, all of the great dependable service that you expect from HostGator.
They’re priced so low that usually what they do is they give me a discount code to give my audience so they can keep track of how well I’m doing for them. Their price is so low on managed WordPress hosting that I can even give you. So, I said, “Why would anyone want to put in the Mixergy code when they check out from HostGator?” My guy there said, “Just if they want to show if they support Mixergy. There’s nothing we can do. The prices are too freaking low.”
So, the prices are really low. I hope you say that you heard them on Mixergy, but I don’t really care as long as you get really good service. Go to HostGator.com at the very top, if you want their managed WordPress hosting. It’s WordPress that’s fast, WordPress where you don’t have to do as much as you do if you’re hosting it and managing it on your own. Just go to the top and you’ll see WordPress hosting.
By the way, Justin, if you had to start over right now with nothing but a HostGator WordPress account, what business would you start?
Justin: Same thing I’m doing right now.
Andrew: Consulting?
Justin: Uh-huh.
Andrew: I guess that makes sense because what you need is a simple landing page, WordPress that works. WordPress could do it.
Justin: Yeah. Ours is on WordPress.
Andrew: What’s an easy thing to do to build a consulting company around?
Justin: Well, I mean, pretty much everybody in their brother is in the digital marketing space. It’s usually in your core competency. I’ve been doing this 13 years.
Andrew: I still think that there’s room to do what you do for much smaller clients at a lower price with a lot less work. I think there are newer companies that don’t do any A/B testing, don’t do any optimization. If someone were listening to us right now and saying, “I’m going to go get myself a WordPress page, I’m going to put myself in the consulting business and I’ll offer up a service to smaller businesses, under $1 million a year, where I do their Optimizely implementing, where I adjust some A/B test for them, where I even use LeadPages,” I think clients would need that. I think you can show them measurable results with that.
Justin: You could. It depends on the amount of traffic that they get. If they have a really low volume of traffic, it takes longer to test.
Andrew: Right and to show them the results.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: And I guess that’s why you went after people who are buying ads, right?
Justin: Uh-huh.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: We’re the believers that you control once you’re paying for ads and you’re getting results, you control the process. So, you can throttle it back or scale it up depending on what your needs are. So, we just like to go after advertisers. That means they’re investing in their business and they’re obviously getting results or they wouldn’t be spending over a period of time.
Andrew: One of the first clients that you got at $5,000 a month, do you remember what you did for them? Can you pick one and just illustrate what you did back then by telling me about them?
Justin: I orchestrated basically a product promo for a smaller–it was a fitness or not a fitness, it was a sports training company. I helped them orchestrate, setup all the pages and wrote the basic copy for the landing pages and implemented some tests for a specific email promo that was going to their internal list for a product they just came out with.
Andrew: What kind of product did they come out with?
Justin: It was a video training.
Andrew: And what did you do differently than others would do?
Justin: It’s just speed of implementation.
Andrew: I see. So, you were quickly able to create the landing pages for them?
Justin: Yeah, within days.
Andrew: What was great about your landing page that you’re even now looking back and thinking you’re proud of?
Justin: Just the core elements that I always use. I’m just a firm believer in going after benefit-driven headlines, clear concise call to action, back it up with proof and that’s pretty much the main elements that we look for.
Andrew: That seems pretty common knowledge, though, isn’t it?
Justin: It is.
Andrew: But…?
Justin: But it’s unique to every situation. Each client, each campaign is different and the problem is most people are so busy working in their business and overlooking even the smallest things. They get blinded by being so close to their product that they sometimes overlook the little things that can be through. So, this particular client needed more help with the implementation side and to help drive it out quicker. So, I was able to basically build him a funnel in just days and roll it out. It did pretty well for his internal list.
Andrew: What else was in the funnel to his internal list other than the landing page?
Justin: It was a sales video that he put together. So, we put together the sales presentation, integrated the auto-responder, put together a couple welcome emails from that and then integrated one-click upsells, which he didn’t have before.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: So, just made all of that work and added a one-click upsell in there for the first time in its company history, basically.
Andrew: And did you come up with the product for him to upsell?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: You did.
Justin: Based on his product line. Yeah.
Andrew: I see. You just picked something he already head.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Okay. You told April in the pre-interview one of the first things you did was try to figure out the pain points of potential clients. How did you do that?
Justin: It’s tough. It’s taken us a couple of years to actually figure it out and really narrow down on our target market exactly what it is. It’s a lot of talking with people. When I’m looking at pain points for basically clients, I look at what their customers’ pain points are too. So, that helps me kind of present it to them.
Andrew: How do you do that? How do you understand their customers’ pain?
Justin: Market research. You look at competitive analysis and other sites an things in the marketplace that seemingly are doing pretty well that might do a lot of analysis, figure that out, see what people are searching, some keyword research to kind of figure out where people are going, what they’re doing. You can usually narrow it down. Another level once we’re working with somebody is we’ll often survey their customers to ask them. They’re going to ask you or they’re going to tell you exactly what you want, typically.
Andrew: Let’s look at some of the things that you do in a little more depth. So, let’s suppose that you are working with Mixergy and you wanted to understand what Mixergy’s customers were thinking. How would you do market research on my customers before you started to survey them?
Justin: On yours? So, say we’re already engaged in service?
Andrew: Yeah. And this is before you start sending out a survey to them. I want to understand that first part of what you said.
Justin: Okay. So, we would analyze your analytics, so see exactly where people are falling off, what they’re paying the most attention to. Then we go out competitive analysis, find anybody that might be similar in the space, what exactly they’re doing. Obviously you’re pretty unique in the people and your kind of model. But then we just go out and do the competitive analysis and we look for bottlenecks, low hanging fruit on your site. So, find friction points. Analytics usually tells us that.
Andrew: What’s a friction point?
Justin: Multiple step checkout process, maybe not congruent from ad to landing page, multiple calls to action.
Andrew: And you can just spot that by looking at the process without even looking at the analytics. You’re seeing what the ad looks like, what the landing page looks like, what the checkout process looks like. Is that right?
Justin: Yeah. We can to a point because we kind of have a list of best practices now. So, we kind of know what’s going to move the needle. But we want to back it up with analytics and sometimes we’ll use heat and click map tracking to further analyze where people are paying attention to.
In the case of one company that we were working with, they have generated about 2,500 leads a day in a specific niche. They were trying to push people down one specific path and it wasn’t the path people wanted to go down once we got the heat and click map data. So, once we switched it around, we ran a test to focus on that secondary path and we reduced their bounce rate by over 80 percent.
Andrew: What’s their first path and what was their secondary path?
Justin: One was more towards getting funding and the finance path. The other was more towards the purchase path.
Andrew: Purchase what?
Justin: In this case, it was the auto industry.
Andrew: Oh, I see. So, they were trying to send people down to get your car financed so you could buy it. What customers really wanted was buy the car.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: And the heat maps told you that.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: Exactly where they were going, so we switched it around and reduced the balance rate by 80 percent.
Andrew: So then why partner with someone else if you were doing this yourself and things were going okay?
Justin: I was getting burned out because I was doing everything myself. One of my weaknesses is the systems and processes behind it. So, Manish was really good about that. That’s been his core strength. We had been friends for years. So, we decided to just make it official and play off each other’s strengths and seemingly it worked out pretty well so far.
Andrew: What’s one system that he created that you couldn’t have done on your own that you needed?
Justin: It’s the fulfillment side. We’re actually creating the systems and processes on why we do stuff and when we do it, which is something we’ve never been really good about. I just went out and did it instead of actually documenting how I did it.
Andrew: So, what do you document in?
Justin: What did he document?
Andrew: What’s one thing he documented and then what software and process did you take to document it?
Justin: We just documented it in Google Docs. That’s pretty much where it started.
Andrew: I don’t want to be too basic about this, but why Google Docs?
Justin: It’s just there and it’s simple.
Andrew: I tried a bunch of things and I got really clever with it and the reason that I liked Google Docs for documenting things here internally, like how do we do the pre-interview process, how do we edit, how do we post things. The reason I liked it is because it’s so easy to edit a Google Doc that if someone’s reading my process and they’re not happy with the way I did it or they see a change, they can just hit the delete button and replace what I wrote with something else that works.
Justin: Yeah. That works really well for us on our business development side too. So, we have no multiple hands in the cookie jar and we do a lot of editing and a lot of back and forth. We’re launching a direct mail campaign that’s taken us a couple of months to put together and there’s been a lot of back and forth on it.
Andrew: Within Google Docs?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: So, you use Google Docs to document one of your processes. What’s one of the most important processes that you documented?
Justin: The onboarding processes.
Andrew: For a new client? So, you sign a new client, what happens next?
Justin: Our team gets a brief on exactly what was there. They get a copy of the proposal. We then assign our implementation manager on top of it. Then they get the brief. They get an intro to the client, the key points of contact there and what we have, what we’re going to do and then we schedule a kickoff call. We call it the fast start call.
Andrew: And the document is what shows everyone on the team what they should be doing to get everyone on the team up to speed and to get the kickoff call scheduled and done right.
Justin: Scheduled and what information we need from that. So, it’s the basic process. So, we have a process for pretty much everything.
Andrew: Really?
Justin: Anything on the client fulfillment side. We have a lot of back and forth communication.
Andrew: What’s the structure of one of your documents? I’m spending a lot of time on this because I think it’s important for a lot of companies to structure the work they do. But I’m seeing it’s especially important for consulting companies like yours. In a consulting company, what you’re selling is a service. If there’s no consistency in the service, then there’s no way to predict what the end result is going to be. There’s no way to hire new people to do the work and still get that consistent result, right?
It also keeps you from being a madman who does every single thing the client wants as opposed to being an organized company that says, “Here’s what we can give you. We know its’ going to work out because we have this whole structure and everything is documented and the team knows how to use the documents to guide it.” What does one of your document’s look like if you can describe it?
Justin: They’re actually kind of basic. It’s just kind of a bulleted list. They’re constantly evolving. Every time something changes and we hit a roadblock or a friction point, then we’re going to change it or modify it in some way. And then that gets modified in the document. We might have a list of one, a numbered list of exactly the steps and then sub-lists under it to say, “Here’s what happens first and then if this happens, this is what should happen.”
Andrew: I see.
Justin: So, we try to kind of map it out as best we can. Usually we’ll start with a mind map first and kind of document it that way before we actually put it into a formal document.
Andrew: Because a mind map is better for brainstorming.
Justin: Just to see a visual of what the flow looks like once they come in.
Andrew: One thing I’ve found is that when people do the same thing over and over again, they stop going back to the documentation and they start to come up with new ideas that improve what’s in the document and because they’re not going back in the document, they don’t update it. Do you find that?
Justin: A little bit. Yeah.
Andrew: What do you do about that?
Justin: We do marketing huddles. We do team huddles with our key people every week. We’re a virtual company, so it’s hard for us to be in the same room every day. So, we find those very beneficial. And then we make sure that we change the process. And then just the open communication–since we’re a pretty small team, it seems to work out pretty well. But thankfully my business partner is crazy fanatical about the whole process and documentation.
Andrew: This is Manish Punjabi.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: His wife is no longer in the company, right?
Justin: That was his sister.
Andrew: That was his sister. I see. I just assumed. I don’t see her on the about page anymore.
Justin: No. She has never been with us since we formalized it. That was back–she was doing sales and stuff for him back then.
Andrew: Okay. Before we continue, I want to tell everyone about Toptal. If you guys need a developer to either round out your team or maybe you need even a team of developers to help add to your team or you need part-time or someone to just work on one project, well what you could do is go to a headhunter and hope the headhunter finds the right person. They’re going to charge you an arm and a leg for it and maybe the person is not going to be a good fit. Or you could go to one of the freelancing sites, but that’s really for smaller projects where you don’t care if the developer is going to show up a month later or half a year later.
What happens if you want someone who’s more reliable and you want them now and you need to know that they’re actually going to show up and produce? Well, in that case, I suggest you go to Toptal.com/Mixergy. They have developers that are considered among the top three percent by their peers. Let me show you how they do that on their website.
They’re an incredible company, backed by Andreessen Horowitz. So, if you need a developer, contact them. In fact, they’ve actually asked me, “Andrew, we know some people like to have personal introductions. Would you help make a personal introduction?” Yeah.
If you’re listening to me right now and you need an introduction to somebody at Toptal, someone who will talk to you on the phone, hear your issues, give you advice on who you should hire and then take who you would like to hire, that wish list of yours to their team of developers and find the perfect person to introduce you to, if you want me to set you up with that, just email me, Andrew@Mixergy.com and I will introduce you to someone at Toptal. If you don’t want that kind of handholding, just go to Toptal.com/Mixergy.
If you go there, you’re going to see that they are so eager to get more Mixergy listeners as clients, they want to show you guys how well they do that they’re offering 80 free Toptal developer hours when you pay for 80 hours in addition to a no-risk trial period of up to two weeks and 100 percent satisfaction is what they want, 100 percent satisfaction guaranteed. You will not be billed. If after two weeks you are not 100 percent satisfied, you will not be billed and Toptal will pay the developer for you. That is the way that these people do business.
I’m so happy to have gotten to work with them. Bookmark them. Tell anyone who needs a developer. They’re going to thank you for it. Toptal.com/Mixergy.
Justin, if you had nothing but a developer from Toptal, is there an idea that you would develop, that you want developed?
Justin: Well, I went down the software as a service path a few years ago as a side project and quickly realized I didn’t want to be in the software space.
Andrew: I get that.
Justin: So, I don’t know if I would ever venture into that again.
Andrew: You know what? I totally get it. We always think of customer facing software as the only kind of software we should build. I’ve seen people show me software that they’ve built just to help manage their teams. They couldn’t find the perfect piece of software to help coordinate their team. They said instead of losing money, we’ll just hire a developer, have them build this inside tool for us and boom, that’s done. So, that’s one option for Toptal.
Here’s another thing that I always–always, I’ve only been looking at your site for a little bit, but here’s one thing that I liked about your site. When I leave, there isn’t the standard pop over or pop up or modal pop that tries to get me back. There it is.
There’s this thing that says, “We’re going to help you calculate we here at Conversion Fanatics can get for you. Put in your monthly sales, put in your ad spend and tweak the numbers using these two little dials, these two little sliders,” and then you show us the numbers. You show us what our ROI is, what our monthly gross profit is, how much our profit will increase and so on. That’s all to collect email addresses. That’s such a clever little tool. Did you build that yourself?
Justin: Oh, yeah, we had one of our team members do it.
Andrew: Perfect. That’s the kind of thing. If you can’t find it online and everyone else is using the exact same modal pop, you can go to Toptal and have them develop this.
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: You told April–I keep going back to my notes here–you said, “At first we were going after the wrong clients.”
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: Who was the wrong client for you and how did you find out? It sounds pretty painful.
Justin: At one point we were taking on any and every client that we could possibly get and without sticking to our guns on who exactly we could help, even though we could help them and we did help them. It was for typically a lot less money and a lot more work. So, it ended up being really frustrating and taking away from other clients because our team was working so much on this one. We’ve had to cut ties with a couple because of it.
Andrew: Help me visualize this. Can you give me an example, even if you don’t give me the name of the client? Help me understand what a problem client for you looks like by describing one.
Justin: We ended up getting into that scope creep again where we ended up doing full builds.
Andrew: What did you build for this client?
Justin: Basically funnels. Instead of working on optimizing the existing funnel, they were like, “Okay, we need this new landing page and this.” They were trying to move–even though we were keeping up–it was just so much work that we were building out new funnels and then trying to go back and tweak the other funnels and it just got to be a nightmare.
Andrew: What were you building the funnels in?
Justin: These were a mix of pages from WordPress to LeadPages.
Andrew: I see.
Justin: We tried to cut a little bit to simplify it using LeadPages, even though I’ve seen your Mixergy one, your template on lead pages. But yeah, it just got into way too much work for the money at the time.
Andrew: You guys are using LeadPages for your clients, huh?
Justin: In some cases, yeah.
Andrew: How are you getting clients?
Justin: A lot of effort.
Andrew: What’s the process for getting clients?
Justin: We’re now going to be going through direct mail. That’s going to be a big driver for us. We’ve done some small tests, now we’re being a little bolder with it.
Andrew: What about when you were starting? I know the first few came from your personal network, but at some point you exhaust that. What’s the next step?
Justin: It was just networking, putting up content. I’ve been a handful of podcasts and just going out there networking from working on Quora to LinkedIn–we did a lot. And then we even try outbound cold calling.
Andrew: Did that work for you?
Justin: No, actually, it didn’t.
Andrew: Of all the things that you did try–LinkedIn, Quora, podcasts, what’s worked best?
Justin: Kind of a culmination. We get leads from all of them.
Andrew: It’s just being everywhere.
Justin: Well, it’s being everywhere, but I’m just out there trying to share value. We’re trying to put value into the marketplace to educate people on why they need to–they don’t need to spend more money on advertising to get more revenue out of it. So, we’re really just trying to educate there. So, through our blog and just being on Facebook and networking and referrals from happy clients.
Andrew: There’s got to be one that really stand out. Don’t hold back on me.
Justin: For what? A client?
Andrew: For finding clients. What’s one that’s been especially powerful?
Justin: One tool is we actually hand pick and we do outbound emails.
Andrew: Hand pick and outbound emails. Okay. And what do those outbound emails look like?
Justin: It’s basically a personalized email. It’s a lot of manual labor in it. But we personalize it basically with screenshots of their traffic to screenshots of their landing pages and just a short blurb saying, “Hey, we’ve done this for x-person. Would five minutes be worth your time?”
Andrew: I see. Is it a five-minute call where you pitch them on selling them or are you promoting it as a consulting call?
Justin: Everything we do is on a consultative basis. So, we actually in the last couple months switched to using slide decks. So, we’ll actually go through a full presentation and highlight their sales process. We’ll take screen shots and it takes an hour or so to put together the actual presentation. But we’ll go through and actually show them the value, ask some questions, make sure they understand. So, they can realistically walk away with three to five ideas that can boost their results if they never hired us.
Andrew: If they never hire you. Interesting. So, the first email is, “Here’s what we’re seeing your traffic is doing right now. Here is your landing page. We’ve increased other people’s landing pages. If we have a five-minute conversation, we can show you how to increase yours.”
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: That’s it?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: And how do you find the people that you’re going to email?
Justin: Various tools. We’ve tried a bunch of them, from SalesLoft to Proleads to all sorts of different list sources out there.
Andrew: Let me see, SalesLoft, I’ve never heard of them. This is sales development, prospecting and automation. “Conduct prospecting via social networks and build your own unique prospect for sales development emails, phone calls and other activities.” So, they go to social networks and pull out the people who they think are going to be a good fit for you?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: I’ve never heard of these guys. That’s really interesting.
Justin: It’s basically a search tool. So, you can connect through LinkedIn and it’s based on your connections and different groups and things of people that are ideal. So, if you want to talk to a specific CMO at a specific company, you can realistically find that person.
Andrew: This will help me find the CMO? Wouldn’t LinkedIn do that?
Justin: Yeah, but the personalized contact info. So, it would find the company phone number and everything.
Andrew: Oh wow. Do they do it manually?
Justin: It’s software based.
Andrew: Interesting. And what was the other software that you recommended?
Justin: We’re using Proleads.
Andrew: Proleads.
Justin: Proleads.io. It’s very similar. There’s a handful more that we’re going to test. Pipetop is another one.
Andrew: Okay. What other software do you use for prospecting?
Justin: Pipedrive.
Andrew: I love Pipedrive.
Justin: Pipedrive and Google Apps.
Andrew: Really?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: So, you have a multi-step process for closing customers?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: It’s that defined. That’s what Manish did.
Justin: Yeah. We worked on it. We tried a bunch of stuff. We test. That’s pretty much what we do. Our motto at our company is continuous improvement daily. So, we just try to be better than we were yesterday. Everything just seems to work out from there.
Andrew: What are you going to do differently because of the way you did this interview? How are you going to do the next interview based on your experience here?
Justin: Be a little bit more prepared, probably.
Andrew: I think you are prepared. Are you talking about me? Maybe I should have been more prepared. Maybe I should have asked you who the hell are you and what the hell is this Conversion Fanatics.
Justin: Yeah. I do a bunch of interviews. I did another video podcast or video podcast earlier this week. I didn’t really know what I was getting into when I was getting interviewed here. So, this one he actually had the questions and everything spaced out on what he was going to ask. So, being able to be a little bit more prepared.
Andrew: I’ve got an outline here of what you and April talked about it. But to be honest, a lot of it I don’t think is interesting enough and not deep enough in your process. So, that’s why I’m ripping through some of the things you and April talked about and I’m going in other places too.
Justin: That’s fine.
Andrew: But usually what I have is a clear outline that the guest sees and then I mess it up somehow, some way.
Justin: Yeah. I don’t even know when I booked this, a couple months ago. I just saw it on the calendar this week and I’m like, “Oh, wait a second, I’ve got that interview.” I had to go through my notes and what I talked about with April.
Andrew: You told April that you were struggling at the time to grow your team. That’s one of the big challenges. You guys were six people when you and April talked about four or five months ago, right?
Justin: I think it was just a couple of months ago.
Andrew: Okay. How many people are you up to now?
Justin: We’re at ten with a couple flex people.
Andrew: Okay. How did you find people who are good at this?
Justin: Went back to the warm network again. There are flex people we have leveraged, a couple of past people plus we’ve used oDesk on occasion, but it’s usually been through our warm networks. So, we have a new advertising manager that helps with client campaigns and audits and things like that that we just hired that Manish used several years ago that we came back and brought him back on.
Andrew: All right. I’m looking to see if there’s anything else in the notes. I know what. Here’s one. I should have asked you about this earlier. This is interesting to me. She asked you, April, in the pre-interview if you could teach a class to other entrepreneurs on anything, what topic would you pick? And you said success mindset, just that. Why?
Justin: It’s foundation. You have to have–you’re a different type of person to see an idea through all the pain and struggles.
Andrew: Do you remember a time when you weren’t, where your mindset wasn’t clear, wasn’t strong. You do? When was that?
Justin: Late 2010.
Andrew: What happened then?
Justin: I had a client at the time threaten to sue me over nothing that I did. It was just what he does.
Andrew: What happened to your mindset because of that client?
Justin: I started second guessing my ability to market and it sucked the wind out of my sails for over a year.
Andrew: What was going on in your head as your mind was messing with you?
Justin: It’s just like I couldn’t get anything to work at the time. I tried several different things and to start different projects and I just didn’t have it in me at the time.
Andrew: What weren’t you able to do for people?
Justin: It wasn’t even that, it was just starting–I just couldn’t get the revenue flowing and the offers converting and I was second guessing everything I had ever known for the previous 8+ years.
Andrew: Do you think in pictures or words?
Justin: Both. Mostly pictures, but I read a lot.
Andrew: When your mind was messing with you back in 2010, what are some of the visions that you had? What did it project in your head?
Justin: Just losing it all, like failure, everything. It was just like losing it all.
Andrew: You just said, “This is all going to go away because I’ve got this lawsuit and because I can’t make any of these sales work out for me.”
Justin: Yeah. So, if worked out.
Andrew: What did you do to get your head back in the game?
Justin: A lot of meditation, a lot of affirmations, a lot of reading personal development and then switch flipped. I had gained a bunch of weight in that time. I just decided to work on me and then it just started clicking again.
Andrew: Break that down–meditation, what’s your meditation practice?
Justin: I do a lot of guided meditation, various solution from–Digipill is one of my favorite apps I use.
Andrew: And they guide you through it. You put your earphones on, they say sit down for ten minutes and I’ll tell you what, what do they say?
Justin: It depends on what you’re going after. It could be success, procrastination, weight loss, pretty much anything in between. But those are probably my three main ones.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: And then it’s anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes and I usually do it before I go to bed.
Andrew: You get to every day? How often do you get to it?
Justin: Probably three days a week is what I was doing then. I probably do it once a week now.
Andrew: And the affirmations, what does that look like?
Justin: Just going through various, right in the morning to set the stage for my day, exactly what my day is going to be like. What you have is already in you. Different quotes, I’ll read different things. Often times I’ll even pick up a book off the book shelf and I’ll read ten pages to get the ideas flowing and just really think about what’s going to go down.
Andrew: How’d you get to a phrase like, “What you have is already in you?”
Justin: Tony Robbins.
Andrew: And why does that speak to you?
Justin: Because it’s true to me. If it’s going to happen, it’s up to me and I already have what it takes. That always stuck out with me.
Andrew: I have a friend who has a similar phrase that he repeats to himself. It’s because he keeps looking outside for one more piece of research before doing something–one more software, one more person he could call. Does that sound familiar to you?
Justin: Yeah. There was a time when I always looking for the next best thing, constantly looking for something different or an easy way or something instead of just rolling up my sleeves and doing it. That was the biggest thing. We’re going to just do this and make it happen.
Andrew: And when you do your affirmations, there’s a list that you’ve pre-written and you read it every day?
Justin: It varies. Sometimes I’ll just go on the different quote apps. I have a couple of free quote apps. I don’t even know where my phone is at. I have a couple free quote apps that I use and I’ll just browse through a few of them to see. Books are a big relief for me because I wasn’t always the best reader and being diligent at it. But since October, I’ve probably read 40+ books.
Andrew: Really? Since October… We’re talking about in the last year?
Justin: Yeah.
Andrew: What got you to read so many books?
Justin: I started working on speed reading. I started working on my eye focus. I have a very short attention span. I’m very ADD entrepreneur style. So, I can’t sit and read cover to cover. It just doesn’t work for me. So, I just learned various speed reading techniques so I can get through books faster and pull out the golden nuggets.
Andrew: What’s the one that works for you for speed reading?
Justin: Acceleread is the app that I use, my phone. It just trains the eyes, eye movement.
Andrew: And then you use that training on the Kindle app and other reading material.
Justin: Yeah. I read physical books.
Andrew: Okay.
Justin: So, I go through a process where I just kind of go through a table of contents, kind of see what the book is like, what can I expect. I’ll browse through for key points that jump out, maybe images, pictures, I’ll earmark them. And they’ll I go back and read the intro chapter, the introduction to get a basis of it. And then I’ll go through and I’ll read key points of each chapter that I’ve earmarked before.
Andrew: What’s the best book you’ve read so far this year?
Justin: “Playing to Win” by A.G. Lafley.
Andrew: Why? Why do you like it?
Justin: CEO of Procter & Gamble. Just talks about all the struggles behind all the missed opportunities and everything they had at Procter & Gamble and how they go about their methodology to basically be the biggest marketing company on the planet.
Andrew: Yeah. I never read that one. Let’s see, Kindle, “Playing to Win.” I do find that I read faster when I read physical books. But the Kindle is always with me, on my phone, on the Kindle device, on my iPad. So, I end up reading there more often.
Justin: I’m releasing a book.
Andrew: I saw that on the bottom of your site. I wanted to get it, but it said coming soon.
Justin: I’ll send you the Kindle option.
Andrew: I’d love it. What’s the book about?
Justin: Optimization.
Andrew: And it’s written by you, not your cofounder I noticed, right? You and another writer, from what I remember.
Justin: It’s me and then Manish had some contribution in there through the company and the split tests and helping there. But then we had the national bestselling author of “Ask,” Ryan Levesque.
Andrew: Yeah, Ryan Levesque. I read his book.
Justin: He wrote the forward for it.
Andrew: Oh, I see. As I’m looking at the small image I’m thinking, “Why did I not think Manish is in the book?” It’s because your name is there and the with was so small and I just assumed it was someone else, like a ghostwriter. But no, it’s with Manish.
Justin: With that 3D image it kind of messed things up.
Andrew: Most people don’t care to look at it and I see Ryan right at the top. Cool. You know what? I think this interview went well. I’m glad we dipped into this whole mindset stuff. I think that was unexpectedly really interesting and helpful.
Justin: Yeah. It’s important. It’s a foundation to everything. If you can’t believe you can do it–I saw it firsthand that I physically couldn’t do it because my mind wasn’t there.
Andrew: I wrote a–frankly it was just a Word doc–with what was going on in my head and how I cleared it up when I was struggling. I’m going to put it up for anyone who’s listening to us on TrueMind.com/TheDoc. Let me just… TrueMind.com/TheDoc. I’ll just send everyone a redirect to a Google Doc after we’re done with this. You can read it. You can leave some comments if you want to give me feedback on it.
But I took some time this summer to organize my thoughts and think about what’s worked for me and while I was sitting there, I think I was in Napa, I just sat and wrote this out. I’d love to share it with other people. Since you talked about yours, this is a really in depth story of what happened to my head when I was losing it, losing my focus, this one example of what happened to me.
Cool. I’ll put it up for everyone to read. Your website is ConversionFanatics.com, right?
Justin: That’s it.
Andrew: Anything you’d like people to do while they’re there? Probably that modal pop I mentioned is worth seeing, but who knows it will be on there. You guys A/B test, probably.
Justin: Yeah. We’re A/B testing it. But it’s actually up on Marketing-ROI-Calculator, I think, or something. We’ve actually got a page for it.
Andrew: Marketing-ROI.com/Calculator?
Justin: No, it’s ConversionFanatics.com/Marketing-ROI-Calculator, I think, something like that.
Andrew: Actually, I think it’s–oh yeah, there it is. Oh, and that’s just the calculator itself. Got it. I thought you were offering other people the code to put it on their sites. No, sign up for Toptal and have them set it up for you if you want, or something like it. Don’t copy it. I do thank Toptal for sponsoring Mixergy. They are at Toptal.com/Mixergy if you guys need a developer.
And HostGator is always my sponsor. Go to HostGator and sign up for managed WordPress hosting. Frankly, compare them to any other managed WordPress hosting site. I have no doubt that you are going to find they have the best prices and talk to other HostGator clients and they will tell you HostGator has incredible service.
Go test me out. You don’t have to take my word for it. If you like them, then go to HostGator.com and sign up. I’d love it if you threw in Mixergy as the referral, but as long as you get good results, I don’t care if you give me credit.
Justin, thanks for doing this interview.
Justin: Thanks for having me, Andrew. I appreciate it.
Andrew: Same here. Thank you all for being a part of it. Bye, everyone.
